Talk:Peter Schiff

Not an Economist

Peter Schiff holds a bachelor's degree in Finance & Accounting from University of California Berkley.

Peter Schiff is a business person, stock broker, and television commentator-- this article refers to him as an Economist. This is a falsehood.

His "field" is securities trading, not financial economics. I am told he does not even use analytics in his business.

He uses pre-conceived slogans with economic lingo and acts like the dollar will implode and the US is going under, going so far as to about US manufacturing ability despite all available data, simply so he can sell more foreign securities and gold. It's a great propaganda game he has going on.

In short: Peter Schiff is a fraud, and so is this article — Preceding

unsigned comment added by 75.130.100.98 (talk) 04:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I concur with much of the foregoing. Moreover edits such as correcting the areas of Schiff's study from "financial economics" to "finance and accounting" have repeatedly been undone by apparent promoters of Schiff, despite the fact that Schiff's own website lists "finance and accounting." There's nothing to stop a stockbroker with a business degree from presenting his views on any subject including economics, but misstating/revising his credentials is not the mission of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.19.17 (talk) 16:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit in Economic Predictions Section

I edited out the phrase "a prediction that five years later has not proven correct" as this is an unsupported editor's opinion. That was my edit. It's not opinion at all. The dollar has not lost much of its value in 2007-2012. It just hasn't happened. The inflation rate 2007-2012 has been the lowest of any 5-year period in the past 2 decades. The reference "3" is only to Schiff's book, not to an authoritative source of the dollar's value five years after the book was written. In fact, a simple inflation calculator online will show the last five years the dollar has lost nearly 11 percent of its purchasing value! 184.7.109.84 (talk) 16:45, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I also edited the following price by removing the very last unsupported (provably false) sentence.

"On December 31, 2006 in a telecast debate on Fox News, Schiff forecast that "what's going to happen in 2007" is that "real estate prices are going to come crashing back down to Earth". This proved to be incorrect, as prices continued to rise throughout 2007."

In fact, every source I checked shows inflation adjusted real estate prices reversing their rise in mid 2006. It appears that Schiff was not so much making a prediction as stating what had already begun to happen. My sources:

• http://www.jparsons.net/housingbubble/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_housing_bubble#Causes
• http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/North-America/United-States/Price-History

184.7.109.84 (talk) 17:19, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree, and can I add another source to yours? The US housing bubble peaked at the end of 2005:

Reinhart, Carmen M.; Rogoff, Kenneth S. (2009). This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly. New Jersey: Princeton University Press. p. 160 (see table 10.8). ISBN 978-0-691-14216-6.

Skirtsy ^{My talkEdits} 22:07, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

There are many promoters of Schiff's persona as economic pundit and forecaster here. They have used the Wiki format to create seemingly objective endorsements of Schiff which can be used to enhance his business. Most of their source citations turn out to be Schiff PR or merely press or video reports of Schiff's unsubstantiated statements and opinions.24.151.19.17 (talk) 20:01, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I see you morons have removed my comments about the US Fiat currency being measured against other Fiat currency instead of goods and gold/silver. Why don't you IDIOTS learn how economics really works and that the mainstream indicators are bullshit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.151.16.14 (talk) 21:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Criticism

An anonymous editor has claimed that there is not enough criticism of Schiff in this article, and has therefore attempted to add more via weasel words and unsourced commentary. He has not (yet) discussed his proposed changes here. I invite him to add reliable sources to the "criticism" section I've created. As a broader point, however, he should be aware that Wikipedia BLP policy is to describe the views of the subject in detail and to allow him/her to respond to all notable critiques. This can result in the biography appearing to be overly supportive--but only if you do not fully understand Wikipedia rules. After all, the Noam Chomsky article isn't endorsing its subject, either.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

TIMES: What is your relationship to Schiff? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.19.17 (talk) 03:12, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

You were already blatantly disregarding Wikipedia policy for BLPs as well as NPOV. But this takes the cake. You are supposed to assume good faith. Making false accusations or personal attacks is not acceptable practice here. Before making further edits, I would suggest reviewing Wikipedia rules.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 11:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:MOS says it prefers a more neutral section heading like "Reception" rather than criticism. This allows for text on both praise, popularity and criticism. Looking at the current criticism section I see it is sourced but it should be summarized to about half its current length. Furthermore the criticisms seem to be about investment performance, not specifically about Schiff himself. We should be careful to present this material in a neutral way.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Your point is well taken. I didn't write that criticism, I just combined it in one section. I intend to make suitable changes.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Done.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 08:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

