Talk:Prince George, Duke of Kent

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 76.105.145.143 (talk) at 22:34, 21 December 2012 (→‎Response). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

First comments

"On 29 November 1934, the Duke of Kent married Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, the daughter of Prince Nicholas of Greece and Denmark and a great niece of Queen Alexandra, at Westminster Abbey. It was the last marriage between a son of a British Sovereign and a member of a foreign royal house to date." - But Lieutenant Mountbatten was born Prince of Greece and Denmark, and a member of a foreign royal house too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.233.109 (talk • contribs) 23:28, 8 March 2005

You answered your own question: "It was the last marriage between a son of a British Sovereign and a member of a foreign royal house to date." The Duke of Edinburgh wasn't the son of a British sovereign, and neither, for that matter, is the present Queen; she's the DAUGHTER of a British sovereign. Morhange 02:43, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
For a little more information, Prince Philip became a British citizen before his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. So he was born a son of a foreign royal house, he lost that designation when he became a British citizen. Hope that helps.Prsgoddess187 15:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rudolf Hess

For discussion of claims surrounding Hess's flight to Scotland, see Talk:Rudolf Hess.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.47.84 (talk • contribs) 14 March 2005


I have removed the following unsubstantiated gossip from the main page:

An unproven claim has been made that British Intelligence assassinated Prince George. One possible reason is given by author Charles Higham, in the second, revised edition of his book The Duchess of Windsor: The Secret Life, as serious concern over the Duke of Kent's lack of discretion and his political dealings with Nazi leadership, with negotiations towards a separate peace, to allow Germany to concentrate on its war with the Soviet Union in eastern Europe. Higham writes that the Special Operations Executive (SOE), worried that the Duke would talk about these matters once he left the British Isles, tampered with the plane before its takeoff, ensuring its crash soon afterward, with the deaths of all but one of the passengers.[1] It should be noted that in another of his books, Errol Flynn: The Untold Story,[2] Higham made similar claims about Hollywood screen actor Errol Flynn, saying that he was a bisexual Nazi spy. These claims were readily debunked by Tony Thomas in his book Errol Flynn: The Spy Who Never Was.[3]

Authors Lynn Picknett, Clive Prince and Stephen Prior in their books Double Standards: The Rudolf Hess Cover-up and War of the Windsors claim that the Duke of Kent's plane stopped to pick up Rudolf Hess, and that it was part of a peace plan that would have ousted Churchill from power[4]—thus leaving the unstated implication that if the Duke was assassinated by British Intelligence, it must have been 'agreed' at the level of Winston Churchill. "The German Ambassador to Portugal, Baron von Hoyningen-Huene, reported to von Ribbentrop that according to the British community in Lisbon, the flying boat was sabotaged in order to kill Kent because he was in favour of peace with Germany".[5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.250.184.63 (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image

The picture of George is supposedly in the public domain because its author died at least 100 years ago. However, even if the author died immediately after taking the picture, this would make George at the time of the picture aged 4 years. This cannot be correct. Johnleemk | Talk 08:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We are getting close to two years since this issue came up, yet the same picture with the same explanation remains. Should it be taken down? -Rrius (talk) 21:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

article needs to be reviewed

I think much of this article makes POV assertions as though they were fact: for example 'the family, who are famously philistine'. Using the verb 'to be' (are) in this sentence instead of a conditional or some kind of hedge such as 'are often regarded as' is inappropriate for an encycopaedia. Other phrases such as 'Given George V's famously dull brain' are not only too colloquial for an encyclopaedia but would be difficult to justify from an empirical point of view. I'm going to ask that this article's listing be reviewed. Daviddariusbijan 21:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

GA failed

Reasons given :

  • LEAD not long enough and not reflecting the articles depth.
  • POV sense to many sections.
  • Not enough references plus not enough variety in ref.

Lincher 17:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is excessive reliance by a previous author or authors on "War of the Windsors: A Century of Unconstitutional Monarchy", which is a cpntroversial source to put it mildly. It is npot sufficient authority for the more contentious statements made in this entry.60.234.48.118 03:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Possible plagiarism?

Much of the content on this Wiki page is very similar or identical to content at http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/royal_nazis.html#George. I don't know which is the original, or if both are taken from someone else.

