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January 2

Backchannel communication between the belligerents in WW2

Can anyone recommend a good book about backchannel communication between the belligerents in WW2? I’m especially interested in communication between USSR and Germany while they were at war. Benjamin (talk) 06:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

There are some allusions in a popular book about Strategic Deception (not well-received by all historians) by Anthony Cave Brown called Bodyguard of Lies (Harper and Row 1975, 947 pages, ISBN 978-1-59921-383-5). that is very sympathetic to German officers, such as Claus von Stauffenberg and the 20 July plotters, who wanted to approach the Western Allies through various back-channels (usually about dumping the Nazis and uniting against the Red Army). The other question about German-Soviet communications is also interesting.

—— Shakescene (talk) 01:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

January 3

Towns of The Bahamas

For Local government in The Bahamas#Towns, I was able to find 32 town areas in the 2022 contested elections report, but this 2019 report says there should be 41. I'm wondering if some weren't included because there were candidates running unopposed? I've had trouble finding a straightforward list of town areas on Bahamas government web sites; does anyone have access to a good source for that? -- Beland (talk) 00:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the minutiae of Jamaican electoral practice, but in some other parts of the world (such as my own), not all constituencies of some administrative levels have their elections in the same year. For example, half or a a third might hold elections in one year, a half in the next or next but one, and so on. Something similar may be going on here: see Staggered elections. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 02:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

San Marino, and Saint Marinus's church

The page on San Marino mentions that Saint Marinus founded San Marino in 301 upon building a church (the page on Saint Marinus himself specifies "chapel and monastery.") Meanwhile, the Basilica di San Marino was constructed in the early 18th century on the site of an earlier 4th-century church that was demolished due to its poor condition. I have some questions:

1. Is this former church the same as the one that Saint Marinus founded?
   1. The basilica's page states that this old church was also dedicated to Saint Marinus; given that Saint Marinus was presumably canonized after he died (traditionally, in the mid-4th century), was the church dedicated to someone else prior?
   2. Actually, for that matter, when was Saint Marinus canonized?
2. Are there any depictions of this old church prior to demolition?

GalacticShoe (talk) 01:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak for this area, but I understand that in Roman-Celtic Britain, at any rate, such religious leaders were in this period commonly recognised as Saints while still active. 'Sainthood' was often a matter of local acclamation, and perhaps recognition by a local Bishop, rather than the result of some formal canonisation process, and not necessarily approved by or even even known to the central authorities in Rome. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 05:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The section Dedication of churches § Naming a church only describes early practices in England and Wales, but these were probably not radically different from what was customary elsewhere. In fact, the source on which the description in out article is based begins its exposition with, The history of the dedications of churches in England is largely that of the dedications of churches in other parts of Catholic Christendom.^[1]  --Lambiam 07:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

And in the Church generally, offices could be filled by public acclamation. Anatolius, bishop of Laodicea, who saved Christians in AD 262 by marching them out dressed as women, was acclaimed at Caesarea and ordained deacon, priest and bishop in one ceremony (not to be confused with Anatolius, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople in AD 449). 2A00:23C7:9CC0:F901:E5FB:171C:8FDE:8F18 (talk) 13:10, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

According to Canonization § Historical development, canonization only became the exclusive prerogative of the Pope in the 12th century.  --Lambiam 15:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all very much for the clarification. GalacticShoe (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The earliest manuscripts mentioning Saint Marinus and his life date from six centuries after his death, so all we know about him, including his claimed building of a chapel–monastery on Monte Titano, or even his presence there, is the stuff of legend. (This appears to be inconsistent with the statements in Basilica di San Marino § History, unless the document La Vita di San Severino referred to does not mention the name "Marino".) Our article on Monte Titano states, "According to the legend related to the Mount and its precincts, a small monastery existed on top of the Mount during the 8th century."  --Lambiam 15:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Apparently Egippius wrote in Latin. The Latin title is Commemoratorium vitae Sancti Severini,^[2] so there is no reason to use an Italian version of the title on the English Wikipedia. The name "Marinus" occurs in the text of the English translation of the book,^[3] but refers to an unrelated person.  --Lambiam 15:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Looks like AD 262 wasn't a good year for Christians. Henry Wace and William C Piercy (eds), A dictionary of Christian biography and literature (London 1911) recounts how "Marinus", who was about to be promoted to centurion, was denounced as a Christian by a rival. The judge sentenced him to death, sentence suspended for three hours to give him time to recant. As Marinus left the court, the bishop took him into the church. Lifting his cloak to reveal the sword at his side, he presented him with a Bible and asked him to choose. The soon-to-be-martyred Marinus took the book without hesitation. 2A00:23C7:9CC0:F901:B1F8:2B12:99E9:A29B (talk) 17:20, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to lie, I at first misinterpreted this as the bishop lifting his own cloak to reveal a sword, threatening poor Marinus here into choosing the Bible. GalacticShoe (talk) 01:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to research this, Lambiam. Given that the Commemoratorium vitae Sancti Severini doesn't seem to mention the right Marinus at all, I think it might be worth scrubbing it entirely from the pages on San Marino. Also of note, the Placito Feretrano, also mentioned throughout Wikipedia pages on San Marino, mentions the monastery explicitly, perhaps being the source of that legendary 8th-century monastery. It should be pointed out though that it is ostensibly an 11th-century copy of a supposed earlier document, and as such there are doubts about its authenticity. GalacticShoe (talk) 02:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

