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May 13

Argue like you're right, listen like you're wrong

I heard an author on the radio mention a quote from her friend, Karl E. Weick. It's a good quote I'd like to add to his bio or wikiquote page, but I'm having trouble finding the original source document.

In The No Asshole Rule, Robert I. Sutton writes it as "Fight as if you are right, listen as if you are wrong." With a free preview in Google Books I can see he cites Weick's Small Wins paper but I don't have access to that paper to see if the quote is there or if that cite is supporting something else. I also wanted to make sure I got the original wording exactly.

Can anyone access these sources or put their finger on the original document? Thanks! -- Beland (talk) 07:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If nobody can help you here, you might try the WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request. Alansplodge (talk) 15:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Small Wins: Redefining the Scale of Social Problems", don't see the quote. The No Asshole Rule doesn't have citations, only "Further Reading".

Sutton, Robert (2007). "Building the civilized workplace" (PDF). The McKinsey Quarterly. To paraphrase a primary theme in Karl Weick’s classic book, The Social Psychology of Organizing,¹¹ this approach means learning to “argue as if you are right and to listen as if you are wrong." em and link added. fiveby(zero) 18:52, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see the maxim, attributed to Weick, mainly given in one of two versions:

Argue as if you’re right; listen as if you’re wrong.
Fight as if you are right; listen as if you are wrong.

The second version is sometimes identified as having been passed along by Sutton. However, Sutton himself presents the maxim in a blog post of 2007 as a newly found belief in the form Argue as if you are right, listen as if you are wrong, adding "(thanks to Karl Weick)". It can easily be interpreted as a literal quotation instead of a paraphrasing. --Lambiam 19:15, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No halfway competent reader could admit that is not a paraphrase. fiveby(zero) 21:14, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I don't see those words in Weick's book, so it sounds like Sutton distilled Weick's ideas into a nice phrase. I'll update the article accordingly. Thanks for your help! -- Beland (talk) 20:31, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, i was just joking with Lambian as in i only read the first part of the quote, so had to argue. Probably paraphrased, but i didn't track down every Weick article. fiveby(zero) 20:47, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Case Closed

For the model's painting in episode 8, can you find the name and author? Thank you. -- 193.207.129.171

Do you mean the picture with a knife down his throat? It doesn't look like an existing painting, although the style reminds me of some of Edvard Munch's portraits: he has painted a number of these with the model standing straight like the person in the picture, in a stiff pose, and pictured head to foot with a minimal background (do an image search for "Munch full-length portrait" to see examples). Most painters tend to portray their models from the waist up, so Munch stands out in using a different approach. Xuxl (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I mean the one with archangel Michael as explained on "trivia" in that site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.206.144 (talk) 21:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could you link to a picture? Xuxl (talk) 14:29, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think he's talking about the one in the infobox, but it links to a site which requires a login. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:47, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This time it worked. Try [1]. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:49, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe it's this one.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:52, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help Bugs; I think the OP refers to the first one you linked to. The picture looks like nothing familiar from the Western art canon, but more like something you'd see in a 1960s or 1970s science fiction graphic novel, in the style of Philippe Druillet and some of his peers. Xuxl (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 15

Political assassinations in New Zealand

Hi. Has there been assassinations of politicians in New Zealand? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 01:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would look through List of political scandals in New Zealand. I took a quick glance and couldn't find any. Heart ^(talk) 01:55, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the lead. After reading it I tried List of political scandals in the United Kingdom and didn't find any listed assassination either. But checking the Category:Assassinated British politicians there has been at the very least more than 30 politicians assassinated in the UK. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 02:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is indirect, but may be of interest to you, depending on whether you count attempts and whether you consider the Queen of New Zealand to be a "politician"

