Wikipedia talk:In the news/2016 RD proposal

Proposal to simplify ITN/DC

All this strife about "notability". The DC were originally written to stop ITN from being an obituary. It happened anyway, so RD was created.

If the deceased person passed WP:AFD then for RD let "notability" be satisfied. Get more quality content up, regardless of the subject. If there are so many quality articles about RD people (unlikely) then we can revisit.

If a death is so newsworthy that it gets daily coverage from death to funeral (Thatcher, Mandela, Michael Jackson) then give them a blurb. And let the mistakes of the past just be in the past.

My two cents anyway.

Good luck! --166.137.97.109 (talk) 22:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as nominator --166.137.97.109 (talk) 22:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. I'm not really clear on how this proposal is different from anything that we do already, or even what problem this is attempting to address. The whole point of discussing the nomination is to come to a consensus about notability. 331dot (talk) 22:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Reply Sorry I wasn't clear. I'm saying throw out the "notability requirement". Just get rid of it, and strike the wording from WP:ITN/DC. WP already has WP:NOTABILITY requirements, let them be good enough. The goal is to get more quality content on the main page and eliminate discussion about "notability". The quality check would still stand, so at worst it would be no different, and at best there would be more articles going to the main page and fewer rules to deal with. --166.137.97.109 (talk) 22:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
    • I don't think ITN/DC has a "notability" requirement. It has a requirement that the individual was important in their field that made them notable. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:00, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
      • "notability" is used all over the drug dealer, the CIA guy and the musician, but for the purpose of this suggestion, they're the same thing. Get rid of the " importance " requirement. The other points still stand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.97.21 (talk) 23:39, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• The drama vs. obit ticker argument. While I'd like to see less bickering over whether a nom gets posted or not, opening the floodgates doesn't seem to be the solution. "Significance" (/notability/importance/etc.) is there to limit the number of nominations passing through here, be it blurb/ongoing/RD. If not, this is just a version of ITN/R where instead we'd be posting articles listed in Deaths in 2016 daily. Is that a good thing? Perhaps. When we say ITN suffers from systemic bias, this would be a good way to increase the exposure of quality articles that wouldn't normally be considered. Though the inevitable fallout when an obscure nom pushes a popular entertainer off the template may need to be addressed.

Numbers-wise, take for example a slow day (10 April): 5 deaths - 2 red links, 2 stubs and one decent article (which was incidentally posted). 1 in 5 - that's great. But what about a bad day (3 April): 29 deaths - 2 red links, 15 stubs, 8 needing citations and 4 decentish articles (2 posted). That's roughly 30 potential noms. Even if you were to discount on average half as redlink/stubs and another quarter that won't be improved, do we want a turnover of 5-6 deaths hitting the main page on the same day? Those are two extremes but, given that we recently expanded RD because of unfortunate outliers recently, methinks there'll be more deaths eligible than not under this proposal. Fuebaey (talk) 00:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• How many articles linked in Deaths in 2016 have the quality to be main page ready? Let's do a quick count. Be back in a few minutes. --Jayron32 19:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Just checked April 13: of the 7 present, 4 were stubs or marginally above stubs, and the other three had short biographies, likely not extensive enough for a quality article on the main page. The best of them is probably Mariano Mores, and it would need significant expansion of the biography and much referencing work to clean it up. Let's try April 12th. Hold on a sec. --Jayron32 19:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• April 12 analysis: 12 articles. Seven were stubs or near stubs. Of the remaining five, four have major referencing issues or serious orange-level tags to make them ineligible. Only one Balls Mahoney is main-page quality. On to April 11th. --Jayron32 19:50, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• April 11 analysis: 13 deaths noted, but 4 redlinks (so obviously can't be posted to main page). OF the remaining 9, 7 were stubs, while the other two have referencing issues (one has an orange level "additional citations needed" tag, and the other needs one.) On to April 10. --Jayron32 19:53, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• April 10 analysis: 7 deaths, 3 redlinks, 3 stubs, and one quality article (which was actually posted): Howard Marks. --Jayron32 19:54, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• April 9: 9 deaths, 5 stubs, of the remaining four, one has an orange level tag. One has some likely neutrality/BLP issues that isn't tagged, but probably should be, and the other two comprehensive enough but needs some referencing work, Tony Conrad and Will Smith (defensive end) aren't main page ready, but could probably be worked up to it. --Jayron32 20:02, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• April 8: 16 deaths, 6 red links, two redirects, 6 stubs or near stubs, and of the remaining two, one has some serious imbalance/WP:UNDUE issues that would need a LOT of work to fix. The other, which at first glance looks OK, Edward J. Steimel, I would have tagged for some neutrality/BLP type issues for balance, even though it is long enough and fully references, so probably not main page ready either. --Jayron32 20:02, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• In summation, over the last 5 days, assuming no significant additional work were done on the articles in the Deaths in 2016 list, the RD list would have had one additional posting based solely on quality, if we did not have ANY notability requirements over WP:N, which is the minimum needed for an article in the first place. Since there are only currently 2 on the list, such an addition would not have pushed off any current candidates. I'd hardly call that "opening the floodgates". --Jayron32 20:05, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support To quote the OP: "WP already has WP:NOTABILITY requirements, let them be good enough. The goal is to get more quality content on the main page and eliminate discussion about "notability"." I could not have said it better myself. --Jayron32 12:04, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support I'm good with this too. It might encourage people to actually improve articles rather than just drive-by ITN or make their edits purely in the Wikipedia namespace, god knows we have far too many of those "helpful" folk. Only problem I see, based on the analysis performed by Jayron, is that we may have five to ten RD nominations per day to deal with, which may somewhat flood ITNC. Ideas on how that's best handled? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

  Well, someone still has to a) notice and b) care enough to nominate them. That's still our gatekeeper. I'm not sure how this proposal changes that. --Jayron32 20:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

  Well, it's pretty obvious. Right now, most people wouldn't nominate old footballers who won nothing (60 or so, per month, I'd be happy to nom them all) or local politicians or actors from Filipino television shows, but this proposal would suggest that they would all be considered equally, article quality being the only hurdle (but god knows we have a serious lack of editors who understand that...) hence we'd be flooded with nominations. Perhaps not immediately, but certainly in time. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

  TRM is right, there is some risk of a flood. Maybe that's OK? Does it really matter if the footballer was only up for a day? I know it'd be frustrating after putting in a lot of work to see it bumped in 18 hours, but I think for that to happen it would take consecutive days of floods. Probably the clutter in ITN/C is a bigger issue. --166.177.187.122 (talk) 00:59, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

  1) How many of those old footballers have articles whose quality we'd be proud to show off on the main page? 2) I'm not sure why I numbered that question, because I don't think we need a second question. --Jayron32 01:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

  Whether or not the articles are in a suitable condition is not relevant to the point I'm making. If we encourage the concept that the existence of an article passes the notability bar, then there's nothing stopping every single article being nominated, and why not? If they then get more exposure, more improvements will occur. The obvious conclusion being that we will have a serious flood of nominations at ITN, possibly a dozen per day if Deaths in March 2016 is anything to go by. The other corollary is that if, indeed, some of this many nominations per day are brought up to snuff, the throughput at the RD part of ITN will be substantial with so few names being allowed concurrently, listings will be changing there possibly many times per day. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:04, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

  Holy crap! Dozens of articles being improved to with high-quality well written text, and scrupulous high-quality referencing! Goodness, we don't want ANY of that around Wikipedia. We must stop this scourge! --Jayron32 10:32, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

  You missed the point again. I didn't say it was a bad thing, I just asked how it would be managed. And whether it would serve the RD ticker well to be turned over many times a day. But I sense you're now deliberately talking past me, so I'll give up trying. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

  My point is that we shouldn't be inventing problems out of whole cloth, and then using those imagined problems as a reason to oppose an otherwise good idea. Instead, lets first see if there is a problem, and then deal with it. Let's actually, you know, enact the idea, and then when it generates a flood of high quality articles for us to assess, we'll see if the current structure for doing so needs tweaking. But to anticipate the flood of high quality articles, and then use that as a reason to oppose the good idea, seems unwise. --Jayron32 12:05, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

  And my point is, who's opposing this? Just wind it in a little bit and try to be constructive. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:10, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I apologize; glossed over the 'DC' part. 331dot (talk) 09:57, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Question. How would an AfD factor into this? Would that keep a nomination from being posted until it is resolved? I'm wondering if we could ask nominators to cite a notability criterion/criteria(even if just GNG). 331dot (talk) 20:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC) an active afd? What do you do now for like a train wreck or scandal or something that's afd? Honestly i don't know. --166.177.187.122 (talk) 00:59, 14 April 2016 (UTC) How would an article with scrupulous referencing and quality writing be the subject of an active AFD? If the quality is good enough for the main page, it should never even get a whiff of a good-faith AFD nomination, and there's no way any article which would even remotely be considered for AFD should ever pass even the most cursory quality check for the main page. --Jayron32 01:05, 14 April 2016 (UTC) I'm sorry, I was not clear- if we are going to assume that nominations are notable, and someone creates an article to nominate it in anticipation of improving it(as often happens) and it gets nominated for deletion on lack of notability grounds before any improvements, what would happen? 331dot (talk) 08:42, 14 April 2016 (UTC) We're just talking RD's here, or all nominations? 331dot (talk) 08:56, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Is two supports a consensus? Thanks for the feedback, this one looks like it's toast. --166.177.185.61 (talk) 17:21, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't think two is consensus, but I still think this has legs. Worth keeping it going for a bit, perhaps encouraging regular editors like 331dot, Masem, WaltCip, Mjroots, Thryduulf, Muboshgu, Zanhe, Mamyles, BabbaQ, Nergaal, Stephen, David Levy, Smurrayinchester, Fuebaey etc to comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:30, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

The idea here is to post everybody who dies who has an article of decent quality? That'd open this up to a lot of postings. See Deaths in 2016; some days have upwards of 15 entries. Not all have postable articles, but I can imagine the churn. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:40, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Keeping in mind that importance is one factor, quality is another, and for that reason, just saying anyone that show's notable is going to be a headache for finding the quality needed on the front page. When we review by importance, that should hopefully lend itself to an availability of sources that can improve the article for front page posting; a notable but "non-important" person is not going to have that same type of sourcing capability and will lead into problems. --MASEM (t) 17:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

