Talk:Black and tan

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Black and Tans in Ireland

There were two sections in the article that seemed to suggest that black and tans are not drunk in Ireland. This is incorrect. During the summer months stout drinkers often have a black and tan as an alternative to Guinness. Even tough hitorically the Black and Tans would have been considered in a very bad light, it is by no means offensive to order a black and tan in a pub.

I have never ever heard of a black and tan as a drink and I'm a 34-year-old Irishman, not unaccustomed to the inside of a pub, and neither has anyone I have asked.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.8.116 (talk) 00:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also an Irishman in his 30s, resident in Dublin since 1995, pub-goer, beer blogger, and never known or seen anyone drink a Black and Tan, or a half-and-half. I have encountered Smithwick's with a Guinness head, but not since late last century. Vernacula (talk) 14:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bold textBlack and tan seems an interesting drink. That seems hard to make and a show-worthey drink. --Djjackson7 02:38, 19 March 2006 (UTC)If it wasn't alchohac, i would have it. To bad it isn't. I think apple juice and gingerale on top would work. I will try it. Mabye I could make an interesting drink stall. It would be good for you with the allousion of beer. It seems like a good idea.Italic textIf it dosen't work, its to bad.[reply]

Have never seen anyone order one in Ireland as well. The name is still offensive anyway in certain parts of Ireland but apart from that I still don't think anyone in Ireland would order it. Jorgenpfhartogs (talk) 12:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

The etymology is back-to-front; black-and-tan was first a dog, then a cocktail, then the RIC reserve. From the OED, under "black":

14. a. black and tan (of a kind of terrier dog): Having black hair upon the back, and tan (yellowish brown) hair upon the face, flanks, and legs. Also ellipt. as n.

1850 C. M. YONGE Langley School vi. 41 Oscar, the bloodhound, that monster of a black-and-tan dog. 1863 KINGSLEY Water-Bab. vi. 272 Out jumped a little black and tan terrier dog. 1870 D. J. KIRWAN Palace & Hovel (1963) xiii. 118 The dog-fancier may be noticed with..a black and tan under one arm and a spaniel under the other. 1884 Harper's Mag. Aug. 464/1 A jealous little black-and-tan stood by. 1948 C. L. B. HUBBARD Dogs in Britain III. xx. 271 Since 1925 Black-and-Tan Miniature Terriers may exceed the previous weight limit of 7 pounds.

b. black and tan: a drink composed of porter (or stout) and ale. slang.

1889 in BARRÈRE & LELAND Dict. Slang. 1955 G. FREEMAN Liberty Man I. iv. 60 He asked for a pint of black and tan, and had to explain to the waiter what it was. 1958 A. SILLITOE Sat. Night & Sun. Morn. vi. 93 Gin-and-orange? I'll have a black-and-tan.

c. Black and Tans: popular name for an armed force specially recruited to combat the Sinn-Feiners in 1921, so named from the mixture (black and khaki) of constabulary and military uniforms worn by them. Also attrib. Hence black-and-tannery: the principles or activities of the Black and Tans.

1921 Times 28 Jan. 7/5 ‘God Save the King’ and ‘God Bless the Black and Tans’. 1921 LD. BRAYE in Hansard Lords XLIV. 792, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government..whether they will..recall the Black and Tans. 1922 W. B. YEATS Lett. (1954) 680 The Black and Tans flogged young men and then tied them to their lorries by the heels. 1923 Weekly Disp. 4 Mar. 9 ‘How can I,’ concluded Sir John Simon, ‘defend black-and-tannery?’ 1958 Spectator 8 Aug. 183/2 The only way would be a reversion to Black-and-tannery, to forcible coercion and repression.

Delicious

While the mixture may indeed be delicious, that is an opinion, something that doesn't really belong in an encyclopedia. And thus, I removed it.DannyBoy2k 19:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is delicious though. --qp4 00:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is your opinion though!

They are delicious and i am pretty good at pourin em now and i like beers--E tac (talk) 10:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate Irish name

Isn't there an alternate Irish name for this drink, to avoid connotation with British counterrevolutionary troops? brain 03:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Alternative Irish Name: Sometimes it is called a Half and Half, but really, a Half and Half is when the two are poured in together at the same time, which is disgusting, or sometimes, people refer to a Guinness and Harp as a Half and Half. Generally though, the name of the drink preceeds the name of the paramilitary organization, and Black and Tan is a perfectly legit way to ask for the drink. Mike Murray 20:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's the witty thing about a black and tan... it's correctly made with the Guinness (Irish) and Bass (English), so you get a drink that's Irish on top, but deep down inside, it's English, which is how Irish Republicans would refer to the RIC, Irish on top... the uniform, the name, etc., but underneath it all, English.Cory (talk) 09:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Variations

A Snakebite_(beer_cocktail) is not stout and cider, it's lager and cider. I fixed this, as well as fixing the attached snakebite link to point to the page on beer cocktails instead of a page about reptile venom. Coincidentally, said page on beer cocktails also points out that referring to a stout/cider mixture as a snakebite is incorrect. Garyfoster 15:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eesh. This section needs cleaned up badly. To many silly little regional variations, and redundant names (two different kinds of "Black Christmas" for example)Lucashoal (talk) 18:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Black&TanBeer.jpg

Image:Black&TanBeer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious statement

Note: the layering is often mistakenly attributed to the fact that Guinness is partly carbonated with the lighter nitrogen gas but this theory is disproved by the fact that Black and Tans were around long before Guinness started putting nitrogen into stout.

