Talk:Trans woman

Contradicts the articles "woman" and "female"

(This issue is closely related to the issue raised in the previous section.)

The intro paragraph says that a "trans woman" is a type of woman. That article in turn says that women are female. That article in turn defines female as, well, the common biological definition. But trans women are not female according to that definition, leading to an internal contradiction. Wikipedia could change its definition of "female" from the biological definition (which would be very strange and need some major sourcing I guess), or change the article "woman" to not define women as female people (again quite strange as that's the definition you'll find in any dictionary, encyclopedia, and from any person you ask on the street), or clarify in this article that the issue of whether "trans women" are or aren't actually women is a point of political debate.

As it stands, Wikipedia simply contradicts itself / implicitly makes the false claim that trans women have female sex. TaylanUB (talk) 14:09, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

The intro for woman includes that the term is also used to refer to a person's gender identity. Does that not resolve the contradiction? JB525 (talk) 14:36, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I just noticed that part. I guess it could solve the contradition, though it's kind of unclear what it means to say. A wording like "some people may also be considered women because of their gender identity" would be clearer, though that's a change to that article and I'll discuss it there. As far as this article goes, it may be useful to mention in the intro that this alternative definition of woman applies, because if one simply follows the initial parts of the intros one would be led to believe that trans women are female. :-) TaylanUB (talk) 14:51, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Also: it may be better not to state that trans women are women, but that they are considered to be women by some people, based on gender identity or social presentation. (Also see: the recommendation I just made in the talk page of the Woman article.) TaylanUB (talk) 15:09, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

It seems the woman article isn't going to be changed. But there was some agreement during the relevant discussion that the current intro of that article doesn't say that trans women are a type of woman. In line with this, the current intro should be changed so as not to imply that trans women are female or otherwise confuse readers. TaylanUB (talk) 16:40, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Here's a few suggestions. The parenthesis mentioning alternative spellings that exists in the original is removed for brevity; it would be added back if one of these is adopted.

A trans woman is a person who is not female but professes a female gender identity.

A trans woman is a person who identifies as a woman, without being female.

A trans woman is a person who is not female but is accepted as a woman by some members of society because of her professed gender identity or social presentation.

A trans woman is a person who is accepted as a woman by some members of society because of her professed gender identity or social presentation, despite not being female.

A trans woman is a person who is not female but is accepted as a woman by some members of society.

A trans woman is a person who is accepted as a woman by some members of society, despite not being female.

Just say "A trans woman is a person who identifies as a woman but who was assigned male at birth." That's totally neutral, it doesn't say that she is or isn't a woman in some objective sense, it just says accurately that she identifies as a woman. All the other attempts above try to assert that she is not a woman compared to the current version that says she is a woman. My suggestion is neutral. It avoids the problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.113.110 (talk) 18:21, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

"assigned" is not neutral, and on any less touchy subject, would be considered a weasel word. It's a persuasive spin word. "A trans woman is a person who identifies as a woman but who was born biologically not female." would be accurate and neutral. 172.76.140.54 (talk) 07:24, 9 October 2017 (UTC) DD

That's all I've got for now. Note how there's three basic variations, each with a pair of sub-variants that put the "not female" part first, and last, respectively. (I thought it may be more kind to put that at the end so as not to emphasize it first, so added such a sub-variant to all basic variants.) I personally like the first variant for its simplicity, though it may not represent all trans women, as I believe some don't define their trans identity on the notion of gender identity. The third option is an attempt at fixing that, but maybe it's too long? The fifth option is a different simplistic approach that I just came up with; not sure how good. Feel free to recommend more. TaylanUB (talk) 16:57, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Notice: I've just noticed that this page is "semi-protected" rather than fully protected (I'm a relative Wikipedia noob...) so I can just edit the article myself after all. Still, as I've started the discussion, I'll wait a bit if there's any feedback before I make a change, so there isn't too much back-and-forth editing if somebody disagrees with my choice. TaylanUB (talk) 19:40, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Please realize how rude it is to say trans women are not female. It uses the point of view that transgenderism is just playing make believe. Georgia guy (talk) 20:53, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

  Why should it be considered “rude” to point out the hard, scientific truth?  Why should any sane person feel compelled to play along with an insane falsehood, and to treat that falsehood as truth, on the basis that adhering to the truth would be considered “rude&rdqquo;?  As a matter of hard, scientific fact, a “trans woman” is male, and is not, in any meaningful way, female.  No amount of chemical or surgical mutilation can change this, and neither can any amount of politically-correct shaming and intimidation aimed at those who prefer to give greater credence to hard science than to the insane delusions of those who are mentally-defective. — Bob Blaylock (talk) 21:34, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Bob, your comments contradict all recent medical, scientific and legal scholarship. Do you have 21st century citations to back up your claims, or are they all anally sourced? Newimpartial (talk) 21:54, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Please see the article female. It's a biological classification, and trans women by definition don't fall under it. Why is it be rude to point this out? TaylanUB (talk) 17:31, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

