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January 5

Questions

1. Are there any Spanish dialects that have /v/ or /z/ phoneme?
2. Does Portuguese have a past anterior? Like French eus parle or Spanish hube cantado? If it exists, it would be formed in following way:

tive cantado
tiveste cantado
teve cantado
tivemos cantado
tivestes cantado
tiveram cantado

3. Does Catalan have a future subjunctive? --40bus (talk) 16:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question 1

Spanish v and z Judaeo-Spanish#Phonology if you consider it a dialect:

While Spanish pronounces both b and v as /b/ ([b] or [β]), Judeo-Spanish distinguishes between the two with b representing [b~β] and v representing [v]: bivir /biˈviɾ/ ('to live')

The article also displays /s/ and /z/ in the consonants diagram.

Linguistic features of Spanish as spoken by Catalan speakers:

Higher frequency of /s/ voicing and the occurrence thereof between vowels.

es:Variedad del idioma español en territorios catalanófonos:

* En los lugares donde se conserva el fonema [v] en catalán, tanto en valenciano como en balear, también se transfiere esta diferencia en castellano entre b [b]/[β] y v [v] a las palabras cognadas.

Articulación de la s sonora [z] con mayor frecuencia, e incluso entre vocales.

--Error (talk) 13:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not a Spanish speaker, but I translate:

"Variety of the Spanish idiom in Catalan speaking territories"

"In the places where is conserved the phoneme [v] in Catalan, so much in Valencian as in the Balearics, also is transferred this difference in Castillian between b [b]/[β] and v [v] to the cognate words."

"Articulation of the s sounds [z] with more frequency, is included between vowels." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7B:228:3400:6512:B1E5:DFB6:B10B (talk) 14:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question 2

I typed "past anterior" into the search box, and as I suspected would happen it redirected to pluperfect. You're using the preterite of ter to form your pluperfect, but the article says the imperfect form of the auxiliary verb is used in practice. 31.113.52.197 (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "past anterior" is a form where auxiliary verb is put on the preterite. It is also called "second pluperfect". --40bus (talk) 19:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you mean "auxiliary verb is put on the past participle"? 31.113.52.197 (talk) 19:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question 3

3. Doesn't seem like it. Catalan_grammar#Verbs. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:58, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

40bus -- The conditional in Catalan is formed the same way as the future tense, but using different endings (as is also the case in French), but there's no "future subjunctive" that I can see in my "Teach Yourself Catalan" book... AnonMoos (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

40bus, in Romance languages that still have it, the future subjunctive is antiquated or rare, and a Teach Yourself wouldn't include it, as it is as useless to language learners as teaching thou and thee conjugations is to English language learners. Though Spanish has a future subjunctive (or had it), Catalan does not. There are several ways to express future action in Catalan: in the indicative, simple or compound future tense, or in the subjunctive, the present or past perfect. Some believe there is a shade of difference in meaning, with the subjunctive carrying less certainty; others believe they are identical in meaning. Source: § 4.5.1.3 at El subjuntiu en català. Mathglot (talk) 20:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Future Subjunctive is vibrant in Portuguese (possibly aided by its compact tense endings). 80.47.0.18 (talk) 13:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

January 6

What is a gange?