January 4

Citing a U.S. Gov't officials' letter, which was not sent and is a draft version.

I'm working on an article of my late father who died in 1972. Please feel free to review my article for a full understanding of my question and concern. The article: (User:Wdallen49/Bobbie R. Allen) contains citation #2 which is an eight page PDF document scanned from originals contained in my late fathers' files. This letter is obviously a DRAFT, thus never sent, but I believe a final version was sent by the author. I am not able to obtain a copy of the original nomination letter which was sent at this time. My question is, does Wikipedia allow citations of documents such as this? thanks very much for your assistance. Wdallen49 Wdallen49 (talk) 03:58, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There are a couple related issues with a source like this. First: it is a primary historical document, so any interpretation of it in any context must be done with care and cross-checking; for WP, primary sources are very limited in usage except as part of a secondary citation, or in a plainly self-referential manner, stuff like that. WP:PRIMARY is the main policy, and WP:HISTRS is the essay with a section on primary sources in articles on historical topics (as this is).

The second issue, assuming this document is to be used in an appropriate manner in the article, is that the document upload has no provenance (provided documentation of origin or curation). Where is the original document it was scanned from, or electronic archive it is licensed from? Are the archives considered reliable sources for historical documents, or mixed up or cross-contaminated with a lot of junk? Are the archives accessible in theory or practice by some WP researcher or editor who wants to absolutely authenticate this stuff for a thesis? (WP:V) That kind of thing matters.

If it's just a document found in your father's papers or something, then it can't be used in the article as scanned on Commons. However, that doesn't mean you can't start asking around archivists and librarians to see if someone might have a copy in some official archive somewhere, or if not, if someone would be interested in verifying and archiving your copy. If it's important to the larger story, or missing elsewhere, then that's one possibility you might consider to pursue this further. SamuelRiv (talk) SamuelRiv (talk) 05:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

What was the geopolitical status of early Soviet-adjacent republics like Bukhara, Khorezm, Turkmen, and Uzbek?

I've been working on the territorial evolution of the Soviet Union. I've done a ton of preliminary work but I have a few questions that my own research hasn't helped too much yet.

First, the nature of a union republic. What I do know is:

• 30 December 1922: The Soviet Union is formed by, among others, the Russian SFSR, which either includes or surrounds the Bukharan and Khorezm PSRs.
• 20 October 1923: The Bukharan PSR becomes socialist and is redesignated the Bukharan SSR.
• 19 September 1924: The Khorezm PSR become socialist and is redesignated the Khorezm SSR.
• 27 October 1924: The Bukharan and Khorezm SSRs are dissolved/reorganized into the the Turkmen and Uzbek SSRs.
• 13 May 1925: The Turkmen and Uzbek SSRs become union republics.

So, my questions are:

• Were Bukhara and Khorezm actually part of the Soviet Union? Or were they technically independent, like Tuva? Or would they perhaps be considered territories, a la Kansas Territory in the U.S., considered part of the country but not fully part of the political structure?
• Likewise, what about the Turkmen and Uzbek SSRs between their formation and being admitted to the union?

The info I have on that last bit comes from http://www.libussr.ru/doc_ussr/ussr_2469.htm which, when run through Google Translate, reads " The 3rd Congress of Soviets of the USSR welcomes with satisfaction the free expression of the will of the peoples of the Turkmen and Uzbek Socialist Soviet Republics on the entry into the USSR of the Turkmen and Uzbek Socialist Soviet Republics. " So there was definitely a national status change, but I'm trying to figure out to what degree.

