Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Edit this section for new requests

Suspicious new SPA accounts

User:Melikbilge's first edit was on 15 September 2008, he began distorting an obscure article within the AA scope: Melik. Occasionally reverting with the aid of his apparent ip Special:Contributions/206.193.235.2 ‎Strangely enough this is another article that has been stable and had no conflicts for over a year. A pattern seems to be emerging here. User:Noeros' first edit was on 29 January 2007 where he added himself to the participant's list of Wikiproject Azerbaijan. He makes no edits since then and reappears on 26 September 2008 to remove a huge chunk on article Ganja, Azerbaijan. A section that has been there for years. Immediately beginning an edit war. Checkusers might be required but in the meantime AA2 can be used to sanction them.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Have these users been informed of the restrictions set by Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I advised Noeros [1], and that user hasn't edited since, for good or ill. A checkuser on it would be merited given the fact that user registered many moons ago (January 2007), and if this is the same user over on ruwiki, the user has antagonised the Armenians.

I don't have the same concerns about Melikbilge (talk · contribs) (yet) as they look like a normal user who is just editing a hot topic, but if they continue to edit war it might be a problem. I have left Melikbilge a welcome and a informal warning. I am concerned about Special:Contributions/68.122.145.187; I wonder what checkuser would have to say about that. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 14:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I have a good reason to believe that 68.122.145.187 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is Hetoum I (talk · contribs), who was placed on parole and is evading it using anon IPs. --Grandmaster (talk) 15:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I have soft blocked 69.125.213.0/24 and 69.125.213.0/24. He is welcome to log in and edit responsibly. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 15:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

This IP is a bit more complicated, but there doesnt appear to be any AA2 violations between the IP and the users, so I have left the following note on User talk:68.122.145.187 : "Please log in to edit if you are going to undo edits like you did here, otherwise I will put all of the users on this range under Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 discretionary sanctions, as they appear to be the same person." John Vandenberg ^(chat) 16:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

John's action is obviously inadequate, we already know that Noeros is related to both Atabek and Dacy69. It was discovered by Russian Wikipedia checkusers that such a relation exists. See here. According to them, the users were in fact connected outside Wikipedia.

This user already knew about AA2 so any warning under those circumstances is worthless. Also note that this conclusion from the ruwiki checkusers was given on February 1, 2007. It would take them less than year and half to figure out how to avoid CU detection.

As evidenced by the 2007 CU, the new accounts didn't just stumble upon the articles they edited, they were invited here to meatpuppet for Grandmaster and Atabek. Just a warning in this case is clearly inadequate. VartanM (talk) 19:40, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• I can't read Russian. Can someone translate all of that for me, please? Moreschi (talk) 19:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Here you go. "Abuse was not found using the detection tools. There is a very high probability that all of the parties are different people. Nevertheless, we believe that the community should be aware that the list of regions from which these members go online, and a list of Internet providers, through which access is made, means there is a connection between these parties outside of Wikipedia. Communit is recommend to review the following facts: the participants appeared for a short time, carried out similar actions and have shown no interest in further work; consider whether they fall under the term "psuedopuppet" (psuedovirtual", "meatpuppet") and take appropriate measures." You can check it by using google's translator here VartanM (talk) 19:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)VartanM, my reading of that Russian checkuser case is that no specific users were named as being similar - the checkusers only gave a general response that there was a problem, and a recommendation on how to deal with the problem without them needing to explicitly and definitively link any of the accounts.

Also, I find it extremely odd that you find my early notification as insufficient. Just recently, it was expected that Vacio (talk · contribs) was given an "official" warning, even though Khoikhoi had actually informed the user of the AA2 case. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 20:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It says that they're different people, which we already know they are, but it also notifies the community that they're connected outside of wikipedia. And taking that into consideration, we can conclude that the new accounts didn't just appear out of nowhere. I can also give you their single purpose, it was to make me and others to revert, so Grandmaster can have a handful of diffs to report on this page. VartanM (talk) 20:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

On what basis are checkusers suggesting that a set of different people are connected outside of Wikipedia? John Vandenberg ^(chat) 01:43, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, just noticed User:VartanM accusing me of sockpuppetry with User:Noeros based on his obviously insufficient interpretation of Russian text.

Moreschi and John, for your information, [2]: Злоупотреблений, выявляемых механизмом проверок, не обнаружено. С очень большой вероятностью все рассматриваемые участники являются разными людьми. - means, CU results were negative, and mentioned users are different people. The Russian Wiki admin further went into elaborating whether the users are connected to each other in real world, for which no evidence was produced either as the thread is almost 19 months old, and I edit Russian Wiki once in a while.

For the recent experience of such provocations in English Wiki this year, based on, yet again fabricated evidence of User:Fedayee and bad faith of User:VartanM acting upon WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality directed against contributors of certain nationality - see here - 2 months of wasted time. If any of you has doubts, I would be more than delighted to share any information to prove that I have no slightest idea who User:Noeros even in virtual world. But then I suggest that User:VartanM be finally held fully accountable with all relevant consequences for any accusation he makes against me in this and other boards, for Nth time. Atabəy (talk) 00:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Atabəy (formerly Atabek)

Atabek was involved in AA1 in which he was nearly banned and AA2. The AA2 Amended Remedies and Enforcement allows any uninvolved administrator to impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict, despite being warned, when the editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Inspite of being topic banned for one month, followed by two months, Atabek hasn't shown any in improvement in his behavior. In fact his behaviour has deteriorated to such a degree that it has forced me to file this report when I usually avoid doing so.

Refused to adhere to WP:ICANTHEARYOU, for which reason he was already topic banned

Atabek was already banned for editing and commenting once by Thatcher because he was ignoring other users comments in the discussion page. ...won't actually take the time to read and comprehend others' comments, ...privilege to comment is temporarily suspended. [3] He was warned strongly not to do that again, but after returning from his "vacation" he added a POV tag here claiming he's doing so because: discuss and explain the selective removal of Dowsett and Minorsky references yet a year ago that topic was beaten to death and numerous users had explained to him that he is misusing those sources and that nobody is denying their validity. Is there some sort of an expiry date attached to the discussion page? In fact a more recent paper of Dowsett was presented to him, user VartanM replied to him (a year ago) by quoting Dowsett this was done on FOUR different occasions [4], [5], [6], and all those answers were addressed to Atabek. As for Minorsky, Atabek used p. 506 of Caucasica IV, but the one single use of Albanian on that page was put in quotations (like 'Albanian'). Here is where it is used: The special 'Albanian' patriarchate of the Armenian church formed the link between the two banks. In fact, the author supports the contrary of what Atabek claims: A particular complication results from the contemporary Armenian fashion of assuming Arabic patronymics (kunya) (such as Abii-Miisii, Abul-Asad, etc.), without any connexion with the original Armenian names. These latter too often recur in otherwise unrelated families, and it becomes difficult to discriminate between several Sahls, Vasaks, and Smbats living at the same time... Beside those sources others were provided which were much more explicit see here by VartanM, which included Britannica. VartanM will be repeating himself, Fedayee will come and start quoting Dowsett displaying that it contradicts Atabek's interpretation as well as providing other sources. So Atabek by adding that tag and by making that summary, he has gone against WP:ICANTHEARYOU, for which he was was blocked previously.

The second case: is here, user Fedayee's description here shows how Atabek refused to read what others have been writting. I quote user Meowy: "Atabek, has returned to editing certain articles after leaving them alone for a year. The material he is attempting to add to the articles is exactly the same material he was attempting to add a year earlier. He is presenting no new arguments to support the material’s inclusion - he is simply restating the same argument that was comprehensively rejected a year before.". Both articles were stable and had 0 conflicts prior to Atabek`s return.

Refuses to adhere to WP:BATTLEGROUND

Atabek refused to adhere to WP:BATTLEGROUND when attempting to justify his recent disruptive edits: just because there is a group of nationalist POV contributors who have intended and turned those articles into fabricated propaganda tool? [7]. Wikipedia is not a battleground was a proposed principle both in AA1 and AA2 [8], [9] and all users who were found to have not respected that policy were banned. [10], [11], [12].

Atabek's provocations

On AA2 proposed decision, on proposed principle, arbitrators have voted on a principle about provocations, this proposition was submitted by Fedayee in the Workshop, only three users had documented cases of provocation during the arbitration, the worst offender being Atabek, see one of the pieces of evidence submitted here. In spite that arbitrators have found significant reason to include such a proposed principle and having passed it, they did not find it necessary to impose any sanction on Atabek due to his continous provocations. What is the purpose of spending so much time and effort debating a topic, digging up references etc. when Atabek repeatedly ignores everything and just writes a line or two of redundant sentences full of buzzwords. These provocations still continue to this day, where Atabek continues to make edits knowing full well what sort of a reaction they are going to cause.

Proposed remedy

Atabek topic banned for a minimum of six months from all historical subjects. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 04:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Eupator has much room to accuse others. He himself has been repeatedly placed on parole, after the original one expired, for edit warring on topic related articles: [13] Which did not stop him from acting the same as before, this is his most recent edit war in violation of his parole: [14] I don't see Atabey doing anything like that. Also Eupator fails to mention that he himself was "nearly banned" during the first AA case. [15] So what is his point in mentioning that? Grandmaster (talk) 05:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I haven't. Not even once. Since the expiry of the the original sanctions I was blocked once and that was a mistake and I was promptly unblocked. Since the original AA1 sanctions expired no new sanctions have been applied against obviously, unlike you Grandmaster who was topic banned or Atabek. As for discretionary sanctions, they can be applied to all original parties of AA1 regardless of their actions since then. So lets stick to Atabek's current behaviour.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 14:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

GRBerry, the admin who closed the thread, said right on top: Eupator unblocked, put on clear notice about AA2 and as such subject to discretionary remedies under that case. So you must stick to your parole. As for Atabek, you demonstrated no violation of 1RR or any incivility on his part, but still want him banned from the topic. Grandmaster (talk) 15:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand, as a party of AA1 I was already subject to discretionary sanctions so are you and everyone else by default, that was merely the required warning before discretionary sanctions can be applied. I'm not under any specific editing restrictions, no parole or anything else so cease distorting the facts. I'm not reporting Atabek for violating 1RR (he's not even under 1RR restrictions) nor mainly about his incivility. Read the report again if it's still not clear for you.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

For one of the clearest examples of Atabek's (and Grandmaster's) WP:ICANTHEARYOU, see here [16] and here [17]. That said, I don't support a longtime ban on anyone - especially if you have to invoke the disgraceful AA2 to get it. What I would hope would be that administrators would start to confront the activites of Atabek and those like him with some intellectual rigour. Meowy 15:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I did not propose a ban via a long term block. I'm merely suggesting that he be topic banned from all historical topics for at least six months so that he can reassess his behaviour.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Historical topics are mostly what he does, and 6 months is a long time. But it is AA2 I object to. A bad law is not made good by its occasional justified use, that only makes the bad law more entrenched into the system. So I cannot support its use anytime. Meowy 16:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is no other forum at this point to refer this matter to. Given his history, I must say six months isn't long enough.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 16:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

There probably would be other ways, if administrators and the system were up to the task. I think following his edits on the Azeri-language Wikipedia could be useful. It will probably show he is not approaching many articles here with clean hands. Meowy 17:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

And what is criminal in editing articles in Azerbaijani wiki? Since when the rules do not allow people to edit other language wikis? Grandmaster (talk) 17:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I like how Eupator and Meowy always fail to mention their own role in what happened in the diffs they cite. For information, Meowy was the only one blocked for edit warring on Shusha pogrom. And I would really like someone to take some time to see what exactly happened there. To me, this is nothing but an attempt to get rid of an opponent by frivolous reporting, while those who report themselves committed much worse offenses. --Grandmaster (talk) 15:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but you and Atabek were blocked for 3 weeks from editing that article (and even banned from its talk page), a ban later extended to 4 weeks as a result of your blind refusal to accept the administrator's comments. It was the blind refusal to accept (or perhaps even read) my edit and talk page comments that got both of you the 3 week ban. As I said, one of the clearest examples of "ICANTHEARYOU". Meowy 16:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Which is the PRIMARY emphasis of this report, not slow and calculated edit warring but precisely that.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 16:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Neither me, nor Atabek were blocked, that's not true. This is the entire thread for everyone to see, please pay particular attention to the bottom of the report, a section called "Revision": [18] It is pretty obvious that an error in judgment was made back then, while the real offender was Meowy, who in the end was the only one actually blocked. Grandmaster (talk) 16:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You're free to have your own pov, unfortunately for you the facts laid out here do not support your pov. As for frivolous reports, you personally produce them at an alarming rate per year. I can't recall when is the last time I filed one, if ever. I doubt this soapboxing is going to divert the attention away from the true disruption.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Note to Administrators: Grandmaster is attempting to divert attention by trying to mislead administrators, check the several checkusers filed, Eupator knew already he was reverting a user who was using multiple socks by their behaviours. He was consequently unblocked, and I am not even including here how obviously several of those socks’ edits could have been qualified as vandalism. The second claim by Grandmaster is even more bogus, if we check the second diff Grandmaster provides, we see Eupator reverting a single purpose account who's only purpose was to insert and revert [19] on Melik article, to make the article similar to this one. Was it not Grandmaster who tried merging Malik with Melik and was opposed? Checking the talkpage we see what position this single purpose account was trying to impose: Grandmaster’s, Atabek’s and Adil’s. It is hardly the first time Grandmaster provides such misleading explanations to divert from the true disruption.