The Ordnance Survey claims Frankley Waterworks has an inlet gange. I can't find this in any dictionary. That could be a typo but for what? 'Gauge' seems unlikely. From the road I see a walled structure and hear the sound of swirling water, maybe to oxygenate it on its way (south) from one reservoir to the other. Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:20, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Purely speculation on my part, but to me it sounds like a misspelling (possibly based on a mishearing) of gauge.~~ Apologies, I need to read more before I comment. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of note is that if you search for gange in the benchmarks website, you also get two other results mentioning a "ganger's hut." Ganger is a known word here (see wikt:ganger) but I highly doubt that this is the intended meaning. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possible choices other than gauge and ganger include grange (which appears in a few placenames in the survey) and range, which I could definitely imagine someone mistyping. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Shantavira: I also think it should be "inlet gauge". But what makes you think this is an Ordnance Survey error? Bazza (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not shown on the OS 1:25,000 map anyway. [1] Alansplodge (talk) 17:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it is a variant or misspelling of Wikt:gang: 11. (now chiefly dialectal)... a course, path, track.? In other words, the course of an inlet? Alansplodge (talk) 17:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That seems likely to me, the sense known from gangway, gangplank and similar. There's also gangue, but that's obviously not it, although that derives from the Greek gang meaning mineral vein. Mikenorton (talk) 12:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that anyone can register for an account with the Bench Mark Database to log their finds.^[2] Is there a formalized relation with the Ordnance Survey? As I try to parse the entry, it appears that a surveyor has made a benchmark on a rivet, and a user has spotted it and logged it in the database. Near a reservoir one expects to find one or more inlets, and it is maybe not strange if these are equipped with a gauge. --Lambiam 23:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The benchmark data comes from the OS benchmark database but i is not unknown for them to make mistakes. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Shantavira: "gange" does appear in the database file you linked above. "gauge" still seems to be the likely intended word. Bazza (talk) 10:23, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find the word 'GANGE' once in the complete benchmark archive linked to on the OS page, on line 285837 as the field value NBM RIVET INLET GANGE S SIDE RD NE ANG. The word 'GAUGE' occurs 39 times, 10 of which are in some entry with NBM RIVET. The occurrences of 'GAUGE' are in the combinations 'TIDE GAUGE' or 'TIDAL GAUGE' (33 times), 'DEPTH GAUGE' (twice), and 'FLOOD GAUGE', 'HEIGHT GAUGE', 'WATER GAUGE' and unqualified 'GAUGE' each once. --Lambiam 21:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'Rivet' may very well be a typo too. A river gauge is a common enough thing, and the location makes this seem plausible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The database contains 6 occurrences of NBM RIVER versus 43,503 occurrences of NBM RIVET. Surely, these are not 43,503 typos. --Lambiam 10:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NBM is the abbreviation for "New bench mark" according to the Bench Mark Database and rivet benchmarks appear in google image searches and are listed in this blog about the types of benchmarks used. Modocc (talk) 22:50, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense, though it isn't obvious how a surveying rivet could be used to gauge anything. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:58, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The location indicated is Frankley Waterworks' pumping station. Perhaps the rivet benchmark is used to establish its elevation and maintain an accurate water-level gauge of an inlet there. Modocc (talk) 00:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although benchmarks were historically often carved into masonry the ordnance survey also used rivets driven into cracks in masonry - see here for an example. Mikenorton (talk) 10:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's similar to a genge, but plays better on the wing. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC) [reply]

So the complete string is: "RIVET: NBM RIVET INLET GANGE S SIDE RD NE ANG (ODN 186.373m, AGL 0.0m)." So quite likely to be an (odd) abbreviation for something? Although I have no idea what. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:25, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is the similarity of the letters "n" and "u" [3]. At school, the Latin teacher gave us ten words to translate into Latin, with a reward for everyone who got all ten answers right. Everyone fell down on one question - "pass" - writing augustiae. "But that's what's in the book!" they exclaimed. So the teacher opened the book, and there it was - angustiae. 2A02:C7B:228:3400:5558:2319:26C2:7300 (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 1:2500 map of 1905 has Inlet Valve Chamber (along with a corresponding outlet valve chamber nearby). Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 16:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all. I've made the appropriate correction. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever it is, I hear there's a whole bunch of them in India. —Tamfang (talk) 00:55, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

January 8

A joke non-natives may not understand

Hi all, I'm not a native speaker. Recently, I heard a joke I didn't figure out, which goes like this: "Why did the t-rex need a nap? Because he was wiped out". I guess this supposed joke is based on a pun, but I couldn't find out what it was, even though I'm familiar with the regular meaning of every word, separately, in this supposed joke. Could you (mainly native speakers) help? 2A06:C701:7463:BA00:D5A4:C525:C506:B570 (talk) 02:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Cambridge Dictionary gives a definition of wiped out of "extremely tired". HiLo48 (talk) 02:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. Thank you ever so much. 2A06:C701:7463:BA00:D5A4:C525:C506:B570 (talk) 03:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would think they're equating "wiped out" to "extinct". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Extinct" is what the OP seems to call "the regular meaning". Without it they wouldn't say "Got it" after they were told about the rarer meaning by which the whole excerpt could become a pun (hence a "joke")... HOTmag (talk) 04:44, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your mind-reading skills are exemplary. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not mind-reading skills but rather common sense.