So the tl;dr of this is, if you want it distilled: Between 27 October 1924 and 13 May 1925, what was the geopolitical status of the Turkmen and Uzbek SSRs, with relation to the Soviet Union? --Golbez (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

And if anyone knows a website or community that might have people who know, that would be great to know. Thanks! --Golbez (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy links: Bukharan People's Soviet Republic, Khorezm People's Soviet Republic, Turkmen Soviet Socialist Republic, Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic, History of the Soviet Union. What I understand from reading our articles, the Bukharan People's Soviet Republic was originally independent but joined the USSR, renamed Bukharan SSR, on 19 September 1924. Likewise, the Khorezm People's Soviet Republic was renamed Khorezm SSR and joined the USSR on 20 October 1923. Both were shortlived, divided up by redrawn borders on 27 October 1924, resulting in the formation of the Turkmen SSR and Uzbek SSR.  --Lambiam 21:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I said exactly all that above. --Golbez (talk) 22:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Though, you're incorrect: No source says Khorezm joined the USSR on Oct 20 1923., or that Bukhara joined on Sept 19 1924. Just that they were renamed. Part of this is, I haven't been able to find any source who explains their status during that time. Were they part of the Soviet Union before becoming SSRs? --Golbez (talk) 22:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Obviously (IMO), the renaming was on the occasion of their accession to the Union. The lead of our article History of the Soviet Union states that the four original founding republics (the Russian SFSR, Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR and Transcaucasian SFSR) were joined in 1924 by the Bukharan People's Soviet Republic and Khorezm People's Soviet Republic. This cannot be quite correct if the Khorezm PSR ceased to exist nominally in 1923. (Disclaimer: I have not consulted sources outside of Wikipedia, and some of this information in our articles is not cited to sources.)  --Lambiam 13:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

"Obviously (IMO), the renaming was on the occasion of their accession to the Union." Perhaps, but I can't source your opinion. And then there's still the question of the Turkmen and Uzbek status. --Golbez (talk) 14:58, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

There's probably no satisfying final answer to the question. The Emirate of Bukhara was already a Russian protectorate from 1873, so it was neither part of Russia nor fully independent of Russia. The Soviets' views on nationality, borders, and socialism in one country vs proletarian internationalism were also unsettled at this time. Here's one academic paper that may be useful: [4]. Here's also a snippet from the Bukharan PSR constitution that declares it to be "a single, indivisible and independent state within the limits of its present state frontiers". [5] --Amble (talk) 20:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Ooh, thank you. That academic paper was helpful - the idea that they initially acted with an independent foreign policy, and then, "Though Bukhara and Khwarazm were legally independent states in a treaty relationship with the USSR, they were made part of the process of the national-territorial delimitation of Central Asia that produced two (and eventually five) union republics," with the footnote of, "They were referred to as dogovornye respubliki, treaty republics, unlike the soiuznye respubliki, union republics, that were a part of the USSR," which might well be the answer to my Turkmen and Uzbek question as well. I'll need more research into that part, but this seems to settle for me that the Khorezm and Bukhara PSRs were nominally independent but wholly within the Soviet sphere, probably akin to Tuva (though less so, since the Soviets actually recognized Tuva).

So, since you found that bit of gold, got anything on the Turkmen/Uzbek question? :) --Golbez (talk) 23:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The only things I can find for the "SSR" stage are very emphatic on which classes hold power (workers and peasants in charge), and of course those classes are united regardless of borders. (For example [6]). Here's another article that might be interesting: [7] --Amble (talk) 00:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

January 5

Mentally ill MP in 1861

In the 25th May 1861 issue of Punch 'Essence of Parliament' (page 209) we read "MR. ROEBUCK had been informed and believed that in the minority against the Repeal of the Paper Duty, there appeared a gentleman who was not mentally qualified to take part in any business at all. The Member for Sheffield brought the subject before the House, and an explanation of the case was offered by a friend of the individual in question. It was stated that the mind of that person had been perturbed, and that he had voluntarily retired to an asylum, into which he could not be received until two medical men had given a certificate couched in language so strong as perfectly to justify inquiry whether the document were a formality or a representation of facts. But it was also stated that the Member alluded to was placed under no restraint, and choosing to come from the Asylum to the House, did so, conversed rationally, voted, and went away quietly. Mr. Punch, having recorded the circumstances, leaves an unpleasant subject, with the single remark that though, as it happened, the registration of the vote was of no consequence, it will be well that whippers-in on both sides use sound discretion when any similar case again arises. In these days people are not so reverent as of old, and cause for a certain kind of talk should be avoided. The rule is not now quicquid delirant * * * plectuntur Achivi, in regard to Kings, Lords, or Commons." What I would like to know is - who was the individual in question, and did he make any kind of recovery? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 03:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

A little googling finds this blog entry, which identifies the MP in question as Andrew Steuart, MP for Cambridge. That's all I have for now. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 12:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

A little more here in The Spectator, and here in The Lancet, both from 1861. No news as to his later health, although he retired from the Commons in 1863, and lived to be 82. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 12:46, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Here he is in the divorce courts in 1870. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The Edinburgh Academy Register mentions him as "Dux of the Whole School" in 1838, and mentions a son, George Alexander, who died in a shooting accident at Winchester in 1866. There's a little more detail in the Winchester College Register, here.

Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 10:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Captain D'Agoust

This painting from May 6, 1788 didn't show him properly. Can you search if exist another one who showed only him very full in face, and upload it on commons? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.103.13 (talk) 14:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not a painting, and not "from" 1788 - it's a much later illustration in a book by Francois Guizot, born 1787. As the image file says. I expect the face is imagined. Commons has no other image of him. Johnbod (talk) 04:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

But can you search for another one in other sites? 193.207.171.173 (talk) 06:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You can, but it must be appropriately licensed to upload it to Commons. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, but can you help me to find one if really exist? Thank you. 95.248.237.42 (talk) 09:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Hundred Days (1815)

What were the Royal regiments send by Louis XVIII to arrest Napoleon, and their respective commanders? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.103.13 (talk) 15:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Easily accessible we have Histoire du Consulat et de l'Empire (19/20), by Adolphe Thiers with a politically not entirely neutral tone. The military were in a shamble following various vicissitudes after the Vienne Treaty. Thus Louis was not acting as a war leader directly but delegated the function to the Comte d'Artois (who could have possibly be designed a candidate for the throne himself by his supporters). The Comte was to be the principal leader assisted by the Duc of Berry, the Duc of Angoulême and the duc of Orleans; the Marechal Macdonald (small d) would be assisting the Duc of Angoulême and the Marechal Ney was to be on his own. Marechal Macdonald then gathers the 20e et 24e de ligne and the 13e dragoons. Ney gathers five infantry regiments: the 15e léger, the 81e de ligne, the 76e, the 60e and 77e, three cavalry regiment 5th dragoon, 8th chasseurs and the 6th hussard and he is also expecting the 4e de ligne and the 6e léger for later. Together with general Lecourbe and general de Bourmont he's adding to it the 60e and 77e de ligne, also the 5th dragoons and the 8e chasseurs. Near Paris the duc de Berry gathered various royalist supportes including the Gardes Nationales. Macdonald's troops show no will to fight when Napoleon arrives in Lyon; Ney some days later turns to Napoleon without his own troops explicitly displaying disaprovement. Thiers doesn't mention the 15th de ligne which I found rallied Napoleon early, thus there must be missing various units which were activated locally by Prefects. News being propagated through the Chappe telegraph specific instructions were not necessary regarding foreign intruders (Napoleon was monarch at Elba.) Hope this helps. --Askedonty (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ancien regime in France

In 1789, before the revolution, where was the Military Tribunal and who were its judges? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.103.13 (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

A Royal officer, the Prévôt des Maréchaux, who was also tasked with matters related to logistics, usually itinerant similarly to other Marshalls and various other imperial officers around the world and history seated at the next semi-important town or city near of the related occurrence and proceeded assisted by his lieutenants, although one of those lieutenants could be the one presiding instead. Those, and the prévôt were judicially required to adequately consult local or more general civil jurists in accordance to the case considered however. Indemnisation of the possible victims of a given misdeed could be dependent on local jurisprudence, or the case could be otherwise related to other civil offenses. The supreme headquarters of the Prévôté originally under the Constable of France was the fr:Table de marbre au Palais, in Paris. --Askedonty (talk) 07:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, then who was the head of Table de marbre in Paris in 1789, before the revolution? 95.248.237.42 (talk) 09:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

It depends. The table (of black marble), was occasionally used for gala dinners (La table de marbre). Askedonty (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/etat/c_etattitle.html 95.248.237.42 (talk) 10:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Good choice. The table itself was destroyed in a fire in 1618 but La table de marbre says that in June 1629 a royal decree transfered the Constable charge to the marshalcy by order of seniority thus in 1789 the charge might have been held, according to your source by Louis-Georges-Erasme de Contades, Maréchal de Contades, Commander in Chief for the Alsace province. Note that regarding military judicial matters, such level would have been concerned only with appeals, most of which would have been blocked or treated at much lower hiererachical levels. --Askedonty (talk) 10:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, closed. Can you help me also with "Captain D'Agoust"? 95.248.237.42 (talk) 10:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately no. There are too many d'Agoult at the same period both in the gardes and occasionally captains. The image of only one is easily accessible: Antoine-Jean. According to fr:Famille d'Agoult, two d'Agoult are in the gardes du roy and of age, relatively to the episode, but Jean Antoine is a Count and Antoine-Jean a Viscount, then Louis-Fouquet de Vincens who is their elder by 20 years and would be 51 in 1788 may match better Carlyle's description. Of interest is that pamphlet directed against an attempt at the wrongfull arrestation of members of Parliament by a Captain d'Agoult sent by autocratic ministers Siège of the Palais; alternatively, Kidnapping of the delegates (fr) in the context of a struggle over authority between parliament and the government (see: Jean-Jacques Duval d'Eprémesnil), but the pamphlet is not illustrated. --Askedonty (talk) 12:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, closed. Can you help me also with "Hundred Days (1815)"? 95.248.237.42 (talk) 12:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