Grandmaster is also distorting intentionally by claiming that there was an error of judgement in the topic ban imposed against him and that Meowy was the only one blocked at the end. For a lack of a better word, he is intentionally lying. Thatcher's revision was not to revise the one month topic ban imposed against Grandmaster and Atabek, but to revise his decision on unblocking Meowy. Meowy was first blocked because it was found he failed to respect the restriction of 1 revert per week. Thatcher unblocked Meowy and then revised his decision because Meowy’s edit was technically a revert even though it wasn't obvious at all (he didn't know he was reverting). Thatcher admitted himself: Meowy, you are making the same mistake I did when I first analyzed the edits. Parishan and Atabek both added back De Waal and duplicated the casualty text. Look at this diff and the next one, and search for the text "when Azerbaijani soldiers suppressed an Armenian revolt" in both versions. Thatcher 02:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC) Thatcher finally reblocked Meowy for 15 more hours to equal the initial 24 hours block. [20]. But he never revised the one month topic ban as seen in the log here. In short, when Thatcher says that Grandmaster and Atabek were partially right, it was that technically Meowy’s edit could have been qualified as a revert. But this does not change the fact that neither of them have read what they have reverted when they have reinserted the duplicate and even perpetuated it. So according to Grandmaster a topic ban of one month (initially 3 weeks, but extended to 4 because they still refused to read others) is insignificant compared to a block of 24 hours for a technical revert, when Meowy’s intention wasn't even a revert at all.

Grandmaster has a long history of intentionally filing baseless charges against members to distract the attention from other members’ legitimate concerns on abuses. See here where I have provided evidence about this on AA2. It does not seem like he's changed his behaviour. See here, another documented case where Grandmaster ignores others' words. - Fedayee (talk) 04:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

So many nice words, thanks Fedayee. But first, no CU was ever filed on the user whom Eupator reverted 3 times in violation of his parole, so any attempt to link him to a banned user is baseless. The fact that the article Melik is a POV fork of the article Malik is quite obvious, and of course many people see that, and some may try to fix. But there's a group of users who guards this article and tries to present the Arabic title of Malik as something unique and used only by Armenians. As for Thatcher, I never agreed with his decision, and the fact that Meowy made 3 rvs in violation of his parole was clear to all other admins who reviewed the report. At the same time, neither me nor Atabek made any violations, and I did not make any reverts at all. So clearly this was an error in judgment, and Thatcher partially admitted it. This group of users always brings up their "evidence" that they submitted to various arbitration cases, but they forget to mention one minor detail - their "evidence" was rejected and no action was taken on the basis of it, which pretty much speaks for itself. And they accuse me of filing a baseless report, while themselves filing a baseless report on another user, citing no violation of 1RR or incivility, which are covered by the arbcom remedy. If this is not an attempt to get a rid of an opponent, then what is this? --Grandmaster (talk) 05:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The charges brought up are an obvious attempt to distract attention from this report. Adding established scholarly references to an encyclopedic article, without any personal attacks unlike those accusing me, does not constitute a violation. Unfortunately, my accusers in this thread hold the same POV in A-A related pages, are group warring across several topical pages. This isn't something new, and third parties are welcome to review Talk:Sahl Smbatean and Talk:Khachen to observe the lack of any willingness of these editors to engage in any discussion of references, but rather using angry and bad faith language [21] as evidenced in the report. Outside of that, I don't think either this report or my further responses to it will contribute anything to Wikipedia. My only request is that arbitrators carefully review and enforce the parole on editors who are being obviously incivil. This would greatly assist in future rather than targeting contributors. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 21:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If at all, the one that may need a break from editing these articles is Ευπάτωρ, which is my proposal. Look forward to hearing other comments from admins active on this board, as for the appropriateness of this ban. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Doing what Jossi recommended above, would perhaps be tantamount to the most single ludicrous thing I have ever heard or read on Wikipedia. And that means a lot coming from someone who has reserved patience and entrusted administrators to decide on the right thing for years now. Atabek has been exploiting Wikipedia for well over a year and at a time when he should be blocked for his provocative and disruptive edits, an administrator instead advocates that they punish a non-guilty party? Where is your partiality and are you even reading the evidence we are posting? We have laid more than enough evidence, documenting disruption and vandalism and that is the best you response you can come up with? Let's hope the rest of the administrators come to their senses because your proposal is outright ridiculous. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

All that is needed is to say "Resolved - No violation found". The complaint was brought in good faith (proved by the amount of effort Eupator would have taken to write it and the evidence he presented), but it was a bit too non-specific to ever succeed since many of Atabek's edits are non-disruptive, and those that are are often not intensive enough or are too complex and long-running to get the appropriate attention. Unfortunately for Eupator, it may be that admins don't like to be called for and then not get to swing the ban hammer at someone. I hope that is not going to be the outcome. Meowy 02:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay..., can we please have some other administrator express his opinion on the evidence, and this time, preferably, give a reason as to what he based it on? Otherwise, Jossi seemed to have just arbitrarily picked someone to punish without even elucidating on the hows and whys. An even better question: How did Atabek fall out of the equation of Jossi's comments? VartanM (talk) 16:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

On tenterhooks

I'm going to sleep. I'll review this mess and hopefully sort it all out in the morning. Moreschi (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Sort it all out in the morning" - doesn't a task of that magnitude require the abilities that usually come with superheros in skin-tight cotumes. I doubt any admin has those, though a few think they have, and some probably even have the costumes. Meowy 01:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Result

The relevant articles are Principality of Khachen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Sahl Smbatean (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). While this may seem a long way off from the Nagorno-Karabakh War, the location of the historical Khachen is also that of modern-day Nagorno-Karabakh, so from an Azeri point of view, if we can prove that Khachen cannot validly be called Armenian (the other candidate is Albanian), then Armenia's claims to NK could be considered less valid. The row at Sahl Smbatean is along similar lines. Essentially this is WP:BATTLEGROUND again.

• This drive-by insulting revert from Baku87 (talk · contribs) is not acceptable, especially considering his non-participation on the talk page. This merits 48h off.
• Atabəy (talk · contribs)'s editing at Talk:Principality of Khachen and Talk:Sahl Smbatean is classic tendentious editing. He comes back many months after the last dispute ended pushing the same rejected arguments as he did previously. While his arguments are not completely without merit, edits such as this are not supportable. I would have a lot more sympathy if he had tried to remove the ethnic description, which IMO is dubious, but to replace it with one which is clearly not founded in reality is very poor. Two pagebans, then.
• VartanM (talk · contribs) - Vartan, come on. While reverting here was justifed, the rhetoric in the edit summary doesn't help. You know better, and are lucky not to be blocked for that. Warned.

There is also a row going on at Caucasian Albania - in all honesty I haven't had time to properly check this out - in which MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) has apparently not stuck to 1RR. I am sure this was an oversight. Please stick to the general limitations in the future that everyone else does. Thank you. Moreschi (talk) 19:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Things are ok at Caucasian Albania now. We are currently discussing a compromise solution.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Please let me know if that one becomes problematic again. Moreschi (talk) 20:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Vacio

This user continues edit warring on AA related articles. In particular, he keeps on persistently removing a quote from an authoritative western scholar Robert H. Hewsen. Within the last 5 days he removed the reference to Hewsen 3 times from the article Artsakh. First time [22] the reference disappeared after his massive edits. I restored it, and Vacio removed the reference again without any edit summary: [23] Then he removed it once again: [24]

Note that after his edits the reference to this source disappears:

Robert H. Hewsen. "The Primary History of Armenia": An Examination of the Validity of an Immemorially Transmitted Historical Tradition. History in Africa, Vol. 2. (1975), pp. 91-100

It states that Hayk and Sisak were imaginary and not real persons. Obvious attempt to suppress information and promote certain POV. Note that Moresci advised the users in AA topic to voluntarily stick to 1rv per week, but Vacio keeps on reverting as many times as he likes. In a thread above Eupator says that Things are ok at Caucasian Albania now. We are currently discussing a compromise solution. And this is how the compromise was sought. Along came Vacio and removed the map that was being discussed, and replaced it with the one from some private website: [25] This was done without any compromise or prior discussion on talk of the article, and third party user Peregrine Fisher on [Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard] agreed that self-published maps should not be used in such topics: [26]. Vacio has been warned twice: [27] [28] I expect that this time the admins will take measures to ensure that this user stops edit warring on AA topics. Thanks. --Grandmaster (talk) 08:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Domer48

Domer48 has effectively claimed ownership of the template IrishL. With clear knowledge that I have a 'probation' under The Troubles Arbcom, it is my belief that Domer48 used this knowledge to game the system in order to keep his preferred version of the template.

The editor reverted my good faith edit to the template with no explanation given other than the edit comment "per talk", referring to a talk page that he had not yet edited. I reverted his revert, giving clear explanation again as to the rationale behind my edit, both in the edit summary and on the template's talk page. His own explanation, which he gave just before his second revert on the template's discussion page, was not satisfactory and my alternative was clearly a more appropriate symbol to use for the template. Domer48 did not accept this and, after my second revert of his revert, he reported me for breach of the ArbCom and subsequently reverted the template again to suit his own agenda.

When I say agenda, I mean a political agenda. The template covers the subject of Loyalism. The flag of Northern Ireland is not a specifically Loyalist symbol. My alternative was specifically Loyalist. Domer48 is amongst a group of editors who have campaigned tirelessly to have the flag of Northern Ireland removed from articles throughout Wikipedia, except in sports and apparently situations whereby the flag is shown in a negative light.

I am left in a position, due to an ArbCom ruling against me as a result of a case on suspected sock puppetry by a collaborator with Domer48 (which was not presented with the full facts), in which I am effectively unable to introduce balance to many articles, categories and templates because of a certain group's apparent avid patrolling of said articles. --Setanta747 (talk) 13:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Domer48 is currently blocked, and AE probably isn't the right place for this, this looks like a case of edit warring, content disputes, and disruptive behavior on a sensitive subject.--Tznkai (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

On a set of articles that have been subject to arbitration.Traditional unionist (talk) 13:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually I take that back, Domer48's behavior suggests to me he should probably placed on probation as well. Second opinions please?--Tznkai (talk) 13:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Could this be put on hold at least until Domer can edit again as he is currently blocked and at least he should be allowed to explain his edits. BigDunc^Talk 21:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't look like any decision will be taken soon, there is no reason why his edits cant be discussed in his absence, but of course natural justice dictates that he be given an opportunity to defend himself.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

On another note Northern Ireland does not have a flag except the Union Jack, Setanta747 is trying to portray the Ulster Banner as the official flag of NI and this matter has been discussed endlessly. BigDunc^Talk 21:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually this complaint has much more to do with Domer trying to portray the Northern Ireland flag as that of loyalist terrorism. This isn;t about Setanta's views on that flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Traditional unionist (talk • contribs)

I couldn't care less about the content dispute. If I consistently and earnestly edit with the belief that polar bears are blue and not white, that's not an issue as long as my behavior in pursuing that belief is not troublesome. It doesn't matter who is "right" it matters what conduct is pursued. As for the concerns about Domer being able to defend himself, I am willing to wait for him to say his piece, but an uninvolved administrator (thats me) has discretion to put editors on probation due to the relevant Arbitration case. I am fully willing to use that with as wide a net as the community desires.--Tznkai (talk) 22:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who dealt with this for over a year, Tznkai.. grab the biggest net you can.. and make it three times as big, and hope it's big enough. SirFozzie (talk) 00:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

[de-indent slightly & edit conflict] To BigDunc: Northern Ireland does have a flag - the flag of Northern Ireland is Northern Ireland's flag. It is an "official" flag. I'm not trying to "portray" anything. If you'd like to discuss it more, I'm happy enough to tell you the same facts, yet again. I hardly think this is the place to be doing so though. TU is right when he says that the notice is here to discuss Domer48's abuse of the flag and contemplate his possible abuse of the system and attitude etc.

At the time I posted this notice, I had been unaware that Domer48 had been blocked from editing. I made no recommendations or suggestions. I leave it to the community and/or admins to decide whether his behaviour warrants any kind of action. I also hope that this will pave the way for a sensible discussion about the template that has been mentioned, instead of just a cursory comment or two and a report (of me) to ArbCom. --Setanta747 (talk) 00:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I’m surprised this user hasn`t been spotted sooner, when you look at the history. It seems to me he is constantly fighting with every user he comes across who has a different opinion. When horns are locked a user is subjected to a vile and constant attack, which is obviously not the wikipedia way. Maybe this user should have a topic ban on all Irish related subjects --Rockybiggs (talk) 10:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

That would be a considerably more nuclear option.--Tznkai (talk) 12:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I would be inclined to take anything that Rockybiggs has to say regarding Domer with a pinch of salt, as this editors comments and troll actions against Domer can be seen here and it looks like an attempt to get one back. BigDunc^Talk 21:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Bigdunc, this is not true, just the same as user Setanta747 mentioned in the first paragraph (see [29]), i was subjected to a the same banning campagain by domer and his friends, which happens to be the same as the user who brought the allegations against Setanta747 which was One Night In Hackney. Thank you for bringing this matter up Big Dunc and i feel this further backs the claim Domer rallies peoples to his cause to cause problems on wikipeda. Also i would like to add this editor has got away with these actions for far too long, it seems to me he pushed serious editors to the extreme where they feel they have no other choice sometimes, and who are then sucked into allegations not of there making--Rockybiggs (talk) 08:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

(Undent) Just so you all know, my usual reaction to seeing accusations of groups of users taking sides is to squeeze them through dispute resolution, and to make sure any enforcement measures, say probation, be applied equally and all around until people prove themselves otherwise capable of operating outside it. In other words: be very careful about accusing other editors of teaming up against you!--Tznkai (talk) 12:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I am only observing and after seeing a administrator`s comments. see admins comments [30]

--Rockybiggs (talk) 14:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I have noticed a pattern on Irish articles. To a reader familiar with Irish matters the abuse is obvious. It's very clever and it appears to apply with policy and guideline until you examine it closely. I'm not saying it's a team effort but there are obviously some who monitor various articles to ensure they don't get changed from a particular POV. Woe betide the editor who challenges the status quo. The Thunderer (talk) 10:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's not pretend it's not happening from all sides, if not quite all users. SirFozzie (talk) 03:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