The Day the Queen Was Almost Shot
By Yonette Joseph and Charlotte Graham-McLay
The New York Times
March 3, 2018
This much is certain: On Oct. 14, 1981, a teenager armed with a .22 rifle went to the fifth floor of a building in Dunedin, New Zealand, during a visit by Queen Elizabeth II and her husband, Prince Philip.
When the royals stepped out of their Rolls-Royce to greet thousands of well-wishers on the street, the gunman, Christopher John Lewis, 17, a self-described terrorist who was hiding in a deserted toilet cubicle, trained his rifle on the queen and fired.
He missed.
The Guardian said “it may be the closest anyone has ever come to assassinating Queen Elizabeth II.” Decades later, questions about whether the New Zealand police and government had covered up the seriousness of the crime still linger.
The New Zealand police announced this past week that they would re-examine the case because of the public interest...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/world/asia/queen-elizabeth-attempted-assassination-new-zealand.html

—— Shakescene (talk) 04:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The teenager in question was Christopher John Lewis. Alansplodge (talk) 09:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of members of the New Zealand Parliament who died in office shows two MPs who were shot and killed in the New Zealand Wars while serving in volunteer units and four who were killed in action or died from wounds in the Second World War. However, no assasinations are listed. Alansplodge (talk) 09:23, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Last “Political Murder” describes the case of William Moffat, not a politician but a white entrepreneur who was killed in 1880 by Māoris under suspicion of land speculation. Alansplodge (talk) 09:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stretching assassination maybe William Cutfield King ambushed during the First Taranaki War. Wells, B. (1878). The History of Taranaki. p. 222. fiveby(zero) 15:46, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Terrorism_in_New_Zealand#Wellington_Trades_Hall_bombing? Latest seems to be confidence that Ernie Abbott was not the target[3]. I would call The murder of Joe Kum Yung political assassination per the header, tho not assassination of a politician per the question. fiveby(zero) 16:45, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some people also consider the killing of Fernando Pereira an assassination e.g. [4] [5] [6] although it's general accepted he wasn't intentionally killed and he also wasn't a politician. Matt McCarten (a trade unionist) also includes Fred Evans (union worker) and the earlier mentioned Ernie Abbott. Note that the place Marc-Joseph Marion du Fresne and part of his crew was killed is sometimes called Assassination Cove [7] (see also our article) I think the main reason it shows up a lot here [8] but it seems even more of a stretch to call it an assassination especially since the motives for the attack are unclear. 21:23, 15 May 2023 (UTC) Nil Einne (talk) 21:23, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am starting to think that New Zealand shows a track record of surreptitious assassinations that were not proven as such. Thinker78 (talk) 21:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe it's just hard to believe that there are some countries where political assassinations (not to mention frequent mass shootings) just don't happen. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The surviving crew of Le Mascarin named Orokawa bay baie des assassins[9], didn't 'assassination' mean just any surprise killing until about 1914? fiveby(zero) 22:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, but the 11th century Order of Assassins certainly had political motives for their modus operandi. Alansplodge (talk) 11:28, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Handley Page Hampden

Was the Handley Page Hampden named after John Hampden (as the article claims unsourcedly), and if not then after who or where or why or what? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 18:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are two sources for the claim, so it is not "unsourced". They are source numbers 4 and 5, one a book source with a page number, and the other a video source. --Jayron 32 18:55, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of those sources support it being named after John Hampden, or anything else. They support the christening by Lady Hampden and first flight of L4032. DuncanHill (talk) 19:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, but a different page in the leaflet does support it. DuncanHill (talk) 19:24, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fairness in publishing crime rates