That page is a copy of this. Proteus (Talk) 11:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article states that Kiki jumped out of the window, but the Channel 4 documentary clearly states that she took an overdose. I wonder which is true?Luckyles 07:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral point of view/reliability

Much of the body of this article relies on Picknett, Prince, Prior & Brydon, which is not a guarantee of dependability. There should be alternative sources provided for the more unlikely/controversial claims, or they should be described as claims made in that book.Ncox 03:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kiki Preston

"... although much evidence has been shown to suggest that he had her pushed, possibly though his position in the masonic lodge..."

Since Preston died four years after the Duke's fatal crash, this doesn't sound very convincing to me. Drella Melmoth 02:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that wasn't referring to the Duke, but to her husband at the time, as being a possible pusher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.121.153.20 (talk) 12:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was just reading the article with no prior knowledge of any of the people involved, and it definitely reads (unless one specifically cross-checks dates) as though Kent was implicated in her death. It should be rephrased - it was odd enough for me to come to the talk page to check it out. 86.40.108.159 (talk) 17:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Death?

No cause of death given? 71.194.163.223 (talk) 20:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Read the article. Plane crash. † DBD 02:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

queens lost uncle

> Much of this history was outlined in the documentary film The Queen's Lost Uncle mentioned above. The Duke's bisexuality and drug addictions were explored in "African Nights", a 2004 play written by American playwright Jeffrey Corrick.

Where above? Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hoax ?

"It was once proposed that the Duke be made King of Poland, in a move to restore the Polish monarchy much as the Greek monarchy had been restored using imported Royals. In August 1937, the Duke and his wife visited Poland and were well-received. However, due to the invasion of Poland in World War II, the plan was called off.


Supposedly from Picknett, Prince, Prior & Brydon, pp. 142–143.


Seems a hoax or gossip, the monarchists in Poland were a marginal group and had very different candidates for throne. I will post this on Polish noticeboard for comment.--Molobo (talk) 10:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not in 1939 but during Second World War, not king od Poland but monarchic Central European Federation. Proposed by Sikorski and Herman Lieberman, not monarchists, rejected by Benes. The sources I found though aren't very reliable and I will continue to look for more serious ones.--Molobo (talk) 15:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Styles & Titles

In the article it is written: "12 October 1934 – 25 August 1942: His Royal Highness The Duke of Kent".

Shouldn't this be: "12 October 1934 – 25 August 1942: His Royal Highness Prince George, The Duke of Kent"? 121.73.7.84 (talk) 10:50, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, the Dukedom of Kent is a royal dukedom. George was "HRH The Duke of Kent". His son is now "HRH The Duke of Kent" and the Duke of York is "HRH The Duke of York". Of course, George never ceased to be "HRH The Prince George", but "The Prince George" was only used as part of his full title. Surtsicna (talk) 11:34, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So because it is a royal dukedom it outranks the prince title? So the title of prince is omitted as is the the case with other lesser titles? 121.73.7.84 (talk) 08:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King of the United Kingdom?

Apparently in 1936, during the abdication crisis, the Duke of Kent was supposed to be made King, and Prince Albert had relinquished his claim. However, Albert changed his mind, and took the throne, however he still kept the name "George VI"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.152.213 (talk) 10:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see your source for this was some speculation in the Daily Mail (posted here). So it's bound to be true, then, isn't it?Swanny18 (talk) 15:46, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cause of fatal plane crash

One theory is that he was drunk at the controls of that plane, having pulled rank over the pilot.

As his rank was only honorary, the pilot refused at first to hand over the controls, and a radio operator on the ground was able to overhear parts of this argument. The operator was sworn to silence, but revealed the details many years later.

Any verdict on the truth of this one? 86.176.5.37 (talk) 23:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Duke's body wss found to be chained to an attache case full of 100 Kroner notes so it's unlikely he'd have been able to convince anyone that he could operate the controls. The idea put forward that the Duke wss at the controls has the familiar smell of government disinformation. What was it that Churchill said about history being kind to him because he was going to write it?

I'm surprised that the crash isn't given more attention: 15 passengers set off on the flight; 15 dead bodies were discovered yet 24 hours' later, the tail gunner turned up alive and well. If, as the main article claims, the flight's destination was Newfoundland, why was the Duke taking currency in Kroner there? At the time, a 100 Kroner note would have been the equivalent of a weeks' wage. In the countries where it was legal tender, of course. At the time, Iceland was occupied by the Allies and Denmark/Norway occupied by Germany and none of them were using their own currency.