  A bizarre position to adopt. Assessing quality is easy, and that's what admins do. Assessing notability is much more complex and contrived. If an RD is up to scratch on quality, it gets posted. That's really simple and there's no problem with any "headaches" or "availability of sources" or "sourcing capability". All this proposal is saying is that "if the article is quality enough, it gets posted". That by its nature includes good sourcing. What's the problem with that? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - The general idea is good. If a person that has an article (i.e a Wikinotable person) dies, then I see no good reason that they shouldn't be posted at RD, subject to the usual rules. That means no stubs get posted, no articles with serious issues get posted (except in very exceptional circumstances). It may be worth creating a separate discussion page for RD nominations to keep ITN/C clear of clutter. Call it WP:RD/C if you like. Also, it may be worth listing more RDs at a time, say ten or a dozen. As it's only names we are linking, doing so won't stretch the page by more than a few lines. Mjroots (talk) 18:03, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose of the 5M articles on wikipedia I say maybe around 50k are BLP. Assuming that half of them die in the next 50 years, that means 2 BLP become RD every single day. Even if 1 in 2 us good enough quality, I still think 1 RD per day is too much. Nergaal (talk) 18:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I think you're a factor of 10 off - {{BLP}} is transcripted over 750,000 times...making your argument even stronger.--MASEM (t) 20:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Just a quick question, why is two high quality and updated articles per day at RD "too much"? DYK gets through 16 mediocre articles per day. Complaining about a high throughput of quality of quality articles seems bizarre. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:37, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
    • We actually probably review (not necessarily post) an average of 1-2 RDs a day presently, though this is only a wild gut feeling guess; we probably could easily handle 3-4 assuming only 50% are accepted for quality and/or importance for posting. However, a big difference on DYK vs ITN is that DYK only takes effectively two people to promote after the nomination (the hook reviewer and an admin check), while ITN requires a larger consensus. We'd have to adjust how we handle RDs if we really want to push them out at the same rate as DYK, bringing it down to a similar two-man check for inclusion. --MASEM (t) 22:03, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
      • No, I think creating a problem (i.e. too many nominations to review) is a nonsense starting point. It's a good thing to have nominations, and certainly a great thing if people realise that items will be posted as long as they are up to scratch. The only reason we "review" an average of 1-2 is because that's how many are nominated. It's easy to review such things, we could easily handle a significant increase. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:39, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
• Nolo contendere - We may as well try it, find out what the end result is. If it fails then we can get rid of it. If it's a success then we can keep it.--WaltCip (talk) 19:45, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
• Nolo as well. I think I'd need to see this in practice to decide if I think it's a good idea, so I have no problem with trying it. I would only suggest that nominations still need to be shown to be in the news. 331dot (talk) 21:28, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
• comment too bad this didn't get more attention. The 331dot is right, should we do this, items still need to be shown to be getting news coverage. Also, if you time box it as an experiment, remember the school year is about to end and WP always gets an uptick in contribs during the summer. --166.173.250.246 (talk) 21:50, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

  I agree, it would have been a good experiment. I still think we should do it, perhaps for a month or two. And there's not any real opposition to it other than misguided statistical analysis which actually has no bearing on the "quality" aspects of RD. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:08, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support an experiment, per TRM's suggestion. If a death has been reported in the press, and they have an exemplary fully-referenced article, and someone nominates them, then they get posted. There are a couple of recent rejections that would have been posted but throughput and visibility are not bad things. Stephen 01:04, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose See Deaths in 2016. Every day, over a dozen people with articles die, and about half of those already have at least a C-class article. To post every one is not practical, and to exclude someone would be biased under this policy. More stringent criteria are required than simply posting every death. Mamyles (talk) 15:16, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

  You need to read Jayron's analysis above. It's very clear that we would not be posting every death, as most articles would not be considered of suitable quality (In summation, over the last 5 days, assuming no significant additional work were done on the articles in the Deaths in 2016 list, the RD list would have had one additional posting based solely on quality ...). C-class is not the bright line. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Suitable quality is when the article has sufficient length, all statements cited, and no orange tags. From my lookthrough, about six recent death articles per day meet that, without even being nominated. Perhaps Jayron's five day sample size was of a particularly low quality batch. Mamyles (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. It was a typical batch. I'd be interested to see your detailed analysis so we can determine the differences. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

[Enacted] Trial run

So what about a trial then? We post every RD nomination that has an article which meets the quality criteria for one month following the closure of a discussion here which concludes in a positive consensus to do so? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:39, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support no harm in doing this at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:39, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
• Support a trial as I indicated in the above discussion. 331dot (talk) 21:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• Comment What would be the goals/metrics to observe from this trial number? Gain an idea of numbers? Gain an idea of how much work at ITN/C it takes? How many of these RDs that get nominated are improved in the required timeframe? There's a lot of questions I would want to make sure we know what we're looking to get out of this (Beyond fighting over "importance" for RD deaths) brought up above that we should identify as a goal of this trial run. --MASEM (t) 21:16, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

  I would suggest all of the above. Sadly it's not so easy to ask our readers what they think of a more swiftly updated RD section, but assuming we got no complaints, it would indicate that we haven't put our foot in it, and the bonus being we'll have a few more up-to-scratch RD articles, so everyone wins. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:21, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support - can't do any harm. Mjroots (talk) 11:46, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

• Comment if no-one else objects, we should enact this within the next 24 to 48 hours. We need to add a notice to state the running duration of the test, plus ensure that regulars who aren't aware of this become aware of this. We can do that by adding a temporary note at the RD criteria page, and linking those who object per lack of notability to this discussion. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:23, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
• Enacted As an uninvolved admin, I hereby wave my magic wand, and declare that this experiment has consensus for a 1 month trial run. Between 9 May 2016 to 9 June 2016, inclusive, any article about someone who has recently died where (a) the death has been reported in the press (i.e. is "in the news"), and (b) the article meets ITN's current quality standards, will be posted to the RD section. The results of the experiment will be discussed here during this experiment (no need to wait until the end, a running discussion is useful), and at the end of the month the discussion will be re-evaluated to see if there is consensus to continue this new approach past 9 June. I'll attempt to put the requisite notice(s) in the appropriate place(s), but you know I'm going to miss something, so if you see something missing, please fix it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:52, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Temporary note added to Wikipedia:In the news#Recent deaths section. Not sure if a separate note on ITN/C is needed, I'm inclined not to. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:13, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Quick comment: Can we clarify this as "Any existing article"? While the second point about quality will prevent stubs of non-notable people from being put to ITN, the wording might lead some to game the system and create articles on people based only the fact they have died and their deaths reported in the news, which is against the notability standards for biographical articles. Mind you, if someone that we probably should have had an article on dies and an editor spends the time to create sufficiently long starting point inspired by the obits but showing notability before that point, that's great and we should consider it. But I worry the given wording is ripe for gaming. --MASEM (t) 20:38, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand how that could possibly be a problem. If someone whips up a new article that meets ITN quality requirements, how is that bad? I don't see that as "gaming" anything. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:51, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree, it has nothing to do with the past (or lack of) an article, this is to do with article quality. If we become flooded with ITN nominations about previously unknown people, then that will form part of the outcome of the trial. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:59, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Okay, no problem. Let's see how it plays out, and we can adjust on the fly if this is abused (if at all). --MASEM (t) 23:00, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Discussion of effects of trial

There is currently a trial at in the news, affecting the criteria for recent deaths (RD). This has been in place since 9th May and runs until 9th June. During this period, RD nominations made to Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates no longer take into account significance and are judged solely on article quality. Any comments or suggestions are welcome. Fuebaey (talk) 15:18, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Comments about good, bad, or interesting things that come up during the trial can be made here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:09, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose trial I, for one, think it went rather wrong procedurally. A full discussion on permanent change of RD criteria or an RfC should have been made instead. This has already led to a flood of nominations, messing the things up and disrupting the normal pace of discussion, since almost any person listed in Deaths in 2016 now becomes eligible. In the long run, it may lower the bar to yellow press deaths, push other news down the page and bring a headache. As such, I'd reserve the right to oppose any trial nomination. Brandmeister^talk 08:41, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

  What's been "messed up"? Point of information, anyone listed in Deaths in 2016 is eligible assuming they have died since the oldest listed RD and have a quality enough article. Not sure what "other news" it's pushing, nor why it may "bring a headache". You may oppose any trial nomination but your opposition will be overlooked during the trial. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:40, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

  Deaths in a fooian year consistently enjoy a high traffic anyway and are often included in Wikipedia:Top 25 Report, so duplicating many of them on the main page is rather redundant. On the main page, more frequent trial RDs may also push each other out on a daily basis, not giving enough time for the majority of readers to read them (unlike regular RDs). I'd abstain from voting on such nominations meanwhile. Brandmeister^talk 11:38, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

  Who reads the Top 25 besides a couple of hundred editors per day? We're here for the readers, remember? And your second reservation is perhaps valid but as of this time yesterday we had zero RDs on the main page, we now have three. Nothing has been lost. It's very easy to point to all the potential problems, but unless they actually happen, it's pure IDONTLIKEIT crystal-balling. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:40, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

  Top 25 is an indication that Deaths in... are well-served to many readers anyway, likely because Recent deaths is a perennial bolded wikilink on the main page. So perhaps there was a good reason not to include every notable death when the RD criteria were established. Brandmeister^talk 12:01, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