(Answer displaced to the relevant paragraph) Askedonty (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, closed. 193.207.167.111 (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

January 6

Seal of Gedialah

in Gedaliah, son of Pashhur refers to http://www.jpost.com/Local-Israel/In-Jerusalem/Seal-of-King-Zedekiahs-minister-found-in-Jlem-dig. Bibleplaces.com had a skeptic. https://www.bibleplaces.com/blog/2008/08/seal-of-king-zedekiah-official/ "Should an individual scholar be so elevated on the basis of his/her own unconfirmed claims? Is there relevance to the fact that the City of David Foundation is “right-wing”?" Does somebody have a good source that says this artifact is bona fide? Temerarius (talk) 21:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The skeptic's post does not cast aspersions on the find itself being genuine, but notes that "there is significant discussion among archaeologists about" the "sensationalistic" identification of the owners of this and an earlier found seal with individuals named in Jeremiah. Unfortunately, no reference is provided to any of this discussion.  --Lambiam 09:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

See Neriah for the most famous seal impressions... AnonMoos (talk) 18:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

January 7

Was Eliza Jumel's attorney Hamilton Jr.?

The article on Eliza Jumel reads in part "The apocryphal story is that she was represented by Alexander Hamilton, Jr., the son of Alexander Hamilton, whom Burr shot and killed in a duel years earlier. What actually happened was that Hamilton Jr. held her assets in a paper only trade during the divorce, returning the assets to her later. He was not her attorney."

The article on Alexander Hamilton Jr. says "Hamilton represented Eliza Jumel against her husband Aaron Burr during two years of divorce proceedings"

Seems contradictory, and not only do they both cite the same book by Ron Chernow, but they cite the same page. The preponderance of other fairly reliable sources like the [8]NY Law institute seems to suggest Hamilton was her lawyer. — THORNFIELD HALL ^(Talk) 09:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Some book sources: "Alexander Hamilton Jr. was Eliza Burr's lawyer in the divorce proceedings."^[9] "the divorce was finalized by Jumel's lawyer, Alexander Hamilton, Jr."^[10] I could not gain access to any edition of the book by Chernow.  --Lambiam 22:20, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Poland 1939 WWII Air Raid Codes

Looking for a list of air raid codes by city that were broadcast on Polish radio when WWII started. Albert-family (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Cultural amnesia

I've noticed since about 2016 or so, a very strange, almost Orwellian phenomenon that I call cultural amnesia, but I suspect there is a more accurate term in use by historians, psychologists, sociologists, and others, and that my ad hoc term doesn't come close to the real thing. My question is, what is the real term called by academics? I will very briefly explain the kind of idea I'm talking about by using a simple, current, and real-world example, and let others guide me in the right direction as to what this idea is called: Today on Reddit, there was a very popular discussion about how people were outraged that resellers were buying up all the cakes in Costco, leaving few of them available for the general public. This phenomenon has been covered by the mainstream media.[11] The thing is, Costco was founded in 1983 as a wholesale corporation. Businesses have been buying products at Costco for the express purpose of reselling them for forty years. Yet, just within the last year, vast numbers of the general public have forgotten this fact, which is why I use it as an example of cultural amnesia. But it also indicates other things going on, in my mind. Customer demographics change over time, and younger people might have forgotten the original purpose of Costco and have grown up thinking it was a different kind of company based on their own personal experience. My overall point, however, is that this kind of "amnesia" is happening all over, and I see it quite often. Can anyone else explain what I'm seeing in terms that are already in use? Viriditas (talk) 20:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Rather than amnesia, which means loss of memory, this is simply ignorance and trolling, which is very common on Reddit and every other free-for-all forum. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know a name for this, but it's not new. George Santayana famously wrote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" well over 100 years ago. --ColinFine (talk) 15:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the phenomenon is particularly strange. And definitely not 'Orwellian'. Just a part of culture as discourse. To take a random example from politics, if you are a Pakistani, discussing the struggle for independence against the Raj during the earlier part of the 20th century, it is easier to do so if you 'forget' that those arguing for it were doing so for an independent India, and not for a Pakistan that nobody had imagined at the time (See Mukulika Banerjee, The Pathan Unarmed: Opposition & Memory in the North West Frontier, School of American Research Press, 2000, for an extensive discussion on this). And yes, as the older generation 'forgets' this, as no longer politically expedient, the next generation simply takes it more or less for granted that what they have now is what they wanted then. Culture isn't something people passively absorb, it is something they actively recreate and reshape through their own participation in it. And do so selectively, remembering what is useful, and forgetting what is best forgotten, or what simply no longer matters. We all do this on an individual level, so it isn't at all surprising that collectively the same thing happens. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The term recency illusion tends to be heard specifically in relation to language usage, but really is broad enough to cover what's being asked about. --142.112.220.136 (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Never rebuilt Japanese cities