That's an issue as far as I'm concerned because I haven't seen it happening from all sides. Admittedly my experience is confined to a small number of articles but I have found that various editors use the same methodology to poison those articles with the synthesis being to persuade the reader that the police force and military forces in Northern Ireland were anti-Catholic. Being a realist, when I edit in information it is, in my mind anyway, factual and supported by refs. I then find that information is introduced in the way of "spin" and handy quotes from anti-British authors which try to refute the information I have included. That then means I have to introduce other material which shows how the spin works. The finished article is then full of allegation and counter allegation which does little to enhance the encyclopedic value of the item.The Thunderer (talk) 11:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem here Thunder is that you see the obviously anti-Nationalist "Security Forces" as not anti-Nationalist. And you try to put that "spin" on things. Sarah777 (talk) 14:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Ehhh! These British PoV -vs- Irish PoV arguments are all the same. GoodDay (talk) 14:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually Sarah the question of Nationalism doesn't come into it. The issue of "anti-Catholic" practices is the point. I don't shy away from anything which may appear to make the security forces seem anti-Catholic, however instances where they were patently NOT cannot be refuted by spin. That's my argument. So if the regimental history of the Ulster Defence Regiment states that Protestant politicians complained because 3 UDR was heavily Catholic and that promotion was difficult for Protestants because of the high number of Catholics then that needs to be in the article. Not because I like it, because it is a verifiable fact. Similarly, if the powers that be took action to prevent infiltration by Protestant paramilitaries then it also should be in the article, as should infiltration by Republicans. What the article can't be is an outright condemnation of the regiment nor should it be a statement by Sinn Fein or An Phoblacht to that effect. Articles are not a platform for political gerrymandering. They are for the input of verifiable encyclopedic knowledge. I respectfully request you bear all that in mind. The Thunderer (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

(undent) AE is not the place for content disputes. Get back on topic.--Tznkai (talk) 15:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I answered the comment by Sarah to indicate that my views and edits are non-partisan. Too many people make the mistake of thinking that everyone who edits on Northern Ireland articles is either Loyalist or Nationalist. There are some of us who were just born as either Protestants or Catholics and we have no political allegiances. This is the entire crux of this matter and whilst I agree that content disputes have no place here the reasoning behind them is the fundamental cause of edit-warring on Irish articles.The Thunderer (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Minor point Thunder - my bad, I conflated "Catholic" with "Nationalist". You did say "Catholic". Apologies. Sarah777 (talk) 18:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Ya'll should be atheist (like me), less hassle. GoodDay (talk) 16:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Born as either Protestants or Catholics"! Saddest think is that the person who just wrote that won't think there is anything wrong with it. Meowy 01:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Why on earth would you think there is something wrong with my statement? Perhaps you should think about what I'm saying rather than trying to read something subversive into it. The Thunderer (talk) 11:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You have just proved my point. People are not "born" Catholics or Protestants. Meowy 16:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to take this opportunity to address this point about being "born x or y". In Northern Ireland, unfortunately, this is in fact the case. When born there one becomes ostensibly Protestant or Roman Catholic depending on one's parents' religion (in the case of non-mixed marriages). The statistics and Census operations and the job application monitoring forms all take this into account, and assign you - effectively forcing the likes of myself, to declare a "community background". If this is not done, it is usually based on the primary school attended, or possibly on the parents.

It isn't a desirable thing and I have certain objections to it. Given the political climate though, it is unfortunately seen as necessary. I appreciate your attitude to it Meowy, but I also understand The Thunderer's meaning. While religion isn't genetically inherited (though it is often the case whereby the parents' religion is adopted by the children), when it comes to Northern Ireland, as the old joke suggests, you're either a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew! --Setanta747 (talk) 20:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I was aware of the cultural background, but not that that sort of thing was still so prevalent. Unfortunaltly it is the case (and always has been) that UK media studiously ignore Northern Ireland (you are more likely to see a program about Tuvalu on the BBC than one about Northern Ireland) so as not to upset anyone. But I doubt even religious leaders would find it possible to produce scriptural evidence to support a view that someone is "born Catholic". It is all just power and politics. I recall seeing a film about similar practices in Eire in the 1950s, based mostly on fact, where the Catholic Church considered that it "owned" a child whose mother was Protestant and whose father was Catholic but wanted the child brought up in his wife's faith. Eventually she was forced to flee and hide out in the Scotish Highlands, while, back in Ireland, local Catholics were whipped up into a frenziy against the area's few Protestants, blacklisting many of their businesses and eventually murdering one of them. Meowy 22:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

A Love Divided was the name of the film. Not a bad show, based on a true story and handled quite sensitively, I thought. BBC Northern Ireland tends to tackle Norhern Irish issues head-on and there are often current affairs programmes about the Troubles which are broadvast nationwide. Other than that, I agree with you - the media is certainly at least partially responsible for simplfying the divided notions along religious lines. Unfortunately, it's not without a grain of truth. Often people are labelled, even by people here in Northern Ireland, as Protestant (for example) even if they are in fact athiest. Yes - that still goes on today, despite the 'peace' we've enjoyed in recent years. --Setanta747 (talk) 23:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. That was the film I was remembering (sorry if I got some of the plot details wrong). I've seen very few nationwide broadcasts about NI, certainly nothing as detailed as to show current cultural issues like what you have been describing. IMHO, the BBC uses its "regional" stations just to marginalise material and subjects, while allowing the national broadcasting to continue as usual as the "EBC" (or "SofEBC"). But remember when the real voices of nationalist or IRA spokesmen couldn't be broadcast on British TV, and actors' voices had to be dubbed on to them! Until recently you couldn't even find maps of Northern Ireland in British libraries - they were all withdrawn from the public shelves in the 1970s and you could only view them in a few central libraries if you had security clearance and official credentials! Meowy 23:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The same editor has also described some editors as "rabid Irish bigot", and having been asked not to responds by saying it's very much a question of "if the cap fits - wear it!". Tznkai, since you are taking the lead on this one, could you outline what the issue is and we can address it point by point. Diff's always help, because comment and opinion makes it just go round in circules. --Domer48_'fenian' 08:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Who did I call a rabid Irish bigot then? Or did I just say it generally in a fit of frustration? Of course it must be pointed out that I am Irish too. What you're missing Domer is the fact that we don't need contstant reminders in articles of the "Republican struggle". Your most recent edits on Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary are exactly what I'm talking about. In articles which contain specific information about the fears of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland as well as an overview of how they were regarded politically, you feel it necessary to add in newspaper quotes stating their fears, without putting in any balance whatsover from the opposite POV. In other words, you are making the articles a condemnation of the existence of the organisations without letting the reader just deal in pure facts and making up their own mind. This is an encyclopedia, not a political platform.The Thunderer (talk) 11:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree Thunderer, that somes up the entire problem; some editors use wikipedia as a political platform for their own agendas and obviously try to spin the articles to that end.--Rockybiggs (talk) 12:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a political platform. rem POV on B Specials, corrected POV, Nationalist opinion is of no consequence..., Not correct at that time. A Republican POV. So its not just newspapers but respected authors also you have a problem with, most of which could not be described as Republican, quote the opposite. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Enough is enough

Since this dead mouse has been laid at my feet, I'm going to have to clean this mess up my way.

From this point forward, I will take any unprofessional or uncivil commentary on this AE thread as further evidence that you need to be placed on discretionary sanctions. Furthermore, any further airing of content disputes on this thread, or accusations of bad faith or similar motivations will constitute unprofessional and uncivil conduct. I want two things, and two things only from the complainants.

1. Specified diffs of bad conduct. I don't care about motivations, our supposed POV, and I certainly am not interested in accusations of cabalism or meat/sockpuppetry, or admin repression of your rights. I'm looking for edit warring, genuine personal attacks, confirmed sockpuppets and similar bad conduct.
2. I want a short consise statement why you should not be put under sanction yourself.

Some Caveats:

• Do not bother quoting policy to me, I know it as well as you do.
• Bickering will be taken as evidence of unprofessional or uncivil conduct
• Limit yourself to the month of September if at all possible
• Limit yourself to short concise statements, if it is too long I will remove and ask you to try out again.
• Be on your very best behavior. You are proving to me that you are not going to disrupt Wikipedia or Irish related articles.

If you've commented on this thread in any capacity, and you're an editor on the Irish articles, you probably want to respond. I'll be digging through page histories in the meantime, and any other admin wants to handle this, feel free to step in.--Tznkai (talk) 12:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Ye Rocky some editors use wikipedia as a political platform for their own agendas and obviously try to spin the articles to that end. You'd know all about that? As for your comments to me lol Vandalism - don’t make me laugh your an IRA supporter and then RV Domer IRA POV comments as usual from this user says so much more than I could. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Tznkai, welcome to my world, genuine personal attacks, confirmed as outlined above. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Domer48 for bringing those edits up, which i was totally (over the top) punished for these edits which you say above, by your friends of a 3 month ban and a ban on all Irish related articles (still in place). Your constant ownership of these files is the problem. I have no further comments to make on this board as all i say is i welcome Tznkai comments earlier that everyone will be subject to punishments and trust this will be as severe as the over the top punishments given to me --Rockybiggs (talk) 13:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel I should be put under any sanctions. I've contributed good material in a non POV way to the couple of articles I do edit. My interest isn't so much in Irish matters but rather military and as soon as I'm finished with the three articles where there's a crossover I'm on my way, unless I find something else in Irish military history which interests me. To be honest I'm getting fed up with the whole thing and might just quietly disappear.The Thunderer (talk) 16:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

So what's it gonna be? is Domer gonna be barred from Irish articles for a period of time? or at least barred from the Template in question? GoodDay (talk) 18:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I have been asked by Tankzi to comment here. My view is that an "Irish" article ban for Domer would be pure censorship, and wrong in a very profound and anti-WP:NPOV way. Apart from "abusing" the template contesting his block what did he do? I'll need to read up on this as I'm obviously missing some of Domer's "crimes". Sarah777 (talk) 18:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I too, am not familiar with Domer's conduct (weither it's good or bad) on Wikipedia. Best I excuse myself from this AE report. GoodDay (talk) 18:44, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

[De-indent] I have been invited to comment on this report. To be honest, I haven't really anything to add. I am not interested in the bickering about flags, the UDR, the IRA, who's "anti-this" or "anti-that", Loyalists, Republicans, unionists, nationalists, or who called who what. I'm interested in the report I made about this particular user. I'm not even interested in the last report made against me by this same user - that has been done, dusted and dealt with and I have 'served my time', as it were.

I am interested in whether the user can be seen to have been gaming the system, to have inadequately responded to a good faith edit (by me) on the template in question and to have done so with full knowledge that his intransigence would win out due to the fact that he was fully aware of the probation against me and that any attempt I made to revise the template would result in both a block against me and the maintaining of the status quo with regard to the article. I am interested in whether it can be seen that the editor was involved in edit warring and, as such, was in breach of the ArbCom against us all. Also, I reported the editor to see whether it can be determined that he claims ownership of many articles. The main point though, is that Domer's actions regarding the template removed the possibility of any progress being made. I had presented a perfectly satisfactory alternative and Domer rejected it out-of-hand.

As regard to Tznkai's suggestion that others be given sanctions, this case is about a specific user - not about others, nor is it about tag-teaming etc. I have been quite straightforward and highlighted recent actions taken against myself.

As TheThunderer has hinted at, the atmosphere that has developed regarding articles relating to Northern Ireland, since January of 2007 has discouraged editors from tackling issues that need sorting, and even from editing Wikipedia. Some of these editors, from all and no political perspectives, have made decent, substantial and valuable contributions to Wikipedia.

I realise this contribution to the discussion has not been particularly concise. I hope, though, that all the points I have made will be taken into consideration: this should not necessarily be a re-hash of the Troubles ArbCom (if necessary, that can be addressed again separately). This case is about an individual editor. Note also, that I have not requested a ban on the editor of the editing of all articles relating to Northern Ireland. The proper course of action, should any action be considered appropriate of necessary, I leave up to a closing admin and/or the community. --Setanta747 (talk) 20:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

A quick look at the edit history here, and my use of the talk page here should be enough to address the allagation of me gaming the system. It should also address the allagation "Domer48 has effectively claimed ownership of the template IrishL." Now it is my opinion, that if Setanta747 accepts that this flag represents only one of the Loyalist groups the Loyalist Volunteer Force, and this one is representative of all Loyalist groups (since they all use it) there will not be a problem. The alternative, is to have no flag. The main difficulty Setanta747 has is "The flag of Northern Ireland is not a specifically Loyalist symbol." As has been pointed out countless times [31], [32], [33], this flag is not the flag of Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland dose not have a flag. I do welcome Setanta747 statement that "I am not interested in the bickering about flags, the UDR, the IRA, who's "anti-this" or "anti-that", Loyalists, Republicans, unionists, nationalists, or who called who what." So we can put all this behind us. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The edit histories are very interesting. If I could be bothered I could post rather a lot of links but rather than waste my time doing so and leaving myself open to any allegation, I'll content myself with asking; if you;re not that bothered about ownership of articles and your edits are non-partisan, why make a comment like "Negative material must be balanced by positive material," and just what policy is that in? The Ulster Defence Regiment are discredited. --Domer48 (talk) 17:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC) which can be found here. The entire talk page of that article reads like a terrible condemnation of the attitudes of some editors here and your comments have not been laudable Domer. We can see you and several others tearing lumps out of a new editor and making terrible personal attacks on him. I can see no reason for that other than trying to game him. The Thunderer (talk) 22:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, I hadn't wanted to get involved in the intricacies of the usage of the flag here - that should have been done on the talk page of the template, at the time. However, as you have raised issues here, I shall respond to each of them.