Wikipedia shows an obvious bias toward states that are republican led or considered conservative. The way that crime rates are published for a democratic city or state are vastly different versus a republican one. Democratic pages have a per 100,000 residents block that show two- or three-digit numbers that look almost harmless to most compared to how you will list the actual number of crimes and or begin with paragraphs that say how a state had the highest number of blank crimes in 19?? or other wording to give readers the idea the city/state is full of violent crime or worse than it actually is. It is an obvious black and white attempt to shame and defame based on political affiliations and not based on factual fairness. To be fair, a template should be used with all the data listed in the same exact manner. Objecting to something that would even the playing field would be an obvious admittance of being biased.Gunpowder75 (talk) 19:20, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Any question? It is customary on the reference desk to ask questions. --Soman (talk) 20:54, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Wikipedia" has no particular bias, and strives to be a neutral summary of what all the relevant reliable sources say about a subject. Of course this is not always attainable, and furthermore particular editors may of course have bias - I'm slightly surprised that you find an apparent conservative bias, because I suspect that on average editors lean to the liberal. But I may be wrong.

If you think that an article is not reporting its sources adequately or fairly, please open a discussion on the article's talk page.

There is nobody whose job it is to maintain consistency across Wikipedia, but some individual editors choose to work on this in general or in particular areas. Sometimes these editors choose to group themselves into a WikiProject. I suggest you find an appropriaite WikiProject - perhaps WikiProject Crime or WikiProject Statistics - and see if you can find other editors who share your concerns. ColinFine (talk) 21:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and the links just under its title for more information, and how to comment. But as ColinFine suggests above, the place to start a discussion of a particular article's treatement of issues is on that article's Talk Page. —— Shakescene (talk) 00:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That does not work if there is a non-neutral tendency across a swath of articles. The OP's complaint fails to provide any concrete examples or evidence of the alleged "obvious" bias, so we have nothing to go on. --Lambiam 06:40, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Then (if visiting many articles' individual talk pages would not be useful), the complaint — with some specific references or comparisons — should be made at the general NPOV (neutral point of view) pages. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:48, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]}. You haven't shown any evidence of such a bias, or even any examples of a "Republican" city or state being described differently from a "Democratic" one. And while you claim that the "crime rate" is being reported differently, what you've actually described is one reporting the crime rate, and the other not actually reporting the crime rate. And it's the crime rate (crimes per x thousand people) that is usually the most useful stat, because it shows the risk of being a victim of crime, and because it isn't skewed by population size. (If total number of crimes per city was the most important thing, then a city could halve its crime count by splitting the into two new cities, but that wouldn't change either the actual amount of crime occurring or the risk of being a victim).Iapetus (talk) 09:09, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The OP is pushing the right-wing mantra that cities with Democrat mayors (i.e. cities with significant non-white populations) are inherently more crime-ridden. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:27, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because of course there cannot possibly be any correlations between discriminatory lower pay for non-whites and poverty, and between poverty and higher crime rates. It can only be because "libs" are inherently criminal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.210.77 (talk) 16:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an article that presents data showing that murder rates per 100,000 people have been consistently higher in red states than in blue states during the 21st century, and that the gap is increasing. Cullen328 (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a forum to debate the politics of crime; it would be helpful to focus on ways to improve Wikipedia articles. -- Beland (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gunpowder75: Do you have any examples of differences between Democrat and Republican-led cities? I do see differences between state subarticles like Crime in Texas, Crime in Massachusetts, Crime in California, Crime in Florida, and Crime in Oregon. Whether tables of crime rate, overall number, both, or neither are included seems rather random; it probably just has to do with whether or not any editor has taken an interest in importing that data for a specific state. It would certainly be more informative if Wikipedia reported both rate and absolute numbers. (This data is available from https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/ and https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm if you or anyone else is able to help.) Are these the state articles you were talking about, or are there others that should be looked into? -- Beland (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Guinevere and Iseult

In the introduction to Keith Baines's rendition of Le Morte d'Arthur, Robert Graves wrote that, "Extramarital unions abound [in Camelot]... Guinevere comforts Iseult when she complains that sir Tristram has married the king of Brittany’s daughter, remarking that noble knights are often tricked into marriage but after a while weary of their wives and come back to their first loves."

In what story does this scene occur? I have searched The Project Gutenberg eBook of Le Morte D’Arthur, Volumes I and II, by Thomas Malory, but I cannot find where Guinevere comforts Iseult.