TIMES: I did assume good faith. I asked you a question. Assuming good faith doesn't mean that impartial readers won't call you out and correct the recurring promotional bias to your edits. What is your relationship to Schiff? Of course you need not answer if that would be problematic for you. It would be helpful for you to cite more objective sources than Schiff's own marketing materials and promotional videos for this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.19.17 (talk) 16:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I never cited any promotional materials for anything. Apparently, you're blaming me for writing the entire article, whereas I only started editing it due to the incoherent rants I caught you inserting numerous times. As it stands, the fact that the article cites Schiff's website for information on his company is not my doing, nor is it unusual. Give me one example of me citing a promotional source. You can't. I haven't been adding sources at all. I'm just trimming and summarizing text. You should probably be blocked from editing this page under WP:NOTHERE.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you just make bad faith accusations against two other editors in the above section, and call Schiff a fraud as if your opinion matters? Do you not understand Wikipedia policy?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:38, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not the one who called Mr. Schiff a "fraud." My own opinion of him is irrelevant anyway. I do suspect that some of the editors here are promoters of Mr. Schiff, but the article gradually seems to be taking shape in a good form. 24.151.19.17 (talk) 17:21, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Infobox format

The anonymous editor who frequents this page wants to remove the economist infobox, or at least vandalize it, on the grounds that "Schiff is not an economist". In contrast to regulated professions such as engineering, law or medicine, there is not a legally-required educational requirement or license for economists. Many prominent economists come from a background in mathematics, business, political science, law, sociology, or history. Economic analysis may be applied throughout society, as in business, finance, health care, and government, but also to such diverse subjects as crime, education, the family, law, politics, religion, social institutions, war, and science. It's not hard to find a few sources that call Schiff an economist. Because this has been here a long time, it will have to be discussed before an anonymous editor removes or alters it.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

--REPLY: Please, you have no grounds for falsely attributing bad faith intention to my edit of the infobox.24.151.19.17 (talk) 20:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

--To apply economic principles is not to be an economist any more than to apply various laws of physics would make one a physicist.

--He's a remarkable guy and a successful businessman, just not an economist. Why don't you create a different template if you're uncomfortable using this infobox for a securities dealer. The problem is with the template not with Mr. Schiff or the fact that he is a securities dealer.

--If you wish to create an article on Mr. Schiff that describes him as an economist, I think that article would look very different from the current one, which says he's a businessman and broker who voices his opinions in various media. I think such a page would do a disservice to Mr. Schiff, but it would be possible to write such a page.

"Because this has been here a long time, it will have to be discussed before an anonymous editor removes or alters it."(talk) 17:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

--Irrelevant to the truth and maybe self-serving as well, I'm new here.24.151.19.17 (talk) 20:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.24.151.19.17 (talk) 20:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Your edits are in bad faith because you disagree with the existence of the infobox, and instead of requesting that it be changed or removed, you edit warred to add a non-existant "school". You have done this to make a point, not because your edits are valid.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:47, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

REPLY: Your inference/accusation as to my motivation in editing this infobox is false and strikes me as rude and irrelevant to our joint task of improving this page. As I stated previously Schiff is a Securities Dealer, not an Economist. His own website describes him as a businessman and securities broker, not an economist. The infobox is more informative and gives a more accurate description of Schiff with his principal identity, Securities Broker, as the title. Any mismatch is due to the fact that some previous editor chose the inappropriate "economist" template for the infobox. I was unable to find any infobox template for businessman, broker, or anything closer to Schiff's principal occupation and achievements but if you know of one, I urge you to propose it. Mr. Schiff is a leader in the hard money investment business, and a man of remarkable achievement in that sphere, however he is not an economist, nor does he label himself as such.24.151.19.17 (talk) 21:59, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It's not an inference, like your claim that I work for Schiff. It's an unambiguous fact that you were making a ridiculous edit to illustrate your contention that the infobox is inappropriate, in violation of WP:POINT. I'm frankly tired of dealing with your disruptive behavior. Everything you've posted here is original research. You aren't supposed to make huge changes without discussion. You'll just keep being reverted.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:35, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