Your sparse discussion on the template talk page may well indeed be evidence enough for the case.

Northern Ireland does have a flag - it is the flag of Northern Ireland, as has been pointed out countless times. It is not representative of Loyalists as, while it may be used by most, or even all Loyalist groups, it is not specifically Loyalist. Nor is it used solely by Loyalists.

I have no idea why you point to the sock puppetry allegation against me in the context of "putting things behind us". It seems to me that by pointing it out, this is precisely the opposite of what you are doing here, and quite unnecessary.

I would be happy for all the related templates to have these symbols removed - there are precedents for templates not including any kind of graphic. It might perhaps have been useful if you had mentioned this option before you decided to report me under the Troubles ArbCom - perhaps saving both of us a lot of time and effort. However, I don't see why you would have an objection to the use of a specifically Loyalist flag in the infobox, instead of the flag which you should know is used by non-Loyalists. --Setanta747 (talk) 23:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, Tznkai's already tried to bring this back on topic once, it's my turn. Unless you have sourced diffs of bad behaviour amongst other editors (and also a reason why, if you're involved, why YOU shouldn't be put under sanction), don't say anything. This is NOT the place to refight content battles or old wars. Enough is not enough, in this case.. it's Way too *@)$&@) much. I wouldn't be surprised if the decision is to place everyone involved in content disputes in this thread on restriction, because none of you can get along with each other long enough to get squadoosh done. SirFozzie (talk) 23:14, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

So what you're saying basically is that we have to spend our time finding fault with others rather than defending our own neutrality? Hardly productive. You can count me out of this discussion as of now. I'll edit articles and deal with problems through the correct channels. The Thunderer (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm saying it's two fold. Show WHY A) You should not be put under Troubles sanctions, and B) why anyone else SHOULD be put under sanctions. Tznkai, AND myself have had quite enough of this circular mud throwing fest. SirFozzie (talk) 00:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

As I was asked to respond here I will only say this as I really could not be arsed with this nonsense anymore. Until an editor can supply some diffs which show that I broke any wiki policy I will not comment any further. If there are some diffs that can be dragged up I will respond to them. Because as far as I am concerened I have not breached anything that would warrent sanctions being placed on me and as Thunderer says I don't want to start digging around to get other editors placed on probation either. All this needs is an admin who is willing to enforce policy that we have already without making a James Cagney movie out of it. BigDunc^Talk 08:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Now it's my turn: this report is about a specific editor. It is not about BigDunc. Nor is it about The Thunderer. Nor is it about any other editor who has ever been so bold as to edit an article relating to Northern Ireland. As the headline suggests, this case is about Domer48. --Setanta747 (talk) 09:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Not anymore. Standard etiquette, procedure, and common sense all dictate that I look not only at the original target of the complaint, but all the editors on all of the affected articles. This thread has been full of accusation and cross accusation, and generally bad behavior all around. As SirFozzie suggested I have had more than enough. I am going to cast this net as wide as necessary. The conduct in this thread has given me more than sufficient suspicion of your incapability to work in a civil fashion, and I'm digging through article and contribution histories to confirm or deny that suspicion.--Tznkai (talk) 12:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

And who is that directed at Tznkai? BigDunc^Talk 13:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much everyone who commented in this thread except SirFozzie, who as far as I know, has not edited any of the articles in the locus of dispute. And possibly Meowy, who just seems to be here to argue about religion, I can't find any significant interaction on the Ireland pages just yet.--Tznkai (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Well would it not be wise to inform everyone involved and not just those who have commented here that they are facing possible sanctions? And I do hope you have a lot of free time because I doubt I am not alone in wanting to see diffs for any wrongdoings that I am alleged to have commited. And I'm sure that goes for Thunderer, Domer, Traditional unionist and any other editor. BigDunc^Talk 13:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

From my perspective there were only two editors I had issues with. BigDunc and Domer. BigDunc and I have come to a workable understanding whereas Domer and I haven't. That means all my issues at the minute are with Domer on two articles Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary. The page histories there tell the story but I'm not going to list it all point by point. What I suggested to another admin is that someone should be appointed as "custodian" of those two articles to ensure non POV editing. I stand by that comment because I feel my editing IS non POV and no doubt Domer feels the same. The Thunderer (talk) 16:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

First of, this needs to be cleared up. I maintain that The Thunderer is GDD1000, and he had also been using IP’s. 82.41.187.226 was an IP being used by GDD1000 in May based on this talk page post and this admission. 82.41.187.226 then made this edit, which The Thunderer took responsibility for in this edit so they are clearly the same person. In addition, 81.149.73.79 and GDD1000 are also the same person. GDD1000's first edits were as an IP, such as this at 15:39, 10 April 2008. Both IPs and The Thunderer were editing the article on 29 July, this is clearly not a permitted use of sockpuppets, especially considering the GDD1000 account is not being used. The accusations of sockpuppetry were met by responses of "stupid comments by some paranoid person" and "deleted stupid stuff - obviously a wind up", showing this person has no intention of being honest when confronted with evidence of his flagrant abuse of sockpuppets. Once this is sorted, I will start to provide diff's which show that The Thunderer has a major conflict of interest and has been the cause of major disruption on the Wikipedia articles Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary, such as attempting to remove negative information despite it being sourced. In the intrest of fairness, this has to be addressed. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

"In the interests of fairness", you need to quit beating this dead horse, Domer48. I'm blue in the face pointing out that there is no abusive sock-puppetry going on here. None!. Seriously, there isn't. Let it go, let it drop, leave the man be already. Address your issues with the man and describe the "major disruption" he's perpetrating on the project if you must, rather than banging this old drum again. It's a fascinating investigation, I'm sure, but completely irrelevant to the topic at hand here - Alison ^❤ 19:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Alison this discussion is taking place here because of what has been happening on the Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary articles. It is completely relevant to the topic at hand, or are you suggesting that the edits of GDD1000 or the IP's have no bearing on how we ended up here. Now Tznkai is reviewing the edits on the articles, and has asked us to raise our concerns here. I have, and it is my opinion that the editors are the same person, and have been attempting to remove negative information despite it being sourced. Now I'm willing to drop the "abusive sock-puppetry" if they put their hand up and say they are the same person. Why don't you tell Tznkai about the amount of socks I've had on my case no matter what article I go on and the crap I've had to put up with. If I drop my user name, do I get to come back with a clean slate? --Domer48_'fenian' 20:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

That's mighty big of you, Domer, but might I suggest that dropping the 'abusive sock' label is not your call, nor should you be dangling it over that editor's head like that. It's a catch-22 for him. If he says it's not or says nothing, you'll keep beating up on him as you are, if he does, you get to crow "aha!!!" and declare he has some COI or other. Not fair. Right now, I'm seeing your name on the title of this section, not GDD1000 or The Thunderer's. I strongly suggest you focus on the article issues here and whatever's going on rather than focusing on the person or persons, as you are wont to do - Alison ^❤ 20:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Do I get a clean slate if I drop my user name? --Domer48_'fenian' 20:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

You get a clean slate if you drop your old username and never edit an Irish/whatever it if got you in trouble-themed article under a new name. Otherwise, no. MBisanz ^talk 20:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

That's entirely dependent on circumstances, MBisanz. There are other reasons (and feel free to email me on that) - Alison ^❤ 20:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Ahh yes, I was going with the usual reasons, but probably if someone is under ArbCom sanction AND at AE, the usual situation does not apply. MBisanz ^talk 20:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Domer - not with your block log, no, unless there were extenuating circumstances :p - Alison ^❤ 20:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

It is very much worth noting that GDD1000 disappeared after what has been described as bullying by......errr.......Domer.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that MBisanz, I thought as much. When an editor has a long history of disruption, gross POV editing, edit warring and copyright violations, it should not be permitted for them to try and get a clean start under a new name, and deceive other editors by editing the same article pretending to be a brand new editor. Alison dose however have an idea of what my problem is, suggesting that I will "declare he has some COI or other." Now accusing me of "beating up on him" is not going to wash with me. Check the article talk page history from here down, when I went back onto the article. Not once did I comment on the editor, only the edits. They however never let up on me with their accusations. Alison the wiki answer to everything is not "email me on that" lets keep it all open. Now this section is no longer just about me Alison. Let Tznkai do their job. TU as usual you have it all wrong. They gave their reasons here on the top of their talk page why they left. And who were the two editors they blamed for it Fozz and Kylu, not me. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Nah, Alison's a checkuser, she says there is a private reason that would indicate against you restarting under an alternate account, that is good enough reason for me. Now back to the topic of your behavior, if I am reading your statement correctly, you are still confusing GDD1000 and other current editors, can we please stop the insinuation that current editors are this retired dude? MBisanz ^talk 21:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I will not be dropping it. It is completely relevant to the topic at hand, the edits of GDD1000 and the IP's have a bearing on how we ended up here. I will also be bring up my block log in this discussion, and emails I've recived. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, fine, apparently I was not clear. You made accusations of sockpuppetry, a checkuser investigated them using technical tools and found there to be no abusive sockpuppetry. Continuing such accusations subsequent to the checkuser results is harassment of the accused. If such accusations continue, the party making them will be blocked for harassing another editor. Is that clear? MBisanz ^talk 21:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh for crying out loud, Domer48 is hereby put under discretionary probation based on his conduct in this thread alone. Furthermore, he is blocked for 72 hours, which I will consider undoing if he promises to be super civil and professional and stop talking about sock puppetry.--Tznkai (talk) 22:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Remedies

Enacted

• Domer48 (talk · contribs) blocked for 72 hours for gross incivility and disruptive editing, may request unblock.
• Domer48 (talk · contribs) placed under indefinite probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles, because of disruptive edit warring and inability to compromise and cooperate instead of edit warring.
• All editors on Troubles related articles are directed to get outside opinions. Preferably someone from China. Perhaps Angola.

• The Thunderer (talk · contribs) put on 2 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring.
• BigDunc (talk · contribs) put on 2 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring.
• Sarah777 (talk · contribs) put on 1 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring.
• Traditional unionist (talk · contribs) put on 1 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring.
• Any editor found taking advantage of these discretionary sanctions is immediately blocked for 1 week, put under discretionary sanctions indefinitely, and referred to the community for an indefinite topic ban.
• Any editor found violating these discretionary sanctions will have their probation reset and extended to double previous term immediately, then referred to the community for consideration of a topic ban.
• Unless otherwise stated, probation is as described under "Terms of probation" Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Enforcement with the following caveats and clarifications
  • Any article or edit that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under the reversion restriction. When in doubt, assume it is related.
  • Clear vandalism may be reverted without penalty
  • Rollback should not be used on related articles
  • Reversions are roughly defined as changing a page so it is substantively the same as a previous version. Consult WP:3RR for guidelines, but apply a healthy dose of common sense.
  • When in doubt, don't revert.

Proposed

• Discretionary sanctions will be shortened by two weeks upon completion of a voluntary self-topic banning for the same.

Other notes

I'm not done yet, these are based on preliminary findings.--Tznkai (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The permanent probation for Domer is certainly the right move - we've had many problems with him The Toubles area - He was recently banned from the Irish Famine page for two months. I see 2 months is proposed for Dunc - That's fair, I think a permanent parole would also have been fair but I guess there's no harm in giving him one final chance. Sarah777 can be a fantastic editor, but I see so much edit warring and random reverts - This for instance, I really don't get why it needed to be reverted without explanation. She accuses many of British POV pushing yet she's the one pushing Irish POV. One month seems reasonable, but a caution should go with it that further disruption on these articles will not be tolerated in the future. I must admit, I haven't come into contact with The Thunderer or Traditional Unionist before so it's not fair that I comment on them. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 23:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

One or two problems there Ryan (1) I didn't edit war; (2) She accuses many of British POV pushing yet she's the one pushing Irish POV - you've just accused me of pushing Irish POV; how come you are allowed do that? (Your 'summary' above is merely your opinion, btw, and is wrong). (3) disruption on these articles - what disruption?; diffs please. (4) You have now banned yet another Irish editor (Domer) for trying to remove British POV from articles - thus Wiki's famed "consensus is achieved. How it's done; you take the majority pov and then systematically block and ban all editors who try to introduce balance, thus maintaining a permanent majority for the unchallanged insertion of thr dominant Anglo-American POV. Sarah777 (talk) 09:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

...er Ryan, This is reverting vandalism - I am not sure if it could be more obvious. Lucian Sunday (talk) 00:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed it is - I was looking at that all wrong, I thought she was reverting all that. Struck. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 08:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd of gone a bit longer on Domer's block, but all the proposed and enacted sanctions appear fair and of the minimum degree to ensure harmonious content creation. MBisanz ^talk 00:24, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

In case it needed to be said, please bring any problems with any of these users or the related articles to my attention via my talk page, e-mail, or IRC, preferably in that order. --Tznkai (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

er, where is the recent edit warring by the thunderer? I had a good enail exchange with them after declining the last unblock request and they clearly understood they had gone too far and had learned their lesson. A quick look at recent contribs doesn't suggest they restarted edit warring so why the probation? Maybe I'm just being dim but where is the recent edit warring by them? Spartaz ^Humbug! 05:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

While your jumping to The Thunderer defence Spartaz could you show me where I have been edit warring too. BigDunc^Talk 08:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice assumption of bad faith there but I did look at your contribs and they are equally as clean. Tznkai, please can you address this issue. Why have you raised probations for edit warring on users who do not appear to have been edit warring in the last week? Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

For one example, the bottom of this history here[34] (Circa Sept 20th). For another example, all the nonsense on this thread is the "disruptive" part of the warring. I'll put up a more complete report soon.--Tznkai (talk)

Bliocks have already been served for that incident and contributions have been free from edit warring since. I strongly protest. This is a clear case of double jeopardy and I'm also not seeing recent evidence of unacceptable disruption from bigdunc. Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm unaware we had a double jeopardy policy. This isn't a moot court, despite my use of certain formalities and the Arbcom occasionally acting like one. These remedies are meant to 1. deal with the original complaint, 2. deal with surrounding and entangling disruptions and 3. deal with the heart of the issue. Not one of these editors I've placed on sanction, including BigDunc has shown me the ability to cooperate and productively push forward in creating a better wiki left alone. Remember, this complaint surfaced on the 23rd, and I made it clear that I was looking at the whole month of September at the very least. This complaint has been open a full week, and everyone had a chance to step up then.--Tznkai (talk) 15:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't see where you're coming from with those comments. My intent all along, and I've made it clear, is to produce a better wiki. As far as I can see all I've been doing is standing up for myself in the face of some very determined opposition who, using their much better knowledge of the system, have been able to run rings around me. My comments below nodded acquiesence to what you've done without complaint and now you are saying I'm not co-operative? While I appreciate you don't know the entire story and don't have the time to research it all, surely you can also understand that some of us have better things to do than spend time formulating what are quite complex complaints? All I want to do is contribute without causing problems, or having problems caused for me by people who are gaming the system to my disadvantage. I've given you your place and all I want in return is to have fair dealings with you. The Thunderer (talk) 16:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Edit wars take multiple people. Even if you are being ganged up on (which has been suggested to me by more than one person) that doesn't change the facts that the confluence of all of these editors has resulted in edit wars, and generalized disruption to the wiki. Thus, a wide net.