You need to understand gender identity. It's important to avoid looking at transgenderism the easy way. Please do research to understand exactly what it is; it's a serious birth condition. The statement that trans women are not biologically female, taken literally, implies that transgenderism doesn't exist biologically. Georgia guy (talk) 17:51, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Do you have 1) any reliable sources for the claim that all or most of transgender women and men share (group wise; one for trans women one for trans men) an inborn biological condition that invariably (without the effect of society) leads to the development of their transgender identity, and 2) any reliable sources offering a definition of female and male that includes said pair of inborn conditions in those definitions? Because from what I can tell, there is neither a scientific conclusion on the cause of transgender identity, nor would it be automatically included in the definition of "female" and "male" if it did, as these are so far defined through genetics, reproductive anatomy and not for instance any aspect of a person's neurology. TaylanUB (talk) 19:43, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Somebody besides me and TaylanUB, please reveal your opinions on this discussion. Georgia guy (talk) 19:46, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

This is becoming WP:TENDENTIOUS. We have WP:OR about one person's views on gender, sex, and the intersection thereof. I have little interest in engaging. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:59, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

(de-indent) Apparently the female article is pretty much unsourced, which I only notice now. It's not difficult to at least find online dictionary sources for the given definition though. (I'd dig up an encyclopedia or biology textbook, but I'm in Germany so won't be able to find English sources easily.) As a bare minimum, I just added a citation to the initial definition of female, using the online version of the Oxford dictionary. So, given there are verifiable definitions of "female" that exclude trans women, and assuming there are none that include them, I think it should be safe to state that trans women aren't female? TaylanUB (talk) 21:37, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

You have not demonstrated those assumptions are reasonable. Moreover, we are not a dictionary (WP:NOTDICTIONARY). We don't define or discuss topics based on the OED. Additionally, the term female is contested more generally; some argue it should be used only in terms of biological sex, but common parlance and other sources use it interchangeably with woman and to refer to gender. (See Sex-gender distinction) Provide some sources for your broad statements please. I can tell you that the most recent social science literature doesn't discuss trans women in terms of "biologically male but gender as a woman" but rather as an assigned-male at birth person who is a woman. The focus now is about sex assignment and transgender people are those who do not identify with that assigned gender/sex. ([1], [2], [3], [4]) EvergreenFir (talk) 00:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

"Assigned" ? Nature and chromosomes assigned a penis to the individual. There is such a thing as biological sex. This article should not taking a position that confuses biological sex with psychologically identified gender. 172.76.140.54 (talk) 07:24, 9 October 2017 (UTC) DD

Well, that's the most nonsensical argument I've seen yet on this page (and there have been a few). If nature (let's say, in the form of an attacking hyena) unassigned a penis to an individual, would their sex have changed? If a congenital condition didn't assign them one in the first place, are they necessarily not male? Anatomical features do not necessarily correspond to a person's sex or gender, and the distinction you're drawing between "biological sex" and "psychologically identified gender" (got a reliable source for that term, btw?) is not nearly as clear-cut as you might think it is.

Look, I get that some of what you're reading in this article and elsewhere may be new and confusing; there's a learning curve involved, and old misconceptions die hard. My own understanding of the topic of gender has evolved significantly since my "knowledge" about it was first challenged in a university course many years ago. It would be really helpful if people wouldn't keep showing up here presenting nuggets of received wisdom and proclaiming them to be irrefutably true. I agree with EvergreenFir; this is becomimg tendentious. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 08:58, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Milestones section

The section Milestones in transgender activism and visibility has some issues.

First, the relevance of the section to the article: there are other articles where this section as currently constituted might fit better, such as at the Transgender article, or, since every subsection in this section currently concerns U.S. people and events, perhaps History of transgender people in the United States. Or as some of them concern the wider LGBT and not just trans* people, perhaps at LGBT history in the United States.

With a section title change, some of this material could be kept Since this is the Trans woman article, if it were something like "Milestones in activism and visibility of trans women" would be relevant and on-topic for the article, although I find that wording rather awkward, and hopefully something better could be found. We could keep the stuff about Christine Jorgensen, mention the crucial role transwomen played at Stonewall. The sections on Pride, and Minnesota discrimination laws are not specifically about transwomen, and would fit better in a "Milestones" section in a Transgender article.

In addition, all of the five subsections are extensively covered in other articles, so all that would be needed here, is a brief summary section, with the use of Wikilinks or {{Main}} template links to the principal articles concerned. Mathglot (talk) 20:44, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Adding for the record: these edits appear to be related to classwork being performed in connection with a college class; see Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/Loyola Marymount University/Gender, Race, and Sexuality in Contemporary Society Sections 4 and 5 (Spring 2017) for details. Mathglot (talk) 01:26, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I've recast the list as a definition list for now, rather than keep a whole series of short subsections, which have main articles elsewhere. Let's see how this works. Also, the items in the list are kind of arbitrary. Mathglot (talk) 23:23, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

No activity on this section in many months. I've removed the former Milestones section from the article and copied it here:

Copy of the "Milestones" section from version 824779914 of the article.