What do you think the OP meant when they responded "Got it"? How did they get the pun they'd asked about, without being aware of the regular meaning "extinct"? HOTmag (talk) 06:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is the "regular meaning" of "wiped out", in your opinion? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Wiktionary gives not less than 7 meanings for wipe out:

1. To destroy. 2. To physically erase, 3. To do away with; to cause to disappear. Only the next meaning is: 4. To exhaust (someone), to tire (them) out. It seems that the first meanings (ibid.), which are pretty close to each other (wipe out = remove completely), are a way more prevalent than the fourth one (and than the fifth one and than the sixth one and than the seventh one, ibid.).

@HiLo48: What do you think about this interesting dispute? In other words, why did you only give the OP the meaning of: wiped out = "extremely exhausted", without giving them also the previous meaning (wiped out = removed completely)? HOTmag (talk) 07:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, HiLo48 assumed (IMO quite reasonably), given that the OP had stated they knew a "regular meaning" of wiped out, that this "regular meaning" was the primary meaning, "erased", "destroyed", "obliterated". Clearly, "Why did the t-rex need a nap? Because he was obliterated" does not make sense and is unfunny, so they supplied a secondary slang sense, the one that is applicable here to make the pun work. This does not require mind-reading skills either; just the application of common sense. --Lambiam 10:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With a dash of nannyism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Agree (without any dash of nannyism).

2. Additionally, the OP had stated: "I guess this supposed joke is based on a pun", so they must have known the basic meaning ("obliterated"), without which there would be, not only no joke (as you correctly explained), but no pun either - of which the OP eventually became aware - as clearely provable from their final response "Got it" i.e I understood the joke due to the pun: Yes, actually, they couldn't have understood the joke if they handn't been previously aware of the basic meaning ("obliterated"), because, not only - the theoretical version "the t-rex needed a nap because he was obliterated" - wouldn't be a joke, but also - the alternative theoretical version "the t-rex needed a nap because he was exhausted" - wouldn't be a joke either.

3. However admittedly, even the current version: "because he was wiped out", is a pretty corny dad joke (again without any dash). Here is a better one; or rather, the following dad joke is so funny just because it's so bad... Prepared? So let's get started: What’s brown and sticky? A stick !!! Ha ha... Wow... Here is a better one: Why are elevator jokes so classic and good? Coz they work on many levels !!! Ha ha... Great... I'm proud of myself as a joke teller! Here is a much better one: "Oh mom, how much did it cost? Oh my kid, two. Oh mom, what two? Oh my kid, what how much?" Ha ha... Yes, I'm hearing your laughter, and this makes me satisfied more and more... I'll be glad if you admit my last one was a way more sophisticated than my previous ones, even though all of them are extremely bad, actually worse than any other dad joke I've ever heard, so they really deserve an anti-medal for being the worst ones, don't they?.... HOTmag (talk) 13:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get the last one, although I'm not sure whether it depends on my lack of nativity or my lack of sophistication... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I presume it's just based on the fact that "how much did it cost" depends on what "it" is, which is never specified. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, well. I just came up with another corny dad joke, though. -'Would you say Germany makes the world's greatest music?' -'Well, accordion to the Bavarians...' 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's supposed to be a bad joke, so no wonder about its meaning is expected. My grandpa told me he had heard it on his visit to Jerusalem in the seventies. HOTmag (talk) 12:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the oldest version of this pseudo-joke, was invented by the Hungarian-israeli comedian Ephraim Kishon, and became well known in the seventies, in a well known Hebrew sketch comedy scene (called "The garage"), preformed by a famous Israeli comedy trio. The Hebrew version is a bit different from what you described, though, but it still involves the same idea, which goes like this:

"The Minister of Finance sits in a restaurant. Suddenly the Minister of the interior enters. So the Minister of the Interior asks him "how much?", so the Minister of Finance says to him: "seven", so the Minister of the Interior says to him: "what seven?", so the Minister of Finance says to him: "what how much?"...

On youtube, in this sketch comedy scene, at moment 7:42, one can hear this pseudo-joke being told in its Hebrew version (described in the previous paragraph), for the first time in history (in the seventies). The teller, who was an actor pretending to have a heavy Hungarian accent, was sure (i.e. pretended to be sure) it was a funny joke, and so did his listeners (actors as well), so they rolled in laughter (all being a part of the comedy), as can be heard in that link. This pseudo-joke is well known in israel for its supidity, and is regarded as a very famous silly pseudo-joke intended to make the audience laugh - not because it is funny - but rather because the teller pretends to think it is, so the mere funny point is only the manner the teller pretends to be sure the pseudo joke is a real joke. 2A06:C701:7463:BA00:D5A4:C525:C506:B570 (talk) 13:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