I have no intention of divvying up blame, merely an intention to stop this warring in its tracks. This seems to be the fairest and most minimal sanction option I have available to me that I think will work. Part of being an effective Wikipedian is being able to walk away from edit wars and disputes instead of fighting them. This is more important than any single policy. There are countless users on this wiki who can and will pick up the slack, given the time and opportunity. Wikipedia at large, in my estimation is sick of the lot of you, and it is in my estimation because of repeated failures to disengage.

From this point forward, as far as I am concerned, there is a clean slate. You follow the rules of your probation, you conduct yourself in civil, "professional" manners, and probation dissipates and you're left on your way with no ill blood.

This message has been in response to all sanctioned editors.--Tznkai (talk) 16:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with the way you have gone about this. There is no evidence provided for the sweeping probations you have dished out and the terms of the probation are completely undefined. Where are we 1RR, 0RR, article bans, civility probation? What? You clearly have not researched this issue enough to know who is currently a problem and who is not and have just come in and slapped on some very vague and sweeping sanctions on editors who are not currently edit warring, are not being disruptive and who have shown that they can respond rationally to clear instructions and limitations. I'm shocked that you think its OK to sanction an editor who has served their block and is behaving and another who has never been blocked for anything who is also not currently disrupting the project. So please properly document this decision so we can discuss it, decide on whether they stand up and if not give the victims of the decision a basis to appeal it if they wish. Right now I have no confidence that you have made the right call here and I really feel that you are being unfair and unjust. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The terms of the probation are in the Arbcom case. They are rather uniform. As for the rest, its rapidly apparent through various diffs provided, my talk page, and this thread that these editors have an excess of hostility and are short on cooperation. I would also point to the voices above who have voiced their support of this measure. But hey, I'm willing to listen to your suggestion on how this should've been dealt with.--Tznkai (talk) 19:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing enormous support for the probation for DigDunc and the Thunderer, in fact, Ryan specifically excludes them from his endorsement. I looked through their contribs and I'm not seeing any current issues, neither is edit warring and I wouldn't say either is being particularly disruptive. I absolutely endorse the probation onf Domer48 (in fact I'd support a ban at this point) but I personally feel that the probation on the two editors I have cited does not reflect their current editing. I'd suggest lifting the probation with an understanding that it will be immediately reinstated if their editing deteriates and I'm happy to keep an eye on their contribs and, if necessary, impose the probation myself if this will reassure you on this point. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:24, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Spartaz, I would certainly agree with that. I'm sure they both now understand the severity of the problem, and what would happen if they were to disrupt these articles in the future. It could be a final warning to all parties. I do fully support the probation of Domer however, he's passed his final warning. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 10:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) So what you're basically saying is that I, as a new editor who hadn't got a clue how to work the system and gets put upon very soundly, as you would appear to have concurred from discussions with other admins, I'm tarred with the same brush as everyone else and you're sick of me? Or have I misunderstood your intent? The Thunderer (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer come on please. BigDunc^Talk 18:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not being uncivil. I just find it rather strange that an admin would allege that the entire encyclopedia is sick of all of us when the ins and outs of this affair would defeat a leading QC. The Thunderer (talk) 18:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Tznkai i think you have been very fair with a very difficult situation administering everyone here. Further to user Ryan Postlethwaite comments regarding the edit warring of user Sarah777, I would also like to add that this user is less than cival on the talk pages with this shocking statement comparing British people to Nazi`s here [35] and a futher more worrying comment here [36] which was commented on by a admin as being racist here [37]--Rockybiggs (talk) 08:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

My honest opinion on all this? I don't believe it's perfect but if it stops all the nonsense I'll run with it without complaint.The Thunderer (talk) 10:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to sdee where I've been adit warring. I haven't been editing as much in the past 8 or 10 weeks.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

• My thoughts - I think it'd be useful just to try this out for the time that Tznkai has indicated. Whilst it may be true that some of the editors involved haven't been edit-warring recently, I think we all know that those identified by Tznkai have been guilty of the same at some point. If it works, that's great and we can formulate some sort of strategy to move forward on these articles. If it doesn't, let's try something else. Black Kite 20:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Black Kite I have done all that you asked since we came in to contact and have not broken my undertaking with you, would you not agree looking at my edit history? BigDunc^Talk 20:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Dunc, I think the point is - don't think of this as a sanction on you or some of the others (apart from Domer48, but I think that's correct). After all, probation is just a stricter limit on editors not doing what they shouldn't be doing anyway, and even if we have to probate a large group of users in order to attempt to cut out the unproductive edit-warring over the wider range of Troubles articles, is it not at least worth a try? Black Kite 20:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

No not to this extent if an editor is breaching policy then block them it is that simple what is needed is an admin to step up to the plate, sweeping sanctions against editors who have not been edit warring is wrong IMO. BigDunc^Talk 21:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

(Undent) I've added some clarifications on the probation terms.--Tznkai (talk) 00:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you considered my comment above? Spartaz ^Humbug! 05:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I have, and my basic problem with it? I don't think it'll work. I've been reviewing the block logs and digging deeper into the background, talking to people etc, and the more I hear and the more I see, the more it suggests to me that all of the editors I've blocked have been adding fuel to the edit wars. The basic misunderstanding here by the sanctioned seems to be the proper response to edit warring and perceived POV pushing. That is, to sit down, drink the beverage of your choice, and ask for a third opinion. Or something else. Perhaps edit Camel or something. Edit warring is never the proper response. These are not punitive measures, but preventative ones, and there is reason to believe that yet another "FINAL WARNING!" will not work to prevent the problem. Block logs, edit history, and the complete inability of the participants to stay on topic when asked in this thread, all point to a serious and deep set problem.

Keeping an eye on them is going to be incredibly difficult, especially since the people who watch these editors the most, are the editors they're warring with. As BlackKite said, the probation is a formal restriction to do things a good, civil editor with any sort professionalism (or common sense for that matter) would do voluntarily anyway. I will consider your proposal more as I continue to investigate and gather opinions, but right now from where I sit, the histories show that the brief lull in disruption is not sufficient reason compared to the long history of edit warring. This lull that you see does not coincide with any apparent change in outlook or behavior. If it did, or if someone showed me it did, I will be much more willing loosen up probation lengths.--Tznkai (talk) 11:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: I see middling opposition to the probationary right now, but some support, and also consensus by silence, which is by its nature weak. I'll continue digging, put up the requested diffs and analysis, and then if we feel necessary, we can request for comment and/or check in with the appropriate notice boards.--Tznkai (talk) 11:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

That says an awful lot that you even consider such a thing as consensus by silence exists. There is no defence against that. BigDunc^Talk 17:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Domer has something he wishes to shareUser_talk:Domer48#Needs_to_be_posted_on_ANI--Tznkai (talk) 17:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Tznkai I'm really not seeing any overwhelming support for your probation on these two editors and Ryan now supports my proposal. Where there is no clear consensus either the probation is not supported or we need further eyes on this. I'm disturbed that you are unwilling to consider compromise. I'm therefore asking you to again consider my suggestion. If you still feel unable to change your decision I am contemplating seeking further eyes from ANI or following the set procedures and appealing your action to Arbcom. Please think about it and let me know how you wish to proceed. Obviously this would be overtaken if there were a clear consensus from other éditors how/where we should go on this. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Disagreeing with your suggestion doesn't mean I'm unwilling to compromise, it means I disagree with your suggestion. (As I indicated already) I have no problem bringing more eyes into this, and if you want to appeal my action to Arbcom go right ahead. In the meantime, I'm going to write up a report on the situation, finish answering the questions on my talk page, and respond to various e-mails I've been receiving.--Tznkai (talk) 20:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

If you are not prepared to consider lifting the probation in favour of it being reintroduced at the first incidence of poor behaviour I can't really see what possible compromise you are considering. Please can you write up your report and then I'll link it from ANI and get some more eyes on to this. Spartaz ^Humbug! 20:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Ideally, it'll be up tonight after I buy food and eat dinner. Also, AN is preferable to ANI in my opinion.--Tznkai (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Working on it now at User:Tznkai/desk/Reports/The Troubles 9-30-08 Sanctions--Tznkai (talk) 23:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Real life commitments and a mortal body prevent me from spending the wee hours of the morning finishing this report, but I rushed through the BigDunc section to give you an idea of where I was coming from. The Thunderer was involved in almost all of the reported issues with BigDunc, and quite a few more with Domer48, at least as far as Prong A problems go.

As I alluded to in the unfinished conclusion of the report, I have considered what the future and alternative of these sanctions would be. If there was some sort of mentorship or mediation process that would have the preventive effect that probation would, that is excellent: but outside of my immediate discretion. The parties involved would have to agree to it on their own. Quite frankly, I was hoping one of them would offer up the idea themselves. Failing that however, if the probation has its desired effect before the terms on probation expire, and were willing to demonstrate it, I would have no problem with the probation being rescinded early.

It has been alluded to me by a few of the parties that some sort of voluntary working editing agreement would be possible. That would certainly be a way forward towards reduced or eliminated sanctions.--Tznkai (talk) 04:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

My concern is that an overly-broad approach will ensure that little productive editing happens on Troubles-related material for the duration of the sanctions, and perhaps beyond. My colleagues are happy with the current absence of edit-warring on the Famine article. But really it's the silence of the grave, witness the total lack of response to this. I'd sooner have less peace and quiet and more progress on the encyclopedia stuff. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion, and quite possibly on my part, but it is my understanding that probationary terms are mandates to stop reverting, not to stop editing in its entirely. The purpose is to slow down, not stop editing.--Tznkai (talk) 12:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

1RR is an idea for restrictions on Troubles-related articles. Afterall, who's gonna make revert, only to see their opposing editor revert them? GoodDay (talk) 13:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"1RR" is an ambiguous standard. The name inplies it is a variation on WP:3RR, and so would allow one revert per day. However the text at WP:1RR seems to indicate it allows only one ever. Whenever "1RR" is mentioned it's necessary to specify which meaning is intended. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

A 1RR restriction is not ambiguous at all and is applied in many ArbCom cases. The WP:1RR page is an essay is not a guideline or a policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

We need totally clear and unambiguous rules here; the very last thing we need is random Admins making it up as they go along as per Tznkai (and many others). Sarah777 (talk) 23:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment from Rockpocket

I've been following this discussion for afar, but feel now is perhaps the time to comment. I have a "history" of administrative interaction with Domer, BigDunc, Sarah and to a lesser extent, Traditional Unionist, on the Troubles issues. I was approached recently to try and mediate the attempts of Domer and Dunc to edit the UDR article in concert with The Thunderer (who was new to me at that time). My efforts can be seen on that talk page. What is not apparent, though, is that I have engaged in email discussions with all three privately and independently. It was the insight of those that I think may be helpful to inform this discussion.

Firstly I can confirm that a while back BigDunc came to me with concerns that he was being accused to tag-teaming (with Domer). He assured me that was not his intention and asked for advice how to avoid it. I offered some advice and for the last few months I have seen evidence in his editing that suggests he has been making efforts to follow that advice. There was no big announcement of his intention to change, simply an editor appreciating that his actions are seen to be problematic and setting out to try and address it. This should be acknowledged and it has not gone unnoticed by even those that tend to oppose BigDunc [38] on many issues. Its seems to me that there is a danger of (for want of a better word) "punishing" an editor for past indiscretions, when he has already made a real effort to address the problem. Sanctioning Dunc would be highly counterproductive at this time, in my opinion.

With regards to Domer. My interaction with him suggest that he was really trying to keep his edits in check, stay policy compliant and work with The Thunderer on that article. He appears to appreciate that his actions on the Famine article didn't work out well, and so was trying to address that. He was keen to get independent, third party opinion (i.e. mine) when he and The Thunderer could not agree. Likewise, my emails with The Thunderer suggested he has similar good intentions, though his relative inexperience of Wikipedia combined with a propensity to revert did on occasion make progress difficult. Considering the history of animosity between the two, and the controversial subject area, I thought things were going pretty well and both were to be commended to keeping cool. Then, for some reason, an edit-war kicked off between them on 20 September. I wasn't around to mediate and we ended up here. I don't really have an issue with 1RR sanctions on these editors, simply because I think there temptation for them to revert each other is great, and this might keep them discussing rather than reverting. It might be fairer to put a temporary 1RR restriction on the Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary articles, rather than the specific editors though. That way it is a level playing field and all contributors would have to discuss rather than revert. 1RR is something I'm happy to volunteer to on this article too.