  As I said, it's very easy to point to all the potential problems, but unless they actually happen, it's pure IDONTLIKEIT crystal-balling. It's also very easy to speculate as to the motives of the origins of the RD section, but as we have seen all too often, one man's super notable is another man's tabloid trash. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:04, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. This hasn't been a good week for soccer players(3 nominations). 331dot (talk) 09:37, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose this idea. It is equivalent to posting any blurb on ITN as long as the event has happened and has an article. That is done by news sites not an encyclopedia. Only significantly notable news and deaths must be posted if they have quality articles. 45.121.119.33 (talk) 13:12, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  Incorrect. The item cannot be posted if it does not have a sufficiently high quality article, not just that it has an article. Please re-read the idea of the trial before making erroneous claims. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:57, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  Okay, I should have said, "It is equivalent to posting any blurb on ITN as long as the event has happened and has an article of sufficient quality." The proposal will lead to this - ITN will feature a lot those obscure sportspeople who have played a handful of matches without any significant achievement or major contribution. That is because, it is easier to create and expand articles about such players as there's only so much to write about, compared to bringing an article about a successful player, with a longer career, to sufficient quality. RD will essentially become a ticker of obituaries of unheard people from different fields. I liked the RD section the way it was before, because it gave me an opportunity to learn about someone regarded important to their field. Now I'll be reading about some random person who used to get 4-5 pageviews a day (example: John Young (baseball)). 45.125.184.231 (talk) 16:04, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  No, it isn't the "equivalent", it is exactly that. This trial is intended to demonstrate that if someone is notable enough for an article on Wikipedia, they are notable enough for inclusion at RD. It's 100% purely objective, as long as the quality is there. As for your example, Young has made it to 13,000 hits in the past two days. Isn't that something to be proud of? We're directing our readers to a diverse and interesting set of articles. If we get a complaint from a reader that we are doing the wrong thing by posting these, I'll believe it, otherwise, your complaint is nothing more than IDONTLIKEIT. There is not one shred of evidence that points to this being damaging to Wikipedia, quite the opposite. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:08, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  Speaking as the primary author on Young's article, I'm sort of proud of that result, getting that many page views. It got far fewer than when I got it to DYK in 2013. How is this a bad thing? I was a little against the trial before, but not enough to actively oppose it. Might've been that old instinct of fearing change. So far it seems to be working out okay as a few decent articles have made it up there that wouldn't have otherwise, while others that are nominated aren't of sufficient quality to be posted. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:31, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  It's early days (i.e. two days in) but I'd like to think that this is precisely the return on investment we're aiming to achieve. I'm glad the article has been so successful at ITN, and I'm glad our readers are being tempted into looking at articles they may otherwise have overlooked. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:42, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose this idea. I don't generally comment on RDs. Regardless, this sets a dangerous precedent. Some people may be happy featuring minor pieces of news on ITN as long as the article is high quality, but I am not. Significance should matter, and this proposes to ignore it. The Lord Lucan nomination some time ago is an example of how this is not a good idea. Yes, it's for a blurb not a RD, but the essence is the same. Banedon (talk) 13:53, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  This isn't really a place to "oppose" the idea of the trial, it's more a place to discuss what we're finding out. So far, so good, we've got four or five RDs posted over the last couple of days (about a third or so of those nominated), some good work done on some more minor interest biographies, and a far more diverse set of individuals being nominated. What's not to like? As for "ignoring significance", quite the opposite, this proposes a purely objective approach to significance, i.e. if an individual is notable enough for Wikipedia, they are notable enough for RD. It's very simple and avoids perennial bitch fights over American college basketball coaches etc etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:04, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm seeing the many articles being improved and posted as well, and I'm wondering if there should be a separate page or subpage for RD nominations, so that they don't overwhelm regular ITN nominations. 331dot (talk) 20:26, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  Are they overwhelming? Really? We've had a few more nominations than we have recently experienced. That's it. I think we're coping just fine. We're at day 2/3 so far, nothing is broken, we have a nice turnover rate at RD, some better articles as a result, yet all I'm reading (not from you 331dot) is "wah, I don't like this, I don't have any real reason why, but meh, I don't like it!!!!". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  I'm very satisfied with what has gone on, not only from articles getting improved but for them getting more exposure and hopefully people are learning something about the people being posted. I should not have used the word 'overwhelm' but I have wondered if it would help from an organizational point of view. Just a thought; nothing I am formally proposing. 331dot (talk) 21:07, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

• Several names have been posted and then pushed out by newer deaths. I see three names whose deaths occurred within four days. Honestly, this feels a little rushed, though readers might wanna check older deaths by clicking "Recent deaths". Also, since importance is not required, this all comes down to quality. However, the Tony Cozier biography is not posted on the Main Page due to... "quality" issues, despite looking well written and well sources. Is "quality" some sort of secret code of "notability" or something? George Ho (talk) 21:41, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

  Nope. It's secret code for "quality" At the time it was nominated, the article was substandard. It may or may not have changed enough for people to change their votes. --Jayron32 01:26, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

  Also, the "support" and "oppose" votes become quality-based. What if someone closes the discussion based on just quality? George Ho (talk) 02:38, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

  That's the idea. Quality becomes the only thing that matters in RD nominations, so someone can close a discussion based on just quality. Banedon (talk) 02:56, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

• I tried nominating a late horse, but it got closed down per previous failed nominations. Why can't RDs still extend to animals even after "importance" is temporarily halted? George Ho (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

  That has nothing to do with this trial. If you want to seek a consensus to include animals at RD, start another, separate discussion. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:09, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

• Like George Ho I am getting the feeling that some deaths are being pushed off the listing very quickly. I think the best way to resolve this would be to remove the four slot maximum in favour of a name staying there for five days after posting or seven days after their death, whichever is earlier. Thryduulf (talk) 08:01, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

  The general consensus was to keep RD listings to a single line on "most browsers", this suggestion could easily result in ten, twelve or more listings simultaneously, which won't be acceptable. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:27, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

  I think it would be worth discussing whether this consensus still holds as RD is moving a lot quicker now than before. It may do, but I'd rather not dismiss all suggestions based on it without checking first. Thryduulf (talk) 09:21, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

• I had no idea that any sort of trial was in process until half an hour ago, but I've gone back and taken a look. It does explain why we've had tons of RD nominations recently. That has led to what feels like a slightly higher turnover on the template, but a lot of the nominations have got nowhere due to poor article quality, and many of them would not have passed the old significance standard. I don't think the odd extra less-important person is really helping ITN's mission, and quality over quantity is better as long as we have some turnover, say 2-3 RDs per week. I think we should go back to the previous RD criteria. Modest Genius ^talk 14:22, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

You're not alone in this. I, too, have issues with some lesser significant people, including a centenarian (not easy to memorize and spell at the start), being posted to the Main Page, though I marked it as ready. I did nominate several to test the consensus out, but the result was just quality-based in terms of content. In the light of overdue opposition, shall we shorten the trial to just three weeks or two? --George Ho (talk) 19:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

• So a number of other centurians were posted. Nothing new there. What other "insignificant" people have been posted? --107.77.233.9 (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

• Random sportspeople, like John Warr (whom I nominated, but thank my nemesis for working hard on the article to get it posted) and John Young (baseball), and random political figures, like Margot Honecker (whom majority opposed solely for her "insignificance" before the trial). --George Ho (talk) 20:47, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

• They're not "random", they're notable per Wikipedia guidelines. Please try to use more precise language. You seem to have no idea what you're talking about here. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

• I don't mean random... in a general sense. They don't seem to meet the criterion to be "important" or "significant" in their own fields. --George Ho (talk) 21:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

• Do you actually understand the premise of this trial? Or are you being deliberately difficult? The Rambling Man (talk) 07:51, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

• The trial is just one month. After that, we'd revert back to what RD was before the trial. Of course, the trial made RD looser and more like obituaries that we've seen in newspapers. I can't say I like it or don't like it. Nevertheless, the consensus has reduced to just quality and... copyright, perhaps? Also, editors are given impression that they would nominate many as possible, especially during the trial. However, being threatened for "disruption" just because of so many nominations and so little work on articles would discourage editors from participating in ITN and/or even Wikipedia. It would also give administrators a lot more power to abuse and misuse by hurting editors than helping them, like criticizing? As for the purpose of the trial, probably it's to test our reactions and to see the effects of looser RD. George Ho (talk) 09:07, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

• Again, I think you misunderstand, particularly with regard to the abuse of fair use images. Those should never be allowed to featured in any article, leave alone those which are featured on the main page. As for "hurting editors", I have no idea what you're talking about, your multiple nominations of inadequately updated articles, including an animal was treated as it should be, mildly disruptive. The animal issue is separate, so deal with that elsewhere. Editors are not being given any impression of anything, the trial is very straightforward, for one month RDs that meet a minimum quality threshold as assessed by community/admin will be posted. Everything else is nothing to do with this trial and should be discussed elsewhere to reduce the disruption here which isn't helping us assess the trial itself. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:10, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

• If we're going to get rid of significance on that, then it's best to just get rid of deaths on ITN altogether. The high turnover combined with some of them having rather questionable notability for an article is troublesome at best. Wizardman 14:36, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
  • why? And less notable according to whom? --107.77.233.9 (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
• notice how there hasn't been a single argument about "notability" since the trial started and no quality articles have failed to go up because of an arbitrary "importance" benchmark? The system works! --107.77.233.9 (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

  Agreed, and notice how many tens of thousands of pageviews these individuals are getting, and notice how their articles are being improved. All those complaining are simply saying "I don't like it" without any kind of objectivism. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