REPLY: I did not claim that you work for Schiff. I can't know that, just as you can not know my motivation for my edits, which I believe overall have immeasurably improved this article about a prominent securities and gold dealer. My removal of the header on the infobox was intended to get us to a neutral place where neither of our versions is shown, in order to stop the reversions while discussion as to a satisfactory compromise or consensus can be reached. I have no point of view on Mr. Schiff. My personal point of view as an editor with a doctorate in Economics and a sympathetic student of many of the Austrians, is that I do not like to see the term misapplied where it is inappropriate. Let's find a solution either with a more appropriate infobox or other constructive compromise. Thanks.24.151.19.17 (talk) 01:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

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>Note that on the page for Lew Rockwell, CEO of the von Mises Institute, and a much greater figure than Mr. Schiff in Austrian circles, the "infobox person" is used, NOT infobox economist.24.151.19.17 (talk) 13:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

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>Another alternative for Mr. Schiff's infobox would be "infobox libertarian" This strikes me as a good choice, since his libertarian principles underlie both his business approach and his public speaking message. What do you think of that?24.151.19.17 (talk) 16:18, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I might accept that, as long as you have a source in which he calls himself a libertarian.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:32, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

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>Do you have a source in which Mr. Schiff calls himself an Economist?

    http://www.europac.net/news/it_safe_resume_ignoring_prophets_doom_right
    http://www.europac.net/news/peter_schiff_how_he_would_fix_america
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ncLTFoTFa824.151.19.17 (talk) 03:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

No, but I have already provided sources that call him one.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

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> Please consider the links I gave, two from the Euro Pacific site. I have never seen a widely recognized economist refer to Mr. Schiff as an economist. He doesn't refer to himself as an economist.24.151.19.17 (talk) 20:37, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Secondary sources would take precedent over a primary source ie how he characterizes himself on his website etc.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:54, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

---> Keithbob: How do you feel about using the "libertarian" infobox? Several of us objected to the "economist" format. A user, Kevin4262 proposed the "person" box as a compromise. This was reverted by "Times" and I believe that under the circumstances the "libertarian" box allows us to characterize Mr. Schiff's beliefs and mission in an accurate way, with references to the originators of his views, without incorrectly characterizing him as an "economist" which he is not. I have not seen any acknowledged economist of any school of thought refer to Mr. Schiff as an economist. He has no academic training in Economics, has done no original research in the field, has published no articles in peer refereed journals, and he does not call himself an economist. Can we put this to rest with the "Libertarian" box, filled in with Mr. Schiff's influences, etc?24.151.108.103 (talk) 02:07, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with any of the boxes but only following discussion and consensus rather than by edit warring. All you have to do is provide sources for his political orientation and influences.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:23, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

---

>In addition to the citations above, Newsweek: http://www.newsweekinternational.com/newsweek/2009/09/01/the-failure-caucus.html

    As to his influences, they are already listed in the current infobox, so the names and citations would be the same.
    I am also fine with the person infobox per Kevin's edit, but I believe the Libertarian version is more descriptive and will convey more information.24.151.108.103 (talk) 04:02, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

My impression of Schiff is that he is known primarily as a investment advisor/expert or "economist" (loosely defined) and even his political work is in that context. So the current infobox seems relevant to me. Also I would say that this economist issue has been discussed here before and for me it is very simple: we just follow the WP guidelines and reflect what reliable sources say. If a preponderance of sources call him an economist then we reflect that in the article regardless of our personal analysis of what the academic definition of an economist is. If only a few sources refer to him as an economist then we feature that term less prominently and so on.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:30, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Keithbob: Two thoughts regarding your message: First, an investment advisor or expert is not the same thing as an economist. Schiff is unquestionably considered an investment advisor by self-description and widespread references of others. Second, I have not found highly-regarded, established sources that refer to him as an economist. Apparently Newsweek and sources cited on Euro Pacific's website do refer to him as a Libertarian. For what it's worth I believe that all "Austrian Economists" are Libertarians but not all Libertarians are Economists (of any school.)Ipse 23:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