I can't really comment about TU, since I have had very little interaction with him. In the little I have had, he has always been reasonable. Finally, I am genuinely puzzled at the justification for including Sarah in these sanctions. Yes, Sarah is abrasive, opinionated and a damned nuisance sometimes and in the past has edit-warred with the best of them. But in the past month or two, I can see very little to justify a 1RR restriction. Virtually no edit-warring, virtually nothing Troubles related and she hasn't even being comparing the Brits to Nazis for a while. I do feel Sarah is being included by reputation more than anything, and I think that is unfair. If Sarah is inflammatory on a talk page (and she certainly can be), then sanction her by restricting her from that talk page for a period, but a 1RR restriction is simply not appropriate to someone who has not been excessively edit-warring.

I's just like to finish by stating that this is not a criticism of Tznkai. He seems to me to be trying to sort out a real issue with a bold initiative and has done so in good faith, and I applaud his efforts. However, experience suggest that creative solutions are the only way to deal with Troubles related issues, and I'm not sure these sanctions are creative enough. Rockpocket 18:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Sarah is abrasive, opinionated and a damned nuisance sometimes and in the past has edit-warred with the best of them - wow! With friends like that Rock.......:) Sarah777 (talk) 20:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Thats just sometimes though, the rest of the time you are as sweet as pie ;) Rockpocket 22:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Re Tznkai; no indulgence is possible for the unrepentant (Catholic theology). This guy made a mistake in my case and when it became obvious he responded with arrogant bull. Not a fit Admin IMO. Sarah777 (talk) 20:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with most of above. I know most of the editors from editing troubles related articles and while they've shown "problem behaviour" in the past they've done little of that in recent weeks. Sarah's edit history shows few troubles related edits of late though she does need to cut back on the conspiracy theories. TU and Dunc haven't edited much in general and as with Domer and Thunderer have generally discussed stuff on talk pages. There are problematic issues like the UDR article but it seems better to deal with them on a case by case basis rather than throw out blanket bans. As an aside it seems very poor form to condemn Domer here while he is on a block, thus denying him right of reply. Valenciano (talk) 19:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts are: Despite my previous comments that I would like to see everyone under revert parole just to cut out the edit warring, there's not enough justification in at least a couple cases (Sarah's case, for example, she asked me to specifically look at it). I have been thinking about setting up article probation terms on Northern Ireland related pages, not on specific editors, but on the pages themselves (limiting all editors to 1RR (not 1 RR/week, 1RR/24 hours).. because in a way it's unfair to our current editors that they get placed on it now, but new and/or returning editors have to work up to it. (I think this is what Domer was mad about when he was accusing another editor of being a returned editor).

Also, everyone's tone of voice needs to improve and the excessive arguments with each other needs to stop. What happened to the first two sections is all too sadly normal around here. I would also say this.. any editor who does NOT get put on the probation, I would strongly suggest not treating it as a RIGHT to go to 3RR, etcetera.. it can be done fairly quickly. SirFozzie (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

You may be on to something here Fozzie; I like the "article rather than the editor" approach. 1RR is fine by me so long as we have a notice or something pointing it out on top of the article? You don't have to be a "conspiracy theorist" to see the involvement (on both sides) of puppets of all types here. They need to be cut off at the pass, to coin a phrase. (Maybe this is an idea that could extend on Wiki way beyond "the Troubles" btw). Sarah777 (talk) 20:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Modified remedies proposal

What's gone on here is all too common among the areas fraught with ethnic strife on wiki. Two or more sides who have been feuding in real life for decades, centuries, or even thousands of years bring their world view to wiki and wiki becomes an extension of their real world problems. Someone makes a change. A person from the other side sees it as "misinformation" and we all know the rest of the story. Any admin trying to solve these ongoing wiki strifes should be commended for bravery as most admins won't go near these topics. Yet what happens all too often? They get attacked by both sides because these cases are prime examples of the fact that you can't make everyone happy. I've spent quite a bit of time looking at this thread and am proposing a modification of Tznkai's proposal as I don't see admin consensus for support of it, though I can see why he made the proposals he made. If remedies don't have the support of the admin community, they are largely ineffective. Ideally, peaceful cooperation would fall upon all of wiki and the energy spent on matters like arbitration would get spent on article building, but we're not there yet. So here I go...I hope most of those who have commented here can support this proposal:

• Domer48 (talk · contribs) blocked for 72 hours for gross incivility and disruptive editing, may request unblock. NOTE: already served
• Domer48 (talk · contribs) placed under indefinite probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles, because of disruptive edit warring and inability to compromise and cooperate instead of edit warring. NOTE: same as Tznkai's
• Sarah777 (talk · contribs) put on 1 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring. NOTE: same as Tznkai's
• The Thunderer (talk · contribs), BigDunc (talk · contribs), Traditional unionist (talk · contribs) are not on user probation NOTE: Tznkai's probation is not in effect
• All editors on Troubles related articles are directed to get the advice of neutral parties via means such as outside opinions.
• All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related.
  • Clear vandalism may be reverted without penalty
• Blocks may be up to 1 week for first offense, 1 month after the first 1 week block, and then ban options may be considered.

NOTE: If this is approved, I'll post it to The Troubles arb case. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure about Sarah's, as I said previously, and I'm leaning towards more a blanket article based probation then a user one. For what it is, I think it's decent. SirFozzie (talk) 02:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

As Fozzie says. This is in improvement, but I can't support a general 1RR sanction on Sarah777 for "disruptive edit warring" - no-one has presented evidence of her doing this in the recent past. Rockpocket 02:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support I can support this, but want to reiterate that the conduct of The Thunderer, Sarah777 BigDunc, and Traditional unionist has been far from satisfactory (to different levels I note) and no one involved should take this as approval of their conduct. MBisanz ^talk 02:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Conditional support - I'm okay with the substance of it but, like Foz, I'm not seeing any concrete evidence to support why Sarah777 should be given a 1-month probation. I spent the last hour or so looking over the evidence and hers appears to be wanting. So, no to the sanctions on Sarah777, at least for the moment. I know Sarah is abrasive and difficult at times, but she's been trying hard of late. Also, can we possibly add Baronetcies to the list of "Troubles-related" articles? - Alison ^❤ 03:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Comment - Sarah777's transgressions, if any, do not fall under the auspices of The Troubles remedies; even Tzknai concurs with that point in his summary. Sanctions under this Arbcom remedy are not appropriate in this case. I am also concerned that in one fell swoop, we will be putting thousands of articles, the majority of which have not had any editing problems, on 1-RR; there is no effective way to warn potential editors of those kinds of sanctions. Risker (talk) 04:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Comment to Risker Placing items on the talk page would be fine. I would suggest letting truly new editors slide on the first time, instead informing them that the articles are on probation. Once they are aware, of course, that's a different story. SirFozzie (talk) 04:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry, but I do not see a good reason for Helena Moloney or Edward Daly (Irish revolutionary) or Fourth Northern Division of the Irish Republican Army to be under sanctions. Of the 15 random articles I looked at that were clearly categorised to be amongst those which would be covered under the sanction, only three showed any sign of edit warring. There are quite a number that should have the 1-RR restriction applied to them, but unless someone is going to go around and properly tag every last one to which this might apply then it seems more appropriate to change the sanction to 1-RR on any article in the relevant groups (including the baronetcies) in which inappropriate editing or edit warring has transpired, with the sanction only coming into effect after the article's talk page is duly tagged by an administrator. That provides for the known problematic articles to be tagged now, with the option to impose the sanction on other articles should they become problematic in the future. Risker (talk) 05:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support although I don't feel strongly about Sarah777. To my mind this is a much clearer solution. The bickering on troubles related articles must stop but that also means that we treat the editors working on them fairly. I'd also agree that any further distruption, incivility and edit warring will result in sanctions both for the individuals and the articles concerned. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support Yeah, I'm good with this, though I'm not entirely sure about Sarah's 1RR - IMO Sarah's problem is more incivility than edit-warring. I'd also add in here that the 1RR restriction should cover things like User:HighKing's single-minded mission to remove the words "British Isles" from Wikipedia, and User:TharkunColl's equal determination to stop him. Black Kite 07:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm just sorry that this is taking up so much of everyone's time. I'm also very sorry that I'm a part of it. The Thunderer (talk) 11:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• UpdateStruck Sarah's probation as clearly no support for it. The one issue remaining is development of a list of 1RR restricted articles as I do see some would not need it. Should Sarah be on civility parole? — Rlevse • Talk • 11:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not qualified to comment on Sarah because I simply haven't followed her editing but I'm wondering whether she should be looked at separately as her issues are different to the disruption and edit warring we are working on here. Good move to strike the proposal by the way. Spartaz ^Humbug! 13:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Conditional Support. All I’m seeing is Admin’s queuing up for a liberal use of the stick, and no comment or reflection on the preventative actions they are willing to put in place. I’ll put my hands up to my short comings and impatience on articles, but what are Admin’s going to do to insure that I can edit free from policy violations? Now there is four articles were there has been problems and only two editors involved. Dunc, Sarah and TU were not involved. So any sanctions should only apply to me and the other editor equally.--Domer48_'fenian' 11:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• In that case you haven't been paying attention as several of us admins have queried the first set of restrictions as unfair and arbitrary. Spartaz ^Humbug! 13:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• I have been paying attention, but all I’m seeing is a review of the sentence without the case been heard or evidence presented. I did ask for comments to be posted and you refused? --Domer48_'fenian' 14:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry we must be at cross purposes. I thought you were referring to the decision to put you on probation. I don't think there is a dispute that your conduct has been problematic but I felt BigDunc and Thunder had got the wrong end of the decision and that's what I referred to. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Conditional Support. Only if Sarah777 is released from these sanctions, will I support this modified proposal. She hasn't been edit warring recently. GoodDay (talk) 14:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support the version with me removed. Also I think we need to put some sort of notice on the restricted articles otherwise innocents will get caught. Need some thought as to how we protect genuine newbies from being driven away while capturing the various socks and reincarnations. I have no clear idea how to do that to be honest. Sarah777 (talk) 16:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• The usual practise is to give them one very clear but pleasant explanation/warning on their talk page and then treat as everyone else if they continue to edit unhelpfully. Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Warmer support for the detail, but still not enthusiastic. Like Risker I'm not especially happy with the blanket approach. Tagging talk pages as necessary will be better. If there's no edit-warring on most articles, let's leave well alone. As for the [[British Isles]] versus [[Great Britain|Britain]] and [[Ireland]] lameness raised by Black Kite, let's leave that for another day. And the Baronets too, unless there's some evidence I'm missing. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment Domer48

We have had an ArbCom on the Troubles. We all took part in proposed decisions, gave evidence and participated in the workshop. When ArbCom reviewed all of this material they identified what it was that gave rise to the problems which led to editwarring. In their final decision, they voted unanimously on a set of Principles which had to be adhered to or editors would face the Remedies as outlined. If an editor failed to abide by those remedies, they would then face ArbCom Enforcement.

Why view would be that what is happening now, is an attempt to rewrite both the Remedies and the Enforcement. That’s just my opinion. It is also my opinion that at no stage has the agreed Principles ever been addressed by any Admin. For example, when was the last time an Admin intervened on a talk page to outline these Principles to editors? To date, only Rock as far as I’m aware has attempted this with positive results. If I’m wrong provide diff’s and I’ll rephrase my comment? Now I do not think the stock answer of it’s a “content dispute” is applicable to the Principles outline above, and should not be used.

Now my proposals may sound naïve or simplistic but I’ll offer them in anyway. It is my opinion that a strict adherence (by editors) and implementation/enforcement (by admin’s) to the agreed Principles would remove the causes of or locus of disputes. I don’t see it as being much different to what Fozz suggests here. The first thing you should do when reverted from now on should be to seek a WP:30. How is that different to applying policies? Now I would have no problem being placed on a 1RR on any and every article I edit if I knew that Admin’s would intervene in disputes and enforce policy. Placing a 1RR on articles is again a useful idea and would lend its self to active Admin involvement in article development.

In a nut shell, what I'm suggesting is that by addressing the causes instead of the symptoms of problems we would not end up here and that was the findings of the original ArbCom. I see a lot of Admin’s commenting here, and I can not see anyone putting their hand up and saying “well what have I done to prevent this.” I’ll take responsibility for my actions, but someone should take responsibility for their inaction. The ArbCom was a package deal, but I’m not seeing it.

If Admin's would like to try this approach out, gentle intervention, here is a minor issue that could be used to illustrate my point. As it’s recent there is not much history to review on the article.

I had posted some of my views on my talk page and wished to have it posted here, since this is about me, on what gave rise to the current problem, why would no one post it for me?--Domer48_'fenian' 11:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Dispute

1. Removal of sourced and reference information.

I started editing the article on the 8 September. I added additional referenced information here, and an additional reference here. It was then removed here, with the edit summary “Not correct at that time. A Republican POV.” It was also removed here despite the additional reference, with the edit summary “Incorrect - Republican POV.” I added it here with additional information, in addition to here with an additional reference. It was again removed here with the edit summary “Nationalist opinion is of no consequence when talking about Catholic recruits,” and here with the edit summary of “corrected POV.”

They also removed this here, though I did not add it. Some of it was restored here however it was reverted again here with the edit summary “Removing POV – again.” I removed some information and replaced the original information, now with three references here, and it was quickly removed again here with the edit summary “rem POV on B Specials.” It was re-added here and removed again here, with the edit summary “Incorrect POV has no place in this article.”

