Talk:East Asian Gothic typeface

Origin of word

I heard that Japanese name 'Gothic' is rooted to a word 'Alternative Gothic'. The word was used by Benton, I also heard. Kzhr 11:17, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Could the name Hei 黑 also be a phonetic reference to "Helvetica"? Collin237 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.203.187.77 (talk) 00:49, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Hei (黑, Black) is in contrast to Bai (白, White), another way of describing serif faces. For "Gothic", see all the "Grotesque" stuff. --Artoria2e5 contrib 06:07, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Category:Typography

I really don't think that this page (about a typeface) should be in the "typography" category. "Typeface" is already a subcategory of "Typography" and "Shotai", the new category, is a subcategory of "Typeface". So, according to WP:CG, the category "typography" is wrong. Further, this article doesn't deal with typography to any great extent, it simply describes a typeface. --DannyWilde 08:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Contrary to what the article might say, Gothic is not a typeface, but a whole category of typefaces. It is exactly identical in meaning to the modern English term sans serif (similarly not a typeface, but a whole category of typefaces), which is under category "Typography"; italic type (originally referring to cursive type modelled after handwriting, akin to Japanese Kaisho = Chinese Kaishu), which typographically falls under the same category as "sans serif" (and therefore "Japanese Gothic typeface"), is also under category "Typography".

Classing it solely under Shotai, IMHO, is also wrong because the term "Gothic" is not only used in Japanese typography, but also Korean typography. Putting it just in Shotai implies that this is solely Japanese-related, when it is not. (Perhaps the article ought to be renamed.)

However, if current policy says an article should not belong simultaneously to a category and its parent category, I'll not re-add it, though in this case (at least) I think such policy is neither user-friendly nor consistent.—Gniw (Wing) 09:01, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Name of page and language categories

This page should probably be changed to reflect the Chinese and Korean contents. How about "CJK gothic typeface", or is there a better idea? DannyWilde 05:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

• I agree. -75.33.233.27 07:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Fixed width

Someone edited the page to

As with most CJK typefaces for computers, gothic typefaces are also usually fixed width.

I don't believe that Japanese gothic typefaces are usually fixed width. Evidence, please. DannyWilde 05:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I hate it when somebody asks for "evidence" for a statement as incontrovertibly true and demonstrable by observation as "most grass is green." If you are utterly unfamiliar with the topic of the article, you shouldn't be editing it. Sigh. On the other hand, it really isn't all that important because as noted in the original statement, it is a characteristic of the larger category. Thomas Phinney (talk) 12:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, if you only reverted that part I have no problems. (I'll cross that before I can find the references.)

But you reverted all my edits. I find it very incredible that you reverted my edit to read Kochi Gothic is useful to typeset Korean Hangul; this is ridiculous. You also reverted the Japanese name of Kochi Gothic. In any case, Kochi Gothic is not notable for being fixed width, whether I am right or not in claiming that they generally are.—Gniw (Wing) 05:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

"MS PGothic" and "MS UI Gothic"

What is the difference between "MS PGothic" and "MS UI Gothic"? --84.61.62.65 13:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

MS UI Gothic is more narrowly spaced than PGothic, and is used in the Windows user interface.--Ryoske 07:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

C in CJK

Since I cannot find the Graphicat (my original source that is at least 20 years old) in HK any more, I will be quoting instead from the English-Chinese Dictionary of Graphic Communications (ISBN 962-336-020-7):

“Early gothics are better known as Black letters. Contemporary gothics are plain, sans serif type-face [sic] with lines of unvarying thickness. [My emphasis]” (p.138).

This confirms the usage of the word "Gothic" as a synonym of “sans-serif” as being tradional also in Chinese typesetting.–Gniw (Wing) 18:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Merging into sans-serif

Considering Gothic is stated as another way of saying sans-serif, and like the Latin-based sans-serif fonts, use unified stroke width and designed to be readable at small font sizes, it will be a logical arrangement to catergorize it as sans-serif. Besides, the title 'Japanese gothic typeface' really isn't just about Japanese characters and fonts, and the main sans-serif article is short anyway. - Jacob Poon 18:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose merge. -- Petri Krohn 08:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
• Comment While both of their names were derived from Western words for "sans serif", they are not the same thing in Asian languages. Gothic is a family of "sans serif" just like "Times" is a family of Latin serif. Some example of non-gothic sans serif typefaces include "Hupo" (琥珀), "Youyuan" (幼圆). --Voidvector 21:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose, I guess. I'd defer to those with greater typographical knowledge than me, but despite the obvious similarities it seems like there is little overlap in what the sans serif and East Asian gothic typeface articles cover (much of them are about specific fonts), and they link to each other enough that it is easy to navigate between them. It would be nice to close this one out, as the merge tag has been sitting there for over 6 months. Kingdon 13:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Gothic is not "a typeface"

As noted above under category: typography, "Contrary to what the article might say, Gothic is not a typeface, but a whole category of typefaces." I am going through and fixing this. Thomas Phinney (talk) 12:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Note also that the info box is inappropriate, as it is intended for use with a typeface, not a category of typefaces. (Rather goofy to say that Gothic is within the category of sans serif, when instead it is identical or analogous.) However, there is also useful info here, so I'll leave it for now and perhaps somebody else can think of an appropriate modification both here and on the Ming (typeface) page. Thomas Phinney (talk) 12:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. Next time be bold and just do it.Asoer (talk) 12:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

1. Numbered list item

History

When were these invented? When did they become popular? -- Beland (talk) 04:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no Chinese in the picture.