I searched for chapters that included Isoud (Iseult) and Guenever (Guinevere), but as far as I can tell, the only time these two characters are in the same chapter is Chapter LXXXI of Book X, but there is no comforting in that chapter. Schyler (exquirito veritatem bonumque) 19:35, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think he's talking about Book 8, chapter 37, where the comforting is done by mail:

Isoud made a letter unto Queen Guenever, complaining her of the untruth of Sir Tristram, and how he had wedded the king's daughter of Brittany. Queen Guenever sent her another letter, and bade her be of good cheer, for she should have joy after sorrow, for Sir Tristram was so noble a knight called, that by crafts of sorcery ladies would make such noble men to wed them. But in the end, Queen Guenever said, it shall be thus, that he shall hate her, and love you better than ever he did to-fore.

The corresponding passage in the Vinaver edition is in Book 8, chapter 2. --Antiquary (talk) 20:59, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

p. 200 in Baines. fiveby(zero) 21:13, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What % of cars bought in USA bought as whole, and what % using loans?

Doing a Google search shows the total credit card or loan debt on car loans, but doesn't seem to show what % of cars bought are paid in full so without having an auto-loan. Who could have that statistic? I realize now there is a 3rd possible category: could someone say, pay a car in 2 payments, that are a month apart? Say 1st payment is 50-80%. Would a car company allow that? And if they somehow did, would they charge a big interest in the 2nd payment? But since no loan is borrowed, I would still categorize this as a non-loan car bought. Thanks. 67.173.182.93 (talk) 22:51, 15 May 2023 (UTC).[reply]

According to this article, in the US, about 16% percent of new cars were purchased for cash in 2022, and about 60% of used cars. If a loan lacks a prepayment penalty, it can be paid off a month later with negligible interest expense. Cullen328 (talk) 23:04, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unless borrowing is strictly limited to dealer financing, it is going to require mixing bank lending data with dealer financing. Add loans from Grandma, for good measure. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 12:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The credit companies will compile that information. For example, Experian estimates that 55% of used cars are purchases using a loan while 80% of new cars are financed if purchased. There are two possibilities not covered in your question. Many cars are leased. So, there is an ongoing monthly payment, but no purchase. Also, people who purchase cars and own them can take out a loan against the vehicle. They are essentially selling the car back to themselves with a loan, but it doesn't count as a car purchase. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 18:11, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 16

U.K., Which software filters this news report talking about?

This news report in Pakistan news media says:

..the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Great Britain - had installed filtration mechanisms on Facebook resultantly nobody being able to upload sacrilegious content. ..

Which software filters - to have been implemented in UK as per - this news report may be talking about? Bookku (talk) 06:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Internet censorship in the United Kingdom article provides general info for the UK, but not about specific filters. Internet filters in general tend to be ad hoc, depending on current requirements. See also: Censorship in Saudi Arabia. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 18:44, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

U.K., help understand a confusing news report

A news report in standard.co.uk in earlier paragraph says an accused is found guilty of instigating acts of terrorism, in latter paragraph again says ".. He was cleared of a third charge of encouraging acts of terrorism. .."

Similar thing seems to be in this BBC news report too. Earlier para says "..convicting..one count of intentionally encouraging terrorist acts.." in later paragraph says "..He was cleared of a third charge of encouraging acts of terrorism. .." (Later BBC news report just for ref.)

1) What is this difference between 'intentionally encouraging terrorist acts' and 'encouraging acts of terrorism.' under British law?

2) Crown Court seem to be court of first instance, how many appeal levels would be available to an accused in UK after the Crown court decision?

Bookku (talk) 10:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not a lawyer, but this page gives an overview of the Terrorism Act 2006.

This account says that the various charges relate to seperate instances rather than charges relating to the same event.

