User talk:Icewhiz

Have your say!

Hi everyone, just a quick reminder that voting for the WikiProject Military history coordinator election closes soon. You only have a day or so left to have your say about who should make up the coordination team for the next year. If you have already voted, thanks for participating! If you haven't and would like to, vote here before 23:59 UTC on 28 September. Thanks, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

WP:Fringe tag

I suggest that you restore the tag. Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:29, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Morvarid Karimi AfD

There is no page to comment on the Morvarid Karimi AfD article, only the closed discussion for the first nomination. I think you may need to re-nominate it for deletion rather than relisting it? Cheers! Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 00:54, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

@Grand'mere Eugene:, yes, would need to be a new AfD as the previous one was closed as no consensus.Icewhiz (talk) 04:12, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

"Not reliably sourced"

Hello Icewhiz, I took the liberty of reverting your change as there are multiple sources reporting this: one, two, three, four, five etc. etc. with actual photo evidence. It's preposterous to me to remove this paragraph claiming it's "not reliably sourced". If you have any doubts about this please raise this point on the Talk page. BeŻet (talk) 14:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

The rules state: If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit. You haven't reverted a change I made, you've removed a section that was a result of multiple edits, and thus yourself created an edit, not a revert. I've reverted your edit, I haven't restored a revert, hence no rules were broken. There are plenty of sources that describe what happened there, including TeleSUR, hence there are clearly grounds for further discussion here which I suggest you start on the Talk page instead of removing a whole section like this. BeŻet (talk) 14:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I will give you the benefit of the doubt as to what "reverting" means, but I will introduce my suggested change from the Talk page. BeŻet (talk) 14:55, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Such an introduction would still be a revert. If you want to introduce this - please stick to what actual RS say. Icewhiz (talk) 14:58, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Could we expand it for a DYK?

I just started Shmuel Krakowski. I wonder if there's enough material to DYK him? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:45, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

The problem is source wise that it is Yad Vashem + an interview with him (+maybe possibly a book jacket). e.g. short English Yad Vashem obit, more detailed Hebrew Yad Vashem obit, and this Interview in Hebrew (Yad Vashem). So basically - we could translate the Yad Vashem page in Hebrew to English, but I'm not seeing at the moment better source material (there might be some - Hebrew is worse than English online - locating Hebrew sources from 1960-2000 online is actually rather spotty). He passed away in September 2018 - there might be a chance this will trigger publications in the next few months - in which case it would be better to base this off those publications. @Ehud Amir: created the Hebrew wiki page in September - I assume off of the Yad Vashem obit/profile - unless I'm missing something. Icewhiz (talk) 09:41, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

If you need me to translate some material about Krakowski from Hebrew to English, or to inspect and revise a Google translation, I'll be glad to do so.Ehud Amir (talk) 09:55, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

blp Bartlett

hi I left a reply could you please clarify your position , thanks Govindaharihari (talk) 07:55, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Done. Icewhiz (talk) 08:01, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Question

Hi, in this edit summary you wrote; "Nope. Result of AfD was a merge - not a partial merge. Project consensus in SHIPS does not override policy. Either this is spunout as a full list - or it is in here as a list" - could you point out which policy you are referring to? Thanks - wolf 13:22, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

The result of the AfD was a merge of a list (which would be notable standalone) to the main article. A merge means merge - names, dates, etc - wikifying a few names in the prose does not meet the definition of a merge.Icewhiz (talk) 17:36, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I get that is how you see it. It's just that you make this sound both very narrowly construed and absolutely mandatory. You also specifically used the word "policy" to support your comments (and ∴ your edits). I was just wondering which policy you were referring to. If you wouldn't mind telling me, I would sure appreciate it. Thanks again - wolf 19:21, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Merge means merge, as per, umm, WP:MERGETEXT, WP:MERGE.Icewhiz (talk) 19:30, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

While I appreciate the quick response, neither of those pages are, umm, policies. They aren't even guidelines. They are "information pages". Now, even though they're "unvetted" and only have "limited status", I'm sure they have some useful tips and advice. But I'm really only looking for the "policy" that you specifically mentioned in your comments. I would just like to give a read so I can better understand just what it is you are relying on to support your comments and edits, both on the Nevada page and here. I really don't want to take up any more of your time than is necessary, so if you could just tell me the name of that policy (or link it), I would, as I said earlier, really appreciate it. Thanks again - wolf 20:00, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

I linked to an information page - yes not policy - but also higher in the totem pole than an essay. AfD consensus is expected to he followed, the notion that a prose mention of names was sufficient was rejected (this was the delete arguement). Merge outcomes (and this is really basic - again per WP:MERGE) refer to a cut and paste merge of all or some (e.g. avioding duplicates) of the content from the merge source to the merge target. Icewhiz (talk) 20:08, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Ok, sooo... there is no policy. Got it. Let's move on. I'm well aware of the WP:PG hierarchy, from policies, like wp:consensus to essays like WP:Don't lie, (btw, glad you mentioned the importance of acknowledging consensus, we'll get back to that later). I also know that sometimes editors will say "as per policy" when reverting, even though there isn't an actual policy supporting said revert. But, hey... this is really about the merge, right? So let's discuss that. The thing about the AfD consensus was that there wasn't really a consensus. Here are the closing admin's comments;

"Given that support for merge, delete and keep is about the same, we must conclude that there is consensus to not keep but also no consensus to delete. This leaves a merger as the most consensual outcome."