  That's largely because these people objecting are more concerned with being the gatekeepers of culture, and not with improvement of Wikipedia articles. "I don't think these people are important enough..." is all they are saying, with the greatest emphasis on "I don't think..." In the mean time, it is hard to argue with any experiment or trial at Wikipedia that results in higher quality articles and more views of those articles as a "failure", unless you simply don't understand what the purpose of Wikipedia is... --Jayron32 01:08, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  I agree. At this point it seems fairly convincing to me. An article judged to be of sufficient quality can go up, otherwise it doesn't, and Wikipedia is better for the improved articles. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:26, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  Agree too. These self-appointed guardians would prefer a completely blank RD section than allow "random" postings of high quality biographies of the recently deceased. How they think that improves Wikipedia is beyond my small, sleep-deprived noggin. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:52, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  High-quality articles is the inherent Wikipedia goal in its own right, without the requirement of pushing them to RD. If someone wishes to propel high-quality articles, he/she nominates them to WP:GA or WP:FA. The thing is that to the average reader, it's unobvious that only revamped articles now appear on RD, he/she might have legitimate reasons to wonder why, for instance, Tony Cozier got an RD while Darwyn Cooke did not. Even ITN regulars like Modest Genius learned about the trial only recently. Such practice will just highlight natural editorial bias - articles deemed interesting will be improved and the rest will not. The pre-trial RD criteria mitigated that to the minimum, making the RD section more fair and natural. Regarding the pageviews, they always tend to spike at the time of person's death, regardless of whether the article is on the main page or not. Brandmeister^talk 12:35, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  Did you nominate Darwyn Cooke? Did you actually do anything? And no, high quality isn't confined to GA (heaven help us) or FA. Perhaps you'd like to rewrite the ITN criteria, particularly the one that relates to "quality content"? As for Such practice will just highlight natural editorial bias - articles deemed interesting will be improved and the rest will not. this is the funniest post so far in this debate. What highlights editorial bias more, one where anyone with a quality article gets posted, or one where we endlessly debate the inherent super-notability of people that some Westerners have never heard of? Yet again, this is IDONTLIKEIT dressed up as something attempting to be vaguely objective but failing horrendously. Try again. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:37, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  Just like many editors, I am not the one man army despite editing across multiple venues and topics. "Anyone with a quality article gets posted" is a theory, but in practice, since the trial was enacted on 9 May, the majority of RD candidates has been either from the US or UK. Right now, three out of four main page RDs are US people. This trend may or may not persist in the future, but the effect I mentioned above is currently there. Brandmeister^talk 22:36, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  If it's a problem you care about and you didn't do anything to fix it, you have no right to blame anyone else that the problem still exists. --Jayron32 00:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  Actually I've had my share in fixing it by creating dozens of multinational biographies. I don't regard it as a bad thing per se, this is natural, but that's why we have Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. I can wait until the end of the trial, so let's see... Brandmeister^talk 10:48, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• Do we now have a system (subject to trial) where regular news stories are vetted according to importance and newsworthiness (or whatever the best descriptions are) as well as quality but deaths are only subject to quality? If so, doesn't this turn the RD section into a newsticker, which has repeatedly been said to be against the purpose of ITN? And if we are only concerned about high quality articles, why continue with an importance/newsworthiness hurdle for regular news stories? Bencherlite^Talk 13:02, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  Actually, that makes it the exact OPPOSITE of a news ticker. If it were a news ticker, we would run every major death and/or story and wouldn't check for quality. If, however, we ignore our own subjective and personal opinions over what the world should find important, and instead focus on posting quality content, then we're not assessing the newsworthiness (which is a newsticker's job) but instead assessing quality only (which is Wikipedia's front page content job). --Jayron32 14:10, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  So, in other words, yes we will be running the main news and the RD sections by different standards. If John Smith wins a book prize and the consensus is that the prize is not of sufficient importance to post, then it won't be posted no matter how good the articles about John Smith or the book prize are; but if John Smith dies the next day, his article will be posted as long as it's good enough. We maintain an importance filter for every news story apart from the ITN equivalent of the obituaries page. I don't see the convincing reasons behind this divergence of approach. Bencherlite^Talk 14:54, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  Point of note, ITN has four stated purposes, of which showcasing quality articles is but one of them. Banedon (talk) 14:56, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  Point of note: Not one of those purposes says "Directing readers towards articles that voters at ITN/C declare to be important enough for the main page". Every single purpose is about showcasing content, and not about showcasing "important" stories. --Jayron32 15:28, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  Au contraire, only one of the four purposes uses the word "showcase" or "quality". The other three can scarcely be interpreted as "showcasing content". Banedon (talk) 00:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  Oh, really. Let's quote all four, since it doesn't look like you're actually reading them. "To help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news." (bold mine). "To showcase quality Wikipedia content on current events." (bold mine). "To point readers to subjects they might not have been looking for but nonetheless may interest them." (bold mine) "To emphasize Wikipedia as a dynamic resource." (bold mine) You'll notice all four emphasize Wikipedia content, or synonyms for content that Wikipedia provides (subjects, resource). You'll also notice that exactly ZERO of them indicate that the role of ITN is to tell readers what is important or worthwhile in the news. --Jayron32 01:03, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  Read all four again. Exactly one of them uses the word "quality". The other three mention "content", but "content" do not have to be of high quality. Stubs are still part of Wikipedia content. You further said "every single purpose is about showcasing content". Read the dictionary on what "showcase" means, then come back here and explain how "To emphasize Wikipedia as a dynamic resource" involves "showcasing". Banedon (talk) 01:07, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  If I thought you were interested in anything except blind arguing, I'd note that Wikipedia can hardly be a resource if it doesn't have content. But you're really not here to make Wikipedia better. You're just here because you want to get in arguments and be "right". Fine, you can be right. I'll no longer have anything to do with you, however, so long as you aren't interested in making Wikipedia a more useful resource, and instead just want to pick fights. You win. I will no longer attempt to disagree with you because nothing you say is worthwhile towards improving anything. You're just a picker of fights, and for that I will now declare you the instant winner of every argument you have with me, so for the future you can just stop having them, because you can no longer lose them. --Jayron32 01:37, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  Bravo. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• The argument "If someone is notable enough for an article on Wikipedia, they are notable enough for RD" is convincing to a certain degree, but I disagree with the claim that it is directing readers to "interesting" articles. I'm sure that John Young (baseball) got such a high number of pageviews because many people, like me, clicked on the link expecting it to be John Young (astronaut). 45.121.116.37 (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  But why can't someone say "If a news story is notable enough to have its own article on Wikipedia, or to have updated material in a relevant article, then it's notable enough for ITN"? Bencherlite^Talk 14:57, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  If this trial becomes policy, I'm confident someone will inevitably say that. Banedon (talk) 15:03, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  It's actually rather easy to see the difference. With an RD, we've got the entirity of the person's life to review for importance and notability per WP:GNG. While it may be a newly created article to reflect an importance person that we've not had an article for in the past, we should readily have sources from before the death to determine the notability. On the other hand, a breaking news event may be difficult to determine if it will meet notability guidelines (keeping in mind a burst of news is not the same as enduring notability), so just because a story is widely covered and someone made an article about it doesn't mean that story is notability. Thus we can't apply the same metric to regular stories as we do with RDs. --MASEM (t) 15:31, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  Plenty of blurbs link to non-breaking news articles right now. Also, if breaking news items may not meet notability guidelines, why don't we see more proposal for deletion tags in nominated breaking news items? Banedon (talk) 00:39, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  It simply doesn't read across that simply. An RD will relate to just one individual. One name only will appear on the ITN section. A news story will have the inevitable discussions over blurbs, alt blurbs, suitable targets etc. Also, news stories (e.g. stuff featured in the WP:Top 25 Report) is usually heavily tabloid biased, e.g. Captain America films (and the associated Marvel Universe stuff), Game of Thrones series, etc, so some form of subjective filtering would be required. Finally, we know that RDs meeting the quality threshold seem to top out at around 1 to 2 per day, news stories on the other hand could be dozens per day. It would completely change the way ITN works, while this trial seems to be adequately demonstrating that nothing has been broken at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:06, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  This is about a subsection of ITN called RD. No slippery slope here. If someone wants to discuss the other nominations, that's a separate thread. --107.77.233.9 (talk) 17:46, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

  There is no slippery slope. But someone will still argue, if we can do this for RDs, why shouldn't we do it for blurbs? Banedon (talk) 00:39, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  If and when that happens I would encourage that individual to start a new discussion here. This discussion is about RD, no sense in worrying about future hypotheticals. --166.137.99.63 (talk) 03:37, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  And the sky may fall in. It's already been explained why we can't do it for blurbs. Please read more carefully. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:56, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

One week into trial

So, just a quick objective update, we're almost one week into the trial and nothing has broken. The following is true during week commencing 9 May:

• 13 RD nominations made
• 8 RD nominations posted (including one from 6 May)
• 4 RD nominations closed (one being about a horse)
• 2 RD nominations remain open

So, we're averaging 1.1 new RD listing per day.

A quick and dirty look at previous weeks: In the week prior to this (w/c 30 April):

• 3 RD nominations made
• 0 RD nominations posted (excluding the one from 6 May which was posted under trial conditions)

So that averaged 0 RD listings per day.

In the week prior to that (w/c 23 April):

• 10 RD nominations made
• 5 RD nominations posted

So that averaged 0.7 RD listings per day.

In the week prior to that (w/c 16 April):

• 10 RD nominations made
• 4 RD nominations posted

So that averaged 0.6 RD listings per day.

The Rambling Man (talk) 11:18, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Just a query, can I ask what metric (i.e. which week does a nomination fall under for the date of nom/death and the date of post/close) you're using to calculate those figures? A quick glance at the archives shows more than 16 nominations since the start of the month. Fuebaey (talk) 12:49, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

The date under which it was listed. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:11, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Seems that week one was a success. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I would agree. Hardly a flood of nominations, hardly a rush of postings, but actually quite a nice, measured turnover. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:58, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Only if you define 'success' as 'more RDs posted'. I don't think that's true and over one a day is more than is desirable. You're also ignoring the significance of those posted. Modest Genius ^talk 12:58, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

A featured article is posted only for 24 hours. An RD entry, at one per day, would be posted for 4 days. Are you saying that keeping an RD on the main page for longer than a featured article is necessary or desirable? --Jayron32 13:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't see FAs as a relevant comparison. Instead, we should compare the time RDs are up with the time ITN blurbs are. This is making RDs rotate much faster than ITN blurbs. Modest Genius ^talk 14:21, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually that's completely untrue. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:32, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

"ignoring the significance"? What are you talking about? That's precisely what the trial is demonstrating, with tens of thousands of page views of those who have been posted who would not be posted if subjective "significance" played its traditional systemic bias role. More RDs posted also means more RDs with higher quality articles, thus improving Wikipedia. Of course, some people may not see an improvement in the average quality of Wikipedia articles as a reason to consider this a success, instead clinging on to the "good old days". The Rambling Man (talk) 13:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I mean the importance of those listed. Like it or not, ITN is selective. We don't just post any blurb with a decent article, and that's very much a good thing. The same should apply to RD. I don't see a frequent stream of sometimes trivial articles as an improvement over a moderate stream of important ones. Quality over quantity, as long as the frequency is sufficient to keep things fresh. Yes there is an argument about bias, but this doesn't seem to be the way to solve it (and is still biased by the willingness of editors to write articles). Modest Genius ^talk 14:21, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

We don't just post any blurb with a decent article because we have featured articles about people like Jenna Jameson and news stories relating to her latest television appearance should not be posted on an encyclopedia. RD is entirely different, everyone who has a biography is notable and as such their death can/should be featured as long as the quality of the article is there. We've seen the old variation of RD failing for several reasons, e.g. posting more American television actors and college basketball coaches than European figures of literature or entertainment, we've seen lengthy periods where RD is empty, how helpful? Now we have a nice steady trickle of good quality articles actively encouraging improvements to articles and visits to our pages. These individuals "of lesser significance" are getting 10s of thousands of page views. How is improving article quality and increasing pageviews to perhaps more esoteric articles a bad thing? What is actually "wrong" with this other than just vague hand-waving dismissal of "this doesn't seem to be the way to solve" issues? I also refute the idea that if we didn't improve "trivial articles" then editors would suddenly migrate to the ones you consider to be "important" and improve those instead. People edit things they're interested in and increasing the scope of RD is really proving that to be a good thing for Wikipedia and the readers. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:31, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Not exactly the way you think. Even Doris Roberts wouldn't have gotten posted under just "quality" criterion; the article still has some unreferenced sentences. Even under this trial, more American actors and basketball coaches would still be posted more than European literary and entertainment figures. Probably editors seem too American to care about biographies of Europeans? George Ho (talk) 17:56, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, what does Roberts have to do with the trial? Because articles which are poorly referenced sometimes get mistakenly posted, doesn't make it right. And you missed all the salient points I made but I'm not surprised. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

This trial is for RD, so let's stay focused that. why is it a problem for the RD section to turn around faster than the blurbs? --107.77.232.117 (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

If that was true... which it isn't. Again, it's another unfounded pseudo-problem. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

• Just to note, the turnover rate is hardly excessive. I just removed a May 12th RD today. 8 days in RD seems hardly excessive, and I can't see the evidence that we're promoting RD articles too fast and too many if they stay on the main page over a week. --Jayron32 22:35, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

  Indeed, as I said to Modest Genius the first time round, the assertion that the RD churn is so much higher than the ITN blurbs is simply false. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:15, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Two weeks into trial

So, just a quick objective update, we're two weeks into the trial and still nothing has broken. The following is true during week commencing 16 May:

• 10 RD nominations made
• 3 RD nominations posted
• 0 RD nominations closed (one being about a horse)
• 7 RD nominations remain open

So, we're averaging 0.4 new RD listing per day.

Compare that to the actual ITN blurbs, we have had 7 new stories posted in that time. So any claims that the RD churn is far exceeding the ITN churn are simply not true (and never have been). The Rambling Man (talk) 07:58, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

• 0 quality articles not posted because of objections about "notability/importance"
• 0 angry discussions about "notability/importance" or how a similar person was/was not posted.