For the second part of your question, see Appeals from the Crown Court to the Court of Appeal (England and Wales). The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom is the final stop. A further avenue if all else fails is an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights if there are grounds to claim a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. Alansplodge (talk) 10:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I missed to mention that I shall take note of this discussion @ WT:MOS/LEGAL#Attention to updating of MOS guidelines and related article talk page if any as needed.
Thanks @ Alansplodge for all the informative support.

Bookku (talk) 04:22, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 17

Endonym of South Africa?

When I tried to google I could just get few mere translations/transliterations of words 'south' and 'Africa' in some native languages.

Did South Africa* had any endonyms in native languages from pre-colonial times?

Geographical land or part there of, of the present country Republic of South Africa.

Bookku (talk) 05:28, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The endonym for South Africa in the official language of the Zulu people is iRiphabliki yaseNingizimu;^{[10] [11]} or, informally: Mzansi ("South").^[12] --136.56.52.157 (talk) 07:36, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article iRiphabhuliki yaseNingizimu Afrika on the Zulu Wikipedia also uses the informal name iNingizimu Afrika, a direct calque of South Africa or Zuid Afrika. However, "South Africa" is a concept created by the colonialization process. Since the concept did not exist in pre-colonial times, it will not have had a name. --Lambiam 12:01, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bookku -- There was almost certainly no term for South Africa as a whole before Europeans arrived, because it was never culturally unified. Notoriously, the crops that the Bantu peoples brought with them in their migrations from the north did not allow them to establish long-term successful agricultural settlements to the southwest of the Great Fish River, so there was a basic Khoisan vs. Bantu dichotomy. And of course there were many local groups of both peoples. AnonMoos (talk) 10:41, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As noted, South Africa wasn't a thing until 1910, previously it had been semi-independent colonies in the area; even those were built more-or-less arbitrarily by the colonizers, and don't have any connection to the pre-colonial peoples who lived in the area. Wikipedia has an article titled History of Southern Africa which will lead you in the right direction for understanding the political and cultural organization of the area pre-colonization. --Jayron 32 12:22, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 18

The Gyges, Lord of the Ring?

I don't understand why no connection is drawn between The Lord of the Rings and Plato's Myth of Ring of Gyges.
To me it seems quite amazing how similar the stories around the ring are after all. Should that just be a coincidence? 2A02:908:424:9D60:1728:3390:1D6B:BA69 (talk) 09:26, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who says no connection is drawn? Wikipedia draws attention to the connection for a start. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:48, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The passage was just removed as OR because it referenced "self-published" course material from an introduction to philosophy course from the Department of Philosophy of Oregon State University. --Lambiam 19:56, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The invisibility power is pretty much the only thing the two have in common. Tokien was not very interested in Mediterranean mythologies, but he of course received a basic Classical education of the type that was commonly given to middle-class boys in England at that time. There's a little discussion near the bottom of the Ring of Gyges article... AnonMoos (talk) 09:54, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another commonality is that the ring bearer is corrupted by the ring. No just man who puts it on "can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice". --Lambiam 20:15, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

However, someone who puts on Tolkien's One Ring is corrupted by the malevolent magical spells in the ring, while someone who puts on the Ring of Gyges is morally corrupted by having power without any social accountability. AnonMoos (talk) 21:28, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo 2 cancellation

Today's featured article Apollo 10 says "After the prime crew of Apollo 2, led by Wally Schirra, went to NASA management with a list of demands concerning their mission, Apollo 2 was cancelled in November 1966". ("Apollo 2" would have been the name of mission AS-205.) I also find in Canceled Apollo missions "The AS-205 crew were Wally Schirra, Donn Eisele and Walter Cunningham. However, AS-205 was later deemed unnecessary and officially cancelled on December 22, 1966." Finally, note 2 for that article says "Not long after Gemini 12 splashed down on November 15, 1966, George Mueller of the Office of Manned Spaceflight cancelled Apollo 2.