I attempted to add it again here, but it was removed again here with the edit summary “removing POV - see talk.” This is their talk page comment here, and the full discussion here.

While not accepting the referenced information that then added this here, and here. They then add this commentary here, describing it as an assertion and including more commentary here. They then add this analyses here, which I removed here, and adding this referenced information here.

I then used a completely new source here and added a Google books link to assist verifiability here, which they later removed here.

This information was then moved here and then add information here. I then added this addition here, which they then asked to be moved to another section here.

I then removed some of the commentary they added here only to have it replaced here. They then added this for some reason here. I had added this information for clarity here, but they removed it here with the edit summary “It's a separate artilce - leave it at that please. This isn't about the B Men.”

I again removed the addition of opinion into a referenced statement here with the edit summary “you have been asked by an uninvolved admin not to add your opinion” but they inserted it again here with the edit summary “It's not an opinion. I can cite that no cases were ever proven.” I again removed it here and asked “cite them then, and qualify the reference used.” It was again added back here, and they then added this here. I then added “Attribute, and remove qualifying statement from referenced source” edit here and I introduced Rocks solution here.

They then started to remove the referenced information again here with this edit summary “remove improper qualification” which I then replaced here with the edit summary “please don't remove referenced information.” They then modified the information here with the edit summary “removing incorrect assertion” and here which I changed here.

They then added their own opinion here with the edit summary “changing to reflect the fact that "reputation" wasn't in existence in 1970.” I again replaced this here with the edit summary “Please don't change sourced information, the information is supported throughout the article.”

They then started again here with the edit summary “Do not try to assert that something had a reputation before it actually had time to gain one. See Talk.” This is their talk page contribution here, the full discussion is here. I reverted again to reflect the sources here. It was again moved here, with additional information removed, which I had to replace here. This also was then removed here.This discussion should clarify some of the thinking behind its removal? --Domer48_'fenian' 17:13, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

1. Removal of Attributions from authors:

There were a number of issues in relation to attribution. Before I ever started attributing statements, I raised it first on the talk page here in the last paragraph, and was agreed to here, last line in the second last paragraph, "Potter. I can't see any harm in attributing statements to Potter. There may be occasions when I need to draw your attention to items if something appears glaringly obvious." In addition to this they considered that they had not used any opinions of Potter in the article here.

Again before I even began, a third opinion was sought, and Rock responded here. My view of Rocks opinion on An Phoblacht, would be the same for any " obvious partisan associations" and would include Potter?

When I attempted to start attributing statements I ran into trouble here. I was told that my attempts at attribution were well poisoning. I was informed that the A Testimony to Courage - the Regimental History of the Ulster Defence Regiment 1969 - 1992, John Potter must be "taken as gospel."

By attributing statements I was then told I was attempting to start a Contrived Edit War, and there was no consensus to attribute Potter. I had even informed him that there would be no 3RR reports from me and this had been agreed.

Rock then gave a third party view here, and again here on attrabution. Based on Rocks input I tried to apply it here but I was expected to take Potter as fact.

I then set about attribution, based on the advice given and I commented here, but was again told Potter has to be treated as fact and needs no attribution.

I was then accused of synthesis here, Rock again stepped in to help here and again here.

I then showed some real synthesis here. They next remove attributions wholesale and comment here.

Now if editors review the Article page history they will see this all play out. I will put up the diff's if editors think it is more helpful?--Domer48_'fenian' 20:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

1. Incivility and personal attacks

To expand:

1. Editwarring

Under normal circumstances 3RR acts as a deterrent, but it depends on how and who applies it. Some suggest 3RR is an electric fence, others, well:

1 August 3RR report (no action)

9 August 3RR report (decline)

13 August 3RR report (final warned)

14 August 3RR report (page-protected)

Notice how on the 13 August report I’m told that no current warning was given? That’s strange since no current warning is needed, only for the editor to be aware of the rule? Now the accusation is made that I was tag-teaming the editor, but I had not edited this article since the 24 July?

Despite the final warning, however, they still don’t get blocked. Well they were, but then they were unblocked because the blocking admin did not see the entire situation?. Which was?

1. Improper Edit Summaries

To expand:

(edit summary) they want to word it their way?

1. Sources

To expand:

Having used both English and Irish papers I got this resonce. However they use references 83-86, 93-96 I did not add any of them. Now some papers are fine, the Belfast Telegraph for example. Also on sources here is a good example. And as for reasons to revert here is one. Again on sources some must be taken as gospel. Regardless of what anyone says. While other are well, of no consequence. The point is however, these authors would not be or consider themselves to be Nationalist and definatly not Republican? --Domer48_'fenian' 12:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment Whether it is 1RR or 3RR the analysis above indicates that without active Admin oversight (not after-the-problem macho banning sprees), then edit restriction only facilitates the more numerous cabal. Unless we have Admins, awake and willing to enforce rules (on, say, referencing) then this is pointless. Take my own bugbear, civility - most of it directed at me actually comes from the very Admins who were nowhere to be seen when the organised warring was ongoing! This is a huge problem for Wiki in general; I don't have a solution yet but I'm working on one. But while random/biased "civility" rules are being used to silence people that Admins get into dispute with/are irritated by/don't like their political views - then this is going nowhere because we don't have the Admin quality in sufficient quantity to deal fairly with the problems here. So we get the logistically convenient "solution" of simply trampling on minority (in this case Irish) views. Sarah777 (talk) 20:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• This exactly sums up the problem here. Look, a year ago you had two admins, Alison and Rocketpocket, keeping an eye on stuff but they both got burned out trying to deal with it. Frankly, any admin willing and able to get involved in policing troubles related articles needs their head examined. Its a recipe for constant harassment, finger pointing and getting general crap. Just understanding the back and forth would take days to research. Domer's screed above would take, what, 3-4 hours to properly read and digest? Who has time to properly study and think all this through? I don't, that's for sure, and I'm more active then most admins. If you can't work without fighting each other, which it often seems you can't, then its inevitable that you won't find anyone willing to play the role of piggy-in-the-middle. I don't have a solution to this but general probation including 1RR rules on problem articles would at least slow down the edit warring to give you all time to agree on solutions. Its not the job of admins to give you answers to issues like judging references, we can only be referees and sometimes the wrong player gets sent off when things are moving too quickly. That's what happened here and its a systemic issue that stems directly from the pressures and grief that the editors working on troubles related articles engender. Please don't blame admins for this situation - none of us have been edit warring or disrupting the project and very few admins have serious civility issues either. That seems a staple of editors working round here and the ultimate solution is to have a long hard look at yourselves instead of seeking external solutions for problems you create by being undisciplines and overly combative. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Thanks, Sarah. That was singularly unhelpful, mostly completely inaccurate, and as Spartaz says, neatly sums up exactly what the problem is here. Ia it any wonder that sweeping probations are being proposed, when the people that have to deal with the messes that Troubles articles create are routinely accused of bias and inadequacy? Black Kite 22:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Well Black Kite & Spartaz, as Admins (not mentioning Tznkai here) are wont to say when they make a howler - "I stand by everything I said". There is no point in saying "if everyone was in agreement on everything there'd be no need for policy enforcement". In that happy circumstance there be no need for Admins either. Sarah777 (talk) 06:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Please provide a diff of the last time either of you intervened in a dispute and explained our policies to editors, and I don’t mean 3RR. Say WP:V, or WP:RS or even WP:NPOV. If you don’t or won’t will neatly sums up exactly what the problem is here? --Domer48_'fenian' 22:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Straw man argument. You know very well that I (or any other admin) shouldn't have to explain any of those policies to editors as experienced as the ones mentioned here. We are not talking newbie editors here. For example, did I need to explain WP:EW here? Clearly not. Black Kite 22:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

So you just like to dish out blocks and bans? What dose an admin do then? --Domer48_'fenian' 23:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

No-one "likes" to dish out blocks and bans. It is done to protect the encyclopedia from editors who are incapable of editing in a collegial way, and know they are flouting the policies that you linked above, as is the case with many articles in this area. I'd suggest that you, Sarah and others stop blaming the admin corps for the problems here, and start looking closer to home. Black Kite 23:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

WELL SAID Black Kite. Us admins would much rather write good articles but someone has to handle things like ANI, Arb cases, 3Rr, and oh yes, AE cases. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

So anyone can add what ever crap they like to the encyclopedia, as long as they don't edit war? Because Admin's don't do policy! Your right about one thing, we do know when editors are flouting the policies, and Admin's like you are incapable of helping in a collegial way. Straw man argument. Was that the best you could come up with? Because we would much rather write good articles we end up with things like ANI, Arb cases, 3Rr, and oh yes, AE cases --Domer48_'fenian' 23:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

OK. Attempting to debate civilly clearly isn't working here, so it's time to disengage. I refer you again to my previous post. Black Kite 23:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now that is a Straw man argument. Could the next Admin who wants to have a pop at me please provide a diff of the last time they intervened in a dispute to help explain our policies to editors and prevent edit warring. Say WP:V, or WP:RS or even WP:NPOV, the cause of most of the problems. If you don’t or won’t will neatly sums up exactly what the problem is here?--Domer48_'fenian' 23:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Protect the articles-in-question, as I mentioned above, with 1RR. An editor is not gonna revert the opposing editor's revert if his/her opposer gets the last revert every 24hrs. GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but then you have whats called the Tag-teaming? If the information which is added is WP:V, and WP:RS and written in a WP:NPOV free of WP:SYN and WP:OR why would it be reverted? If it is reverted, then an admin should step in and say hang on a minute why did you revert that? That's what should happen IMO. --Domer48_'fenian' 00:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Any administrators out there, agree to give it a try? GoodDay (talk) 00:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

User:VartanM incivil comments

User:VartanM has been placed under civility supervision per Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 ArbCom. Please, check out his commentary, while reverting my edits: "rv: did you drop something on your head? because you're showing signs of amnesia. See talk", clearly removing a reference to a scholarly source. Speaking on subject term, perhaps User:VartanM needs to be reminded about the parole, and I am still hopeful that he can discuss references in a civil manner on the talk page, instead of unconstructive comments such as this. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 22:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Your tendentious, disruptive and highly provocative recent edits were clearly intended to invite such a reaction. After all what could you have possibly expected to happen? You show up and revert on articles after one year of inactivity by repeating the same nonsense that was discussed and refuted throughout last year (Talk:Principality of Khachen and Talk:Sahl Smbatean). You have been uncooperative every single time. Insisting on the same misinterpretation and instead of attemtping to pay attention to the arguments against your misinterprations you constantly allege that other users are disputing your sources when nobody has or is disputing them. I don't expect anyone to engage in an effort to assume good faith or to attempt to take you seriously when you haven't changed your editing patterns in all this time. Atabek should be topic banned from any and all articles that deal with anything predating the 20th century.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 04:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what adding a scholarly reference to an article, and your obviously angry reactions have to do with AGF. Is VartanM's comment on something hitting my head, and me having amnesia, an AGF? No. You suggest that I am topic banned for adding a reference to an Oxford scholar and expert on the topic in encyclopedic article, just because there is a group of nationalist POV contributors who have intended and turned those articles into fabricated propaganda tool? Eupator, amidst this nationalistic zeal, you're forgetting a simple thing, I am for impartial use of references, in fact, my edits of the same pages [39] always included references to all, including Armenian scholars, and those claiming Sahl Armenian. But removing CJF Dowsett references from these two pages, is like talking about Communist history by removing any reference to Marx. As far as VartanM's comments go, he was incivil as he was placed on parole precisely for that reason. So, AE post is only seeking to follow the rules, if any. Atabek (talk) 20:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Note to administrators: Atabek claims that he was impartial and that he included all the sides and supports it by referring to this edit of his [40]. To not accuse him of lying, he is not saying the truth, the edit in question was made more than a year ago, while the recent events relate to this edit where he entirely removed Armenian to replace it with Albanian. (to correspond to his recent creations over Azerbaijani Wikipedia where he excludes him being Armenian) The following references have been provided that state that Sahl Sbatean was Armenian:

• The Cambridge History of Iran. Par W B Fisher, Richard Nelson Frye, J A Boyle, Ehsan Yar-Shater, Peter Jackson, Lawrence Lockhart, Cambridge University Press (1968)

• E. J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936 Par M. Th. Houtsma, E. van Donzel, BRILL, (1993)

• Islamic Culture by Islamic Cultural Board, Editors: -Oct. 1936, Marmaduke Pickthall; Jan. 1937- Oct. 1938, Muhammad Asad-Weiss. (1927)

• C.E Bosworth, Encyclopaedia Iranica.

More sources can be provided.

It was explained to him by several users, on several occasions that he was misinterpreting Dowsett. He was even cought misquoting this author.

His disruption on another article was also one of the reasons why we had to have 20 reference to support an authors ethnicity. [41]

Also note Atabek's above remarks, he is accusing several users of being a "group of nationalist POV contributors who have intended and turned those articles into fabricated propaganda tool?" I am deeply offended and I'm wondering for how long Atabek is going to continue with this sort of battleground mentality. VartanM (talk) 05:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM is on parole and was given a final warning [42] like 2 months ago. Grandmaster (talk) 06:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Good for you Grandmaster, here, have a cookie. VartanM (talk) 06:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

And here is Grandmaster engaging in editwarring[43]. VartanM (talk) 07:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, none of your sideline arguments justify your comments, which are a personal attack and violation of WP:AGF, while you're on parole. I would also refer you to WP:TROLL, as you're simply disrupting this thread by bringing absolutely irrelevant subjects trying to cover up your comments, I repeat: "rv: did you drop something on your head? because you're showing signs of amnesia.". And I would think, that any non-disruptive user would simply apologize for making such personal attacks while editing. As far as nationalistic POV goes, I think the appearance of Eupator in this thread even before yourself, and edit warring of both of you and MarshallBagramyan on the page in question are more than sufficient proof of my point. But this thread pertains to your disruption only. Atabek (talk) 08:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Atabek only a person suffering from amnesia can come into an article after a whole year has passed, when he was proven wrong time after time, and re-start a disruptive campaign to unArmenianise an article. If any person, that has 2 brain cells, reads the talkpage of the Sahl Smbatean will see and understand how disruptive you are.

