Talk:Athol Fugard

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Link to the play Hello and Goodbye[edit]

It links to another, unrelated article, Evita (musical). Can anyone fix it? Ehudzel (talk) 10:57, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Spelling of middle name[edit]

I have changed the spelling of a middle name from 'Lanigan' to 'Lannigan' on the basis of a google search minus Wikipedia. The two ext links conflict, but I take the Literary Encyclopaedia as more definitive. Noisy | Talk 13:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I and others have documented that Lanigan appears to be more authoritatively documented than Lannigan and source citations in notes now document that decision. Many of the online encyclopedia seem to take information from Wikipedia and other less authoritative sources. There is some disagreement among scholarly publications, but the current note citation explains the reasons for the current use of Lanigan. --NYScholar (talk) 03:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

White[edit]

I'm expecting this one word in the first sentence to be controversial, so I'll explain my reasoning. For many writers race is not that important, but for Athol Fugard, it is at the heart of most of his works. So the fact that he is a white man writing about apartheid as opposed to a black one, is, I think, worthy of a word in the first sentence of the article. Feel free to argue otherwise. GRuban 14:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not sure why you found it necessary to qualify him with "white". It seems really weird in the intro paragraph. Also, a South African with the surname "Fugard" doesn't sound like umZulu! Could you perhaps not have mentioned your point about the types of plays he wrote somewhere in the body (later on) instead of an out of place qualifier suggesting that his perceived "race" is somehow an important aspect of his notability? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 15:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Query re: self-published sources moved here[edit]

[I moved this query from my own talk page here, where it pertains. Please comment on the editing of articles on the articles. Thanks. --NYScholar (talk) 20:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)]

Hi, I notice that you have removed the "refs" I added to this page - in particular, the refs to Iain Fisher and Stephen Grey. As a result, the articles now has comments about "citations needed". The tool I used to generate these citations is listed under the Citation - Tools index on Wikipedia so I am puzzled as to why they were removed? Could you please clarify for me as I would like to add them back. Many thanks. --Nzpcmad (talk) 01:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The refs to "Iain Fisher" etc. were not proper citations; self-published sources not by recognized authorities on a subject (cf. non-official fansites) are not considered reliable sources in Wikipedia and violate core editing policies: WP:V#Sources and guidelines for external links (WP:EL). If those self-published sources have referred to reliable secondary third-party published sources, Wikipedia needs to cite such sources directly, not these unreliable sites. "Iain Fisher" is not a specialist in theatre or dramatic literature or literature; his specialty is computer technology. One needs to cite reliable third-party sources that are recognized authorities on Fugard. All such sources are removed as violations of Wikipedia editing policies. The many statements in this article that lack proper sources warrant to template re: this problem. (See the editing summaries which already explain the edits.) --NYScholar (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

If one go to Iain Fisher's user page, one can see that it appears to be a self-advertisement and his recent placement of links to his own site and its message boards throughout Wikipedia violates WP:SPAM, WP:Advert; Wikipedia editors should not link to self-published message boards and self-published sites as source citations: see also WP:CITE and Wikipedia:Reliable sources as well as WP:V and (where pertains as well) WP:BLP#Sources for policies. Fisher is not a recognized third-party published source on these subjects about which he is linking to his site and its message boards. One needs to provide proper full citations to actual third-party reliable sources that are verifiable. --NYScholar (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I added the talkheader template to this talk page; the editing policies are linked in it. --NYScholar (talk) 20:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I posted the following comment in the talk page of Iain Fisher, where Nzpcmad has referred to my editing of this article as well:

Since beginning editing Wikipedia, Iain Fisher has been adding links to his own self-published Website and its message boards throughout Wikipedia articles, violating Wikipedia's core editing policies, such as WP:BLP, WP:V#Sources, and WP:CITE, and guidelines such as WP:EL, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Those links are to fansites. He is not a recognized third-party published authority on the subjects. All statements and information in these articles, including Athol Fugard must have reliable and verifiable third-party (not self-published) sources. If there are primary sources, these sources need to be used in the source citations directly. The "refs" removed are removed due to their violations of Wikipedia's own editing policies and guidelines. The discussion of the article belongs on the talk page of the article, not on my user talk page. Please deal with the templates posted by others as well. The article is not up to Wikipedia quality standards: I did not place the other templates on the article; I place the "citations missing" template due to the lack of verifiable reliable third-party source citations. This is not a fansite; it is an encyclopedia, and the article needs to be encyclopedic, according to Wikipedia's editing policies and guidelines. In Wikipedia articles on living persons, unsourced statements may be removed on sight. The templates indicate the problems. People editing the article need to provide proper sources for the material that they are adding to it. They also need to avoid violating Wikipedia:Plagiarism by providing sources for material being taken from reliable verifiable third-party published Websites as well. --NYScholar (talk) 20:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

--NYScholar (talk) 21:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Sources for bibliography, filmography, other works?[edit]

IMDb.com is not considered a reliable third-party published source in Wikipedia; it is edited by its readers; it can be listed as an external link in the EL section (unlike iainfisher.com), but it cannot be used as a source citation for statements or filmography; one needs to find a reliable third-party published source and provide source citations to it for the material being incorporated in sections of bibliography, filmography, other works, etc. The personal history/biography section is not documented properly at all; it needs source citations throughout that are in keeping with WP:BLP#Sources, WP:CITE, and WP:V#Sources; also see WP:NOR. If an external link item is being used as a source, it needs source citations throughout the body of the article instead of being listed as an external link. But IMDb.com cannot be one of such sources. More reliable sources are needed. They are plentiful, and the editors of this article need to use them instead of the self-published and IMDb.com-type sites. --NYScholar (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism from source(s)?[edit]

Earlier editor(s) seem to have taken material from Craig McLuckie's article on Fugard published in The Literary Encyclopedia (and other sources?); it is a source used by the earlier editor(s) and needs source citations throughout, wherever it was used. See Wikipedia:Plagiarism re: need to avoid plagiarism in Wikipedia. Listing a source in an External links section is not where it belongs; it is a "Reference" and source citations ("Notes") are needed to document its use throughout. I've moved it from the EL sec. to a full citation format in "References". The editor(s) who took information from it to compose this Wikipedia article need to document such work. --NYScholar (talk) 23:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

"Personal Website"/Faculty Profile ("official website")[edit]

I've resolved the situation re: the website by referring to subject's faculty profile and using it as a reference; it lists "Athol Fugard: Statements" at iainfisher.com as Fugard's "Personal Website" [and hyperlinks it]. [I'm using the UCSB Website as the "official website" in the infobox.] I think that indicates the subject's authorization of that part of the site for his own ["Personal Website"]. The message boards, however, contain self-published information by others that is not citable in Wikipedia. I've documented the inclusion of the [UCSB] website [faculty profile] in the infobox [adding it to the EL sec. too].

(cont.) If there are problems with doing so, other editors could possibly remove the iainfisher Website. Right now, it seems properly documented to me; but one will now have to beware of breaching Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and to be careful not to use too much material from the subject's (Fugard's) "personal website"; see Template:One source re: that potential situation; a Wikipedia encyclopedia article should not be lifting material from a subject's authorized website and moving it into Wikipedia; nor should it be violating WP:NOR, by placing opinions published on the website without third-party reliable sources or seeming to include only material authorized by Fugard or written by the webmaster Iain Fisher (a breach of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Relying too much on the "personal website" presents a different set of problems in Wikipedia. See WP:POV as well as WP:BLP#Well-known public figures. One needs thus to avoid the appearance (or actuality) of this article becoming a vanity piece. --NYScholar (talk) 23:48, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Updated in brackets; moved the UCSB faculty profile site to use as "official website" in infobox and moved it to EL sec. as well. --NYScholar (talk) 08:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Updated the heading of this section to reflect those changes. --NYScholar (talk) 00:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment[edit]

[Moved this from my own talk page here, where it is pertinent. --NYScholar (talk) 04:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)]

Just had a look at the rewrite. While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've done (I think the categories added a sense of order and progression), I think you've done a really good job. --Nzpcmad (talk) 07:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. Re: the decision to omit the categories; they are one perspective on the works of the "Personal Website" of the subject and thus not really "neutral point of view"; also, in terms of format, most articles about subjects who are writers list the works by titles in bibliographical format (titles, dates) and do not categorize them according to any single critical point of view. Also, I added the references to the categories and qualifications about overlap etc. in the source citations. The subsequent bibliography already lists works within most of the same categories in titles of collected plays. As I had said in an earlier version that I revised later, the categories are basically those of Fugard's own collections and really do not represent any useful additional and verifiable information. They are simply the categories already accessible in the linked External links and source citations and they are debatable. Categorizing the works from that particular viewpoint is really not "encyclopedic"; listing works and dates is. If one wants critical discussions, one can go to the sources and ELs cited. They are all accessible to any reader. (I'll copy and move this exchange to the article talkpage so that others can read it there.) --NYScholar (talk) 04:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

[I also just moved the source citations up in the Plays section, where they are more noticeable earlier in it. --NYScholar (talk) 05:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)] [(copied from my talk page too.) --NYScholar (talk) 20:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)]

Very last line of the article text: [quote]novel Tsotsi (Afrikaans for hoodlum)[/quote] Ummm no not Afrikaans. At best interracial slang term; but I think the term tsotsi is derived from isiZulu, *certainly* not Afrikaans. Afrikaans (ar at least some Afrikaners) have sort of borrowed it but there is a lot of cross-cultural use of slang terms in South Africa. The Afrikaans equivalent word would probably be "skollie". ChrisB600 (talk) 04:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

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