We are getting all of the predicted benefit and none of the predicted doom. --107.77.233.25 (talk) 16:44, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, the primary benefit being the lack of subjectivity over who passes the "RD notability bar". Something which the trial was designed to challenge. Looks like it's doing the job. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

• Still oppose - I've seen no convincing arguments to the contrary. Banedon (talk) 00:54, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose why? A reasoned position backed by evidence and rationality is easier to understand than a blanket "oppose" and is more likely to sway people to your position. --107.77.232.25 (talk) 01:53, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
    • Same reasons as discussed above. I believe significance matters, and objections about notability/importance are valid. I also don't think that "0 quality articles not posted because of objections about notability/importance" is much of a benefit, if it is a benefit at all. We basically have different interpretations about what the purpose of ITN is. By the way do consider registering an account: it's hard for me to shake the feeling that I am talking to someone who realized that I am ignoring him / her and is therefore editing while logged out so as to get my attention regardless. Not alleging bad faith, but it makes me uncomfortable. Banedon (talk) 02:53, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
      • Why does your assessment of significance get to be the one that matters though? --Jayron32 03:46, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
        • And why does your assessment of article quality get to be the one that matters? Or your assessment of significance for that matter, lest the RD in question end up in AfD. Please read WP:Consensus. Banedon (talk) 05:31, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
          • No one person's assessment of article quality is the one that matters as posting or not posting is based on the consensus of those offering an opinion. Likewise when significance was a criterion, whether a person was significant enough for RD was also judged based on consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 09:15, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
          • Should an article listed on RD end up at AfD and be deleted, I'll happily eat my hat and your hat. We have a sufficient number of responsible Wikipedians lurking around ITN to sniff that kind of thing out. You really are delving deep to find problems here where in reality, not one single one exists with the current approach. Your "still oppose" amounts to "I still don't like it" and nothing more. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:57, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
  • So to restate: you oppose because you don't believe posting articles for "insignificant" RD people to the main page helps? why not? how does it hurt? --166.177.184.183 (talk) 10:06, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
    • It hurts by taking "screen time" from the people who are significant. It also hurts because I dislike the idea that articles on the main page are censored by article quality, i.e. bolded links are bolded because the Wikipedia community thinks the article is of good quality and wants (read: tries to manipulate) me to read it. When significance matters, this feeling of manipulation is lessened. When only article quality matters, it is strengthened. I prefer a main page which features things that I might reasonably be believed to be interested in, not one in which the underlying idea is "this article is good, please read it". Banedon (talk) 11:59, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
      • "Screen time" has not been taken by anything. Page views dispute your view of things, there is interest in these RDs, regardless of your personal opinion. You "don't like it" and that's it. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:01, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
      • So there are a few challenges with this. 1) "screen time" isn't listed as an ITN purpose, and other main page features (FA, FP, FL, DYK) turn around daily. 2) WP already has a significance criteria, it's wp:notability which is the only threshold for other main page features (FA, FP, FL, DYK) so this is just aligning RD (not even all of ITN) with the existing policy. 3) quality is routinely evaluated by all the MP features, and also by FA/GA, FL, and the wikiprojects. It's routine, was already a requirement for ITN, and is not exactly censorship. 4) two weeks into the trial we're not seeing a high turnover rate. Lets consider though if all these facts were not the case, what exactly is wrong with the RD section turning over faster (it isn't)? --166.137.97.37 (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
        • There was a period a few days into the trial when we posted several in quick succession. This has not happened since, suggesting it was a coincidence of several people with good enough articles dying in quick succession. This could have happened under the old system as well, albeit less likely, and it could happen again. If this is perceived to be a problem (which there are are differing views about) then there are other ways to change things than returning to the old system (allowing more RD slots and/or a guaranteed minimum appearance time are the obvious possibilities). Personally I was sceptical of the trial when I found out about it, but I have now been convinced that it is better than the old system. Thryduulf (talk) 19:34, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
          • I suspect the surge in nominations was because people subconsciously felt "hey something new let's give it a try", which is also why there was a nomination of a horse. Banedon (talk) 08:41, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
        • Someone who is better at writing concise notes than I am should I think place a note on the candidates page noting the existence of the trial and linking to the details. It might (or might not) reduce the number of times we have to repeat ourselves.... Thryduulf (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
        • 1) Yes. 2) Existing RD policy is on WP:ITN, not WP:notability, and existing policies can be changed by consensus. 3) ITN tends to have higher standards, see typical comments on nominations over article quality, plus the fact that at certain points in the past certain users have argued for blurbs in part because the target article is a featured article. Also compare Battle of Avarayr, currently bolded on OTD, which features a curiously short half-a-sentence description of the battle. 4) There's nothing organically wrong with RDs turning over faster (or slower, for that matter). What makes you think there is? Banedon (talk) 08:41, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
          • I'm not sure ITN has "higher standards", or special"notability" rules. WP:ITN simply says it must be in the news and have consensus to post. So let's recap: You believe ITN has a higher notability threshold (it doesn't), and that it should so that "significant" items get more screen time (not a goal of ITN), where screen time decreases is turnaround speeds up (it's not) but you agree it's not a problem, so long as it's "organic" (I think no one at ITN is killing people), because you want a MP which "features things that I might reasonably be interested in" (not a stated goal of ITN or WP). I think you've got a lot of work ahead to realize your dream. --107.77.232.235 (talk) 12:10, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
            • I think you are twisting my words and making unjustified extrapolations from what I did say, not to mention putting words in my mouth. You seem to have for example assumed that a decrease in screen time for significant RDs (which I did say was bad) somehow equates to "an increase in turnaround time is bad" (even though I explicitly said that was not bad). The reason is simply because if lots of significant people die in short order, there would be quicker turnaround, but all RDs would still be of significant people, and that is not a bad thing from my perspective. Since my words may be dangerously misunderstood or misrepresented and snide remarks pushed my way, I am no longer interested in discussing this with you. Sorry. Banedon (talk) 01:19, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
              • I asked above "what exactly is wrong with the RD section turning over faster" and you replied "there is nothing organically wrong with RDs turning over faster" (these are actual quotes not made up ones). It seems obvious that more posts (faster turnaround) == less screen time. Anyway I'm sorry to the larger community for this wall of text and since Banedon has indicated an end to participation I would appreciate if someone could hat the whole thing. I just wanted to see if there was any merit to the objection. --107.77.232.235 (talk) 01:41, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Banedon, you prefer the RD listing to be empty? The Rambling Man (talk) 09:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

• Strong oppose I have multiple reasons to oppose this. First, the introduction of RD was meant to decrease the amount of death blurbs and to reserve it only for extraordinary cases. By the time, the RD criteria have significantly regressed to the point that we post deaths of mediocre people in their fields. Second, the more we loosen the RD criteria, the more meaningless becomes the existence of the "Death in YEAR" articles, which are among the most viewed articles on Wikipedia. In this regard, if we let this trial become a rule, the only difference between the RD section and the "Death in YEAR" article would be the article's quality. Third, loading the RD section with links to articles documenting recent deaths would make the ITN poorly arranged. On one hand, there are events with some significance for which a consensus wasn't reached; on the other hand, there are recent deaths about people who are there just because their articles are updated or of some quality. Informing our readers about "an irrelevant person" on the price of not posting some significant news stories is a terrible way to deal with. Finally, I'd like to answer your question addressed to Banedon. We don't have specific guidelines how many days after the death an RD item should be removed from the listing as we normally don't remove blurbs. That said, we can simply leave it with older RDs until new one gets listed. But even if we have to leave it empty, it's a better solution than further regressing the criteria.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  The trial has been highly successful with a number of more niche items posted, all of which have received tens of thousands of page views, which goes to demonstrate that we are serving our readers well with this trial. Mostly, the opposition to this trial has been a refusal to change, an "IDONLTLIKEIT" vote, and to suggest that an predominantly empty RD is better than having some high quality niche articles represented is patently absurd. We are here for our readers, not for ourselves. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:04, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  It's quite logic that something will receive tens of thousands of page views when we post link to it on the most accessed and visible page on the whole project, i.e. the main page. You can insert a box with links to all FAs on the main page if you want to increase the number of page views to quality articles. But shall we really use it as a norm for serving our readers? We should also give a damn what people see on the main page and not how many page views the links put there will generate. I firmly support my stance that the ITN listing, and the RD as part of it, should retain relatively high and stringent criteria for posting. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  Your position isn't supported in logic. You are content for someone to have an article on Wikipedia but you are not content to report their death if their article is of a sufficiently high quality. The RD items posted during this trial have been as a result of people making more of an effort to improve articles than they ordinarily would have done. We have received not one single complaint whatsoever from any reader, just a few disgruntled ITN regulars. And that tells me all I need to know. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:44, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  You're right. I'm content for someone to have an article on Wikipedia but not to report their death if their article is of a sufficiently high quality. That's because the main page is not a medium for that purpose. The "Deaths in YEAR" article, which is already linked on the main page, is enough.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  Not at all, because that page contains red links, stubs and articles of poor quality, BLP violations, articles about animals etc. We only feature high quality articles about the recently deceased during this trial. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:59, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) @Kiril Simeonovski: You appear to have some significant misconceptions. The number of RDs posted is completely independent of the number of blurbs posted, no change has been made (or to my knowledge even proposed) to the criteria for posting a blurb, including a blurb about a persons death. RD entries are removed 7 days after death or when there are four newer deaths, whichever happens first. RD may contain anywhere from 0-4 entries at any one time. RD lists only deaths that have occurred in the past 7 days, where the article about individual concerned is in the news, was nominated and is of sufficient quality; death in year articles list the death of every person with an article in the relevant year - they continue to serve the same different purposes they did before the trial began. Thryduulf ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:12, 29 May 2016 (UTC)]) 11:41, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  I know exactly the differences between ITN, RD and the "Deaths in YEAR" article. It's unlikely that the RD listing will fully equalise the "Deaths in YEAR" article but its purpose substantially converges to the other over time. Yet, my opinion is a bit elitist that the main page is the face of Wikipedia and it should only list content of extremely high quality and relevance. That said, the news items posted should be of both extraordinary quality and relevance no matter how they can be useful in improving the traffic statistics.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:48, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  Yes, and it's opinions like that which drive people away from using Wikipedia. It's not an elitist organisation, it's designed (as is all of ITN, including RD) to offer articles that people may be looking for. The pageviews prove that. Your opinion is harmful. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:59, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  Fair enough. I respect your opinion and don't really intend to change it. You've surely wanted to improve something by proposing the trial and that merits respect. I just want to emphasise that in my opinion the ITN criteria we had five years ago were much better than they're now.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:12, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