The survivor was sworn to secrecy. The enquiry blamed the pilot but didn't reveal who the extra passenger was or how he boarded the aeroplane or the missing 25 minutes' when a passenger could, in theory, have been picked up. The real object of the "secret mission" wasn't revealed.

Contrary to the claim in the article about "bad weather", it was a clear day. Whoever wrote the entry about his death has not carried out any in-depth research.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.16.160.232 (talk) 06:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

B is for Bisexual

I am responding here to the edit that removed the categories LGBT People from England and LGBT Royalty. It seems clear and well-documented that the George, Duke of Kent was bisexual. Since the B in LGBT stands for bisexual, these categories seem apropos. There is, as far as I know, no requirement of a degree of bisexuality. Since there are so many documented instances, I think it would be disingenuous not to acknowledge the Prince's proclivities.Argos'Dad 19:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not "well-documented" at all. I'd suggest working on the documentation. There's some fuzzy wording with a citation to the Letters of Noel Coward that cites no page (which I've now fixed to say what the editor of Coward's letters actually says). Same for the "some suggestion" citation of Lucy Moore's work. "reportedly blackmailed" with no citation at all. The most specific bits cite Picknett, Prince, Prior & Brydon's War of the Windsors, which IMHO is not an acceptable source. The lead author is Lynn Picknett, "a writer, researcher, and lecturer on the paranormal, the occult, and historical and religious mysteries." Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 14:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Adding sexual orientation category to this biography may be a WP:CAT/R#Sexuality violation

We need reliable sources for category claims. It may well be that such sources are indeed available and you can list them in the article - but if not, then who is saying that these people fit the bill? Just deciding that you think they fit the description is Original Research - and that's not allowed here. I need to see a few reliable little blue number in each categorization that links to a reference document that can be examined to confirm Basic Academic rigour

Most people that are listed in the misleading LGBT categorization can also be connected with the following:
-Heteroflexibility -is a form of a sexual orientation or situational sexual behavior characterized by minimal homosexual activity despite a primarily heterosexual sexual :orientation that is considered to distinguish it from bisexuality.
-Pansexual- A person who is fluid in sexual orientation and/or gender or sex identity.
-Polyamory- is the practice of having multiple open, honest love relationships.
-Affectional orientation - To holders of this view, one's orientation is defined by whom one is predisposed to fall in love with, whether or not one desires that person sexually
-MSM- are male persons who engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex, regardless of how they identify themselves; many men choose not to (or cannot for other reasons) accept sexual identities of homosexual or bisexual.
-Situational sexual behaviour is sexual behavior of a kind that is different from that which the person normally exhibits, due to a social environment that in :some way permits, encourages, or compels those acts.
Many people change their sexual behavior depending on the situation or at different points in their life.[6] For example, men and women in a university may engage in bisexual activities, but only in that environment. Experimentation of this sort is more common among adolescents (or just after), both male and female. Some colloquialisms for this trend include "heteroflexible",[7] "BUG" (Bisexual Until Graduation), or "LUG" (Lesbian Until Graduation).[8]
Sexual orientation
A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states, "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time".[9] "There . . . [was, as of 1995,] essentially no research on the longitudinal stability of sexual orientation over the adult life span. . . . [I]t [was] . . . still an unanswered question whether . . . [the] measure [of "the complex components of sexual orientation as differentiated from other aspects of sexual identity at one point in time"] will predict future behavior or orientation. Certainly, it [was] . . . not a good predictor of past behavior and self-identity, given the developmental process common to most gay men and lesbians (i.e., denial of homosexual interests and heterosexual experimentation prior to the coming-out process)."[10]
Kinsey scale
Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale,[11] attempts to describe a person's sexual history or episodes of his or her sexual activity at a given time. Ituses a scale from 0, meaning exclusively heterosexual, to 6, meaning exclusively homosexual.
The Sources?
Picknett, Lynn, Prince, Clive, Prior, Stephen & Brydon, Robert (2002). War of the Windsors: A Century of Unconstitutional Monarchy
Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince? You have to be kidding me? They have no scholarly qualifications or authority whatsoever to be used as sources. (Picknett, Lynn, Prince, Clive, Prior, Stephen & Brydon, Robert (2002). War of the Windsors: A Century of Unconstitutional Monarchy)
What does the WP article say:
-Both before and after his marriage, Prince George had a string of affairs with both men and women, from socialites to Hollywood celebrities.
-the latter part of the 1920s – and reportedly was blackmailed by a male prostitute to whom he wrote intimate letters.
-'that he had an affair with Noël Coward,[12] which Coward's long-term boyfriend, Graham Payn, denied.[13]
-There is some suggestion that the duke had an affair with Indira Raje, the Maharani of Cooch Behar (1892–1968), in the late 1920s, according to British historian Lucy Moore.[14]