There were 8 contributors to that discussion, the !votes were;
"keep" (2), "keep or merge" (2),
"merge" (2) and "delete" (2).
Not exactly an landslide in any direction (or much of a turn-out). But, the closer went with "merge", (and if you read my comments, I wasn't against that), which means merging the content of that article, which consisted of 26 names and nothing else, into the Nevada article. I don't see anything that says the content must remain as a list (no exceptions!). Five of the names were already in the article's prose. Going by your research, I added the other 14 "notable" COs to the prose, and then removed the list, as per the consensus ar WT:SHIPS. (I said we'd get back to that). We can adhere to the consensus of the AfD, including adding the other non-notable names to the prose, which would mean all the content from the AfD article would now be added to the Nevada page, and therefore merged. With that, we could then remove the list (which would then be all duplicate content) and we would also be adhering to the consensus (well, partially at least) of the SHIPS Project, to add COs to the article body and avoid having lists of COs instead. Seems like a win-win scenario, no? I'd be happy to add the remaining names to the article prose right now so we can put this whole matter to rest and move on to other things. What do you say? - wolf 22:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

The list also contains dates. And no, your suggestion above would not reflect the outcome of the AfD.Icewhiz (talk) 04:19, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

OK, When I add the remaining Captain's names, I'll also add the dates for all 26 of them. Everything from the original article will then be merged to current one. Problem solved. - wolf 06:49, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

If most of the content of the merge source is retained, and changes are merely formatting, I guess that would fall under merge broadly construed. Icewhiz (talk) 06:53, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Well good, I'm glad we worked it out. It was nice collaborating with you. Have a nice day. - wolf 09:07, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Birthright Israel

Your latest revert there might be construed as a WP:ARBPIA3 violation. For which I reported VanEman BTW Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#VanEman. Debresser (talk) 20:36, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I do not quite see how - seeing this was reverted forst on 12 Oct, and I did not edit in 5days. However I self reverted.Icewhiz (talk) 20:47, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Because any revert can not be undone for 24 hours in ARBPIA3, not just your revert. Debresser (talk) 18:59, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

The "original authorship" applies to content added by an editor. If editor A add, editor B reverts, there is no restriction on editor C.Icewhiz (talk) 19:06, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

You are right. I always get so confused with these rules. In general, I hate the atmosphere of bureaucracy that started a few years ago. By the way, 24 hours passed. But first see the talkpage for a worthy suggestion. Debresser (talk) 05:39, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
	For kindness to inexperienced users, in posts like this: [1] E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:29, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

NPR Newsletter No.14 21 October 2018

Chart of the New Pages Patrol backlog for the past 6 months.

Hello Icewhiz, thank you for your work reviewing New Pages!

Backlog

As of 21 October 2018, there are 3650 unreviewed articles and the backlog now stretches back 51 days.

Community Wishlist Proposal

• There is currently an ongoing discussion regarding the drafting of a Community Wishlist Proposal for the purpose of requesting bug fixes and missing/useful features to be added to the New Page Feed and Curation Toolbar.
• Please join the conversation as we only have until 29 October to draft this proposal!

Project updates

• ORES predictions are now built-in to the feed. These automatically predict the class of an article as well as whether it may be spam, vandalism, or an attack page, and can be filtered by these criteria now allowing reviewers to better target articles that they prefer to review.
• There are now tools being tested to automatically detect copyright violations in the feed. This detector may not be accurate all the time, though, so it shouldn't be relied on 100% and will only start working on new revisions to pages, not older pages in the backlog.

New scripts

• User:Enterprisey/cv-revdel.js^(info) — A new script created for quickly placing {{copyvio-revdel}} on a page.

Go here to remove your name if you wish to opt-out of future mailings. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 20:49, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Shocking

Take a look at the story in [2] (p. 208). I find this attempt to make profit from Holocaust shocking. Do you think we can describe this somewhere? I wonder if the term 'Holocaust profiteer' exists. Particularly shocking is the fact that this is not a war-time (or shortly after war-time) practice, this is something that's happening right now. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I actually am not shocked - seems par the course for photo copyright. Are you aware of the travel agency cartel? [3] Icewhiz (talk) 05:07, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Reply

Dear Icewhiz,

Thank you for getting in touch. You write on my Talk page:

RE this - I don't want to engage on this in the article - I don't want a high-drama conflict over this. However, the Nazi system of badges included marks for all non-German internees. You can take a look at the wiki article - Nazi concentration camp badge (or this book or this book on Buchenwald), which has some examples - Dutch Jews, Dutch, and French - and this is also of course off-wiki - e.g. Imperial War Museum - French political badge or this Nazi Dachau chart which explains the various markings - note the P for Pole on the bottom and T for Czech (Tschechisch in German). The Nazies were genocidal. They were also meticulous and highly bureaucratic (a bureaucracy that progressed throughout the war - e.g. the tattooed inmate numbers were a later "innovation") - the camp badge system was meant to assist camp guards. I think the article would be better organized if it were focused on those Nazi crimes that were motivated by Nazi racism towards Poles (and there are several such striking examples) - as opposed to Nazi depravity (or in the case of badges - hellish bureaucracy) - which was directed towards most people in Europe - but I leave this observation in your hands - I don't want the drama involved. Icewhiz (talk) 06:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