“There is to me” possession

In numerous languages, the way to express possession is by saying something along the lines of “There is to me an A”. For example, a Wiktionary article uses a Latin sentence from Ovid that begins “Est mihi fīlia (I have a daughter),” using this type of construction with the 3rd-person singular form of “sum” with the dative form of the first-person singular pronoun. This is also how to express possession in Hebrew (with the phrase יש לי, conversely אין לי (there is not to me) is how to say “I don’t have) and at least one Celtic language. I think a similar construction is also possible in Japanese, with “I have five siblings” being “私には5人の兄弟がいます” as per Google Translate and DeepL (with both returning the original sentence when translated back to English. What is the explanation for the prevalence of this construction type? Primal Groudon (talk) 18:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have a paragraph at Existential_clause#Indication_of_possession, although it doesn't attempt to answer the "why" question. Here's one paper that talks about some of the ways possession can be expressed with some discussion of how they might arise: [4]. --Amble (talk) 19:11, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This type of speech, "there is y to x", or "there exists y for x", is pretty common in logic. For example, the logical (arithmetical) sentence "every integer has a larger integer" is translated into the formal language of logic: "for (=to) every integer there exists (=is) a larger integer".

However, the correspondence between "every x has y" and "there is y to every x" (or "for every x there exists y"), is not a one-to-one correspondence. For example, logic makes a semantic distinction between "for every person there is a father", and "every person has a father". Check: "For every person there is a son" (correct), vs. "every person has a son" (incorrect). This semantic distinction between both expressions, is not easy to understand for native speakers of the languages you've indicated, because they interpret "for every x there exists y" as "every x has y". It's only when students natively speaking those languages start learning the formal language of logic, that they notice the semantic distinction between both kinds of expressions. Anyway, the type of speech you've indicated is well rooted in the way logicians express ideas of "having" and of existence (e.g when expressing "every integer has a larger integer", as: "for every integer there exists a larger integer"). HOTmag (talk) 19:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's the same in Russian: I have = у меня есть (lit. with me is). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The English verb have can indicate possession, but in the sentence I have a petty boss the speaker does not claim that their boss is in their possession. In the Germanic languages there was a sense development from a sense of literally holding something you picked up, to a wide range of senses, including not only that of possession but also a more general one of there being a relationship. Many other languages did not have a similar widening in which the same construction came to be used for holding something and other relationships. --Lambiam 10:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This Germanic distinction, which can be described as widening, can also be seen as a compromise between consistent use of ‘to be’ and consistent use of ‘to have’. Examples for the former have been discussed above. An example for the latter is Chinese, where ‘have X’ (有X) is used for ‘X exists’. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 08:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's something similar in Polish too, but only in the negative, so "there is beer" in Polish is jest piwo (word for word: "is beer"), but "there is no beer" is nie ma piwa ("not has beer"). — Kpalion^(talk) 14:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Serbo-Croatian there exist both nemati and its antonym imati. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 15:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC) (edited 15:05, 10 January 2024 (UTC))[reply]

If it's a property of Polish as well as of Serbo-Croatian (and Czech?), then I wonder if it's a common property of many (all?) Slavic languages. Additionally, if it's a property of Chinese as well, then what about other Sino-Tibetian languages? Interesting anyway... HOTmag (talk) 15:15, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not in Russian, as JackofOz wrote above. In Czech, while nemít is used in some cases for the translation of ‘there is not’, in other cases other words are used: není (<nebýt) and neexistuje (<ne+existovat).[5]. I guess it's not so easy to wrap this into a simple rule. BTW, German is even weirder: Standard is ‘es gibt’ (lit. ‘it gives’), but some dialects in the south use ‘es hat’ (lit.: ‘it has’). But anyway, this is off topic, since none of these includes “... to me”. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 09:56, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

January 9

Why I see you are a bee, or in brief: Y.I.C.U.R.A.B.

For the time being, this is the longest meaningful abbreviation I've invented.

Assuming that also I.C.Q (=I seek you) and likewise is allowed, and also numerals are allowed (e.g. 2.B.4.U), what is the longest sentence (or expression) of this type, in English?

Note that special characters, like: @,&,$,%,#,=,>,+,* (and so forth), are excluded. Of course, acronyms (e.g. U.N and U.S.A and U.K and the like) are excluded as well.

