Page move-protected

Talk:Ariel Sharon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Former good article Ariel Sharon was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
January 5, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
August 17, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted
In the news A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on January 11, 2014.
Current status: Delisted good article

Bar Lev Line[edit]

There is much to be said about Ariel Sharon's storing opinions regarding the Bar Lev Line. Is there a specific reason there is no information about this on this wiki page?TM (talk) 02:37, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I have added a section called Bar Lev Line. TM (talk) 21:48, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Battle for Jerusalem[edit]

The extended quote from Habis Al-Majali's is undue weight for a biography of Sharon. The claim itself is extremely dubious (POW exchanges were done only at the end of the war, yet the article shows Sharon participated in several battles after his supposed capture), and Sharon denied it. If it deserves mention at all - that should suffice. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Extended quote? Its half a sentence... Its also perfectly sourced, your point on POW exchanges is original research. Per WP:TRUTH and WP:OR. Makeandtoss (talk) 00:58, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
It has no [lace in a biography of Sharon. Yes, it is undue weight. Start an RfC if you want it included. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 01:02, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Why is it undue weight? Its a majority view point held by reputable and reliable sources.Makeandtoss (talk) 01:04, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. It is a claim made by a single person, uncorroborated by ANY other source, which flies in the face of what we knwo about POW exchanges. I doubt ANY of it belongs in the article, but if we must, we can mention that Al-Majali claimed it, and Sharon denied it. Anything else is undue for a biography spanning 86 years. If you disagree, start an RfC. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk)
Don't be ridiculous? You don't be ridiculous. The sources deal with the capture as fact, it doesn't deal with it as a claim. " a Jordanian historian revealed...." and "Sharon sought to get in touch with his former captor" from Telegraph.[1] "Habes revealed how he had caught a young Lieutenant Ariel Sharon in the battle" from the Guardian.[2] Here's another source from a report by AFP. [3] Makeandtoss (talk) 01:33, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I agree with WOLAF.
The claim by al-Majali is false. Sharon was not captured during the Latrun battle. It could be mentionned anecdotically, in a section describing how notorious Sharon was even in the Arab world (capturing him would have been prestigeous) but it cannot be given as a fact that would have occured during the '48 war.
Pluto2012 (talk) 12:21, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
@Pluto2012: Wikipedia works with sources, what I am saying has sources, and what you are saying has no sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:25, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi @Makeandtoss:. You are fully right regarding sources. But just for your information, I am the author of this FA : fr:Bataille de Latroun (1948) that was translated to wp:en Battles of Latrun in which it became GA. All the sources are there.
AFP, Telegraph, ... are not WP:RS. On such a topic, WP:RS are Benny Morris, 1948 or Yoav Gelber, Palestine War, or... ie references from historians. Other WP:RS sources would be biographies of Ariel Sharon from reknown journalists. I will check if they don't mention Majali but I am quite sure they don't. Pluto2012 (talk) 12:33, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Lets assume Telegraph, AFP,... are not reliable. I got several Arabic sources from historians. A google search turned up with these [1], [2], [3], [4]. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:41, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't read Arabic. Who are the authors of these books (and as a second step, what do they say) ? Pluto2012 (talk) 12:56, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
(edit) Nor Morris or Gelber mentions this. And as you can see on googlebook nearly nobody does. Pluto2012 (talk) 13:00, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

First source: "أرئيل شارون شارك في معركة القدس ضد الجيش الأردني وقد أسره يومها النقيب حابس المجالي (أصبح برتبة مشير فيما بعد) الذي عالجه ونقله إلى الخطوط الخلفية، ثم إلى المفرق" Translates to "Ariel Sharon participated in the Battle of Jerusalem against the Jordanian army, and was captured by captain Habis Al-Majali, (who later became a general), he treated him and went to Mafraq"Makeandtoss (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you but how is the author ? Is he an historian ? I doubt so given it is a pure lie from Majali.
I had introduced the story the following way when I wrote the article about Latrun's battle: [5]. It is true that Majali made the claim but the claim is false and not supported by historians. Therefore, it can be mentionned in al-Majali article ; it can also be introduced in the article about Latrun battle but the way I did so (ie, in the section 'Jordanian historiography' and in underlining it is a claim). But there is no reason to mention this in Sharon's article. Pluto2012 (talk) 13:13, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
[6], [7]. Here are two more sources discussing it in detail. Plus the first three sources in English, all make references to Baqr Khazer, a historian.Makeandtoss (talk) 13:21, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I could not find who is Abdul Karim Hosni.
These "blogs" are not wp:rs but we should find who is Baqr Khazer.
But anyway, if Baqr Khazer is the only historian in the world who support al-Majali claims it is not wprs either.
Hundred of historians published on Latrun's ballte events: ″exceptionnal claims require exceptionnal sources"...
Pluto2012 (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I am even less convinved that Baqr Khazer is unknown: [8].
I stop here. This information is not reliable as you should be convinced now. Pluto2012 (talk) 13:31, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Misspelled name and hasn't published anything in English but here you go [9]. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:37, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
@Pluto2012: Hosni Abdul Kareem source and his book which mentions the capture. Book "Zionism: the West, Jerusalem and politics." [10]Makeandtoss (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Ariel Sharon. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 21:50, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Subbotnik ancestry[edit]

The statement that Sharon's mother was of Subbotnik ancestry appears to have began showing up on the internet within the last several years. I'm not sure of its origin (possibly even Wikipedia). Is there anything concrete supporting it, beyond "Lists of famous Subbotniks" that casually mention a few names? An in-depth bio of Sharon, for example? His own statement? All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 04:15, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 61 external links on Ariel Sharon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:43, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1329691/Field-Marshal-Habis-al-Majali.html
  2. ^ http://www.theguardian.com/news/2001/apr/27/guardianobituaries
  3. ^ http://ww1.utusan.com.my/utusan/info.asp?y=2001&dt=0217&pub=Utusan_Express&sec=Features&pg=fe_05.htm