That makes two of us: I don't want the drama either. This is why I very rarely get involved in sanctioning requests, and often swim away, which is always an option before going to WP:AE, etc. Drama is also why I have drawn down my involvement in this entire project: spending months seeing off a troll on a mission, and his mirrors, until they're eventually permbanned was not my idea of time well spent, when there are so many beautiful things to do in the real world. In this particular case,[4] whether your rationale has merit or not is superseded by how one needs to conduct oneself with consideration for other users, aka consensus. I believe that you have enough capacity for emotional intelligence to know how your edit is likely to be perceived by peers in an open forum: you deleted the illustration of a racist Nazi German concentration camp badge designating an ethnic Polish inmate, from an article about anti-Polish sentiment, on the grounds that it is "irrelevant". This is going to look very wrong to most users, let alone any drama. Please be mindful that it would only be made worse by the fact that peers can see your record of conflict in the subject area of Jewish issues (including those overlapping with Polish history), especially given that you are in the midst of an AE discussion in the area right now [5]. As far as I'm aware you have been sanctioned in these areas before; our community's intention behind these sanctions is not to play a game of who is in the wrong or in the right, who gets caught out and who doesn't, who lost or won a clever argument. It's for the sanctioned user to become more aware of those around them, and as a deterrent for others not to mimic the sanctioned behavior. As a friendly colleague, I'm asking you to step back from the brink and adjust, because I believe you can achieve great things. -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:36, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

This is not what I said in my edit summary - if you quote me - quote me in full. If there is anything sanction-able here it is inserting unsourced OR/SYNTH into the article - please cease repeatedly mentioning sanctions without basis (and in this instance - mentioning an unrelated discussion). In my TP post to you - I merely wished to provide you with sources on the nationality markings on camp badges (since your edit summary of Racist, genocidal regimes putting people labelled by ethnicity in concentration camps is a clear example of anti-ethnic sentiment. It would be Anti-Belgian, anti-English, anti-French, anti-Dutch, and anti-Norwegian sentiment too. As WP:ARBEE rulings are especially strict on Nazism, I recommend you take this up at a noticeboard to check wider consensus first - seemed to be uninformed regarding the marking of several other nationalities in the camps (all of which were marked by a nationality letter), and I will note - not a valid rationale for reversion, but rather a personal opinion) - do with this information as you may. HOWEVER - as I do not wish to invest additional time here, particularly due to the drama involved here (and in this case - for a minor SYNTH/OR problem - the information itself at least being factually correct though containing a misrepresentation via omission of context and being SYNTH due to lack of sourcing tying this to the article) - I have truly said my last word on the subject. Icewhiz (talk) 09:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

You also might want to think why Francophobia doesn't (and shouldn't) have an image like this, and Anti-Dutch sentiment doesn't (and shouldn't) have an image like this (a whole collection of different letter badges - can be seen here). However - up to you. Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

As I say, one should ask a wider forum of users to see what the consensus response would be to these questions. For what it's worth, my contribution to such a discussion would be that the reason why French and Dutch badges have not been added to equivalent pages is most likely because there were no racist Nazi German policies against the French and Dutch, unlike their alleged Untermensch such as Poles, which encountered planned genocide, as the verifiable sources show. In any case, the absence of pictures of these badges from French or Dutch pages doesn't by itself prove that consensus wouldn't accept them being there. Pictures indicating far more vague and far less sinister sentiments are already included after all. It's noticeable that by their nature all choices about illustrations, like infoboxes, tend to come from users rather than sources; so they're more reliant on perceptions of common sense and consensus. -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I would suggest you base inclusion (for this, and other photographs) on sources making the connection - not personal assertion that it is "obvious" or "clear". Note that infoboxes are supposed to be cited - or clear summaries of the article (which is cited) - and photoes (and moreso captions - photos do have a self-work exemption for copyright reasons, captions are like any other article text) are not exempt from the usual sourcing / OR / SYNTH requirements. As for citing lack of consensus (where such lack of consensus is indicated by a single editor - the reverter) - this is not, by itself, an argument for reverting back in un-sourced OR. However, I am done with this at this time (I got involved in the wall of text between you and another editor on the talk page, and it seems it just went on from there becoming a bigger wall on the article talk page - and now here) - please keep this off my talk page. Icewhiz (talk) 10:18, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Proverb article

I hope the current revision addresses all your concerns of OR or NPOV. If it does not, please, list them for me - either here with a ping, or on my talk page, or in a new article section, listing each sentence you consider problematic. If there's any content missing you think should be included to balance the article, I trust you can add it yourself. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:16, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

In my view, the following are problems with the article, listed by order of rising severity:

1. OR - the title and quote are OR - they are not present in this form in available English translations. This is a minor issue - as it is quite close to various forms that are used.
2. OR / factually incorrect - "It was also used by non-Polish authors; for example in addition to Križanić and Krman, " - none of the cited authors "use this" - but rather they mention this as a Polish/Latin saying on the situation in Poland. (corrected).
3. Notability - the phrase itself (of which there are several variant forms - some of which are tied together via SYNTH/OR into the article as being synonymous), as opposed to "Paradisus Judaeorum" (which is discussed in the literature), is not independently notable. The lack of notability is actually demonstrated by the sourcing in the article - which for mentions of the full phrase relies on pre-20th century sources. We have an open RM on the title.
4. Neutrality - the article does not properly reflect that this is an antisemitic polemic which is saying that Jews (and in other forms - heretics at large - "paradisus haereticorum") are treated "too good". This is not a tangential issue - this is the main use of this saying, throughout the ages.