Milestones 1930 – Lili Elbe In Germany in 1930, Elbe underwent the first known sexual reassignment surgery (SRS). 1952 – Christine Jorgensen Jorgensen, a former G.I., was the first American to have SRS that was widely publicized. Her treatment and surgery took place in Denmark. 1969 – Stonewall riots A series of riots following the police raid of the Stonewall Inn, a gay night club in New York City on the morning of June 28, 1969. The riots lasted for three days. The Stonewall riots are widely considered to be the event that sparked the gay liberation movement. 1970 – Pride Parade A major event in the LGBT movement, and was inspired by the Stonewall Riots. The first parade was organized by the Chicago Gay Liberation and took place on June 27, 1970 in Chicago. In the following few days, other cities including San Francisco, Boston, Hollywood and New York had marches of their own. 1975 – first U.S. gender identity legislation Minneapolis became the first city in the United States to ban discrimination based on gender identity in 1975. In addition, Minnesota became first state to ban discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation in 1993, based on the Human Rights Act. 1977 – Renée Richards U.S. tennis player who played as a male in the 1970s, underwent SRS in 1975, and returned to the circuit playing as a woman after a landmark court case in 1977. 1998 – Transgender Day of Remembrance A date memorializing individuals killed in transphobic acts of violence. Transgender Day of Remembrance was started by transgender activist Gwendolyn Ann Smith in 1999 after the murder of transgender woman Rita Hester on November 28, 1998. The day is celebrated annually on November 20, as part of Transgender Awareness Week. This was one of the first major social movements to promote transgender visibility. References

Please propose any changes here, but it looks to me that this might work better at Transgender history, if anywhere. Mathglot (talk) 11:16, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Opening sentence

I'm sure this a contentious topic but I don't see how the phrase "assigned male" can possibly be NPOV enough to make it into the first sentence of the article. Male is a sex. People are born male as a matter of (NPOV) fact. Trans women were born male. Assigned is clearly a loaded term and in any case only really works with masculinity/manhood, not male-ness. 79.79.252.177 (talk) 19:23, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

The article's wording is consistent with that of reliable sources. You offer no sources for any of the claims you make. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 19:55, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello I would like to help with this

I am a transwoman who is currently going thru transition to female (full surgery). I would love to be able to add my knowledge and experience to this. I'm one of many who only identify as trans until I have SRS surgery then I will go as cis female. I am also pansexual and polysexual. I can speak to these as well as per my experience and I will also research grounded knowledge and sources so that any and all information I add to this or any other pages pertaining to this subject matter will be accurate and founded in true and accurate science and accountings. Please allow me this (I will also be make sure my grammar is proper) I am a math and science geek. Jessica Hart (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Jessica Hart, welcome to Wikipedia! I wish you all the best in your transition, and look forward to your contributions here. Naturally you are free to edit articles of your choice. One note of caution, however: while each editor's background informs her/his participation, Wikipedia's policies and guidelines prevail. In particular, please familiarize yourself with WP:RS. Regardless of what you may know from personal experience, every edit must be supported by a reliable and verifiable source. As for grammar, I think you'll find our editorial community forgiving and helpful. We all enjoy polishing each other's writing, with the goal to make Wikipedia both informative and readable. If you understand that this is a collective and collaborative project, you'll fit right in. KalHolmann (talk) 16:43, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Jessica Hart, in addition to what KalHolmann stated, do see WP:MEDRS when it comes to sourcing medical content. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:05, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

I totally agree and understand, I am currently looking through tutorials of how to edit. I wasn't trying to post my opinion I am strictly a factual and evidence based girl. I want to be on this topic because it is close to home and I have been recording the steps needed to go through transition. Due to the fact there isn't a reliable source on the matter to be honest. I want to help future trans ppl if I can. Everything I contribute will be backed by true and medical documentation when applicable, and with reputable sources when published works are not available. I won't be working on this until I have learned the way to edit and HTML code like everyone else. I'm very thorough and methodical when I attempt anything. Thank you so much for your kind words. Jessica Hart (talk) 18:20, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Welcome, Jessica. Agree with previous replies, and wanted to add one more bit of advice: this is a difficult topic area for a new editor to gain their footing. Certain topic areas at WP are considered contentious and have special rules pertaining to article changes, and any article related to gender is firmly in that category. Any changes you make here will be scrutinized much more carefully, than would changes to Medieval basket-weaving, and almost anything you say will run up against some editors who disagree, and who won't hesitate to tell you so, or to simply undo your edits. You might consider starting off with some edits in another topic area you enjoy (you don't have to have any special knowledge of something to contribute), and see how that goes, first. If you're determined to contribute to this article, then please step carefully, read WP:ACDS, follow the guidelines on verifiability, neutral PoV, and reliable sources (including MEDRS), and consider discussing your changes here on the the talk page first and making an edit request, before adding them to the article directly. Hope this helps, and welcome! Mathglot (talk) 02:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Influential trans women

This section partially duplicates material at the longer list contained in the article List of trans women (currently a redirect to List of transgender people). There's also the problem of who merits inclusion here under the rubric "Influential". Perhaps one could simply change the section title to "Notable transwomen" and use the notability standard, which seems to be what the section is doing now, as everyone currently in the list is blue-linked. Perhaps there should be a merge of this section to the List article. Mathglot (talk) 02:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

No response, so I've changed the section title to "Notable trans women". Still wondering what people think about a merge to the List article. Mathglot (talk) 11:24, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

This article is messy and needs tweaking

Can someone please fix this? 2001:569:7671:F100:1C5E:CEE0:2255:5A1E (talk) 14:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Certainly, I'd be happy to. What exactly would you like to see changed? Mathglot (talk) 06:06, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Not a neutral article

How about some discussion of the chromosome status of the overwhelming majority of trans women? Or is too offensive to point such things out! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.175.179.143 (talk) 13:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Does any peer-reviewed research exist on the chromosone status of Trans women? I am not aware of any. Newimpartial (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

I believe it's fairly well known that transwomen are born male and that current technology does not change chromosomes or the reproductive system of the person. Medically, they could be seen as landing between male and female, a bit like intersex people. Currently, the article begins by stating that they are women, which would imply that they are female. The same problem exists in the trans man page. Wikipedia is flatly contradicting itself.