Are there examples in history of Japanese settlements (cities, village, etc...) destroyed by natural catastrophes and never rebuilt? Thank you. 79.42.51.153 (talk) 21:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

See Ghost town#Asia. General Ization ^Talk 21:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

See also 13th century in Japan. Nichiren talks a lot about natural catastrophes at that time, so there's probably a lot. Viriditas (talk) 21:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding examples of permanently abandoned settlements, for example Tagajō, a regional administrative centre of Mutsu Province in the 9th Century, was destroyed by the 869 Jogan earthquake and tsunami. The remains were covered by sediments dated to the 10th century but the city was rebuilt. The Unzen disaster levelled large areas of Shimabara and Higo across the Ariake Sea but didn't stop them being rebuilt. I'll keep looking but most settlements are located for a reason and that doesn't change even when there's a disaster. Mikenorton (talk) 22:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn’t an exception be coastal towns or low lying areas such as flood zones that are inundated? There’s many examples of abandoned settlements that were permanently flooded. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Possibly smaller settlements, but in another example, the small coastal city of Kamaishi, Iwate was completely destroyed by the tsunami from the 1896 Sanriku earthquake, it was rebuilt, then heavily damaged by the 2011 Tohoku earthquake tsunami and again rebuilt. No doubt some examples will turn up, but looking at areas affected by the Japanese disasters that I know about, I'm not finding anything obvious. Mikenorton (talk) 22:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Here where I am in Hawaii there are many small settlements that were destroyed and never rebuilt. It might have something to do with cultural traditions or just the difficulty of rebuilding a town on a fresh lava flow, I don't know. Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Also the inadvisability of doing so. In places like Hawaii and Iceland, eruptions sometimes recur in the same place after an interval of years, decades or a few centuries. The currently evacuated town of Grindavik is built on a lava field reckoned to be 2,350 years old, and look how that's working out. {The poster formerly known as 878.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

To examine the thinking behind this, Dunwich was an influential port, capital city and seat of a bishopric. The invading Danes (who were pagan) put paid to the last function. They took out the bishop of Elmham as well. Coastal erosion caused the river estuary to move and buildings to fall into the sea but Dunwich regained some religious function (Greyfriars Franciscan priory is still extant). However, when order was restored the dioceses of Dunwich and Elmham were united, with the seat at Elmham. 2A02:C7B:228:3400:6512:B1E5:DFB6:B10B (talk) 13:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Hodie mihi, cras tibi

What is the oldest known occurrence of the epitaph (or ‘cynical jeer’ in RLS’s words) “Hodie mihi, cras tibi”? Did it perhaps already exist in antiquity (not necessarily as a Latin epitaph, but the same idea expressed in connection with death)? I guess I'm interested in both (first known Latin epitaph of this kind, and earlier similar adages). ---Sluzzelin talk 22:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The oldest use in a book that I can find is in a letter by Francesco Filelfo (1398–1481).^[12] Contrasting "hodie this, cras that" was of course also used by ancient Latin writers, and there have to be attestations of the sentiment "that which befalls me now may also become your fate" being expressed, but I am not aware of these coming together. The poem from which we have the aphorism Carpe diem reflects on the brevity of life, but not on a contrast between those who died and those who still live.  --Lambiam 20:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Lambiam, I haven't found any older exact quote (let alone epitaph)! There is, of course, a voluminous history of contemplating one's own death (see e.g. Memento Mori), but what I find so striking about this succinct phrase is the fact that a dead person is saying it very directly to me, not some philosopher or spiritual leader in general. More recent epitaphs sometimes include skull and bones, making Stevenson's 'cynical jeer' more understandable. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Bowen, Barbara C. (1984). "Roman Jokes and the Renaissance Prince, 1455-1528". Illinois Classical Studies: 142. has Cosimo de' Medici to Palla Strozzi in 1433. Epistolae was 1485 but i cannot tell if Lambiam's link is words by Francesco Filelfo or if he is publishing an earlier letter? fiveby(zero) 00:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The letter by Filelfo is dated iij.Nonas Decẽbres.M.cccc.xxviiij.^[13] This edition of his letters was published soon after his death; many more would follow.  --Lambiam 09:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

January 8

Is this newspaper clipping from 1985 real?