And since you decided to insult me here on AE page by calling me a TROLL let me teach you what the term means.

TROLL: "The archetypal example of trolling is the deliberately inflammatory edit[44] or post[45]. Inflammatory edits usually come from users who have a minority or controversial opinion[46] and who sincerely believe that this view is inadequately represented by Wikipedia, and therefore will seek reasonable ways to properly represent their views; trolls, however, will generally not seek consensus but will instead insist on a position without any regard for compromise.[47][48][49][50]"

Sounds familiar? If not, see the history and talk pages of Osroene(banned from editing), Edessa, Mesopotamia (banned from editing), Sahl Smbatean, Principality of Khachen, Movses Kaghankatvatsi and dozen of others.

Second note to administrators As you can see Atabek did not stop the battle ground rhetoric, he actually went further and unjustifiably insulted me. And if you take a precious second and click on the diffs provided, you will see who the real TROLL is, and why exactly after months of quite and peace, Armenians and Azeri-turks are back on this page. VartanM (talk) 10:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, I am not trying to "unArmenize the article" (such wording is rather nationalist too btw), only to add a reference to an Oxford scholar, mind WP:OWN? The matter is simple - these are your words: "rv: did you drop something on your head? because you're showing signs of amnesia. See talk". There is nothing that justifies such angry attacks. Atabek (talk) 14:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

What I see here is continuing problems on A-A articles with little, if any, progress being made by either side. While there is heated talk from both sides, I see only VartanM making comments like this. If the two sides of the A-A debate can't work this out, we will not have many options left. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

A typical comment from a typical administrator. You can't be bothered to understand the subject and its background, so you come up with "to hell with all of you" type comments. Administrators should either be wise to the subject, or cease being involved in things they know nothing about. Meowy 20:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

You obviously have no clue about what you are talking about; it is because of administrator’s actions like yours that we are in this situation. Atabek was banned for two months from several articles nearly for the same reason as this current situation and you write just that? Atabek right here writes: just because there is a group of nationalist POV contributors who have intended and turned those articles into fabricated propaganda tool? while ‘Wikipedia is not a battleground’ was a proposed and voted principle in AA1 and AA2 and that users have been banned according to those principles. But what you see is some incivility as an answer of an obvious provocation.

Nothing coming from Atabek can be trusted, but there is nothing new here. See how he lies, he claims: majority of your choices are Armenian. Actually, from the six sources provided NONE were Armenian, neither their sources, neither their authors. Here are the sources in question which prove that he is Armenian:

• The Cambridge History of Iran
• E. J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam
• Islamic Culture by Islamic Cultural Board
• Encyclopaedia Iranica
• Poetics Of Islamic Historiography Deconstructing Ṭabarī History
• Prelude to the Generals: A Study of Some Aspects of the Reign of the Eighth ‘Abbsid Caliph, Al-Mu ‘tasim Bi-Allah (218–277 AH/833–842 AD)

On the same answer Atabek writes: In this sense, Dowsett and Minorsky references,..., you can find what Thatcher already wrote about the matter here, Thatcher claims that it seems that Minorsky is claiming him to be Armenian but then the author claims that his origins were unknown. But as I have clearly explained here, when Minorsky claims that his origins are unknown, he is referring to his genealogy since a royal lineage and from where he came. Thatcher also claims that, from Dowsett’s own words, it is not clear and it could support both sides. Which was also addressed, since those reading Dowsett’s specialised works know already that Caucasian Albania in the time of the Sahl was culturally Armenia, actually Dowsett writes about his realm as being in Armenia (about Khachen) in a more recent paper than the one distorted by Atabek (also provided, from a review of a book)

In short, six notable and neutral sources (Minorsky and Dowsett are not included) were provided explicitly claiming him to be Armenian, the quote from Minorsky used by Thatcher which is the following: A particular complication results from the contemporary Armenian fashion of assuming Arabic patronymics (kunya) (such as Abii-Miisii, Abul-Asad, etc.), without any connexion with the original Armenian names. These latter too often recur in otherwise unrelated families, and it becomes difficult to discriminate between several Sahls, Vasaks, and Smbats living at the same time is an implicit admission of him being Armenian, what Thatcher uses to suggest there is a contradiction is actually on the search of the prince’s genealogy and birthplace. So Minorsky does support the claim that he was actually Armenian. As for Dowsett anyone is invited to read the talkpage of the article to see how Atabek is distorting it. See here his recent version, where he replaces Armenian with Albanian, when no one including the source he uses dispute him to be Armenian. So Atabek lies when he claims that he was impartial.

Atabek has a history of distorting, misusing and misquoting sources… see for instance the discussion here on his misuses of sources, he was subsequently banned for two months from editing those articles. He is continuing his distortion by replacing Armenian with Albanian that he started recently on Azerbaijani Wikipedia where everything Armenian becomes Albanian. An example here where a monastery built in the 13th century becomes an Albanian monastery, when the Albanian Church was abolished under the Arabs and replaced by the Armenian several centuries prior, which alone shows the impossibility of the existence of an Albanian Church in that era. All the engravings on the walls, the architecture, and the letters are in Armenian.

But continue being fooled by a user whose every single edit regarding those articles are done in bad faith, just recently he started to re-edit the articles he was banned from… see here, where he claims that figure to be a disciple of Christ, if you knew the period (time frame), you'd know why it is impossible. But why he does this is complicated for someone unfamiliar with the stuff to understand, but once you understand why those articles which seem so unrelated are actually related, you'll see why those edits are in bad faith. Thanks. - Fedayee (talk) 23:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Grandmaster still refuses to consider what others write. For example, here he changed the map back by claiming: “restoring the map that was removed for no reason.” Grandmaster knows that's not true. I started raising the issue of this map on September 5, on the Artsakh talk page. Grandmaster replied, The map that you mentioned is for the 2nd century B.C., i.e. the period before Armenia conquered the region, and it comes from a neutral source, unlike the map based on Bagrat Ulubabyan. [51] It was told to him that the map was prepared by the Soviets and was politically motivated (I explained why); later I provided 13 different maps which abundantly disprove as that map being unreliable.

Grandmaster cannot claim he did not notice the above mentioned points: they were provided during a discussion which involved both of us, and did not bother to answer. From the map provided, three are those which are officially used over Wikipedia. In fact, even the scholars Grandmaster quotes contradict the map in question. I was even reverted after I reverted Grandmaster by Elsanaturk, who seemed to come out of nowhere. This sort of behavior is very much similar to what I reported on his conduct on AA2. I don't see how discussion is possible when on the other end the editor is deliberately ignoring the comments you make; made even worse so, as if they were never made to begin with.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as i'm concerned Atabek is now in Adil territory. Look at the articles in question here which he created and modified in the Turkish and Azeri Wikis and check out the content: [52], [53], [54], [55], [56] etc.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 02:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Eupator, I am in Adil's territory?...do you even understand what you're talking about? Yes, I contribute to both Turkish and Azeri wiki, I don't see how that matters here. Btw, you forgot to include few other Azeri Wiki articles which I started or edited - on Caliphate, Georgian Democratic Republic, artificial intelligence, Aga Mohammed Qajar, some translated from English Wiki. Perhaps, you could accuse me for making these too... Or maybe, I shall remind you that Azeri Xachen article I created, actually cites Armenian spelling of it, something you never do in regards to Azeri or Turkish spelling of relevant articles in any Wiki. At least I contribute something to encyclopedias, unlike you reverting scholarly work with angry non-neutral POV and/or personal attacks. And again, your argument above only serves to cover up VartanM's incivil comments... Atabek (talk) 16:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you hoping that I will say something funny again, so you can go and cry to administrators? In regards to your inclusion of the Armenian spelling, you copy pasted half of the word with spelling errors, why aren't you coping the entire name? Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't want anyone to know that it was a principality. Your historically wrong Azeri articles don't bother me one bit, so you can mislead and misinform your fellow Azeris as much as you like. You're dumbing down your own people after all. VartanM (talk) 17:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, this is irrelevant to the AE thread but Azeri Xachen article is titled "Xaçın məlikliyi" (Khachen principality). Anyways, what you're saying is not funny, I am actually very sorry for your inability to admit your obvious incivility, being now even more emboldened. This is precisely why I opened this AE thread, to get you to stop disrupting by being disrespectful of editors. Atabek (talk) 18:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

If we could mix up the time periods, I wonder what the German Wikipedia would have looked like under Nazi Germany? A bit like the Azeri Wikipedia probably, only on a bigger scale. It would be a neat project to come up with a Wikipedia parody with articles containing nothing but propaganda, from the wildly unbelievable to the almost credible. Trouble is, the parody might seem too much like reality. Meowy 20:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm reading all of this bickering and it strikes me that nearly all, if not all the people, in this thread have been warned about the Arbitration case and the possibility of discretionary sanctions. I remind the parties most importantly of principle 7 of that case:

7) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their dealings with other users. Insulting and intimidating other users harms the community by creating a hostile environment. Personal attacks are not acceptable.

Right now, in my opinion as an uninvolved administrator, several editors in this thread are "fail[ing] to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process." and really need to re-examine and change their conduct if they desire to continue editing in this area. MBisanz ^talk 02:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Is the above meant to be proof for my "can't be bothered to understand the subject and its background, so you come up with 'to hell with all of you'" observation? Try to see beyond the "bickering" and observe the complainant to be an individual complaining about an alleged "insult" that nobody would reasonably be upset about, and who, if you would explore his editing history, has in fact been insulting the whole purpose of Wikipedia. (OK, actually, I believe Wikipedia to be an inherently evil concept, tailor-made as it is for spreading lies and propaganda - but you admins must still have some hope for it, so try and do something positive and not go down the easy "damn you all" route.) Meowy 02:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Meowy, such an attitude is precisely what causes these problems and why the A-A articles are in a constantly surrounded by bickering. The problems are not one-sided. There is merit in both sides of this argument and until such time as when the users on the two sides of the A-A articles learn to cooperate and build the encyclopedia instead of constantly pointing fingers at the other side, these problems will not go away. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Eupator and VartanM have already explained that the complainant, Atabek, has returned to editing certain articles after leaving them alone for a year. The material he is attempting to add to the articles is exactly the same material he was attempting to add a year earlier. He is presenting no new arguments to support the material’s inclusion - he is simply restating the same argument that was comprehensively rejected a year before. His actions actually make co-operative editing impossible (for what is the point of engaging with an editor and discussing proposed material if that editor deliberately ignores everything that has been said and at a later date tries to repeat the entire process). VartanM was actually being polite to Atabek with that alleged uncivil comment. It was not "signs of amnesia" that Atabek was showing, it was more like a contempt for those who had worked on those articles and engaged with him in their talk pages. Rlevse, you claim there is "merit in both sides of this argument" without bothering to say what the merit is? Saying everyone is partly right (or partly wrong) is an intellectual cop-out, and just a variant on the limp damn-you-all response. Meowy 16:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Bingo! That is precisely the root of the problem. Not one administrator has actually bothered to spend some time to understand the essense of the question here. This whole process has created an environment where users such as Atabek make calculative provocative and obviously ludicrous edits and then come and complain on this board against perceived incivility and victimization as a result. You do not have to "take sides" to make a judgement here, common sense should be sufficient.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The root of the problem is that some people continue edit warring and making incivil comments after repeated warnings, and nothing is being done to stop it. How many times was VartanM warned, yet here he is with another incivil comment, see the top of this report. Civility is one of the main rules in wikipedia, and observation of this rule is not a subject to any discussion. --Grandmaster (talk) 05:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM wasn't edit warring and wasn't being uncivil/incivil, he just wrote a badly explained edit summary. Look at the context. The edit summary would have been understood by (and got a smile from) anyone who had previously editing that entry and seen the talk page discussions, but it would not have been understood by a newcomer to the entry. Atabek too would have understood the edit summary; he is not a victim and is just playing the system. Meowy 15:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You can explain something to a user only so many times. After it was made abundantly clear that Sahl Smbatyan was an Armenian, that Albania was a mere geographical notion, that he was engaging in original research by interpreting what Albania meant, then further edits by Atabek simply became very provocative vandalism. The very fact that he has systematically removed the word "Armenian" in articles on Azeri Wikipedia and replaced them with "Caucasian Albania" reeks of the foul scholarship that Farida Mamedova and Ziya Bunyadov are quite notorious for. A topic ban seems to be quite appropriate.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you all try to just scroll up and read the first line of the thread. Are any of your commentaries relevant or do they justify these words: "rv: did you drop something on your head? because you're showing signs of amnesia" against an editor. Answering the question fairly may assist arbitrators in closing the thread. Atabəy (talk) 22:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, do let's get back to the actual complaint. As has been pointed out lots of times in the above posts, Atabek were trying to add to an entry material that had been discussed and rejected many times in the past, and was offering no new arguments for that material's inclusion. So it seems he had forgotten all about those previous discussions (hence the "amnesia"" and the "see talk" comment were justified). At worst VartanM is guilty of writing a bit of harmless sarcasm and of not giving a proper edit summary - and even that last point is subjective because anyone (including Atabek) who had previous contact with the page would have fully understood the meaning of the edit summary as written. Nobody can seriously believe Atabek actually felt insulted. The complaint is about something really trivial and has been a waste of everyones' time. Meowy 02:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

This can be closed now, see the "result" section above. Moreschi (talk) 19:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)