--TIME TO RESOLVE THIS: I believe that the time has come to try to find an acceptable resolution to the disagreement about the infobox format. Having reviewed all the material on this and archived talk pages, I would prefer "libertarian" but would also accept Kevin's compromise of "person." I do not think that "economist" is supported by the facts or credible cited sources. Would those who care to participate in this matter please now voice their views? I would like to try to reach consensus before the 31st. Thank you.24.151.25.89 (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Additional citations calling Mr. Schiff a libertarian

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2009/09/failure_caucus.html
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/capital-commerce/2009/02/21/peter-schiff-how-he-would-fix-america
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/magazine/economic-doomsday-predictions.html
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-10-15/markets/30001066_1_ben-bernanke-peter-schiff-big-government
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2008/11/how-far-would-p.html

Kevin and Times, and any others -- in light of this evidence and discussion, please state whether you have any objection to using the "libertarian" infobox? Thank you.24.151.25.89 (talk) 17:05, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Austrian Economists. To help you understand that Mr. Schiff is not one of these...

See this Wikipedia article on Austrian Economists and their contributions to research theory and scholarly discourse. Although Mr. Schiff is a commentator who refers to and agrees with the work of some of the Austrians, he is not an Economist. By studying these examples of actual Austrian Economists, you may be better able to understand why the point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School

Thank you24.151.19.17 (talk) 13:00, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Allegation of Edit warring by anonymous, IP-identified, user

You have failed to cite any actual sources to back up your claim that Schiff is not an economist or a true Austrian, you have removed countless citations for no apparent reason, and you have demonstrated an inability to comprehend Wikipedia policy by stating that his biography cannot mention his religion or ethnic background. All of your changes have gone against consensus and have contradicted reliable sources. Your edits are based entirely on your subjective opinion and your own original research. You cannot expect to edit war your way to victory. Do not make further radical changes without discussion here. You will be reported if you continue to make such changes without consensus.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

REPLY TO TIME CHANGE: Hi. Not true at all. I wrote a paragraph on the subject of why Mr. Schiff is not to be considered an economist -- no original research or theory, no defended academic papers or dissertation, no publications in peer-reviewed media, among others. Please read those on my, your, and kevin's talk pages as well as here. Also in reviewing the archived talk for this article I see that many other economists, such as myself, have raised the same concern in the past long before me. Incidentally, why do you call me 'anonymous?' my ip is on everything I write, just as is your pseudonym. Is there something I don't understand about the logging here? As previously noted, it was not I but "kevin" who changed the template to infobox person and now that it is changed back it is at least for now economist again. Thanks.24.151.19.17 (talk) 17:21, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Kevin did that to compromise with you. You don't have an account and frequently fail to sign your comments. I don't want you to write "paragraphs" explaining what you think. I want you to cite sources that describe Schiff as not being an Austrian or an economist. If you're the only one to have an objection, you're new to Wikipedia and focus mainly on one article, and you write long paragraphs of original text to justify edit warring; you will get nowhere. Sorry.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:34, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

REPLY TO TIMECHANGE: As I just indicated above, I am the first or only one to state that Mr. Schiff is not an economist. Please review the 3-pages of talk for this article, including the 2 archived pages. Moreover I also stated above that Mr. Schiff does not meet the criteria that I and other economists regularly use to determine whether to refer to an individual as an "economist" and Mr. Schiff does not fulfill any of those tests. I did not compel Kevin to make that change. He adopted a suggestion for compromise that I stated. If you are unhappy with that I suggest you direct your concern to Kevin. Back to the matter at hand: Why do you believe that Mr. Schiff is an economist and can you cite other recognized economists about whom there is no disagreement who would concur with your judgment. That is a useful test, peer acceptance. Having known and studied with many prominent Austrian economists I can tell you that despite broad and profound disagreements, none of us would say that Friedman, Samuelson, Fisher, or others, were "not economists" However I don't know of any trained and peer-published economist of any school who would call even a gifted commentator such as Mr. Schiff an "economist" merely because of his interest in and limited study of a variety of economic subjects. Please review the comments that I and others have made on this matter in the three pages of archived talk here. Thank you.