This implies that the Black and Tans served before Guinness started serving nitro-keg Guinness in 1961 were layered. Were they? If this statement were true, it would seem to imply that you could make a Black and Tan with stout dispensed with CO₂ alone, yet this article acknowledges that the 'draught' (aka nitro-keg) product is required. Also it is wrong to say "partly carbonated" with nitrogen. Dforest (talk) 07:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a chemist I can debunk it simply by saying that the solubility of nitrogen in water (and presumably beer) is so low that it wouldn't affect the density to begin with. EagleFalconn (talk) 04:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Shot-flip method

When I was in college, the common way to prepare one of these was to fill a shot glass with the light beer, then while holding the shot in one hand, place the larger glass upside-down over the shot, and then flip them both over, so the shot ends up upside-down inside the larger glass. You then fill the rest of the glass with the dark to finish it. The light beer then slowly seeps out from the shot glass to produce the layered effect. I don't know how common this practice is, but everybody I knew at school used that method. Is it worth a mention? I don't know any official source for this other than personal experience. Lurlock (talk) 21:01, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Irish controversy with the "Black and Tan"

Why should these American companies care what Irish people think about the name of their product? The entry on this point is biased and should be more balanced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.82.121.118 (talk) 00:20, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cut with Lager?

"In Ireland, the name of the drink is believed to be a reference to the mis-matched and dirty uniforms of the freedom fighters of western Ireland of the 19th century. When stout was limited, the soldiers would cut it with lager. It is typically made by floating a half pint of Guinness or Murphy's stout atop a half pint of Harp or other Irish lager in a fluted or straight-sided pint glass."

This is mainly nonsense. The reference was to the black and tan of the RIC volunteers. Lager was VERY rare in Ireland until the latter part of the 20th Century, and probably correspondingly MUCH more expensive than stout. Harp lager did not exist before 1960. Plingsby (talk) 10:20, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's utter crap, but welcome to Wikipedia. It's a miracle that it doesn't say it's a traditional Boston or New York drink and dyed green. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the article, more research can be done within the Guinness Brewery history since Black and Tan is a half and half of Guinness Stout Beer and a pale or lager beer. I will also search the history of the different types of beers in Ireland and also verify an association in half and half Black and Tan drinks since the start of the Guinness business in 1759.R0d0f0t0 (talk) 00:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced section

The 'Variations' section has been tagged as unref'd since July, and the content in that state for considerably longer. I'll allow a short time for references to be provided, but intend removing any and all claims not backed up by reliable sources. Original research is a no-no. RashersTierney (talk) 11:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy section

I integrated the controversy section into the history section because I felt that it was compromising the neutrality of the article and giving undue weight to the situations discussed in it. Happy to discuss my reasoning further if other editors have questions. 60clawsand20paws (talk) 16:53, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Always layered?

When I was studying at a Scottish educational establishment in the 80s, a "black and tan" was just a bottle of stout poured into a pint and topped up with ale and thus mixed rather than layered. GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as requested Mike Cline (talk) 10:55, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Black and Tan → Black and tan – "Black and tan" is not a proper noun in this context and does not need capitals. I'm assuming they're there because of the false belief that the drink's name derives from the Black and Tans; in actual fact, it predates the formation of the RIC Reserves by at least forty years, and simply refers to the contrasting colours of stout and ale. Zacwill (talk) 17:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 19:41, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Food and drink has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 19:41, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: A lot of drink names use similar capitalization, perhaps to give them names like the titles of creative works: Alabama Slammer, Black Velvet (beer cocktail), Blow My Skull, Brass Monkey (cocktail), Cable Car (cocktail), Chatham Artillery Punch, Cobra's Fang, Cuban Sunset, Curacao Punch, Fish House Punch, Hand Grenade (cocktail), Hangman's Blood, Hemingway Special, Irish Car Bomb, Jolly Shandy, Navy Grog, Orange Whip, Q.B. Cooler, Rum Swizzle, Stirling Punch, Sumatra Kula, Test Pilot (cocktail), The Russler, Ti' Punch, Water Lily (cocktail), Whistle Belly Vengeance, Whynatte Bomb, Yellow Bird (cocktail), etc. It's a mixed bag, or rather a mixed drink. See also the capitalization in the List of IBA official cocktails. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The IBA has different capitalization rules from Wikipedia's. Those should be moved too. — AjaxSmack 06:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support – enough sources use lowercase that this doesn't meet the threshold in MOS:CAPS: [1], [2], [3]. Similarly with many of the others. Dicklyon (talk) 02:35, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Did a google books search. There appears to be mixed usage in prose enough that it doesn't meet the threshold to be capped. It appears to be capped in a lot of instances but on closer inspection, they are headings and like where one would expect to see title case. To the others, anything with a descriptor of a drink probably should not be capped - ie "X punch". Cinderella157 (talk) 04:21, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Not a proper name, any more than michelada, or rum and Coke (which contains a proper name, a trademark), or sex on the beach. This is already covered by MOS:GAMECAPS: "Likewise, venue types, sports equipment, game pieces, rules, moves, techniques, jargon, and other terms relating to sports, games, and activities are given in lower case and without special stylization such as italics (with the standard exceptions, e.g. capitalize proper names, italicize non-English words)". Social drinking is such an activity with a set of jargon, that is capitalized sometimes (mostly in specialized publications), and lower-cased more generally, so use lower case here. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:40, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, of course. Tony (talk) 01:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.