• Having seen the results of this trial, I have to put forth a mightily strong support for continuing this as a permanent fixture of ITN. Thanks to this, we have improved the referencing and prose of multiple articles nominated for RD. This, I think, is totally within the spirit of Wikipedia. The encyclopedia is not more or less improved by having an item stay on the RD ticker for an indefinite amount of time out of "deference", so much as it is benefited from having a mounting plethora of articles meeting standards of quality that we would use for posting on the front page.--WaltCip (talk) 17:36, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

  Question: Why does RD criteria matter when it comes to improving the referencing and prose of multiple articles? For example I updated Women's World Chess Championship 2016 with game scores and a summary of each game, even though I also wound up opposing the nomination, and even though ITN gave me no credit for it (e.g. Jayron32 said "The article looks like someone started to add prose synopses of each match in the championship...", emphasis mine). If the only relation RD criteria has to improving articles is to bribe editors with "hey your work may be featured on the main page" to improve articles, I would call that against the spirit of Wikipedia, not within it. Banedon (talk) 01:20, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

  A bribe involves an exchange of tangible goods or services. As far as I can tell, Wikipedia articles are not owned by anyone. But more to the point, if it's not the spirit of Wikipedia, please explain the existence of barnstars and featured articles.--WaltCip (talk) 03:02, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

  If I write a featured article, it's because I'm interested in it and / or want to see the article or Wikipedia improved. If someone awards me a barnstar for that, great. If nobody does, that's OK too. On the other hand if someone writes a featured article because he or she wants to be awarded barnstars, I'd call that against the spirit of Wikipedia. Banedon (talk) 05:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Interlude

Just past the halfway mark in the trial and I have a few general observations, hopefully we can start to generate more discussion to determine whether to extend the trial, make it a permanent change to the criteria or abandon it altogether.

• We had an initial surge of RD nominations. It resulted in just over one RD being added per day.
• The following week it had reduced to pre-trial levels.
• The overall turnover rate at RD did not exceed the ITN blurb turnover rate.
• A number of articles which ordinarily would haven't been nominated have been posted. Those articles have benefited from an improvement in quality in order to get them featured, some of them are of niche interest.
• A number of articles posted at RD have experienced pageviews in excess of 10k. It is impossible to speculate what they would have had if they had not been featured in the RD section.
• RD discussions have been very straightforward and generally civil (unless discussing this trial, ironically).
• Supporters seem, in general, content that the trial has thus far improved articles that would ordinarily have been overlooked/ignored as the community knew they would never be posted to the main page.
• Opposers seem, in general, to dislike the dilution of the "significance" of those posted (which seems key, and part of the subjectivity that has disappeared resulting the "ery straightforward and generally civil" discussions noted above).
• RD has not been blank, but has rarely been full.

Observations, opinions, discussions etc would be welcome. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

• I haven't specifically followed every posting but I believe (please confirm/reject) that I've seen a wider variety of nationalities represented than before, which would be a good thing for everyone. As of now I think that at a minimum that the trial should be extended, if not made permanent(after a discussion of course). 331dot (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
• The trial is a failure. People who were not particularly notable have been posted, which is bad. No evidence has been presented that the trial method is an improvement over the old method. A while back I proposed that pageviews of a person prior to their death could be a useful metric of reader interest and should be taken into consideration when debating recent death nominations, and I was shot down. This trial metric is essentially editor interest, and consequently more prone to bias. Furthermore, the trial method is an attempt to silence debate. Even ITN/R items are allowed debate and on occasion have not been posted. Abductive (reasoning) 05:13, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

  Actually, that's incorrect, the trial has achieved precisely what it set out to do, hence the trial is a complete success. You don't like it, I get it. But I'll indulge you. Why is posting more RDs when we would have had zero a failure? Why is improving articles to a main page quality which otherwise would have languished as stubs or poor shadows of articles a failure? Why is combatting systemic bias a failure? As for silencing debate, that's nonsense. It is simply an acknowledgement that if someone is notable enough for an article, they are notable enough to be featured at RD. It takes away the puerile subjectivity that is often applied, it reduces wastage dramatically. And reader's interest has been significant in several of the RDs that would not have been posted. After all, it's the reader we care about here, not us editors, isn't it? The Rambling Man (talk) 05:39, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

  @Abductive: Indeed; it's not a bad thing for readers to read about these people that have been posted. Information is good. It's also not bad for these articles to get improved; that's a good thing. I believe bias has been helped, not hurt, by this trial. 331dot (talk) 10:12, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

  An ITN/R article has never, ever been not posted due to debate. The only times that ITN/R articles are not posted are when they lack the quality and prose to be posted on the front page. It is an established criterion that all ITN/R postings have to meet, and for that matter, that all RD postings have to meet as well. Also, if we should hesitate from posting articles of recent deaths due to systemic bias in our articles, then Wikipedia has utterly failed in its purpos and needs to be shut down. For the time being, ITN is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing - showcasing timely articles.--WaltCip (talk) 14:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

  A total lack of curation is not a service to our readers. For that there is Deaths in 20xx. Abductive (reasoning) 05:06, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

  Well that's absurd. Of course there is curation. And Deaths in 20xx, as noted, features red links, stubs, sub-stubs, dead animals and has no quality control. Items featured on RD have to meet minimum standards. So please, stop trying to make things up to suit your position. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:03, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

  "...hesitate from posting articles of recent deaths due to systemic bias in our articles, then Wikipedia has utterly failed in its purpose and should be shut down"? That's an insane statement. And inane. Abductive (reasoning) 05:08, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

  It's neither insane nor inane just because you cannot grasp the nuance of that statement, but just for your benefit, I will spell it out for you. Articles, particularly of persons, on Wikipedia have to undergo the usual rigor of verifiability and notability before they can remain on Wikipedia. Those that do not meet those standards obviously are deleted. This was pointed out prior to the trial, in which the issue of an article being notable enough for posting on RD was solved by merely adhering to that standard. We solve the issue of systemic bias by posting everything that meets that standard, not just a select few articles judged by an arbitrary number of individuals and the posting admin on duty. If your concern is that the articles we are posting display systemic bias and thus we should not post them, then the problem lies not with our RD process, but with Wikipedia itself. Systemic bias on Wikipedia by definition is reflective of its authorial and editorial demographics and their interests. There are projects set up to address these issues in article space, and we leave it to them to deal with the matter. If we cannot trust that they are addressing systemic bias across Wikipedia, then Wikipedia as a collaborative environment have failed.--WaltCip (talk) 17:26, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Not a good improvement, unfortunately. I see more businesspeople and sports athletes and actors than I saw before the trial. However, if the RDs during trial was the same as the ones in pre-trial, the whole trial would be pointless unless it's all about administrator discretion. George Ho (talk) 05:08, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say. What's pointless about listing a few more RDs of more niche individuals? What's pointless about improving articles to main page standard which wouldn't have ordinarily been improved? Judging quality has always been ultimately about admin discretion, what' your point? The Rambling Man (talk) 05:15, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

We can improve articles, but that's mainly to help other readers. Doing this for ITN... That's one thing, but there should be other reasons to feature a person's name on the Main Page. We post events in blurb-y style because they should be newsworthy and reflect impact, though other blurbs of less impactful events reflect the overemphasis done by the media. We post merely names in case people die; of course, before the trial, we post only significant people in their fields. The trial lets random (or, you call it, "niche") people be named... unless the quality of the article sucks. Hmm... people's deaths... we don't know how much they affect our lives unless the deaths are blurbed. We just merely name people whenever they die. George Ho (talk) 05:57, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with this trial. But thanks anyway. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:05, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Notions of bias

• I don't think that deaths of relatively obscure people suffer from bias. Given that this is the English Wikipedia, people who are from non-English speaking countries are going to garner less interest in life and in death. Even if you guys succeed in ramming through this awful change, in a few months editors will stop improving the articles and the "bias" will be back. Abductive (reasoning) 05:15, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

  As you know, bias does not just have an impact on nationality, but on career, etc. We have featured niche actors and sportspeople from the English-speaking world that would not have been ordinarily featured. No-one is "ramming" anything through, this is a "trial" remember? Please try harder to stop making things up. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:05, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

  Suppressing articles for which WP has a bias does not solve the problem of bias, it simply masks it while denying focus for articles in which our readers might actually be interested. --166.137.99.213 (talk) 22:25, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Pageviews

• I note that nobody has addressed the pageviews idea. Abductive (reasoning) 05:15, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

  Provide us with a suggested implementation and we can consider it once again. Perhaps it could be assessed in another trial? The Rambling Man (talk) 06:08, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Why is this bad

I sympathize with the oppose votes, this change feels like "random" articles could be promoted to the main page. wp: notability is the first guard against this, but the second is quality. Could some dead mayor of Saskatoon get up on RD? Sure. For that to happen enough wp:rs would have to exist, then a quality non-stub article written, then it get nominated. Lots of hurdles. If all that happened, and the article went up, and few thousand people learned something about Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, even Canada, is that bad? I had to walk away from ITN for years to be able to look back and see how silly wp:ITN/DC is. If you're opposed to this change, ask yourself "is it really so bad if we post a few more deaths"? if so, what is the harm? How do you measure it? --166.137.99.211 (talk) 01:08, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Close to ending the trial

Either today or tomorrow is the last day of running the trial without "importance" criterion. Frankly, there weren't arguments about how importance a person was before his or her death... unless I missed some. The arguments did not prevent the names from being posted. Kimbo Slice under "importance" criterion would have not been commemorated in the main page. Same goes for Donny Everett, Bryce Dejean-Jones, and Burt Kwouk. Unsure about Carla Lane, Hedy Epstein, etc. The trial was poorly publicized, if not advertised. Some got confused by the temporary changes made. Ah well, the links to articles are posted because of quality solely, and there is nothing to reverse the decision. By the way, what happen to the nominations posted before the end of the trial? Will temporary trial rules apply? George Ho (talk) 03:43, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

I've been keeping a subjective list of people posted to RD since the start of the trial. The full table is at User:Thryduulf/2016 RD trial but the summary is below. It relies on the assumption that articles not posted due during the trial (i.e. due to quality issues) would also not have been posted had the trial not been in effect.

Totals

Yes	Maybe	No	TOTAL
10	5	13	28

"Yes" means people who would (in my opinion) have been posted to RD if the trial wasn't happening, "No" means those who would not have been and "Maybe" means I think the discussion could have gone either way. Note this is not necessarily how I would have voted in each case, but my prediction of the likely outcome of the discussion. It is not intended to be an objective measure.