I've seen this image of a newspaper clipping [14] passed around online a fair amount, but I haven't been able to track it down in any newspaper archive. Does anyone know if it is real, or what paper it was published in?

Text:

Friday, August 9, 1985

Naked Witches

Salem, Ore.

Police say about 150 nude women fondled each other and joined in a ceremony involving the display of symbols associated with satanism at a state park, but no laws were broken.

Associated Press

Margalob (talk) 01:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It looks fake. 1985 was the height of the Satanic panic in the US, partly encouraged by conservative Christians, emboldened by the backing of the Reagan administration. If the AP had reported this, there would be entire books written about it. The fact that there aren't tells me that it never happened. Also, there's something odd about the layout of the clipping. Keep in mind, people used to churn out fakes and hoaxes way before the internet. Former reality television show actor Donald Trump even tried a hoax of his own in the New York Times just four years after this with the Central Park jogger case, so it was a popular pastime for people with too much time on their hands. Viriditas (talk) 02:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Tipper Gore was not in any way part of the "Reagan administration." The PMRC backed widespread claims that rock music was satanic, MTV was satanic, Dungeons and Dragons was satanic, etc... while the Reagan administration touted "Just Say No." 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Hoax? I suppose you're talking about this ad? (TimesMachine link for those who have access -- see page 13.)

I thought it was a deeply nasty piece of writing and it permanently colored my view of Trump. But I don't think it was a hoax. --Trovatore (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I was 24 then and it did not happen, for it or anything like it wouldn't have happened. In addition, the column's width is narrow, ok for ads perhaps, but not for most subject matter. Also the ink and the type are far too crude for 80s copy which was way better than decades earlier. Even worse, a quick search shows that the date of the supposed incident is Vivek Ramaswamy's birthdate, which strongly suggests it is a recent hoax. Modocc (talk) 03:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Good points. However, a reverse google image search traces it to a Twitter post[15] which attributes it to a real clipping from The 15 Association newsletter, a gay BDSM fraternity.[16] According to that link, the image is from a newsletter in the possession of the GLBT Historical Society. Viriditas (talk) 03:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

A Twitter post? Really? That claims that an otherwise unknown AP blurb was printed up solely in an obscure newsletter that happens to be buried in some box held by a gay organization. Real cute. I'm not buying into that mess... You do know the Associated Press distributes its stories nationwide. Right? Modocc (talk) 04:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Just reporting what I found; I’m not giving it any kind of authenticity. Viriditas (talk) 04:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Here is a reliable source reporting on the ad. It is also covered in the section Central Park Five § Media coverage, cited to reliable sources.  --Lambiam 10:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I offer to you, the Red Deer Advocate, August 10, 1985, page 16: [17]. --Golbez (talk) 04:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The last paragraph about the cadets is hilarious. Viriditas (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The Oregon Statesman covered it on Aug 7, 1985. Newspapers.com is a pay site, but that's where it is if anyone wants to know. And the Asbury Press covered it on Aug 9, its first paragraph matching that clipping exactly, though it's a longer story. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The Women In Conscious Creative Action was incorporated April 11, 1984. [18] and they have a Facebook webpage. The AP didn't get the Wicca organization's name right, and from what Norma Joyce said of their event the two cadets reported to the police that reported to the AP, a load-of-rubbish regarding them fondling each other. Of coarse cameras were fewer, but it is possible they took pics of their body paint (I have old pics of my fiancée with body paint that she took long before we met). Back then we didn't have mobile phone cameras everywhere though. Modocc (talk) 05:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

This page scan is even better! Nude women legal Fish love prevents sleep Tick Tock · VCRs for $769. https://imgur.com/2MSq2jy Temerarius (talk) 20:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

https://imgur.com/a/M5f8PjF "Meet draws complaints" by Theresa Nova of the Statesman-Journal 7 Aug 1985 Temerarius (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

say in recent airline scare

In recent light of Alaska Airlines Flight 1282, I'm hoping Sully Sullenberger would have his say in the case. If that happens, perhaps he might report from KPIX-TV, right?2603:7000:8641:810E:5086:91A8:2BB3:5B76 (talk) 05:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

"We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." Clarityfiend (talk) 06:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