Additionally, examples (of any length) in other languages will be helpful (Unless they are in: Chinese, Japanese, Ancient Egyptian, or in any other language whose orthography is not based on any alphabet). Thanks. HOTmag (talk) 07:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you will allow numerals, I dimly remember a bad Anglo-French bilingual joke involving the death by drowning of some oddly named cats, culminating in a punchline rendible as 1 2 3 4 5 (un deux trois cats sank.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 08:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't aware of it. Thx. HOTmag (talk) 09:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Dutch one, XIMATZN, which (when spoken quickly but letter by letter by a Dutch speaker) sounds like ik zie Emma thee zetten, meaning "I see Emma make tea".^[6] --Lambiam 09:55, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Thx. But are the first letters XI pronounced "ik zie" or "iks i"? Additionally, is the last letter in the last word (zetten) pronounced or silent? HOTmag (talk) 10:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

XI is pronounce like /ɪksi/. But this is how the ⟨k z⟩ in the sentence is pronounced: the obstruent /z/ is devoiced to /s/ by progressive assimilation to the preceding voiceless /k/. Compare the pronunciation /ˈdɪk.sɑk/ of dikzak. Wiktionary gives the pronunciation of zetten as /ˈzɛ.tə(n)/: pronouncing the /n/ is facultative, depending on the speaker, the region and the register. The major difference is that the name of the letter N is pronounced /ɛn/, not with a schwa but with a front vowel. --Lambiam 18:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, the assimilation /z/-/s/ often occurs, and not only with /z/ but also with /v/ (e.g. in "het vee") and likewise. However, it doesn't occur when the whole expression is uttered word by word. Compare English: "give it-to me": when uttered word by word, one should hear the sound /t/ twice. Maybe that's why you had added the condition of being uttered "quickly". However, in my criterion, "piece-see" can't be abbrieviated as P.C: Although this assimilation is likely to occur, it is not if the whole expression is uttered word by word, which is a condition I require - otherwise I wouldn't rule out the abbreviation (will) E.C. either - when meaning: (will) "he see". Anyway, I admit the Dutch example you presented is interesting. HOTmag (talk) 09:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FUNEM? S,VFM. FUNEX? S,VFX. LFMNX.

Have you any ham? Yes, we have ham. Have you any eggs? Yes, we have eggs. I'll have ham and eggs.

(Dredged up from a distant childhood, the only source I know being my father.) -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 10:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What accent is it? A Dutch one? HOTmag (talk) 10:23, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was (supposedly) Swedish: from the "Swedish Made Simple" sketch by The Two Ronnies (see The_Two_Ronnies#Notable_sketches). Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 10:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) It's a Two Ronnies accent. Video on YouTube Bazza (talk) 10:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A champion not for its own length, but for the expansion factor. may be Voltaire's letter rebus in French, G. a. , given in reply to a rebus dinner invitation by Frederick the Great. It expands to J'ai grand appétit ("I have a great appetite").^[7] --Lambiam 10:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thx. HOTmag (talk) 10:23, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I remember a rhyme: YYURYYUBYYURYY4 me.

Too wise you are,

Too wise you be,

Too wise you are,

Too wise for me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7B:228:3400:A180:B29C:E1CD:CF6B (talk) 13:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, it's longer [8]. 2A02:C7B:228:3400:A180:B29C:E1CD:CF6B (talk) 13:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, provided that YY is being pronounced "two wise". In my criterions, though, YY should be pronounced: "why why", so the whole chain of words becomes ungrammatical. Instead of YY you could have written 2Y's, but the combination Y's consists of three characters, as opposed to the rule requiring a single character for every word. On the other hand, if you pronounce every character separately, then 2Y's should be pronounced "two why apostrophe ess". Anyway, thank you for your new idea. it was interesting! HOTmag (talk) 14:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HOTmag: 2Y's? Oh, the horror! Bazza (talk) 19:35, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, I, too, dislike adding an "apostrophe-s" for indicating the plural form. So, as you can understand, what I wrote to the user I was responding to, was not in my opinion, but rather in a hypothetical opinion which whoever disagrees with me (and with you) could adopt for defending the attitude presented by the user I was responding to.

I hope my clarification was not that complex... HOTmag (talk) 20:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The version I knew had as the third line ICUR > 'I see you are' -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 10:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I used to have a book, a collection of verbal/literal curiosities, which included at least one extended passage written in this manner. The 'rule' of composition was as follows: B > 'be', 'bee'; QQ > 'to queue'; CCC > 'sees', 'seize'; AAAA > 'foray'. Therefore the exception to pronouncing the number was that three of any letter simply meant the plural without a count.