Icewhiz (talk) 07:26, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

1 and 3. I do think that the full phrase is notable, as it has been discussed in a number of sources. You can take it to AfD if you think only the I/JP part is notable, but I think the fact that it was subject to an in-depth academic treatment by Kot (~20 pages), plus at least several paragraphs by other scholars, is sufficient to show it is notable.

2. Fair enough, I see you've corrected those issues yourself, and I don't intend to restore the prior wording of those parts.

3. I hope you can expand on those issues. The sources I see don't seem to lend themselves that easily to that type of critique, IMHO, but if you think they do, or found better sources, well, I believe expansion is the best way of solving such perceived undue coverage issues.

4 . I'd appreciate your thoughts on what would be a neutral hook. I think the one proposed by StarryGradnma seems quite neutral, don't you? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:03, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

At this point I'm mainly waiting for the RM to conclude. If this remains on the non-notable full saying - I will take this to AfD. As for StarryGradnma's hook - inclusion of a highly antisemitic saying on the main page (the title of the article - being the full phrase) - requires explicitly spelling this out. Icewhiz (talk) 07:20, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I've added a quotation about the original text anti-Jewish meaning to the lead. Does it address your NPOV concerns? As for the notability, see my recent talk page post. We are dealing with three items: a poem, a proverb, and a two-word construct. I think the proverb, as the best known of the three, is the best to build the article around. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

No - as it doesn't say anti-Jewish (or Semitic) in the lede. As for notability - I see how the two-word construct (Jewish/Hebrew paradise in various permutations) is notable - as it is discussed in a secondary manner with some depth. The full phrase, is in my view of the sources not notable - as I see it you have possibly 1-2 sources discussing the phrase in a secondary manner at a length that can be considered of some length - the rest of sources either being PRIMARY (e.g. 18th century collections of Latin sayings/poems) or brief 1-2 sentence mentions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

You are welcome to edit the lead yourself. As the quote states that the poem was critical of Jews, I don't know what more do you want. As for notability, thank you for pointing out it is notable, as what you describe above meets minimum GNG requirements perfectly. PS. On second thought, I've added a link to antisemitism to the lead (anti-Jewish redirects there, I think we can agree that we don't need to link to the pipe, right?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:04, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

NPR Newsletter No.15 16 November 2018

Chart of the New Pages Patrol backlog for the past 6 months.

Hello Icewhiz,

Community Wishlist Survey – NPP needs you – Vote NOW

• Community Wishlist Voting takes place 16 to 30 November for the Page Curation and New Pages Feed improvements, and other software requests. The NPP community is hoping for a good turnout in support of the requests to Santa for the tools we need. This is very important as we have been asking the Foundation for these upgrades for 4 years.

If this proposal does not make it into the top ten, it is likely that the tools will be given no support at all for the foreseeable future. So please put in a vote today.

We are counting on significant support not only from our own ranks, but from everyone who is concerned with maintaining a Wikipedia that is free of vandalism, promotion, flagrant financial exploitation and other pollution.

With all 650 reviewers voting for these urgently needed improvements, our requests would be unlikely to fail. See also The Signpost Special report: 'NPP: This could be heaven or this could be hell for new users – and for the reviewers', and if you are not sure what the wish list is all about, take a sneak peek at an article in this month's upcoming issue of The Signpost which unfortunately due to staff holidays and an impending US holiday will probably not be published until after voting has closed.

Go here to remove your name if you wish to opt-out of future mailings. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}18:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom 2018 election voter message

Hello, Icewhiz. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Removal of content from multiple ghetto articles

As I've shown in Sosnowiec Ghetto and Nowy Sącz Ghetto, the content you removed is actually not that hard to verify. I am afraid that quite a lot of content you removed from other Ghetto articles is also easy to verify. Could you double check the content you removed, at least cross-reference the names with YV online database and their The Encyclopedia of the Righteous Among the Nations book? (I assume you'd concur those sources are reliable). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:43, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I removed content that was not cited or cited to unreliable sources. I will also note that ghetto articles (or Wikipedia in general) is not a place to WP:COATRACK WP:UNDUE primary victim or righteous accounts that are not covered in a secondary manner by sources on the ghettos. In some of these, over 50% of the article was to such primary accounts which are not present in sources covering the ghetto itself in detail as a topic- e.g, the USHMM encyclopedia of camps.Icewhiz (talk) 04:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Different sources focus on different aspects of this, fortunately, WP:NOTPAPER so we have room for various details. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

The USHMM encyclopedia prefers sometimes Russian/Belarus sources (Brześć Ghetto), so it doesn't know about ethnic Poles. Xx236 (talk) 12:35, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Antisemitism of Soviet partisans

See Talk:Soviet_partisans#Antisemitism. Right now this is a dimension totally missing from the article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:52, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Nominations now open for "Military historian of the year" and "Military history newcomer of the year" awards

Nominations for our annual Military historian of the year and Military history newcomer of the year awards are open until 23:59 (GMT) on 15 December 2018. Why don't you nominate the editors who you believe have made a real difference to the project in 2018? MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Arrow Cross Party

Please edit.Xx236 (talk) 09:16, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

You have admitted you don't read pages regarding the Holocaust. Xx236 (talk) 10:14, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