That's all just original research. It is all totally irrelevant.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

REPLY TO TIMECHANGE: Not true, there are standards by which one is called an economist and before you state that it is not relevant, I and the administration of Wikipedia expect you to read the voluminous carefully considered discussion on the topic. Please read all such discussion in the archive and any external sources you may need to consult. Or you could email acknowledged leaders of Austrian Economic thought such as Mario Rizzo at NYU and ask them to help you to understand the criteria for calling someone "economist." Thanks.24.151.19.17 (talk) 18:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow, you have absolutely no understanding of Wikipedia policy. The fact that your arguments were discussed before and ultimately rejected does not help your case. It's not up to me to email Austrian economists of your choosing. It's up to you to explain your changes and create a consensus. You can't just say "I know Austrians who dislike him", "I'm an economist, trust me", and so on. That is called original research and has no validity here.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:30, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

TO TIMECHANGE: You include much unproductive personal derogation in your talk and comments. I did not state that I do not like Mr. Schiff. I have posted at length on the objective standards by which people are called an "economist" and why Mr. Schiff does not fit the bill. I am not aware that these arguments were rejected previously. Somebody just ignored them, put in a later edit after those who disagree were no longer working on or viewing the page. Your unsupported inference as to the history of the text on this article does not change the fact that Mr. Schiff is not considered an economist by the vast majority of economists of any school, Austrian or otherwise.Thank you.24.151.19.17 (talk) 20:34, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't just take your word for it. Wikipedia's motto is "verifiability, not truth". In contrast to regulated professions such as engineering, law or medicine, there is not a legally-required educational requirement or license for economists. Many prominent economists come from a background in mathematics, business, political science, law, sociology, or history. Economic analysis may be applied throughout society, as in business, finance, health care, and government, but also to such diverse subjects as crime, education, the family, law, politics, religion, social institutions, war, and science. It's not hard to find a few sources that call Schiff an economist. Because this has been here a long time, it will have to be discussed before an new, unregistered editor removes it.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

TIMECHANGE: you said "Many prominent economists come from a background in mathematics, business, political science, law, sociology, or history." Many do, but they also meet some or all of the criteria I listed for what constitutes an economist -- original research, theoretical works, defense of thesis before jury of acknowledged economists, publications in peer-reviewed journals. These are similar to the tests applied in most academic fields. We are not talking about a professional license or legal permit. It is not my opinion, it is the consensus of all world economists. Mr. Schiff doesn't call himself an economist. He is an economic commentator, investment advisor, financial strategist and more but he is not an economist by any objective test you can describe. Clearly you do not understand this, whereas I coming from an academic background and in fact being an Austrian who studied and collaborated with many on the "Austrians" list here, am very familiar with the issue. Nonetheless I have looked back at the history of this article and I can tell you that box was not chosen by consensus. It was chosen by accident by an uninformed editor. I have no current intention of reverting it again because I am more focused on continuing to get the article in even better shape. I have made many constructive improvements here and the infobox is something that I view as more of a formal defect than a critical error of content at this point.24.151.19.17 (talk) 21:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

KEVIN: See your talk page. The language in the first sentence was set before I came here. It's settled consensus so I undid your edit. Also please refrain from angry language and threats. Thanks.24.151.19.17 (talk) 22:47, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Page protection

I've now protected this article as this edit war is getting close to getting out of hand, as indeed are the discussions on this talk page.

I strongly recommend that you open this discussion up to the wider community, via a request for comment or third opinion. GedUK  12:13, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

TO Ged UK: Actually, despite the hostility and suspicion directed at me, I think the article is in good shape now and is far better than when I arrived here a short time ago, largely due to tightening up sourcing and language and several reorganizations of the content.24.151.19.17 (talk) 13:54, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest an RfC since this economist issue keeps coming up again and again.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Although it has been raised before, I do think that there are new definitions and additional reputable citations to consider now, so I would ask whether after reviewing the complete file anyone still believes that Mr. Schiff is best characterized as an economist. If there is still reasoned disagreement then there would be no alternative but to invite additional review.24.151.25.89 (talk) 21:33, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

At the moment, I'm not opposed to the IP's stated positions regarding the infobox. Obviously, further comments are welcome.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:19, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

To acknowledge your thoughtful cooperation, Time, I have now created an ID and will no longer be the IP guy. Are the others also OK with the Libertarian box? If so, I will make the change and transfer Mr. Schiff's influences and the other data now shown in the "economist" box. Thanks.SPECIFICO (talk) 13:45, 1 September 2012 (UTC)