In combination with the lack of arguments noted above, I personally regard the trial as a success. Thryduulf (talk) 14:18, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the analysis Thryduulf. It won't be a surprise to anyone to discover that I also consider the trial to have been successful. The handful of complaints we had seemed to focus on a subjective "devaluation" of the RD section of ITN. Benefits, subjectively again, seem to be a wider variety of individuals featured, an increase in the number of main page-quality articles, no endless argument over the comparative notability of a college basketball coach versus a sitcom actor, more timely posting (which also benefitted the "Yes" category above) and not one single complaint at all from any of our readers. Thanks to all who participated. I hope we can maintain this approach, but of course there are those who don't like it who will have different opinions. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:24, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

I've done a little bit of analyses for nationality and occupation at User:Thryduulf/2016 RD trial but I have run out of time to formulate conclusions. Please feel free to add your analyses and conclusions here or there. Thryduulf (talk) 22:42, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for analyzing, and thanks for running this trial. My more impressionistic observation as a frequent reader (though rare participant) of ITN/C is that, now, the discussions were more focused and less unpleasant, articles got improved swiftly, maybe it was more worth the bother! (A comparative analysis of improvements made to RD candidate articles before and during the trial might be interesting as well). In my view, too, the trial worked.

For non-RD discussions, it might be worth thinking about separating, typographically, discussions on the article's quality from those on the item's newsworthiness. Such a visual distinction might allow for more focus as well, and a clearer display of agreement on newsworthiness might turn out to be more motivating for improving quality. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:20, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

If the RD trial worked, shall we do the same on the blurbs instead? That might be worth a try, right? George Ho (talk) 01:16, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

that's a separate discussion for a separate thread. --166.137.99.33 (talk) 01:57, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, I don't believe there to be any kind of read-across to blurbs, which are stories usually relating to just one (sometimes minor) aspect of an article. If George Ho would like to suggest a trial of that nature, he should do so (as noted above) in an entirely separate thread from this very specific implementation of a trial. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:58, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

To summarize from the chart (nice job, Thryduulf), from the "No" category, seven Americans, two British, one Cameroonian, one Lebanese, one Norwegian, one German. Rate of Americans of the "No" category is more than half. From the "Yes", two Americans, two British, one Afghani, one S. Korean, one German, one Bajan, one Russian/Swiss, one Chinese. Rate of Americans of the "Yes" is 20%; British, 20%; others, 60%. Rate of Americans out of total posted is 39.29%. The result of the trial is an increased rate of Americans. I hope it's not a case of systematic bias, is it? --George Ho (talk) 02:22, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

We fight bias by improving more articles about Cambodians, Norwegians, Indonesians, etc, not by suppressing articles about Americans or Britons. All the articles posted satisfied wp:n, were quality articles, and in the news. Fighting systemic bias is not a criteria of ITN or ITN/DC. --166.137.99.112 (talk) 02:46, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

All right, all right. Enough talk about nationality. Let's discuss occupations then. From the "No", seven sportspeople, including four baseball players, is the rate of more than half of what would have not been under "importance". I see one super-centenarian; other occupations vary, one each. From the "Yes", I see various occupations. The rate of sportspeople out of 28 total would be 25%. I don't know whether the trial was the result of increased rate of sportspeople, but numbers don't tell us anything. Not one stub article has been posted; this would apply to a sports bio. Back to occupation, five out of seven sportspeople are Americans, but systematic bias isn't one of ITN's criteria. Nevertheless, I hope this doesn't leave me concerned, right? George Ho (talk) 03:11, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

I have no idea if you have been "left concerned", that's of no relevance to the trial. Over the course of just one month, this kind of nationality/occupation analysis is mildly interesting but nothing more. A little like the large number of celebrity deaths so far this year, a snapshot of deaths can vary wildly for any given month. The point of the trial was that articles which were nominated that passed the quality bar were posted. The majority of our editors will be English speakers, i.e. that will make the largest portion of them American. Hence we'll have more articles about Americans. It's hardly rocket science or news, is it? What this trial did show was that while those items are still posted, other, more niche items are posted that would never have previously made it, mainly because of the systemic bias against them. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:02, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Time for an RfC to make this official? I think the trial was a success. We got all the benefit and no harm. TRM's interlude section above is spot on, and I've not seen any explanation of why the outcomes of the trial are undesirable. --166.137.99.33 (talk) 02:00, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes to an RfC, I agree with the rest of what you say as well - I understand some people don't like it, but I don't understand why the reasons they cite for doing so are bad things. Thryduulf (talk) 11:35, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

• I also support moving to an RfC. Are we going to keep this going until the result of an RfC, or stop? I don't yet see a reason to stop. 331dot (talk) 11:44, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
• Have followed this with some interest (I don't have the energy or inclination to edit on anything like the scale I used to, but am still a regular reader and think I might start getting involved in low-commitment editing such as ITN or TAFI). There are a few interlinked issues here. The most obvious question – though admittedly the biggest can of worms – is that if a high quality article is not worthy of being showcased to our readers on one of its most significant ever dates, when adding it to the main page would be displacing either older news or blank space, then why cover the topic? Secondly, if in practise ITN contributors were dead against an obituary section, then surely a consensus against RD's very existence would have emerged by now?

  So at a first glance, the RfC we're considering seems to be on what RD should be. Should it exist at all? Should it be a showcase on high quality articles whose subjects have died, regardless of notability? Or, subject to sufficient quality, should it be a halfway house for decent articles on people more notable than one-time footballers but not quite as notable as Nelson Mandela?

  In principle my position is somewhere between the second and third options. But in practise, the more notable a subject is, the more likely it is that the necessary work to meet ITN quality standards will actually be carried out. Conversely the less notable a subject is, the more picky reviewers are likely to be about quality issues. The only way to remove all drama from ITNC would be to ban all humans from editing it, but on balance I think adopting this trial on a permanent basis would at least channel that drama into a constructive purpose - improving articles rather than arguing about their importance. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 04:58, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Draft RfC

As comments here seem largely in agreement that the trial was a success and has not identified any tweaks required, I propose that we start an RfC to make the trial conditions permanent. It should be fairly simple to word, but I'm creating this section as a draft to allow for comments and copyedits before it goes live.

If there are no objections or changes proposed, I will post this (approximately) as above on Saturday 11 June (UTC). Thryduulf (talk) 22:39, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

• Pinging those commenting on this page recently: @331dot, The Rambling Man, George Ho, 166.137.99.33, Sluzzelin, Abductive, and WaltCip:. Thryduulf (talk) 22:42, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
• You may proceed when ready, Thryduulf.--WaltCip (talk) 02:51, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I strongly object to calling the trial a success. What evidence do you have? Abductive (reasoning) 05:04, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
    • I think this isn't the venue to argue whether the trial was a success. After all, Thryduulf is only trying to finalize the wording for the RfC. You, me, and everyone else who disliked the trial should save our arguments for the actual RfC when it's posted. Banedon (talk) 06:31, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
      • Abductive, you didn't like the trial, you offered nothing constructive as to why you believe it wasn't a success. Honestly, if you don't want to help, please find some other venue to vent your spleen. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:21, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
        • Okay. Point me to the RfC when it is ready. Abductive (reasoning) 23:33, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
• Couple of things. One, there's a missing period at the end of #1 of the new criteria (after 'speedy deletion'). Second and more importantly, existing criteria apparently doesn't mention point 3 of the new criteria (about reliably sourced confirmation of their death), which is weird. I would suggest simply updating the existing criteria with the new point 3, inserting it even into current ITN policy since it's not there. Banedon (talk) 06:31, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I'd rather not make any changes to any other part of ITN policy before this change has been accepted or rejected in order that there is no confusion about what changes are happening and why (there are a couple of principally organisational changes I'm thinking of for other parts of the ITN instructions and criteria as well). Everything posted is explicitly or implicitly currently required to meet BLP (of which this is a subset) but I'm adding it here to make it explicit and simple. Thryduulf (talk) 10:44, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
    • In that case, I'd suggest removing #3 of the new policy from the RfC, since it is not in dispute (i.e. it would apply even if the new policy is not adopted). Banedon (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
      • Hmm, yeah I guess it could cause confusion if this proposal fails. Struck above. Thryduulf (talk) 13:20, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
• Three greens from me, good to go. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:21, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
• Sufficient quality... How sufficient? I know it can't be a stub. Why not change number two from "sufficient quality" to "no longer stub quality"? George Ho (talk) 08:37, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  Or maybe make it number four? George Ho (talk) 08:39, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • There are guideline standards set out elsewhere at WP:ITN about what constitutes sufficient quality for things to be posted, and it's more than just not being a stub and during the trial has been held to include things like sourcing and comprehensiveness. The latter especially cannot be judged other than on a case-by-case basis. Basically an article is of sufficient quality when a consensus of people commenting say it is. Thryduulf (talk) 10:44, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
    • In other words, if the article is long but has quality issues, then it won't pass. Right? George Ho (talk) 16:45, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
      • Which has always been the case, trial or not. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Quite, the community will judge the quality, just as they do with any other part of the WIkipedia that gets featured on the main page. This is no different from that at all. What are you trying to say? The Rambling Man (talk) 12:25, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
    • So meaning of "sufficient" depends on case-by-case, right? There's no need to elaborate "sufficient"; consensus can exemplify it. Right? --George Ho (talk) 16:55, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
      • Yes, of course. Just as it always has and always will. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
• AFD already puts a banner on the article and ITN doesn't post with red banners so I don't know if a separate clause is needed but I also don't think it hurts. rest is fine. --64.134.27.46 (talk) 10:59, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
• Regarding criteria 1, what if the consensus picks to "keep" the article unanimously, and the AfD is still open? George Ho (talk) 17:16, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

  Until the AfD is closed, it's ineligible, simple. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:05, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

• The proposal seems fine to me. Thanks to everyone for their efforts on this. 331dot (talk) 19:25, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
• Agree, let's get the RFC up and running. Mjroots (talk) 20:09, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Should the RfC be on this page, on WT:ITN or somewhere else? Thryduulf (talk) 20:43, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

• Do it here, new section. Post a comment at WT:ITN and WP: RFC. I think this page should be the complete record. --107.77.232.187 (talk) 11:23, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

@107.77.232.187, Mjroots, The Rambling Man, George Ho, 64.134.27.46, Banedon, Abductive, and WaltCip: RfC started below and advertised at WT:ITN, WP:CENT and Talk:Main page. Please post links anywhere else you think is relevant. Thryduulf (talk) 12:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC) @Jayron32:

RFC: Criteria for the recent deaths section of the main page In the news section

Following a month long trial (9 May - 9 June inclusive) that was regarded as successful by most commenters based on objective and subjective measures (read this page for the full background), this RfC seeks to establish whether the criteria for the "Recent deaths" section of the "In the news" section of the main page, listed at Wikipedia:In the news#Recent deaths (WP:ITN/DC), should be changed to match those used during the trial.

Question: Should the proposal detailed below be implemented?

No other changes to the section at Wikipedia:In the news#Recent deaths section are proposed. These changes do not alter the criteria, standards or conventions for blurbs, including blurbs for people who have recently died.