How about: A trans woman is a person assigned male at birth, who professes a female gender identity. Taylan (talk) 20:16, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

How is that related to what OP asked and not just rehashing the same issue presented on DRN? EvergreenFir (talk) 20:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I seem to have missed Taylan's reply to my comment, which did not respond to my actual point. I was asking, for example, whether trans women were more likely to be xxy or xyy or intersex xx people rather than xy? Is there any actual data? To assume that Trans women represent the same range of chromosomes as cis men because they are born (or assigned) "male" seems to me to be begging the question. We are in a historical period where lay people assert chromosomes as a defining characteristic (and elevated substitute for anatomy) without looking at the evidence about actual chromosomes. Newimpartial (talk) 01:49, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Removed a section

In the sexual orientation section, I removed the unsourced NPOV paragraph, as well as the quote, the citation was based on Deirdre's memoir which is not NPOV, and of questionable value, or relevance, also whoever wrote it in didn't actually cite that it was Deirdre's memoir, I had to visit the archived citation, which seems like a sketchy way of getting around just putting in an opinion. Also, personally I think that the overview of trans terminology is irrelevant to trans women specifically, and probably should be removed, as it belongs in a page about trans terminology, or trans people in general, but I won't remove anything that is legitimately sourced, unless there is conscious. ShimonChai (talk) 08:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Edit: I removed a few other things that weren't related specifically to trans women, a sentence about trans men, and a few paragraphs that were unsourced in the terminology section, as they have nothing to do with trans women specifically. Finally, I removed a conclusion sentence in the "transwomen" definition under the terminology section. Furthermore, regarding future changes it would be nice to see this page actually go more in depth on MTF transitioning rather than just focusing on social issues relating to MTF women. ShimonChai (talk) 19:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Lead section, one more time

This talk page contains numerous former discussions about the wording stating trans women are women, but none of those discussions seem to have been fruitful. Ultimately the lead section remained in direct contradiction with the Wikipedia pages woman and female and supported a specific political position in a contemporary debate.

I've been a bit bolder this time and went forth to change its wording to be more neutral. If you see any problem with the wording I've switched to, please try to explain clearly and in detail so we can have a fruitful discussion about it and settle with a wording that's neutral, non-contradicting, and palatable to people on either side of the debate. Taylan (talk) 14:33, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

TaylanUB, do you really think that trans women are not women?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:57, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes. However, the personal opinions of Wikipedia editors are supposed to be irrelevant, no? Taylan (talk) 20:28, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, you are violating that principle, since your opinions are showing in your edits. Also, per BRD, please don't edit ear after your B and during the Day phase. To do so is both unbecoming and against policy. Newimpartial (talk) 23:07, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

No, but you're violating WP:AGF by assuming that I want the article to represent my opinion rather than a neutral position. Taylan (talk) 12:44, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I read your edits, thought they reflected a POV but didn't say anything about it, then commented when you disclosed your POV. That procedure is well within AGF, and might even be helpful since you seem blind to the ways your intended "neutral" language is not actually neutral (which has been a problem for other editors in previous rounds of this discussion). Newimpartial (talk) 13:07, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Please explain how "AMAB person who identifies as a woman" is not neutral. Taylan (talk) 20:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Typically other Wikipedia articles are not suitable sources for wikipedia, though I do see that the definition even on wikipedia the woman article does include trans women. Rab V (talk) 19:07, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I assume you're referring to the last sentence of the lead of the woman article. It says that with regard to gender, woman may refer to a transwoman. I.e. it's provided as an alternative definition, which is fine. If the lead section of this article will be using that definition, it would correspondingly need to make that clear. For example: "a trans woman is a person who is a woman in terms of gender self-identification although they were assigned male at birth." (Not a sentence I would actually propose to use in the article, as it's awkward.) Taylan (talk) 20:43, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

To me "A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a woman who was assigned male at birth" is far more neutral than "A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a person who was assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman". The latter comes across as 'they think they are women but aren't really", which could be viewed as discriminatory. --John B123 (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

TaylanUB, there is a whole discussion in Woman about how the term, as a gender, covers people who are assigned female gender but identify as male. I have no idea why editors arrive at "Trans woman" and "Trans man" - which are clearly articles about gender identities - and try to impose chromosomally- or anotomically-determined sex definitions on them. That represents literally the worst kind of POV OR. Newimpartial (talk) 23:11, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

That is irrelevant to my point. The definition of "woman" that covers trans women is an alternative one belonging to an ideological position. Taylan (talk) 12:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

My suggestion, Taylan, would be that the reason that you are having so much difficulty discussing this topic is because you see the gender identity definition of "woman" as "alternative" to the one based on anatomy and/or chromosomes. This position of yours is not at all irrelevant, since it determines what you see as "neutral" and what you see as "ideological". I dare say that the perspective from which, in an article about a gender identity, the relevant definition of woman is as a gender identity is the mainstream position in this context, while the position that identity language should be dictated from anatomy and/or chromosomes is FRINGE in 2018, and if reflected in this article, should not be present in the Lede but in another section like "Exclusion of Trans women from acceptance as women" which could cover restroom laws, etc. Newimpartial (talk) 13:01, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