The passage concerned a classical tale, of which my only memory is the repeated O CCCR > 'O, Caesar!'. I associate this book with William Safire, but whether he wrote the whole book, or this section, or other parts, I am not sure. Sorry to be so vague. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 10:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why CCC > 'sees', 'seize'? HOTmag (talk) 10:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this may be the item I remembered. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 13:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The plural of C, usually written as Cs or C's (as in "three C's in a row"), is pronounced the same as seize. --Lambiam 10:18, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course Cs (as well as C's) is pronounced like seize and like sees, but this fact has nothong to do with my question you've responded to, which asked why CCC had been equated with sees (and with seize) by a previous user. HOTmag (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Back in 2020, a fantastic French one was cited, which makes use of all 26 letters of the alphabet, each exactly once. It doesn't include the ligatures and diacriticized characters, which are not considered distinct letters of the alphabet.

MUOBZLNDSATEGPYWQFIJKCRXHV

emme-u-o-bé-zède-elle-enne-dé-esse-a-té-e-gé-pé-i grec-double vé-qu-effe-i-ji-ka-cé-erre-ixe-ache-vé

ému aux baisers d'Hélène (déesse athée), Égée, pays grec, doux, bleu, vécut effigies cassées et rixes achevées

--Theurgist (talk) 14:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC) [edited by linking every word to Wiktionary entry --Theurgist (talk) 08:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)][reply]

Quite interesting. Thank you. However, please notice "aux" is not exactly pronounced as "u o" is pronounced. The same is true for the pair "double, doux-bleu". HOTmag (talk) 14:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The -u- is the /u/ of ému. Also, while just double is pronounced /dubl/, I hear the French pronunciation of ⟨W⟩ as /dubløve/, the same as that of doux bleu vé-. --Lambiam 18:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re. your first comment, I agree (for some reason I didn't notice the fact you've just pointed at). Re. your second comment, it may depend on the variety of French. In my accent, I always make a distinction between W (in French) and doux-bleu-V. HOTmag (talk) 20:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the d in d'Hélène is muted... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You mean, it's pronounced /t/? --Theurgist (talk) 08:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was \zɛd\ instead if \zɛ\. Sorry. I must have been rusty. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Me the same. I think, no joke, insufficiently ABBA inspired --Askedonty (talk) 22:12, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are Ralph 124C 41+ and L.H.O.O.Q. which links to gramogram – Group of letters pronounced as if a word, with several references. --Error (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this article. maybe we should add all of the examples given in this thread to that article. HOTmag (talk) 15:20, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not add any examples unless they can be sourced. --Lambiam 10:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The French phonetic pangram can be sourced to the book Jeux verbaux et créations verbales,^[9] ISBN 978-2-200-61812-4. It occurs on page 93 in the print edition, and its "translation" is given as Ému au baiser d'Hélène (déesse athée), Égée, pays grec doux, bleu, vécut effigie cassée et rixe achevée. It almost makes sense, although lacking a subject (Paris?) but not humour (the oxymoronic atheist goddess). --Lambiam 10:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ISNAQTSNAQTSNAQTSNAQT

I seein' a cutie seein' a cutie seein' a cutie seein' a cutie seein' a cutie... (goes indefinitely)

seein' = seeing 115.188.140.167 (talk) 23:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SN, is pronounced see-en, and is not pronounced seein'. HOTmag (talk) 07:59, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A bigger problem is that the letter 'a' tends to be stressed, whereas the article 'a' is unstressed, so the part 'I seein' ' is colloquial, whereas 'a cutie' is stressed, causing a kind of dissonance or disjunction, although I guess it could be alleviated somewhat by adding an M like 'IMCNAQT...' 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:29, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dental fricatives