But if he gets his say, I predict that he will then say that this was something that should not have happened. Also predictably, he will say that the crew responded quite adequately, as they have been trained to do. Since he is a pilot, not an engineer, his opinions on the structural failure itself are as good as yours and mine.  --Lambiam 10:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Adequate would have been pulling the CVR circuit breaker after landing. --46.114.2.44 (talk) 03:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Ugliness

Unattractiveness#Legality states: "Similarly, according to The Economist, Washington DC has laws that prohibit lookism." If this is really the case, then there must me pertinent citable laws, right? So why is this presented like secret insider information then? Hildeoc (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It might be possible to find that info in the cited article, but it appears to require a subscription. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I have a subscription, and it doesn't really go into more detail. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

D.C. CODE ANN. §§ 2-1401.02(22), 2-1402.11 (2001) from Corbet, William R. (2001). "Hotness Discrimination". Catholic University Law Review. fn #62

Since, as a foreigner, I'm not familiar with US law as such, would you, Fiveby, or anybody else in the know mind including this accordingly in the said article, upon further review?--Hildeoc (talk) 20:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian nationalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_nationalism).

There is something vary confusing. Writen is: "The origins of modern Ukrainian nationalism emerge during the 17th-century Cossack uprising against the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth led by Bohdan Khmelnytsky. Ukrainian nationalism draws upon a single national identity of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, that dates back to the 9th century." But, historically, it is not true. At this time an ukrainian identity was not known. None of the above: "...national identity of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history..." was not Ukrainian. The term "ukraine" originated from "the edge land", "the military border zone", "the Land-in-Between", "no man's land"... against the Ottoman Empire. All the Cossack Hetmans, such as Boghdan Khmelnytsky, Taras Bulba, and many others, ran in the fight "for "Russian land" and "for Russian soul and faith" but not "for Ukrainian" whatever. We can talk about Ukrainian nationalism only after the October Revolution, when the territorial units of the former Soviet Union began to recognize and identify themselves as territorial and national entities, units and identities. FilipTu (talk) 12:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Are you asking a question? --Error (talk) 12:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Nationalism often utilises stories, legends and myths that are not (or not provably) historically true. British nationalism embraces stories about "King Arthur" which might have been distantly inspired by a sub-Roman British war leader who, if he existed at all, was not a King. Swiss nationalism pivots around "William Tell", a story with no historical proof whatsoever and almost certainly pure fiction.

The passage you are critiquing talks about belief in a shared singular history: it does not assert that the belief is factually accurate. As for whether such beliefs arose from the 17th century or in the early 20th (about which I have no position), the article should follow Reliable sources only. If it does not, it should be improved, and indeed it carries prominent banners at the top of the Article and Talk pages saying so. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 13:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The Reconstruction of Nations by Timothy Snyder is a great book about the origin of Polish, Lithuanian and Ukrainian nationalisms. All of which, according to the author, only started to emerge in the 19th century, creating national foundation myths that went back to the Middle Ages and skipped the Early Modern period. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

In the section Ukrainian language § History of the spoken language we read, "During the 19th century, a revival of Ukrainian self-identification manifested in the literary classes of both Russian-Empire Dnieper Ukraine and Austrian Galicia." The reactions of Tsarist Russia – persecuting expressions of Ukrainian culture and especially language, banning the teaching of Ukrainian from schools, a ban on Ukrainian-language books, public performances and lectures, and so on – did little to suppress the nationalistic sentiments. As our article states, "By the time of the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the collapse of Austro-Hungary in 1918, Ukrainians were ready to openly develop a body of national literature, institute a Ukrainian-language educational system, and form an independent state (the Ukrainian People's Republic, shortly joined by the West Ukrainian People's Republic)." So, while one can question the use of the term "revival" in the first sentence, it appears that the roots of Ukrainian nationalism are older than the October Revolution. The sentence quoted above about "[t]he origins of modern Ukrainian nationalism" is somewhat ambiguous. I think it is true that the intelligentsia promoting Ukrainian nationalism viewed the Cossack rebellions as a national(istic) uprising, in which case these are the claimed origins (not claimed by Wikipedia, but by Ukrainian nationalists). For all I know this viewpoint may well be a myth invented centuries later, but without reliable sources stating so we cannot put the alternative point of view in the article.  --Lambiam 19:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

January 9

What is this folk song?

in the film Derzu Uzala, the soilders sing a sort of folk song, first heard at 2:42 in the begginging when the soilders are walking and singing. ( and later on as well)

Does anyone know what it is?

Thanks

Stamp- 2:42 ( if you search full movie on youtube sorry can't link ) 2600:1700:3D74:F010:C166:782E:E90F:F63F (talk) 03:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

It starts actually at 2:38 (link).  --Lambiam 11:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC)