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Talk:Ariel Sharon

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Former good article Ariel Sharon was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
January 5, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
August 17, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted
In the news A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on January 11, 2014.
Current status: Delisted good article

Legal findings[edit]

My concern is that the concluding phrase on the legal findings of the NY court that investigated Sharon's libel case misrepresent the information given by the reference cited in this entry (number 35).

Here is the phrase: Although the jury concluded that the Time story included false allegations, they found that Time had not acted with "actual malice" and so was not guilty of libel.[35]

The article is clear that Sharon lost the libel case with unanimity of the jury, failing to prove that Time defamed him with malice. On the other hand, Time failed to provide legally acceptable evidence that supported its arguments against Sharon. This is most of the time the case with investigative journalism, as it can rely on evidences looser than what the courts accept as proof. Also the reference article points out that Time accused the Israeli government of hampering the defense by threatening the potential witnesses and barring access to potentially interesting documents.

The current sentence describing the verdict presents the claim to moral victory of Sharon's attorney before citing jury's unanimous verdict, which can be considered a journalistic trick to create prejudgement in the mind of the reader, and does not seem appropriate for an encyclopedia. A more factual sentence would first mention that the jury cleared Time of having defamed Sharon in an act of malice, and then proceed to further details about the terms of the verdict, including the fact that Time could not bring legally acceptable evidences to support its defamatory act.

I am not a part of the team working on this page, but I ask you to fix this in the way you see appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mszargar (talkcontribs) 01:29, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

People participation.[edit]

People participation in his 80's mistakes. People and this were very big number of population told his 80's mistakes very clearly NO. How is in countries were is democracy people smart to tell no mistakes of politicians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.105.9.6 (talk) 15:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Name some, along with sources. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:53, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2014[edit]

Here's the text I'd like to be changed.

Margalit died in a car accident in May 1962. Their son, Gur, died in October 1967 after a friend accidentally shot him while they were playing with a rifle.[

Please put the sentences together: ...May 1962, and Gur died..."

The previous sentence says who Gur was, so we don't need to explain again who he was. 2001:18E8:2:1020:3190:5D44:EEF4:77CE (talk) 19:07, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Pluto2012 (talk) 20:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Bar Lev Line[edit]

There is much to be said about Ariel Sharon's storing opinions regarding the Bar Lev Line. Is there a specific reason there is no information about this on this wiki page?TM (talk) 02:37, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I have added a section called Bar Lev Line. TM (talk) 21:48, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Cerebral Attak.[edit]

A Cerebral Attak possible be manipulated. At least in addition to the Internet. Internet is today almost tough anywhere. Sernager (talk) 17:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


Battle for Jerusalem[edit]

The extended quote from Habis Al-Majali's is undue weight for a biography of Sharon. The claim itself is extremely dubious (POW exchanges were done only at the end of the war, yet the article shows Sharon participated in several battles after his supposed capture), and Sharon denied it. If it deserves mention at all - that should suffice. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Extended quote? Its half a sentence... Its also perfectly sourced, your point on POW exchanges is original research. Per WP:TRUTH and WP:OR. Makeandtoss (talk) 00:58, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
It has no [lace in a biography of Sharon. Yes, it is undue weight. Start an RfC if you want it included. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 01:02, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Why is it undue weight? Its a majority view point held by reputable and reliable sources.Makeandtoss (talk) 01:04, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. It is a claim made by a single person, uncorroborated by ANY other source, which flies in the face of what we knwo about POW exchanges. I doubt ANY of it belongs in the article, but if we must, we can mention that Al-Majali claimed it, and Sharon denied it. Anything else is undue for a biography spanning 86 years. If you disagree, start an RfC. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk)
Don't be ridiculous? You don't be ridiculous. The sources deal with the capture as fact, it doesn't deal with it as a claim. " a Jordanian historian revealed...." and "Sharon sought to get in touch with his former captor" from Telegraph.[1] "Habes revealed how he had caught a young Lieutenant Ariel Sharon in the battle" from the Guardian.[2] Here's another source from a report by AFP. [3] Makeandtoss (talk) 01:33, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I agree with WOLAF.
The claim by al-Majali is false. Sharon was not captured during the Latrun battle. It could be mentionned anecdotically, in a section describing how notorious Sharon was even in the Arab world (capturing him would have been prestigeous) but it cannot be given as a fact that would have occured during the '48 war.
Pluto2012 (talk) 12:21, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
@Pluto2012: Wikipedia works with sources, what I am saying has sources, and what you are saying has no sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:25, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi @Makeandtoss:. You are fully right regarding sources. But just for your information, I am the author of this FA : fr:Bataille de Latroun (1948) that was translated to wp:en Battles of Latrun in which it became GA. All the sources are there.
AFP, Telegraph, ... are not WP:RS. On such a topic, WP:RS are Benny Morris, 1948 or Yoav Gelber, Palestine War, or... ie references from historians. Other WP:RS sources would be biographies of Ariel Sharon from reknown journalists. I will check if they don't mention Majali but I am quite sure they don't. Pluto2012 (talk) 12:33, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Lets assume Telegraph, AFP,... are not reliable. I got several Arabic sources from historians. A google search turned up with these [1], [2], [3], [4]. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:41, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't read Arabic. Who are the authors of these books (and as a second step, what do they say) ? Pluto2012 (talk) 12:56, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
(edit) Nor Morris or Gelber mentions this. And as you can see on googlebook nearly nobody does. Pluto2012 (talk) 13:00, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

First source: "أرئيل شارون شارك في معركة القدس ضد الجيش الأردني وقد أسره يومها النقيب حابس المجالي (أصبح برتبة مشير فيما بعد) الذي عالجه ونقله إلى الخطوط الخلفية، ثم إلى المفرق" Translates to "Ariel Sharon participated in the Battle of Jerusalem against the Jordanian army, and was captured by captain Habis Al-Majali, (who later became a general), he treated him and went to Mafraq"Makeandtoss (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you but how is the author ? Is he an historian ? I doubt so given it is a pure lie from Majali.
I had introduced the story the following way when I wrote the article about Latrun's battle: [5]. It is true that Majali made the claim but the claim is false and not supported by historians. Therefore, it can be mentionned in al-Majali article ; it can also be introduced in the article about Latrun battle but the way I did so (ie, in the section 'Jordanian historiography' and in underlining it is a claim). But there is no reason to mention this in Sharon's article. Pluto2012 (talk) 13:13, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
[6], [7]. Here are two more sources discussing it in detail. Plus the first three sources in English, all make references to Baqr Khazer, a historian.Makeandtoss (talk) 13:21, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I could not find who is Abdul Karim Hosni.
These "blogs" are not wp:rs but we should find who is Baqr Khazer.
But anyway, if Baqr Khazer is the only historian in the world who support al-Majali claims it is not wprs either.
Hundred of historians published on Latrun's ballte events: ″exceptionnal claims require exceptionnal sources"...
Pluto2012 (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I am even less convinved that Baqr Khazer is unknown: [8].
I stop here. This information is not reliable as you should be convinced now. Pluto2012 (talk) 13:31, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Misspelled name and hasn't published anything in English but here you go [9]. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:37, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
@Pluto2012: Hosni Abdul Kareem source and his book which mentions the capture. Book "Zionism: the West, Jerusalem and politics." [10]Makeandtoss (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2015 (UTC)