I personally can't tell the voiced (/ð/) and voiceless (/θ/) dental fricatives apart—they both sound alike to me. Is it possible for oblivious speakers to unknowingly "mispronounce" certain words by uttering them with the "wrong" dental fricatives without realizing that they have those sounds mixed up, or do we generally subconsciously use the right one most of the time? – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 17:52, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oblivious speakers can mispronounce any words, like pronouncing origins as /ˈɔɹəndʒɪz/, or States as /ʃɝʃ/. I have no data on the frequency of accidental erroneous substitutions by native speakers, but I do not have the impression that getting /ð/and /θ/ mixed up is more common than making a /d/ – /t/ error. Note also that there is more to it than the voiceless–voiced contrast; see Pronunciation of English ⟨th⟩. --Lambiam 18:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After going through Th (digraph) again, I came across this: "This unusual extension of the digraph to represent a voiced sound is caused by the fact that, in Old English, the sounds /θ/ and /ð/ stood in allophonic relationship to each other and so did not need to be rigorously distinguished in spelling. The letters ⟨þ⟩ and ⟨ð⟩ were used indiscriminately for both sounds, and when these were replaced by ⟨th⟩ in the 15th century, it was likewise used for both sounds." – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MrPersonHumanGuy --English "function" words (this, that, there, then, they, the) generally begin with [ð], while lexical words (think, throttle, thalassocracy) begin with [θ]. There are also part of speech distinctions: wreath noun vs.wreathe verb. I can't say if a native English speaker would notice one isolated word, but native speakers would definitely notice someone who only used one sound for both standard [ð] and [θ]... AnonMoos (talk) 23:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hardly notice it when a non-native speaker pronounces the word "this" like /dis/ or /zis/; I think I'd notice it much more if they used /θis/. And if they used /ðin/ for "thin", I'm not sure that I would immediately understand it. --Lambiam 10:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you're a native English speaker, so your testimony about yourself has made me notice that the distinction made in English between /ð/ and /θ/ (which I personally do make) is probably not between phonemes but rather between allophones, i.e. it does not bear any semantic influence, as opposed to the distinction made in English between the sounds d/t (e.g. between "dip" and "tip") or between the sounds z/s (e.g. between "zeal" and "seal"), which does bear a semantic influence. However, /ð/ and /θ/ are not regular allophones, because the "correct" pronunciation of regular allophones, e.g. between the pronunciation of "the" in "the apple" and in "the man", is usually influenced by the phonetic environment (e.g. "apple/man" is considered to be the phonetic environment of "the" in the above examples because the "correct" pronunciaiton of "the" depends on whether the next word "apple/man" begins with a vowel or with a consonant), but the distinction made in English between /ð/ and /θ/ is never influenced by the phonetic environment. That's why I'm not quite sure whether the distinction made in English between /ð/ and /θ/ is really between allophones only rather than between phonemes. To put my question more practically: Is there any pair of words, bearing different meanings, but pronounced almost the same way - except for having the sound /ð/ in one word and the sound /θ/ in the other word? I think it's a very interesting question, which may influence your question as well. HOTmag (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)We noticed it when our Portuguese tutor, discussing the use of the second person singular, pronounced "thy" as "thigh". 80.47.0.18 (talk) 16:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent example. See below. HOTmag (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How do you (=the OP) distinguish between thy and thigh? Do you really pronounce them the same way, although their meanings are different? HOTmag (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I say "thy thigh", they almost sound identical. The only difference I might notice is that one dental fricative is probably supposed to have a bit more of a hiss (if that correctly describes it) than the other. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 18:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since you do notice the "difference" (as you call it), so you've received an answer to your question, from an unexpected direction... HOTmag (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In what part of the English-speaking world are "thy" and "thigh" pronounced the same way? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In no part of the English speaking world. The pair "thy-thigh" was presented by me in order to make the OP notice they do make a distinction between both fricative sounds, contrary to what they had claimed in the beginning of the thread. HOTmag (talk) 07:56, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