The definition of "woman" pro-transgender movement editors use is clearly an alternative one to the main one, as seen on the woman page and on most English dictionaries. The idea that transwomen are not literally women is far from fringe, as most socially conservative people and also many socially liberal people, especially feminists, see it as a rather ludicrous notion. Currently, dictionaries even include transwomen under their definition of "man" since "woman" and "man" are mainly defined in reference to biology. I think your deeply held ideological beliefs might be clouding your judgment here. But all of that aside, let me reiterate: none of the citations from what I can see support the current wording in the article. Taylan (talk) 20:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

First of all, the wording in the article lede is supported directly by the eighth source (last time I looked), and follows correctly the WP procedure of providing detail and evidence in the article and summarizing in the led (rather than edit warring in the Lede as you have repeatedly chosen to do).

Second, from an examination of your contribution to other topics it seems that you understand the distinction between gender and biological sex. Your repeated attempts to edit this article -which explicitly concerns a gender identity- so that it conforms your personal opinions about the relationship between gender and anatomy is inexplicable to me, but on any event falls within the realm of POV, whereas the article should be based on sources.

It is increasingly true that in Canada, the UK, the US and other countries a minority of Trans women are legally recognized as Women and a larger set of Trans women are socially recognized as Women. That closure of the RfC on MOS: GENDERID, no matter how "ludicrous" it seems to you, is binding and was intended to end misgendering and deadnaming in WP articles; your repeated edits do, in fact, communicate your conviction that Trans women are not women and therefore violate GENDERID in both spirit and letter. Newimpartial (talk) 22:00, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: You seem to be confused on several points. Firstly, the common definitions of "woman" and "man" are based on sex, not gender, as seen in most English dictionaries; they explicitly refer to the terms "female" and "male" which in turn tend to be defined in terms of reproductive function. As such, any ideas you have about my supposed belief in a relationship between gender and anatomy is gravely mistaken. If you are so interested in my personal opinions, allow me to give a short summary (I realize this is not a forum): women and men are female and male humans respectively (sex), who are oppressively forced into feminine and masculine social roles (gender). The idea that "woman" and "man" are social constructs is merely the post-modernist phrasing of this same idea, usually just making it more difficult to understand and leading people astray into philosophical masturbation. End of digression.

Secondly, your reference to Canada, UK, US etc. laws is highly centered on 21st century western(ized) countries; it is very far from being global. As for your reference to "social recognition," that is not only western-centric but also simply wrong. I was going to say "questionable" but then I googled it and found out that as of 2017, 54% of the US population is of the opinion that whether a person is a woman or a man is determined by their sex. (It is even 34% among Democrats and 49% among millennials, which is almost shocking to me to be honest.)

Thirdly, regarding MOS:GENDERID, this seems to be yet another misunderstanding of Wikipedia rules. (People are throwing these at me all the time.) MOS:GENDERID is concerned with how individual persons are referred to. It is not a statement about Wikipedia's position on the gender debate; Wikipedia would not take such a position, and thankfully indeed does not seem to. This article stating that transwomen are AMAB people who identify as women, rather than expressly stating that they are women, would not be a breach of MOS:GENDERID at all.

Finally, regarding the 8th citation, it's a work by a transgender philosopher. It is highly questionable how much its contents correlate with public understanding of gender, identity, and society. It's noteworthy that in the parts of the article using this citation, there is merely an explanation of the perspectives offered by the book. So the body of the Wikipedia article (correctly) does not take the contents of the book as fact, but rather position.

To summarize: whether transwomen are women is not settled in public opinion, science, or anywhere else. None of the citations justify the lead section taking a position on this question. No Wikipedia rules mandate the article taking a position on this question. A straightforward NPOV wording would be "AMAB person who identifies as a woman" and no proper reason was so far given as to why this wording should not be used; neither were alternatives offered. The current wording is POV and clearly unacceptable, as it contradicts English dictionaries and widespread public opinion, without having any justification to do so. Taylan (talk) 19:09, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

To be absolutely clear, on the first point you raise, this is (and presents itself as) an article about a gender identity. It stated that Trans women are women in the sense that applies in this context, which is not that of sex (anatomical or chromosomal) but of gender identity. There is simply no usage in English that identifies "woman" as a sex rather than a gender identity; as you point out there has been a traditional usage in English that distinguishes between female sex and feminine gender, but this usage is (1) in decline and (2) not used in the present article AFAIK, nor should it me IMO. Dictionaries, to which you appeal, recognize "woman" both as a sex and as a gender category, as does the WP article to which you have also appealed. Your claim that "woman" means sex rather than gender is OR, is not supported by literature, and frankly runs contrary to the use of the term in jurisprudence, media, and for example in MOS:GENDERID. Your claim that the use of "woman" for a gender is a postmodernist one is also OR and is factually incorrect.

If the point of your second paragraph is that the belief in anatomically-reductionist understandings of gender identity is widespread, and that this should be recognized and discussed in the article, I agree, just as I have pointed out that anatomically based or sex-assignment-based bathroom laws should be acknowledged and discussed. But public opinion simply does not take the place of what reliable sources have to say on the subject, in this case, the large body of law, policy and scholarship that establishes that Trans women are women.