I would like to know more about this prime crew's list of demands, but everything else I can find about that mission just says it wasn't necessary. Hayttom (talk) 12:21, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The information is cited to two book sources, citations #18 and 19 in the article in question. That would probably be the first place you should look for your answers. --Jayron 32 13:20, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It should also be noted that the numbering of the early Apollo missions is confused by the fact that the numbers were applied retrospectively and unofficially until Apollo 4. The real truth is that there was never any Apollo 2 or Apollo 3. Apollo 1 was not known as such until well after the fact, named retrospectively after the families of the deceased astronauts requested it. Apollo 4 (SA-501) was the first post-disaster launch in the Apollo program in November, 1967. Because there was never any flights formally designated as "Apollo 2" or "Apollo 3", there are conflicting accounts as to what flights those should have been, based mostly on the unofficial speculation of various people based mostly on what they "considered" to be Apollo 2, etc. Besides the cancelled AS-205, Apollo 2 was claimed to be for AS-201, which flew before the Apollo 1 disaster; as noted at Apollo 1#New mission naming scheme, George Mueller (engineer) thought of the first three test flights, AS-201, AS-202, and AS-204 as 1-3, though I'm not sure how universal that belief is. In summation, there was no actual Apollo 2, not even hypothetically or retrospectively, except in the minds of several different people who "considered" certain missions to be "Apollo 2". It just didn't exist. Same for Apollo 3, which you can see is variously applied to AS-202 or AS-203. --Jayron 32 13:32, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing that may confound searches is that AS-205 did officially launch; it was repurposed as Apollo 7, [13]. The AS numbers are also a bit inconsistent; with AS-2XX numbers applying to Saturn IB vehicles, and AS-5XX numbers applying to Saturn V vehicles. However, even the AS system is not without its inconsistencies. It appears to have been started midstream, with the original Saturn I launches numbered SA-1 to SA-10, however starting with SA-6, the vehicles were renumbered starting with AS-101. --Jayron 32 13:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at Newspapers.com (pay site), the fatal craft was being called "Apollo 1" even before the disaster. After that, obviously, the program was in disarray for a while. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:35, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sort-of. Internally and officially, it was only AS-204. The "Apollo 1" moniker was something the press had started calling it, but there was no official numbering system for the Apollo missions outside of the AS-XXX system. That changed after the disaster when Mueller officially designated Apollo 1 and, later, Apollo 4 onwards became official designations. AS-204 was also recycled for Apollo 5, FWIW, as the same launch vehicle was used. --Jayron 32 17:47, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shades of Star Wars retrospective episode numbering and retrospective sub-titling. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:21, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Right. Like when the scroll started for The Empire Strikes Back it began "Episode V", and we're like "HUH?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:18, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From time to time I encounter someone saying that never happened, that IV was always IV. —Tamfang (talk) 23:05, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe they never saw the original in the theater on first release. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:30, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Citation #18 is a book which I don't think I'll buy. Citation #19 doesn't seem to mention the list of demands on the the cited page, but I might read the entire (free on-line) book anyway and may come across what I want to know. Hayttom (talk) 01:19, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rhyme scheme with apostrophes