What in particular needs attention?Icewhiz (talk) 10:43, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I have listed a number of problems on their Talk pages.Xx236 (talk) 11:44, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I think that is regards to Hitler and Himmler there are a number of editors with better expertise than me and that the articles are well watched and edited (as far as Wikipedia goes, of course....) - it is also a careful balancing act (as a huge amount of material is available on both). However, the Arrow Cross Party seems in need of some editor TLC (as many less traversed WWII topics - in particular topics that modern nationalists are inspired from) - I placed it on my watchlist (to begin), and I may edit it. Icewhiz (talk) 12:56, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

The structure of Himmler is wrong, The Holocaust outside WWII, too short Holocaust and too long Germanisation, too little about economy (Monowitz added after my suggestion). Adolf Hitler - Nazi Germany describes the period before the war. So no expertise is visible.Xx236 (talk) 12:56, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Wannsee Conference. Is Encyclopedia Judaica of low quality?Xx236 (talk) 09:39, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

jewishvirtuallibrary is generally lower quality than a mainstream academic book (it may be better for npov than a book by a fringey author, but generally lower). For lesser trodden topics it maay be ok, but for Wannsee there should be no lack of better sources. What is good with JVL is that it is all online.Icewhiz (talk) 10:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Laurence Rees is competent, but not academic.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Xx236 (talk • contribs)

But he is a recognized historian. I would personally - without looking in depth at the merits - prefer Rees in a published setting to JVL. It also doesn't really matter - as you don't need two citations to support the content - Diannaa didn't change the text, merely removed a citation - and you don't need more than one citation for content that is not controversial (and saying 8/15 had doctorates doesn't sound too touchy). Icewhiz (talk) 10:52, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Police Battalion 309 doesn't describe their crimes, so I have copied from Great Synagogue, Białystok.Xx236 (talk) 10:17, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Economy of Nazi Germany - no Holocaust. Very strange.Xx236 (talk) 12:52, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure the Holocaust per se was a major contributor to the economy of Nazi Germany (they did pilfer alot of Jewish property, but they also expanded quite a bit of resources to kill Jews and others). However, what I do find disturbing in the linked article is that while slave labour (which also includes Holocaust victims - but was much wider than just the Holocaust) gets a section - the very high mortality rate of the slave laborers is not covered. Icewhiz (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare by Gotz Aly describes the economy of the Holocaust. Short version "The Holocaust, then, was not just a result of the ideology of anti-Semitism but also of the policies of plunder that won the regime the support of the vast majority of the German people".[6] Similar opinion [7].Xx236 (talk) 13:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Nazi pilfering of property is a bit "over sold" in my mind (yes - there are sources). I'm actually more concerned with mortality of slave labor as a whole - I guess I understand why it isn't in there - it seems difficult to get an estimate for this (other than it was high) and the numbers also include "work to death" schemes (in, out, or "grey zone" Holocaust) - I've looked and have been unable to find a good source (there's lots of stuff down in the weeds - estimates for specific locales, and particular anecdotes (e.g. V2 workers) - but I don't see a good source for this). Icewhiz (talk) 13:12, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Slave labor is very general. Some workers were accepted as members of family by German farmers. Some men were hanged because of Rassenschande. Some workers participated in underground activities and were killed or imprisoned. Newborn childen of female workers were killed (starved).

http://www.polska-niemcy-interakcje.pl/articles/show/34 Polish study

http://www.expolis.de/schlesien/texte/maas_pl.html Polish translation of a German text.

Xx236 (talk) 09:40, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Would you write Renia Spiegel? [8], pl:Renia Spiegel, de:Renia Spiegel.Xx236 (talk) 10:14, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Re: Richard C. Lukas page edits

Hi IceWhiz,

I saw your notes on the noticeboard, and I understand the COI issues--the editorial content versus factual. What concerned me was that someone had removed Lukas's award by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League (B'nai Brith), which I put back in, as that showed that many Jewish historians did agree with--and appreciate--Lukas's work. Norman Davies's credentials had also been taken out, so I added those again as well. These parts are important because, as you may or may not know, Lukas's book, The Forgotten Holocaust, stirred up controversy among some Jewish historians, but not all other historians agree with the criticism. The book in no way seeks to take away from the Jewish experience of the Holocaust, but to focus on the Polish experience as well, and how Poles and Jews related to each other during WWII. To your point, I can have Dr. Lukas provide quotes and/or actual documentation from historians who disagree with Engel, instead of a blanket statement that they disagree with him. I'll take another look over the page to make sure it complies with the COI issues. Thanks for your feedback, and let me know if there is something else that needs to be adjusted. White Eagle 70 (talk) 17:22, 4 December 2018 (UTC)White Eagle 70

@White Eagle 70:, any information you add - also rewards - needs to be backed up by a WP:RS. Please also read WP:COI and WP:DISCLOSE if needed in a manner pursuant to policy. Icewhiz (talk) 17:26, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Ok, please note that the facts on this page are backed up by reliable sources and published work. Also, it is correct to say that Lukas is the first American historian to write on this topic (the Polish experience of WWII), which is what made The Forgotten Holocaust groundbreaking. Before him, there were Polish historians who wrote about it. But it IS actually the first English language book of this kind. That is a true, factual statement. Thank you for the information about editing. White Eagle 70 (talk) 20:27, 4 December 2018 (UTC)White Eagle 70