Your dismissal of a reliable, published source as being the work of a "transgender philosopher" is bizarre and irrelevant. If you believe that there is scholarship of similar merit supporting the exclusion of Trans women from the category "women" you are invited to present it here, but so far you have not done so. SOURCESEXIST is not an argument.

Finally, "woman" as a designation of a gender is present in dictionaries and other authorities; your allegation that the current Lede "contradicts the dictionary" is unsupported by evidence and, frankly, bizarre. Newimpartial (talk) 21:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

You didn't need to detail how my personal views don't conform to Wikipedia rules, as I added them for your clarification and not as a suggestion for the article... You suggest that the point of my second paragraph is something about "the belief in anatomically-reductionist understandings of gender identity." No, we do not know what prompted the questioned population to say that a woman is defined by birth sex. It could have been a simple linguistic reason like mine (i.e. "woman" is simply *defined* as "adult female human") or it could have been a conservative/sexist belief (e.g. all female-born people have a feminine personal essence which defines them as women). We do not know that, as the poll didn't ask for such details. All we know is that "transwomen are women" goes against majority public view. As such, it cannot be claimed as a fact on Wikipedia unless there is e.g. a scientifically or otherwise objectively/authoritatively sourced justification. You say that dictionaries etc. include the gender identity-based definition of "woman", but such definitions are secondary or tertiary even when offered in certain dictionaries. Besides, given this is a very recent change to language which in part contradicts up-to-recent use, it would be better for Wikipedia to avoid relying on it in the first sentence of an article, even if most or all dictionaries were updated to include it. (They aren't.) My summary above stands. I see no justification being provided in this whole discussion as to why "AMAB person who identifies as a woman" should not be used, or as to how "trans women are women..." is an acceptable phrasing to start the article with. The former wording is impartial; the latter a POV or at best based on a neologism of sorts. (I.e. the word "woman" isn't new but the gender identity-based definition of it is.) Taylan (talk) 18:15, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I have responded to your personal views because the edits that you have been proposing appear "neutral" to you because of your personal views. Were it not for your personal convictions, it would not make sense to you to edit a WP article about a gender identity by appealing to definitions based in anatomical sex, just as it does not make sense to anyone that doesn't share your personal, FRINGE convictions. Something like one third of US citizens believe in "young earth" creationism, but WP's articles on evolution aren't written to be neutral between the two perspectives, nor should they be.

Anyway, the key point you haven't seemed to grasp is that WP processes are based on consensus, and you haven't come close to offering policy support or evidence for your proposals beyond poll results, dictionary entries, and other WP articles, none of which is more than tangentially relevant IMO. Shifting consensus so that your edits would be accepted would require a more serious effort. Newimpartial (talk) 18:35, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

That my personal views affect my perception of what is neutral wording is your personal opinion. :-) I rather see your and others' bias preventing you from realizing how strongly POV the current wording is: it doesn't even seem to bother you that it goes against the view of more than half the US population, and is not scientifically or otherwise authoritatively sourced either, which would have justified it like it does on topics such as evolution. As such, your comparison to creationism for instance is false.

I don't care if a group of biased WP editors come to a biased consensus among themselves; if they go against Wikipedia policy, which you people do, I will keep insisting on fixing the article to make it conformant; in this case to WP:NPOV. The current wording 1) goes against public view, 2) has no justification through scientific or other authoritative RS citations. The fact that you still think it's acceptable wording only tells me how strongly biased you are. Taylan (talk) 18:37, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Have fun with that. Just realize that you have to actually convince others of a different consensus: editing against consensus is not going to produce the desired result. :) Newimpartial (talk) 18:58, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Well at least you admit that you're using consensus to insert POV-wording, I guess? Anyway, I've explained in detail how the current wording is POV; if explanations of why my reasoning is wrong aren't provided within a sensible time-frame, I'll take it as silent agreement. Taylan (talk) 19:04, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

To be honest, such an action would likely result in an ANI or AE filing as disruptive, pov-pushing, IDHT, and tendentious. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:29, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to tell me what's the "correct" action to take when a group of biased editors exert mob-rule over an article to retain content that violates Wikipedia policy. I'd much rather avoid the annoying bureaucracy, but if you're so insistant on keeping POV wording, there might be no way around it I suppose. Taylan (talk) 19:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Taylan, I am certainly not "admitting" anything of the kind. Such a reading of my replies does not AGF, particularly as I have gone to some lengths to explain how the current language is neutral, sourced, and policy-based. Your position, if nothing else, is very ICANTHEARYOU and I suspect we are getting to SEALION territory. If in future you mistake the silence of exhausted interlocutors for consensus, you will simply be reverted. As I say, good luck. Newimpartial (talk) 20:35, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

You've used your subjective ideas to argue these things; I've refuted them with reference to facts, such as: 1) the citations don't support the wording (the only one you've explicitly claimed to support the wording is a book by a trans philosopher outlying their perspective), 2) the wording contradicts primary definitions of the words woman/female in most English dictionaries, and 3) the wording contradicts majority public view. I've looked around a little and it looks like the ANI/NPOV noticeboard might be the right place to bring administrator attention to this article... I will wait a little longer before trying to take such a pitiful route to dispute resolution. On the meanwhile, please feel free to try 1) offering authoritative reliable sources that support the wording, 2) explaining how it's justified to contradict the primary definition of "woman" at the absence of #1, 3) explaining how it's justified to contradict majority public opinion at the absence of #1, and 4) why you object so strongly to the impartial wording "AMAB person who identifies as a woman" (abbreviated). Taylan (talk) 21:05, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I have literally addressed all of those issues before; see ICANTHEARYOU. The one thing I will underline is my answer to 2., namely that since this is an article on a gender identity the relevant definition of woman is as a gender. If you don't understand or agree with this basic point, perhaps you should back off editing gender-related articles rather than foisting on them your unsourced/FRINGE POV. Newimpartial (talk) 21:24, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