If this proposal is successful it will apply to all nominations made from the UTC day after the RfC is closed (e.g. if this is closed on the 18 June it will apply from 19 June). Thryduulf (talk) 12:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support as proposer and per my comments about the trial. Thryduulf (talk) 12:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support Trial showed no flood of nominations, no complaints from readers, and more quality articles on the MP. The old ITN/DC are outdated. --107.77.232.187 (talk) 12:59, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support - The trial brought lesser-known people who had died to the MP. This can only be a good thing as it gave readers a chance to learn something they might not otherwise have done. By insisting on a standard of quality before posting, we all win. Mjroots (talk) 13:01, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support - simply put, the trial was a successful one. Article quality should take precedence over perceived importance. Spiderone 14:10, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support Trial was a success. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 14:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Three issues. Under proposed criteria the editorial attention and efforts would be dispersed across arbitrarily chosen biographies, whereas current RD criteria help to check whether core and important biographies are up to snuff in the first place. Secondly, the trial showed that such nominations push other noms down the page, making the latter less visible and less likely to get editorial and admin attention. At the same time multiple trial nominations have been nominated without prior improvement (including stubs), probably just to get more editorial eyes for an arbitrarily chosen biography. Lastly, the proposed criteria would look arcane and kinky to the average reader. Nearly all main page content has an accompanying indication as to why it appears on the main page, such as FA, FP, DYK or selected anniversaries. Under proposed criteria, RDs would become an exemption, resembling the random page feature or virtual particles popping in here and there. Brandmeister^talk 14:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

  Your first point, we only saw a handful of RDs nominated who didn't make it. The "editorial attention" really tends to be just by those who nominate the articles in any case, so I don't think that's a valid position. Secondly, that's just a process thing, and someone has already suggested colour-coding nominations to make it easier for those who are too lazy to read the content. As noted below, after the initial surge, the RD noms balanced out to only a small amount above previous levels. Lastly, the arcane really sits with the original RD criteria which resulted in endless debate about minutiae. Nothing kinky about a straight-forward "if it's good enough to post, post it" approach. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - This is fundamentally a dispute between those who want the main page to feature "important" articles, and those for whom article quality takes overarching precedence. I fall in the former camp.

Reasons to oppose:

1. The death of someone like Harper Lee is not on the same level as someone like Doreen Liu. It's irrelevant if the Doreen Liu article is as comprehensively written as the Harper Lee article. Accepting the new RD criteria puts them both on the same level.
2. The arguments for making this change can easily be rephrased to apply to blurbs as well. It's easy enough to say this is only for RD, and there is no slippery slope. But it's only a matter of time before someone comes along and says, why can't the existence of an article like 2016 Northeast India earthquake signify significance? I see no convincing argument for why blurbs should not have this while RDs should, but that would violate ITN's core purposes (of which only one of the four mentions "quality").
3. The new criteria lead to relatively stringent constraints on article quality before something can be posted. I believe article quality takes a (very) backseat when it comes to ITN; certainly before I started reading ITNC I used ITN as a dynamic resource for what is happening in the world. I was not expecting that only the articles that met a fairly stringent constraint on article quality will be posted. If someone like Najib Razak were to die, I would rather it be posted even though the article is tagged for neutrality. This new criteria, if implemented, leads to a requirement on article quality far above what I want it to be.
4. Finally there have been problems due to basing things only on article quality. Some time ago the Lord Lucan article was featured as a blurb, undoubtedly because it is in part a featured article. We had complaints and it was shortly pulled thereafter. If RD has not received complaints (it has, see above), I bet that's primarily because it's less visible compared to blurbs, but that's not a reason to be sloppy with RD.

The arguments for support are unconvincing. Leaving aside various arguments that do not argue for a change like "there has not been a flood of new nominations" or "there has been no complaints from readers" (which isn't even true, if the above opposes are anything to go by) then at its core all the arguments basically boil down to article quality.

1. Some people appear to think that the purpose of the main page is to feature quality content. If that's so, we can do away with DYK, ITN, and OTD, and just feature multiple featured articles. That is not how I prefer the main page to look like, and I'm sure most people feel the same way.
2. Some people appear to think that the new RD criteria gets articles improved. This seems to be based on the idea that some editors can be bribed to update articles by the prospect of the article appearing on the main page, and the new criteria gives them more target articles to work on. I do not think this kind of behavior is something to encourage. Editors should improve articles for the greater good, not because of some reward.
3. Some do not like the arguments about significance and think we should spend time doing something else. In this case they can simply not participate after the initial vote. On the other hand if some people like to argue, that's up to them. For example a certain editor I won't name is almost certainly aware that I am ignoring him, but that has not stopped him from responding to my comments. It's not mine to tell him to stop.
4. Finally some argue that assessing for significance is arbitrary, which it is. But the new criteria simply deflects the arbitrariness to assessment of article quality. I do not see it as an improvement. Comparatively, assessing for significance used to work, and continues to work for blurbs. Why change it?

Banedon (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

• • Quality is, was, and will remain a requirement for any ITN nom. Regardless of what you would prefer, articles with orange banners or CN tags don't go up. Perhaps you don't understand quality. Importance is not a requirement for any MP features outside ITN/DC. TFA has featured a music store in Michigan and dead Australian soldiers. You have still failed to describe what harm is actually done by posting a few more deaths, beyond the conflict with your inaccurate view of the purpose of ITN. I wish you luck. --107.77.232.187 (talk) 17:35, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Nonsense, mostly. As covered above, many times, before this RFC started. It's still IDONTLIKEIT. You claim This is fundamentally a dispute between those who want the main page to feature "important" articles, and those for whom article quality takes overarching precedence. which is simply untrue. It's a method of ensuring that decent quality RD articles are featured on a timely basis without the endless debates over "super-notability" that seems to be currently required at RD, i.e. is a college basketball coach who won nothing more "super notable" than a British sitcom actor? Having said all that, you should be awarded a barnstar for simply exemplifying WP:TLDR. Cheers for that! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:52, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support it's obvious that if an individual is "notable" enough for Wikipedia, then they are "notable" enough to be reported at RD upon their demise, assuming their article has sufficient quality to be posted. The opposition are mad keen on keeping RD niche and elite and, if possible, completely empty, and continual comparisons with the Deaths in 2016 article are tragic; they do more damage to their cause than good whenever they attempt to conjure a reason as to why posting timely, decent articles to RDs that our readers are interested in reading is a bad thing. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support Trial was an unmitigated success. Article quality was improved on a number of pages we wouldn't necessarily care about previously. Our old RD criteria are far too subjective, leading to unproductive arguments often involving systemic bias. The point of the main page is to showcase quality content, and changing the RD criteria permanently helps us do that. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:01, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support as this trial resulted in more improved articles, a wider variety being posted(in terms of fields and nationality) and more learning about things we might not have otherwise, which is what we should all want. 331dot (talk) 19:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

• No, we do not and should not want to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Abductive (reasoning) 20:21, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

• Neutral (though leaning toward oppose while the pre-trial criteria [plural for criterion] continue) - I hate to admit that the trial was a success, but that would not lead to a successful change. The posting of some Canadian (ice) hockey player Gordie Howe's death as a blurb led to mixed reactions, like "pull blurb/move to RD" and "keep blurb". This reinforces the futility of the RD's efforts to prevent a death from being blurbed, i.e. fully detailed in the Main Page, as RD posts just people's names. Same for the proposed criteria here, which I don't think is much of an improvement other than to reduce (or suppress) pesky debates on recently deceased. The change wouldn't prevent pesky debates on death blurbs (and even non-death events). If Christina Grimmie's death is blurbed, how does the change prevent such deaths from being blurbed? --George Ho (talk) 19:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

  I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. The posting of Gordie Howe to a blurb and Grimmie's support is not part of this trial. RD never makes an "effort to prevent a death from being blurbed". That's just stupid. But thanks for your "input". The Rambling Man (talk) 19:51, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

  From what I've read, the RD was created to reduce the blurb-ings of deaths and to loosen the rules on featuring deaths, but it was also to allow numerous names posted on the Main Page. Therefore, nominations would go smoothy. If I'm wrong, why else is Recent Deaths created in the first place? George Ho (talk) 20:12, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

  Please stop wasting my time. Ask someone else. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:25, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. There are problems with this idea which I feel cannot be resolved. As commendable an idea it is to remove selective/systematic bias, this will not truly address that problem.

1. The proposal substitutes editor interest for reader interest. The Main Page exists to serve reader interest.
2. The Recent Deaths link is for readers who are looking for the articles on more obscure recently deceased people.
3. If an article has not attracted enough editor interest prior to the person's death, then hastily attempting to rectify that in time to post will fail more often than not. Editors will make mistakes, creating problems with WP:BLP which still applies to the recently deceased. This will not end up improving articles on balance, if one considers posting erroneous articles to the Main Page to be bad.
4. Over time editor fatigue will set in. Then RD posting will become more capricious, hardly an improvement over the current situation. Contestants in the WP:WIKICUP will provide some backup early in a year, but that will distort the Cup competition. Again, this idea seems geared toward editor satisfaction, not reader needs.
5. Wikipedia's readership expect some curation in an encyclopedia. WP:NOTNEWSPAPER and WP:INDISCRIMINATE apply. This are WP:POLICY and are Policy for good reasons; WP:Systemic bias (a mere Guideline) cannot be allowed to trump Wikipedia Policy. Posting every death is like the obituary pages.
6. It is not Wikipedia's and particularly not the Main Page's job to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Abductive (reasoning) 20:14, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, you've misunderstood most of what the main page of Wikipedia is trying to achieve. The current proposal does indeed do your first point, it serves the reader, not the editor (how kind of you to note that). Your second point, malformed, is invalid, the list of deaths doesn't guarantee any quality (or even an article, or even a human). Your third point is, in fact, pointless. If we get an article to main page quality, then it can be posted. Your claim that it will create BLP issues is pure unfounded speculation and very disappointing from someone who has a clue like you. Your WikiCup point is without foundation. The fifth point, regarding "curation" is utter bullshit. No-one "expects" curation. You have made that up and actually, if people invest in an RD of a niche person, the likelihood is that it'll remain on their watchlist. And they'll "curate" it. You are pretty good at creating artificial problems, but terrible at real ones. Looks like we've covered all your concerns. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

You want to override Policy. "Curation" refers to the content of the Main Page, not the articles. Get it? I regret causing you emotional distress. Abductive (reasoning) 20:26, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

We've got it all covered Abductive. If you want to bitch about things on the main page, take your fight to DYK. At least ITN RD's are of high quality and of interest to our readers. Do you have any evidence that any of the RDs posted under this trial were not of interest to our readers? That we broke Wikipedia by posting high quality articles about niche recently deceased? That the world ended? I doubt it. You just don't like it. Sad but true. And no, you cost me zero credits emotionally, I'm more of a man than you. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 11 June 2016 (UTC)