thy

thigh

Here are recordings of both, spoken by the same speaker from Silicon Valley. --Lambiam 10:00, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, non-native speaker here, but there's a potential problem with using thy as an example. The word isn't commonly used in contemporary English. When people encounter it, it's mostly in Early Modern English texts (Shakespeare for example), written before the Great Vowel Shift was complete. To make some rimes and word plays in such texts work (or simply to get the archaic feel), they have to be pronounced according to an earlier version of the English vowel system, with which the word thy could get associated. So, the vowel of thy could be different from the one in thigh, which is primarily associated with the contemporary vowel system. (When somebody above wrote “How do you distinguish between thy and thigh?”, I immediately thought: simple, the vowels are different.) PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:30, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry? Both "thy" and "thigh" are pronounced with /-aɪ/, according to Wiktionary. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "thy-thigh" question you've quoted at the end of your recent response, was not presented for the sake of non-native speakers of English, and even not for the sake of most of the native English speakers, but rather for the sake of the OP alone, who is (I'm pretty sure) a native English speaker who claimed they didn't distinguish between both fricatives. Anyway, regarding the question I've presented to them, what really matters is not the phonetic distinction between thy and thigh in Old English, but rather is how the OP pronounces those words in the OP's own pronunciation of contemporary English. HOTmag (talk) 13:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When I think about it, the difference may be easier to notice when it's the last sound in a word rather than the first. The "th" in breath (/brɛθ/) seems to have the so-called "hiss" thing I described earlier while the "th" in breathe (/bri:ð/) doesn't. I can also see how truth, which is supposed to sound like it rhymes with proof, (/truːθ/) would sound like it was spoken in a certain foreign accent if pronounced to sound like it rhymes with prove. (/truːð/) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Any person claiming they don't phonetically distinguish between /θ/ and /ð/, may ascribe the phonetic distinction between "breath" and "breathe", to the phonetic difference between the vowels alone - being: /ɛ/ in "breath" and /i:/ in "breathe", rather than to the phonetic difference between /θ/ and /ð/ - which is claimed to be unrecognized by that person. That's why I insisted on the thy-thigh example, because those words have the same vowel (in contemporary English), so the phonetic distinction between them must be ascribed - by every native English speaker (including the OP) - to the phonetic difference between /θ/ and /ð/ alone. HOTmag (talk) 13:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. However, I still think certain words like their, there and they're (in which the dental fricative is at the beginning) could be pronounced either /ðɛər/ or /θɛər/ and still sound normal. (at least in comparison to /tɛər/, /zɛər/ or even /vɛər/, which might sound like how they're said in some non-Anglophone accents) My acceptance of th-interchangeability in those cases could be the reason I started this very thread in the first place. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:51, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To me, whoever pronounces: (stay) "there" like: (stay) /θɛər/, is not different from whoever pronounces: (Silicon) "valley" like: (Silicon) /fæli:/. If you think /θɛər/ sounds normal, you must think /fæli:/ sounds normal as well. I'm not going to rule out any, I just remind the price one should pay for consistency. Anyway, if you recognize the phonetic difference between /v/ and /f/ - because you want the words "van" and "fan" to be phonetically-distinguished from each other - since they are also semantically-distinguished from each other, then you must also recognize the phonetic difference between /ð/ and /θ/ - because you want the words "thy" and "thigh" to be phonetically-distinguished from each other - since they are also semantically-distinguished from each other. HOTmag (talk) 13:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

January 10

Phrase construction with alone adjectives

Hello. From Size-asymmetric competition#Definition of size asymmetry. This kind of construction is frequent in Latin languages but it is correct and a good choice in English? "Resource competition can vary from completely symmetric... to perfectly size symmetric"?Pierpao (talk) 13:39, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what an "alone adjective" is, but the sentence itself is perfectly fine and well-constructed (if a bit long). Clarityfiend (talk) 15:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot. Pierpao (talk) 16:05, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have written "size-symmetric", with a hyphen. The spelling in the article is inconsistent; there are 16 occurrences of hyphenated noun–adjective compounds (12 × "size-asymmetric" including that in the title of the article; 3 × "size-symmetric"; 1 × "undersize-asymmetric") against 3 of unhyphenated compounds (1 × "size asymmetric"; 2 × "size symmetric" including the use in the sentence quoted above). --Lambiam 09:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

January 11

Spark out

What is the origin of this phrase? I was looking at wikt:spark out and I see it means "Completely asleep or unconscious." But it says nothing about where it's from. Is it a Cockney thing? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cartoon iconography or related? As in old comic strips and cartoons with boxers knocked out while stars orbit around their heads... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly a bit of hyperbole for the spark of life being out. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 14:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 263: / Line 263: @@
 What is the origin of this phrase? I was looking at [[wikt:spark out]] and I see it means "Completely asleep or unconscious." But it says nothing about where it's from. Is it a Cockney thing? [[Special:Contributions/205.239.40.3|205.239.40.3]] ([[User talk:205.239.40.3|talk]]) 09:58, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 :Cartoon iconography or related? As in old comic strips and cartoons with boxers knocked out while stars orbit around their heads... [[User:Wakuran|惑乱 Wakuran]] ([[User talk:Wakuran|talk]]) 12:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
+:Possibly a bit of hyperbole for the [[spark of life]] being out. [[Special:Contributions/41.23.55.195|41.23.55.195]] ([[User talk:41.23.55.195|talk]]) 14:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)