References

  1. ^ The Duchess of Windsor: The Secret Life, second, revised edition, by Charles Higham, 2005.
  2. ^ [1]
  3. ^ [2]
  4. ^ Pickett, Prince and Prior Double Standards: The Rudolf Hess Cover-up, Time-Warner books (2002), pp. 427–435
  5. ^ Pickett, Prince and Prior, The War of the Windsors, Mainstream (2002), p. 187
  6. ^ Rosario, M., Schrimshaw, E., Hunter, J., & Braun, L. (2006, February). Sexual identity development among lesbian, gay, and bisexual youths: Consistency and change over time. Journal of Sex Research, 43(1), 46–58. Retrieved February 8, 2011.
  7. ^ Thompson, E.M.; Morgan, E.M. (2008). ""Mostly straight" young women: Variations in sexual behavior and identity development". Developmental Psychology. 44 (1): 15–21. doi:10.1037/0012-1649.44.1.15. PMID 18194001.
  8. ^ See for instance "Campus Lesbians Step Into Unfamiliar Light" New York Times, June 5, 1993
  9. ^ "ARQ2: Question A2 – Sexual Orientation". Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. Retrieved 2007-08-28.
  10. ^ Gonsiorek, John C., Randall L Sell, & James D. Weinrich, Definition and Measurement of Sexual Orientation (feature), in Suicide & Life – Threatening Behavior (N.Y.: Guilford (ISSN 03630234)), vol. 25 (prob Suppl), 1995, p. 40 or 40 ff. (prob. pp. 40–51) ((ProQuest (ProQuest document ID 7736731) (Text Only)) http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=7736731&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=3&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=PQD&TS=1269113734&clientId=4273 (Full Text), as accessed Mar. 20, 2010 (alternative document URL http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?did=7736731&sid=1&Fmt=3&clientId=4273&RQT=309&VName=PQD)) (prob. also in PsycINFO) (abstract <http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&fuseaction=showUIDAbstract&uid=1996-16078-001>, as accessed Mar. 17, 2010, or http://doi.apa.org/getuid.cfm?uid=1996-16078-001).
  11. ^ "Kinsey's Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating :Scale". The Kinsey Institute. Retrieved 8 September 2011.
  12. ^ Barry Day, ed., "The Letters of Noël Coward," (NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 2007), 691
  13. ^ Brandreth, Gyles (2004). Philip and Elizabeth: Portrait of a Marriage. London: Century. ISBN 0-7126-6103-4, p. ??
  14. ^ Moore, Lucy, "Maharanis," Viking, 2004., p. ??
User: Pgarret (talk) 11:38, 12 September 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Response

Though I agree with your ultimate point that the LGBT royalty category is nor warranted, you do yourself little credit by ranting. (1) The category is what it is. The fact that someone can be labelled or identified in other ways is beside the point. (2) BLP = biographies of living persons. The man is dead. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 01:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Its going back in. Look at the bottom of this page -- LGBT studies. --76.105.145.143 (talk) 22:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Further

WP:CAT/R#Sexuality For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate. For example, while some sources have claimed that William Shakespeare was gay or bisexual, there is not a sufficient consensus among scholars to support categorizing him as such. Similarly, a living person who is caught in a gay prostitution scandal, but continues to assert their heterosexuality, can not be categorized as gay. Categories that make allegations about sexuality – such as "closeted homosexuals" or "people suspected to be gay" – are not acceptable under any circumstances. If such a category is created, it should be immediately depopulated and deleted. Note that as similar categories of this type have actually been attempted in the past, they may be speedily deleted (as a G4) and do not require another debate at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion. User: Pgarret (talk) 01:49, 12 September 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Prince_George,_Duke_of_Kent&oldid=529180206"