The current wording ("is a woman who was assigned male at birth") seems to be both in line with what reliable sources have to say about the topic, and a succinct introduction suitable to its location in the article — namely, we're talking about the lead here, which is just a short summary (in-depth explanation belongs in the article body). -sche (talk) 23:16, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

It would be better in line with the citations if it simply said they are AMAB people who identify as women, as that is pretty much exactly what the citations say. Taylan (talk) 12:49, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

As long as it's sourced I don't care, but make sure that it's sourced. Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia, and some articles can contradict due to lack of citations on both of the articles. If there is no reputable citation, than leave it alone. If you do find a citation put the same wording as in the lead in the Overview section with a citation, if it is properly cited no one can complain but arguing over semantics won't get us anywhere and will only lead to bias and original research. ShimonChai (talk) 02:33, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I've gone through the first few citations on the page --all freely accessible ones corresponding to the "Overview" and "Terminology" sections-- and couldn't find any citation that supports the statement "trans women are women" in the first place. Dictionaries tend to define it as "male-to-female transsexual." The current wording is clearly POV-pushing, consistent with the behavior editors have been showing on other articles ever since I started touching these articles on Wikipedia. A wording such as "a trans woman is a person who was assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman" is neutral and corresponds better with the citations. If there are any particular problems with that wording, I'd like to hear them. Taylan (talk) 12:39, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Are you listening to the actual discussion here? Posters have already suggested that this proposed "neutral" wording insinuates that Trans women are not women. That is a "particular problem". Newimpartial (talk) 12:44, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

How does it imply that? It's a very straightforward, factual, and neutral definition, which doesn't say that they are or aren't women. And by the way, your hostile tone is very unwelcome. Taylan (talk) 12:50, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@TaylanUB: The very fact you want to change "woman" to "person" suggests that a transwoman is not a woman. You said earlier you couldn't find a citation that supported "trans women are women". Here's one for you: Gender Recognition Act 2004. I'm sure there is equivalent legislation in other jurisdictions. --John B123 (talk) 14:42, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

You linked to a UK law, which applies only to a subset of transwoman UK citizens, and states that they are legally considered women. This is not global, not generalize-able to outside of law, and excludes all transwomen without a GRC. Taylan (talk) 20:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh and, "person" includes women, since women are people too. Taylan (talk) 20:13, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

• Just dropping in to note, for the record, that yesterday saw some edit warring, accompanied by edit summaries indicative of a lack of knowledge of Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and community expectations. I'm sure that will settle down now. The current revision of the article contains the stable version of the lead paragraph, which should not be changed without clear consensus. (Strongly held opinions of what constitutes appropriate wording are not an acceptable substitute for consensus.) Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 14:01, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@TaylanUB: - I suggest you read, understand and digest Rivertorch's post above and desist from changing the content of the lead section again. --John B123 (talk) 20:50, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@John B123:, I refuse to accept such a blatantly POV wording being reinstated just because there are enough editors that hold the POV. It's not supported by any of the citations given on the page, and takes a very clear stance on a difficult political subject. Feel free to bring in moderators or something; I'm not very good with Wikipedia bureaucracy. The "hold" editors are keeping over this page is the exact same thing I've experienced in other Wikipedia articles, in which some amount of neutrality was ultimately reached. I'm intent on achieving the same on this article, because this is Wikipedia and not RationalWiki. Taylan (talk) 20:56, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@TaylanUB: Sorry, but one person's view, however passionate they may be, don't take precedence over everybody else's view. --John B123 (talk) 21:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@John B123: And I'm sorry but the POV of a group of editors does not take precedence over cited sources. :-) Various citations throughout pages such as woman and man are clear in that the primary definitions are "woman: adult female human" and "man: adult male human" (where female/male are defined biologically). The definitions based on the notion of gender identity are in conflict with those primary definitions, arise from an ideological position that has recently emerged in western society, and yet are being assumed as fact in the lead of this article. Given that "AMAB person who identifies as a woman" is a neutral definition, I think it's rather revealing how strongly some editors feel over the need to start the article with the statement "trans women are women..." Let me remind that this is quite literally a political slogan. What is so bad about saying "AMAB people who identify as women" anyway? Taylan (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