Siedlce Ghetto

You remove but not write anything good about Polsih people. Even the Yizkor book seems to be unreliable, maybe antisemitic? Xx236 (talk) 12:43, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I remove it since to was sourced to a WP:SPS Mark Paul - who is not reliable. If there is a reliable source - it can be restored. Note that most Yizkor books are regarded as WP:PRIMARY - being witness accounts (there are exceptions) - it is usually best to use secondary sources analyzing them and not the yizkor books themselves. Icewhiz (talk) 12:46, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Help with sourcing on AIG

Hey Icewhiz! Hope you're doing well. I raised a question over at the AIG talk page but have yet to get a meaningful reply. I remembered you're part of WP:FINANCE and really helped me with sourcing issues for FASB. If you've got the time, could you take a look? My concern is that any sources I've found for the information are all future-facing and don't reflect the event actually occurring. If I could find a suitable source I'd suggest a rewrite, but in the absence of one, would it be appropriate to remove the content in question?--FacultiesIntact (talk) 00:51, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Hello! Just wanted to drop you a friendly note to see if you got my message over at Talk:American International Group. I know things can get a little hectic this time of year. I appreciate all the feedback you've given me, and I'm curious to hear your opinion.--FacultiesIntact (talk) 23:57, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi - I saw - but I disagree (I think it is relevant) with you and didn't want to repeat myself - letting other folk chime in there. Icewhiz (talk) 10:15, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

There hasn't been a whole lot of activity over there. Do you think it'd be appropriate to open an WP:RFC? I'd also be interested in hearing from some others.--FacultiesIntact (talk) 02:24, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

You could do that. Not sure you'd see a whole lot of participation, but it might garner some interest (possibly the Russia angle will drive up participation). Icewhiz (talk) 06:36, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Editing Israel-Arab conflict ban

I just want to ask why do you prohibit users who edit about the Israel-Arab conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pixarkid101 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

@Pixarkid101: It is not me. Please read WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 and the full case there to see Arbcom's reasoning.Icewhiz (talk) 17:01, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Strange edit of yours

[9] There are Jews who are Christian, Muslim or Buddhist.I myself have partially Jewish(Ashkenazi ancestor from 18th century) background and I am an atheist.Let's not dicate our articles based on some religious hardliner beliefs.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:10, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I, concurrently, wrote on the article talk page, please respond there. There is no indication this individual (Christian at birth, one parent a convert) identified or presented himself as partially Jewish. We generally do not racially classify bios.Icewhiz (talk) 22:18, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Please help to remove the picture of Birkenau camp misused by a denialist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2018_December_13#File:Toeben.jpg Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Do you really accept such pictures? http://www.toben.biz/ ?Xx236 (talk) 08:12, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I actually found the link to toben.biz (which was in our article and I removed) as much more problematic. Also the infobox there was a big problem (as it did not present what he was known for). As for the photo itself - I think it is ironic (a convicted Holocaust denier photographed before a camp!) and if at all negative to Toben when presented in a neutral article. I am aware that Toben uses this as propaganda (in the course of his denial) - but our article is not doing so (and nor should it!). Presented outside of the context of advocating denial, I don't see how the photo itself advocates denial nor expertise - if at all it exhibits denial.Icewhiz (talk) 08:17, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Blanket reverts

This is disruptive. Forget that you slyly put in "Israeli-held" instead of Syrian, in your zeal to protect Wikipedia from including links to Israeli occupation of the West Bank, your blanket revert also removed archive links to sources in the article. Kindly do not make such blanket reverts in the future. nableezy - 10:15, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Good morning. Please do avoid personal attacks.Icewhiz (talk) 10:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

That edit was disruptive. There is no personal attack. Please avoid making disruptive edits in the future. nableezy - 10:34, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

No - what is disruptive is nominating articles you do not like for AfD with no policy legs to stand on. Reverting challenged edits without discussion - as you have done in a number of articles is disruptive as well.Icewhiz (talk) 10:38, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

So, removing archive links to webpages, thats what exactly? Good editing? No policy grounds? WP:NOT is a policy, sorry. Im unaware of any challenged edits I have reverted without discussion. nableezy - 10:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

NPR Newsletter No.16 15 December 2018

Hello Icewhiz,

Reviewer of the Year

This year's award for the Reviewer of the Year goes to Onel5969. Around on Wikipedia since 2011, their staggering number of 26,554 reviews over the past twelve months makes them, together with an additional total of 275,285 edits, one of Wikipedia's most prolific users.

Thanks are also extended for their work to JTtheOG (15,059 reviews), Boleyn (12,760 reviews), Cwmhiraeth (9,001 reviews), Semmendinger (8,440 reviews), PRehse (8,092 reviews), Arthistorian1977 (5,306 reviews), Abishe (4,153 reviews), Barkeep49 (4,016 reviews), and Elmidae (3,615 reviews).
Cwmhiraeth, Semmendinger, Barkeep49, and Elmidae have been New Page Reviewers for less than a year — Barkeep49 for only seven months, while Boleyn, with an edit count of 250,000 since she joined Wikipedia in 2008, has been a bastion of New Page Patrol for many years.

See also the list of top 100 reviewers.

Less good news, and an appeal for some help

The backlog is now approaching 5,000, and still rising. There are around 640 holders of the NPR flag, most of whom appear to be inactive. The 10% of the reviewers who do 90% of the work could do with some support especially as some of them are now taking a well deserved break.