There are three columns in that picture: Korean, Kana, Kanji. The last column includes Chinese characters, but they are not Hanzi, they are Kanji. Japanese standardized forms are used. You can clearly see that the second stroke in 天 is longer than the first one, which is would be absolutely wrong in Chinese. Morever 玄 has five strokes in Chinese, but it's impossible to achieve that in Japanese because the stroke direction is different. Compare the Chinese and Japanese versions on Wiktionary: 天, 玄. Your browser may display the Chinese and Japanese characters with different fonts, but the gothic typeface is compatible with Chinese standardized forms. --2.246.16.88 (talk) 22:03, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Strong case of Dunning-Kruger here. The Chinese characters follow the Kangxi standard. Is that Chinese enough? But even if the Kangxi dictionary never existed, these characters have been written this way before. You're welcome to search around any 書法字典.71.219.50.221 (talk) 21:27, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Strong case of someone who likes to insult people online. You are mixing up calligraphy and rendering of characters on computer. This font goes against all traditions in calligraphy anyway, but that's not the problem here. Of course, these are Chinese characters, but it's rather a digital issue here. It's about if the font displayed here is Chinese. The creator of the photo clearly used only one gothic typeface for all three columns. So you cannot say the third one shows the "original Chinese". Chinese SimHei, Japanese Meiryo and Korean Gulim are all gothic typefaces, but they are different, they each correspond to their national standards. --2.245.161.112 (talk) 15:17, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 27 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No prejudice against a new RM if a better title comes to mind. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

---

East Asian Gothic typeface → Gothic typeface – The only worry may be conflation with the items listed at Gothic script, but I think this is a safe WP:NATURAL decision. Remsense诉 18:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Typography has been notified of this discussion. Remsense诉 18:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject China, WikiProject Korea, and WikiProject Japan have been notified of this discussion. Remsense诉 19:00, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Sorry, although I can see where you are coming from, I'm afraid you need a Plan B. The name "Gothic typeface" is far far too generic to be used for this specific case

Before the term "sans-serif" became standard in English typography, a number of other terms had been used. One of these terms for sans-serif was "grotesque", often used in Europe, and "gothic", which is still used in East Asian typography and sometimes seen in typeface names like News Gothic, Highway Gothic, Franklin Gothic or Trade Gothic.

— Sans-serif

Gothic was a popular typeface style in the middle ages from 1200-1500. The term originated from the Italians who used it to refer to the "barbaric" letterforms of Blackletter.

— fontspace.com/category/gothic

A breed of no-nonsense typefaces, called “Gothics” in the United States, have been serving as heavy hitters in financial services, business, and newspaper sectors since the late 19th Century. Gothic typefaces – not to be confused with Blackletter typefaces, which look “gothic” in a scary, medieval sort of way – are American sans serifs.

— linotype.com/2694/meet-the-american-gothic-fonts.html

Does that make sense? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

You're better-informed that me, it certainly does make sense. Hum. I'll have to think of alternatives, somehow "Franklin Gothic" didn't come to mind, or the etymology of Gothic for typefaces to begin with here. d'oh! Remsense诉 20:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It's a minefield. The international standards body, ATypI have ripped up their rulebook (Vox-ATypI classification and are rewriting it. I suspect they've finally gotten round to recognising East Asian, South-east Asian and South Asian typefaces are too big an exception to ignore.

Just for everyone else, I'll repeat this gem from the San-serif article:

Gothic: Popular with American type founders. Perhaps the first use of the term was due to the Boston Type and Stereotype Foundry, which in 1837 published a set of sans-serif typefaces under that name. It is believed that those were the first sans-serif designs to be introduced in America. The term probably derived from the architectural definition, which is neither Greek nor Roman, and from the extended adjective term of "Germany", which was the place where sans-serif typefaces became popular in the 19th to 20th centuries. Early adopters for the term includes Miller & Richard (1863), J. & R. M. Wood (1865), Lothian, Conner, Bruce McKellar. Although the usage is now rare in the English-speaking world, the term is commonly used in Japan and South Korea; in China they are known by the term heiti (Chinese: 黑體), literally meaning "black type", which is probably derived from the mistranslation of Gothic as blackletter typeface, even though actual blackletter typefaces have serifs.

— Sans-serif#Other names

so it could well be argued that Ming maps to Blackletter and it is only the later (Song-type) faces that map to San-serif. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 23:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per JMF. Srnec (talk) 00:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
• oppose per JMF; gothic font leads to the disambiguation page. The dab page indicates the correct topic article for "gothic typeface" is sans serif and not this article -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 07:55, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.