"I refuse to accept such a blatantly POV wording being reinstated just because there are enough editors that hold the POV"... post structural ontological and epistemological debates aside, this comment illustrates the problem well. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:48, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• Stop the horse abuse. The tag team efforts here and on trans man are getting tiring. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:49, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean with "tag team efforts"? (Genuine question.) The discussion on the trans man page is a separate one as far as I'm concerned, especially since I dislike bureaucracy... I'm aiming for a speedier fix in this article by putting up facts in people's faces (no hostility meant) rather than endlessly argue with them. Sorry about the duplicity. Taylan (talk) 19:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Saying "no legitimate issues ... were raised" when many others have pointed out issues is straying into "I didn't hear that" territory, and while linking to acronyms is so overdone on this site, that page does have some good advice: "Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted." (I want to be clear that although the title of that page is "disruptive editing", I'm not accusing you of editing in bad faith: I think the advice useful even for editors who sincerely believe their POV "is NPOV" to consider.
A comparison might be: does the first sentence of the article on [[Donald Trump]] say he "lost the popular vote but won the electoral college and identifies as the 45th President of the United States", or indeed that he "identifies as having won the popular vote"? Or does the article on [[Barack Obama]] say he "is a politician who identifies as an American"? No, and indeed there are guidelines against that kind of wording that casts doubt on the veracity of things reliable sources report: the lead sentences of those articles just say that Trump "is the 45th and current President" (and only several paragraphs later says, again without "identify"-y language, that "he became [...] the fifth to have won the election while losing the popular vote"), and that Obama "is an American politician". This article, too, should not try to cast doubt on what the most reliable sources say.
-sche (talk) 23:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Yet it's true that no legitimate issues were raised. Someone claimed that "AMAB person who identifies as a woman" implies that they're not women. That's not true, as "person" may be a woman. Your analogies about presidency or citizenship make no sense in this context as they are related to legal recognition of a person as president or citizen under a specific state and its jurisdiction. There is no global official "womanhood" you can sign up to. A subset of transwomen living in certain countries are legally categorized as female under those jurisdictions. (And even if we were to focus on only those transwomen and only those jurisdictions, it still wouldn't justify a straightforward statement saying they "are" women, when there are other authoritative definitions of "woman" than the legal category, such as the common dictionary definition based on biology.) You say, at the end, that "the most reliable sources" consider transwomen to be women, but that is not the case. The only RS that was said to say this (I can't check as it isn't freely available) is a book by a transwoman philosopher outlining their philosophical position. Imagine if Janice Raymond's position in The Transsexual Empire was used to make factual statements on Wikipedia... Taylan (talk) 17:38, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable with using "AMAB" in the lead section. The lead is supposed to give an overview of the subject of the article. It needs to be in a language that the 'average person' understands. The use of acronyms such as AMAB in this section won't help someone with no pre-knowledge of the subject to easily understand what the article is about. --John B123 (talk) 18:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I was abbreviating out of laziness, my concrete proposal would be: "A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a person who was assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman." Taylan (talk) 18:25, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Lead section: summary

Regarding the statement in the first sentence of the article which says that transwomen are women:

• It's not supported by citations. The only citation which was said to support the statement (can't check as not freely available) is a book by a transgender academic who doesn't seem very notable; this seems fringe.
• It's contradicted by the common definition of "woman" that can be found in most English dictionaries. Alternative definitions that recently began appearing in some dictionaries would constitute a neologism, which should not be depended on.
• It contradicts public view, as for instance a 2017 Pew Research poll has shown that more than half of the US population thinks that whether a person is a woman is defined by their birth sex.

The sentence should be reworded to an impartial phrasing such as: "A trans woman (...) is a person who was assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman."

Is there any reasoned opposition to this proposal? Taylan (talk) 15:10, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The third of your statements implies the importance of quantity over quality (specifically it implies that the quantity of people who recognize trans women as women is important.) Georgia guy (talk) 15:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Insofar there are no authoritative reliable sources that definitively prefer one view (point nr. 1 I made), the "quality" of both views is equal. As such, the quantity would be the determining factor. But see my question to ShimonChai below on this... Taylan (talk) 16:49, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I am not posting a statement in agreement or disagreement here, just linking to the study so people know what Taylan is talking about. This is the 2017 pew poll. (Though I don't know if a US survey poll counts as a citation in this context?) Also, on a side note the common definition won't have a bearing on the outcome of anything. There is a specific section of WP:NOTADICTIONARY which addresses that.ShimonChai (talk) 16:02, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Views have already been expressed on this, I don't see the point in starting the discussion again. Polls, surveys are notoriously unreliable and the methodology often biased. For every poll or survey that supports an idea there is another that opposes the same idea. Just look at the deviation in polls leading up to an election for example. As this discussion seems to be going around in circles, maybe it's time to take a consensus. --John B123 (talk) 16:46, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Help me understand this, ShimonChai: if the definition used contradicts common understanding, and the respective definitions are considered a politically contentious topic (which should be easy to demonstrate using RS, if desired...), doesn't that mean that wording preferring either side would violate NPOV? Taylan (talk) 16:49, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• Keep wording as is --John B123 (talk) 16:46, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• Keep current language and stop equine abuse. To address Taylan's points:

1. The place for citations is in the body of the article - where they are - not in the Lede.

2. The article is explicitly about a gender identity, and uses "woman" in its standard definition in the context of gender. This is not rocket (or bio) science.

3. Public opinion on gender and sex is relevant to the content to the article (as are anatomically-reductionist bathroom laws), but does not compete with reliable sources. All current reliable sources agree that Trans women have a female gender identity; as a gender, they are Women.

The editor proposing the change should produce at least one reliable source supporting their view, or drop the stick. Q.v. WP:SEALION. Newimpartial (talk) 17:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Can you quote any reliable sources regarding where they state that transwomen are women? Regarding "[as] Trans women have a female gender identity; as a gender, they are Women", this is pretty much OR. Gender and gender identity are complicated topics on their own right.

Anyhow, forget about it, I'll hit the ANI as this doesn't seem to lead us anywhere. Taylan (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)