Really good news - NPR wins the Community Wishlist Survey 2019

At #1 position, the Community Wishlist poll closed on 3 December with a resounding success for NPP, reminding the WMF and the volunteer communities just how critical NPP is to maintaining a clean encyclopedia and the need for improved tools to do it. A big 'thank you' to everyone who supported the NPP proposals. See the results.

Training video

Due to a number of changes having been made to the feed since this three-minute video was created, we have been asked by the WMF for feedback on the video with a view to getting it brought up to date to reflect the new features of the system. Please leave your comments here, particularly mentioning how helpful you find it for new reviewers.

---

If you wish to opt-out of future mailings, go here.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:14, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Voting now open for "Military historian of the year" and "Military history newcomer of the year" awards

Voting for our annual Military historian of the year and Military history newcomer of the year awards is open until 23:59 (GMT) on 30 December 2018. Why don't you vote for the editors who you believe have made a real difference to Wikipedia's coverage of military history in 2018? MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Because it seems like you need to be reminded...

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have recently shown interest in living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect: any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or any page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

Template:Z33 — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 11:01, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

WP:HOUNDING

Since youve seemingly admitted to it, if you continue to follow my contributions for the sole aim of opposing my edits I will seek administrative redress. Thank you for your cooperation. nableezy - 15:43, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

No, I have not admitted to this. "correcting related problems on multiple articles" is correct use of editor history.Icewhiz (talk) 16:34, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Sure buddy, this isnt an admission. Regardless, you do it again off to AE we go. nableezy - 16:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Changes on Iran page

Hi Icewhiz,

The heavily political paragraph on current Iranian government should not be in the introduction. See Spanish, or Italian wikipedia pages on the country. See English wikipedia pages on any other country. Political and government related topics are never discussed in the intro.

Rahdar Danesh (talk) 05:11, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

That is incorrect. Political issues are often discussed in intros when relevant - see 3rd and 4th paragraphs in North Korea. Icewhiz (talk) 06:27, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Then that page needs to be edited as well. Extensive political arguments (and counterarguments) are not commonly present in intro. Finding 1 other example out of many does not prove a norm.

Rahdar Danesh (talk) 16:25, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

One of many. See Syria, Sudan, or (to break the run on S) Myanmar. The inclusion of such material in the lede is a per-country decision based on how sources cover the topic.Icewhiz (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

For Sudan, Syria, and Myanmar there are brief description about the facts of the "civil wars", there is not any argument for or against the parties involved in the civil wars. Inclusion of political viewpoints is inappropriate in the intro, those should be discussed in the politics section.

Rahdar Danesh (talk) 20:46, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

The human rights in Iran are not a political viewpoint, but rather documented sourced reality per secondary RSes. There is not hard and fast rule on this matter. The question of whether it is appropriate or inappropriate (or more to the point - DUE or UNDUE) - depends on the country and situation in question. Icewhiz (talk) 05:56, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

The paragraph is not only about human rights, rather about a range of issues. The paragraph is clearly assuming a position against a political entity. It would make sense to limit such discussions (for or against governments) to the "government and politics" section. Rahdar Danesh (talk) 14:40, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Per what policy? Icewhiz (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

"Government and politics" need to be discussed under "government and politics" section to highlight neutrality. Comparison with other languages on the matter may show a cultural bias which is against WP:NPOV, see Anglo-American focus in NPOV/FAQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus. Furthermore, it is common sense to discuss a topic under its appropriate title. "Agriculture" should be discussed under "agriculture". It it is not good writing/organization to put a full paragraph about it in the intro, other language pages on the same country and English pages on other countries can be used to understand the relevance and appropriate weight of a topic (such as politics) in the intro. Rahdar Danesh (talk) 23:16, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Certainly they should be discussed in the body - that does not preclude a summary in the lede.Icewhiz (talk) 04:57, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

That would be against writing organization if you put everything in the intro. Over-emphasis on politics on one single country is against NPOV. Compare to other languages (for the same country) and compare other countries to see over-emphasis in the intro. Rahdar Danesh (talk) 19:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Other countries cover political and human rights in the lede. There might be some place for a trim - shorter summary form.Icewhiz (talk) 19:25, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Happy Saturnalia

		Happy Saturnalia
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and troll-free. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:58, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

Best wishes for this holiday season! Thank you for your Wiki contributions in 2018. May 2019 be prosperous and joyful. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:35, 21 December 2018 (UTC) Noël ~ καλά Χριστούγεννα ~ З Калядамі ~ חנוכה שמח ~ Gott nytt år!

SMS Vulcano

Hi, in case you didn't know, there may be a dispute between sources on the date of launch-the Polish-language Wikipedia page says 1844. Blythwood (talk) 01:48, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Ha - (I think) I was not aware of the plwiki entry (which keeps on surprising me (positively) in terms of quality and npov). A year (which can be a few months) might just be the difference between the launch date and entering service date. I am fairly sure that the source I am citing says 1843 - but there might be some source variance (I recall seeing other minor details varying somewhat - I tried to use the sources I trusted more (qualiyy and depth of coverage).Icewhiz (talk) 04:58, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Season Greetings

Merry Christmas Icewhiz


Hi Icewhiz, I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year,
May next year be prosperous and joyful.
   –Scopecreep ^{Merry Xmas / Happy New Year} 11.02, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

• apology. I thought the dates were for the mythical mistress, not the real king. editing while tired.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:12, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

  No worries - the article was and is a mess - and you have improved it overall. :-).Icewhiz (talk) 19:17, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Question for help