I've been trying to update rhyme scheme with all the different notations people use for that idea, and get articles to use notation consistently. Does anyone know what the apostrophes mean in e.g. "ab' ab' b' aab'"? I see that on Comtessa de Dia. I dropped apostrophes from a similar string on Bestournés, on the assumption that this is the same as "AB AB B AAB". But now that I'm seeing it again, I'm not so sure? It's suspicious that the apostrophes seem to be separating stanzas, which is often seen e.g. "ab-ab-b-aab". -- Beland (talk) 18:12, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the uses by Bruckner,^[14] viz. ababc’ddc’ and ab’ab’b’aab’, there are no spaces. It does not seem to be separating stanzas in "Ab ioi". The scheme for the Bestournés song can be found in print here, together with numerous other examples. Note that this text uses two types of rhyme schemes, one with majuscules and no apostrophes, and one with minuscules and apostrophes. The introduction states that an apostrophe indicates "die überschüssige weibliche Endsilbe"^[15] ("the excess feminine [i.e., unstressed] final syllable"). I suppose that the stress in the b’ endings "-aia" of "Ab ioi" is on the penult. --Lambiam 08:06, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See also Masculine and feminine endings. This isn't anything to do with normal grammatical gender, but rather as poetic term referring to whether a word ends on a stressed or unstressed syllable. Generally, words with feminine endings are expected to rhyme their final two syllables, like "passion" with "fashion", which is considered a feminine rhyme. Words like "passion" and "luncheon", despite ending on the same sound, are not normally considered good rhyming candidates because the stressed syllables preceding the feminine ending don't rhyme. --Jayron 32 11:12, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 19

did Russia offered (or planned to offer) Liechtenstein, the state of Alaska?

id 122.59.57.169 (talk) 06:46, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you do a crude Google search, you can find this theory propounded on various unreliable sources in recent years. Every such website I have found is exceptionally weak, and the assertions posted on such websites are dubious and highly speculative. When I search Google Books and Google Scholar for anything about this, I come up empty-handed. Who knows? Maybe some Russian diplomat asked the royal family of Liechtenstein about buying Alaska and were told "no". After all, why would a tiny landlocked nation without a navy, whose current population is less than 39,000, want to govern a gigantic territory 7,600 kilometers away whose only known source of income at that time was sea otter and sea lion pelts? The Russians who had vast experience operating in Siberia and the North Pacific waters were unable to make money in Alaska. Why would anyone think that a miniscule European country half a world away could run that business any better? The whole thing is highly dubious. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Cullen328 (talk) 07:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Any substantive factual basis for the claim would have an equally substantive curiosity value, so in that case we would see an abundance of references in reliable sources to such a refused offer, just like there is no lack of sources^[16] for the Alaska Purchase. The absence of references in reliable sources implies the absence of a factual basis. --Lambiam 08:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The most promising, but still rather weak, reference that I've found is this 2018 article from Liechtenstein newspaper Liechtensteiner Vaterland. The title read "It is certainly not a rumour" (a quote), the lead is "In a letter, Prince Hans-Adam II. confirms an offer from the Russian tsar to the princely house of Liechtenstein to buy Alaska. He is not surprised by the lack of a written document." The article itself requires registration. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:48, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the tsar had a sense of humor. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:36, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wild speculation, but maybe it would have been a deal whereby Liechtenstein would acts as an intermediary to transfer the territory to another major power? Russia sells Alaska to Liechtenstein, then after a very short period Liechtenstein sells it to country X. Russia could then deny having ceded this strategic area to Country X, a move that might have caused negative reaction among other powers with interests in the region? --Soman (talk) 14:55, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article refers to a letter sent by the Prince to the Volksblatt, which can be read here. --Lambiam 18:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If this happened at all, it wouldn't have had anything to do with the place we call Liechtenstein today. The House of Liechtenstein was based near Vienna and ruled over lands that are now in Austria, the Czech Republic, and Poland. The territory of Liechtenstein was a formality that allowed the prince to have a seat in the Imperial Diet (Holy Roman Empire), but it didn't have any great economic or practical importance, and the princes seldom if ever set foot in it. Some of the princes such as Johann I Joseph, Prince of Liechtenstein were allies of Russia in the Napoleonic wars. So any such deal would have been to sell Alaska to the wealthy family to add to its large holdings, and not to connect Alaska to the territory of Liechtenstein itself. --Amble (talk) 18:20, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to the letter by Prince Hans-Adam II, the offer was not to the principality, but to the House of Liechtenstein. He remembers that this offer was repeatedly discussed in the family. Note however that the offer, if real, must have been extended prior to the Alaska purchase of 1867. The Prince was born in 1945, so it is quite unlikely that any of the family members discussing this had direct knowledge of the offer. No documentary evidence exists in the family archives, which the Prince ascribes to the loss of significant parts of the archives at the end of the WWII; part was burned and part was taken by the Soviets. --Lambiam 19:36, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which of Max Pemberton's mystery challenges were taken up?

The novelist Max Pemberton (1863–1950) created a challenge for G. K. Chesterton. Pemberton wrote an unfinished murder mystery, and Chesterton then responded by writing the resolution as determined by his fictional detective Father Brown.

Apparently, Pemberton set several of these "challenges" for famous mystery authors: my Father Brown collection's introduction mentions that he also set challenges for Arthur Conan Doyle (Sherlock Holmes) and Baroness Orczy (The Old Man in the Corner). Were those, or any other of his challenges, taken up? If so, in which publications can I find them? Equinox ◑ 13:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

St. Louis, Missouri - Union or Confedrate?

Was the city of St. Louis in Missouri a Union or Confedrate state during the Civil War? 86.130.77.121 (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Union. See St. Louis in the American Civil War#Civil War. Alansplodge (talk) 18:33, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as a city and not a state, it didn't have the status necessary to be anything during the civil war except what Missouri was. Missouri in the American Civil War was what is normally called a "Border State" euphemistically, which means that it was a slave-holding state that remained in the Union. Missouri is more complicated than some of the other such border states, as Missourians went and got themselves a second government, which while it lacked any real functional control over much of Missouri at any given time, they were so recognized by the Confederate States of America, and they sent representatives to the Confederate States Congress, see 1st Confederate States Congress and 2nd Confederate States Congress, which lists them. Missouri's confederate representatives continued to represent the whole state, and so technically, one of those representatives was elected to represent the district that contained St. Louis. In a practical sense, Missouri was still mostly a Union state, but it could be argued that it was both. --Jayron 32 18:50, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, thanks for the correction. The question is somewhat ambiguous. Alansplodge (talk) 22:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the Little House on the Prairie season 4 episode The Inheritance, a lawyer from St Louis had a box containing Confederate money. 86.130.77.121 (talk) 18:30, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May 20

The Ku Klux Klan and religion

I know the Ku Klux Klan was against Catholics and Jews. Does that mean they were all Protestant? If so, did they describe themselves as a religious group? Did they base their terrorism on Calvinist ideas like the Westboro Baptist Church, or other aspects of Christian theology? SuperfluousSpecies (talk) 17:29, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No. Have you read our article on the Ku Klux Klan? Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:27, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 242: / Line 242: @@
 :Well, as a city and not a state, it didn't have the status necessary to be ''anything'' during the civil war except what Missouri was.  [[Missouri in the American Civil War]] was what is normally called a "[[Border states (American Civil War)|Border State]]" euphemistically, which means that it was a slave-holding state that remained in the Union. Missouri is more complicated than some of the other such border states, as Missourians went and got themselves a [[Confederate government of Missouri|second government]], which while it lacked any real functional control over much of Missouri at any given time, they were so recognized by the Confederate States of America, and they sent representatives to the [[Confederate States Congress]], see [[1st Confederate States Congress]] and [[2nd Confederate States Congress]], which lists them.  Missouri's confederate representatives continued to represent the whole state, and so technically, one of those representatives was elected to represent the district that contained St. Louis.  In a practical sense, Missouri was still mostly a Union state, but it could be argued that it was ''both''.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 18:50, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 ::Ah yes, thanks for the correction. The question is somewhat ambiguous. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 22:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
+::In the ''Little House on the Prairie'' season 4 episode [[List of Little House on the Prairie episodes#Season 4 (1977–78)|The Inheritance]], a lawyer from St Louis had a box containing Confederate money. [[Special:Contributions/86.130.77.121|86.130.77.121]] ([[User talk:86.130.77.121|talk]]) 18:30, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 = May 20 =