May I please ask a question for help from an experienced user? How do I interlink from Wikipedia to Wikimedia Commons Upload Wizard? Thank you--Wyn.junior (talk) 16:38, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Steamship Star of the West approaching Fort Sumter

You mean to a file uploaded to commons? The file will be available under the same name in Wikipedia. You can then use the following in Wikipedia to link to it:

[[File:Steamship Star of the West, with reinforcements for Major Anderson, approaching Fort Sumter.jpg|thumb|Steamship Star of the West approaching Fort Sumter]]

(see example above). Icewhiz (talk) 16:43, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for answering. I am trying to redirect some pages from Wikipedia to Wikimedia Commons Upload Wizard because this page is not very accessible.--Wyn.junior (talk) 15:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

What specifically are you trying to redirect? Because that doesn't quote make sense to me (unless this is some policy page?). Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I am trying to make it easier for people to Upload Files.--Wyn.junior (talk) 16:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

If you want to create an off-site redirect (to another Wiki).... I'm not sure how you do that. If you just want to link - well normal square brackets work (and there a way to create an interwiki link - not sure about commons). Probably best to ask someone versed in markup - I'm not really sure how to do what you want to do. Icewhiz (talk) 16:21, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

icewhizz

you are operating in bad faith and propagandising wiki content and, imo, should be sanctioned. who do i complain to? Msjenniferjames (talk) 04:17, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Thanks. Icewhiz (talk) 12:02, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions for American politics

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have recently shown interest in post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.  Bishonen | talk 22:03, 15 January 2019 (UTC).

Pamela Geller

Did you even read Simon223's edit summary before you made this revert, or read the two separate bits he had restored? Why remove both? I don't know if that was lack of care, or tendentiousness, but it wasn't good. Bishonen | talk 22:05, 15 January 2019 (UTC).

I did. One bit was sourced to a blog (Atlas Shrugged - yes hers, but possibly UNDUE and FRIND concerns), when we have no lack of secondary sources covering her. The other bit was sourced to the SPLC, which we usually attribute. Geller should probably be described as right-wing or far-right - but this should be based on the way she is described in the majority of secondary sources (which per my check seem to focus on Islamophobia and not the right/left divide - e.g. this BBC profile does not contain far right - though it is highly critical of her (bigoted in the headline)).Icewhiz (talk) 04:40, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

And I will note - language not supported by the cited SPLC source (which I checksd now) - which seems like a rather big issue.Icewhiz (talk) 05:06, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Help

Hi, sorry if I did something wrong. I opened the arbitration request as a genuine case.

I have edited in good faith even if poor. I have only just passed 100 edits so help rather than going straight after me would be helpful

Apologies again. I'll not bother editing anymore Alex Tiffin (talk) 10:47, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Help

Hi, sorry if I did something wrong. I opened the arbitration request as a genuine case.

I have edited in good faith even if poor. I have only just passed 100 edits so help rather than going straight after me would be helpful

Apologies again. I'll not bother editing anymore Alex Tiffin (talk) 10:48, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Which source?

Please answer.Xx236 (talk) 12:50, 18 January 2019 (UTC) The book about post-war literature. Typical manipulation.Xx236 (talk) 12:58, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

I answered on the article tp.Icewhiz (talk) 20:18, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

An invitation to discussion

I kindly invite you to the discussion on Template talk:Infobox election#The Bolding issue to decide whether to bold the winner in the election infobox. Lmmnhn (talk) 19:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

I try to stay clear of MOS issues (I let the style aficionados duke it out, I do try to follow MOS to the best of my very limited ability but I probably make many mistakes and I (almost) never contest one style over another.... This is a hugely important part of the project for some editors - just not me). Icewhiz (talk) 08:06, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

John Radzilowski

Please explain the reason for seeking to delete this page. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AK Piast (talk • contribs) 22:43, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I explained in my nom - IMHO, failing WP:NPROF amd WP:GNG.Icewhiz (talk) 04:30, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for leading me to a new tool to measure readable prose size - XTools

Icewhiz, thank you for making me learn something new. I was writing to you asking how you determined prose size for Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and listing how I thought it could be done, when I looked again at Wikipedia:Article size, and right there under the paragraph for readable prose was a link to the tool XTools. I tried it on the Israeli occupation article, on the Beatles article, and on a very long list article, and I was amazed at what it showed. The Beatles article took over a minute to chew through, but showed a readable prose under the 100,000 suggested split limit, while the very long list, the largest article in Wikipedia, showed a prose of 51 characters, which is how I interpreted what it meant to be readable prose vs. tables and lists. Mostly you don't care about this, I would imagine, so basically, this is a thanks for leading this horse to water. Mburrell (talk) 21:48, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Try installing User:Dr pda/prosesize (also there) - it lets you measure on revisions as well (and not just the current rev - which is all I managed with XTools). I think both have issues in some cases (e.g. in the occupation article it doesn't count the notes as prose - well since notes are usually refs or small notes.... not 50k+ of text.... and in some cases counting tables does make sense...) - but they work better than dumping into an external word counter (which is a fall back for exceptions).Icewhiz (talk) 21:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

ADL

The RFC you started has been finished could you implement its decision --Shrike (talk) 07:29, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Done. Icewhiz (talk) 07:35, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

WP:AE

Please check WP:AE, Huldra (talk) 22:38, 28 January 2019 (UTC)