Talk:Ebrahim Ebrahim

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 00:08, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

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Ebrahim in 2010

• ... that anti-apartheid activist Ebrahim Ismail Ebrahim (pictured) was kidnapped from Swaziland (now Eswatini) and sentenced in South Africa for 20 years in a trial that was later deemed illegal? Source: https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/who-was-ebrahim-ebrahim-indian-origin-anti-apartheid-veteran-7661106/ https://www.voanews.com/a/ebrahim-ismail-ebrahim-south-african-anti-apartheid-icon-dies-at-84-/6341894.html

• ALT1: that South African anti-apartheid activist and revolutionary Ebrahim Ismail Ebrahim (pictured) would confuse warders at the Robben Island maximum security prison by playing Bollywood music?

[1] Reviewed: Template:Did_you_know_nominations/MLS_Cup_2021 Created by Ktin (talk). Self-nominated at 03:40, 8 December 2021 (UTC). Note to reviewer: My preference is for ALT1. More suitable for DYK. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 06:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Interesting life, on good sources, no copyvio obvious. The image is licensed and a great illustration. I'm not happy with the hooks. The first says more about the system than him, and the second - I don't understand. Perhaps it's just me. How about saying that he did two academic grades while imprisonened? ... or in the same prison as Mandela? - also waiting for qpq --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

• @Gerda Arendt:. Thanks. I will add the QPQ soon. I would want to go with either of the proposed hooks. My first preference is ALT1 and second preference is ALT0. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 16:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
• QPQ done. Passing back to reviewer. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

  Would you mind explaining to me what ALT1 means? I'd not feel good about passing a hook I don't understand, and I don't like the other much, as explained: he is all passive in being kidnapped and in prison. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

  • Hello @Gerda Arendt: Re: ALT0 -- that one is anything but passive. He was a revolutionary who was underground as a part of the ANC's armed resistance wing (MK) -- specifically, in this case there was an ambush I believe and he was abducted by an apartheid security force from Swaziland and captured there and brought to SA and imprisoned for the second time in Robben Island. After 1991 when the courts of appeal were set up, he was released with the note that the SA jurisdiction did not extend into the neighboring country and hence the trial that got him in was illegal. RE: ALT1, the hook references his love for Indian film music particularly of Lata Mangeshkar, Geeta Dutt et al and says that when the prisoners had a chance to choose music to broadcast in the cells, he did the same, delighting in confusing the warders with sitars and Bollywood. Warders = prison guard. Hope this helps. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 07:41, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

    Hello! Please indent per the essay on top of User talk:Drmies.

    I approve both hooks then, but still don't see any activity of him in the original (only unjust reactions to it), and don't understand what is confusing about the love of Bollywood music for someone with Indian roots (which seems quite the normal thing to me). Nevermind. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:53, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

    • Sounds good. Thanks Gerda. Ktin (talk) 16:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

      Comment: I've re-opened this nomination after closing, since I can't grant the special request to put this in image slot right now with DYKNA's current mix. This nomination probably shouldn't be put in the image slot until at least after Christmas. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 22:13, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

ALT1 to T:DYK/P7

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ebrahim Ismail Ebrahim/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 13:57, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:57, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately tagged; sources are reliable.

• Can we say what his seat was in the 1994 and subsequent National Assemblies? What constituency did he represent?

That's the only issue; the prose is clean and I see no problems. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:15, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the review Mike. Gosh this proved to be unexpectedly difficult. I would have expected solid sources for the members of each of the parliament terms e.g. 22nd parliament of South Africa. Zilch. Anyways I added a small piece of information. Slightly disappointing. C'est la vie. Please have a look. Ktin (talk) 16:28, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

That's a pity, and surprising as you say. Presumably there are hardcopy or library sources in South Africa one could use, but for GA I think this is enough, so passing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:37, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Spotchecks

Ktin, I realized after I promoted this that I should have been doing spotchecks on the sources. I've gone back and done some, and there are a couple of close paraphrasing issues that need to be taken care of.

• FN 11 cites 'In 2010, he issued a statement that the "Israel and Palestine conflict is primarily about freedom to live in dignity" and called for an "end to the cleansing of Palestinians from Jerusalem."' The source has 'In a 2010 statement [...] he said the “Israel and Palestine conflict is primarily about freedom to live in dignity” and called for an end to what he described as “the cleansing of Palestinians from Jerusalem.”' Of course the quote itself is fine, but the rest of the sentence is almost identical to the wording of the source.
• FN 1 cites "Ebrahim was released from prison in 1991, when the court of appeal ruled that the South African court's jurisdiction did not extend over a foreign country and hence ruled the kidnapping illegal." The source has "But he was released in 1991, after the court of appeal ruled that the South African court had no jurisdiction in a foreign country and that his kidnapping was illegal." This is almost identical.
• FN 5 cites "Ebrahim went into exile in 1980 at the instructions of the ANC." The source has "He went to exile on instruction of the ANC in 1980." This is almost identical.
• FN 9 cites "In this new role, he started as a lawmaker and later became a mediator, participating in mediations between the Palestinians and Israel, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Rwanda, and also in Nepal, Bolivia, Kosovo, and Burundi." The source has "Starting as a lawmaker, he moved on to become a government advisor, helping to mediate conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo, as well as in Burundi, Kosovo, Bolivia, and Nepal." Not much you can do about the country names, but even accounting for that this is too similar; and the source says he became a government advisor, not a mediator. I imagine you were trying to avoid repeating the source, but these are not the same thing.
• FN 14 cites "He also had another daughter from his earlier relationship with an American academic Julia Wells." The source gives her name as "Julie", not "Julia".
• FN 3 cites "Inspired by Mahatma Gandhi's passive resistance movement, he attended Albert Luthuli's rallies. Luthuli, an ANC leader, would later go on to be the first African to win a Nobel Peace Prize, in 1960." The source has "Inspired by Mahatma Gandhi’s passive resistance campaigns in India, Ebrahim attended speeches by Albert Luthuli, the ANC leader who in 1960 became the first African to win the Nobel Peace Prize." This is almost identical.
• FN 1 cites "Ebrahim was released from prison in 1991, when the court of appeal ruled that the South African court's jurisdiction did not extend over a foreign country and hence ruled the kidnapping illegal." The source has "But he was released in 1991, after the court of appeal ruled that the South African court had no jurisdiction in a foreign country and that his kidnapping was illegal." Too closely paraphrased.

Can you go through the article and fix these and any other problems you find? Sorry about this -- I really should have found these during the GA review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:11, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Acknowleding this message @Mike Christie. I am heads-down on a few off-wiki priorities for the next week at least. I will have these addressed the moment I find some time to get back onto WP. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 14:39, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

No problem; I'll check in in a couple of weeks if you haven't gotten to it by then. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:58, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Ktin, just checking in to see if you've had a chance to look at this yet. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:18, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience on this one @Mike Christie. I hope to have some cycles after Thursday / Friday of this week, and will target this one the first among my other actions. Ktin (talk) 15:46, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks -- I've done a bit more rewording as I think what you had done wasn't quite enough. I think it's OK now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:37, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Article title

I requested the article be moved to "Ebrahim Ebrahim" on the grounds of WP:COMMONNAME.[2]. The reason I'm adding this section is in case someone decides to propose a move back at some point in the future, because foreign obituaries (and probably based on the Wikipedia article title - WP:CIRCULAR) used his full name incorrectly.

In South Africa he was/is referred to as "Ebrahim Ebrahim". South African WP:RS news sources refer to him as Ebrahim Ebrahim: [3] (see also video) [4][5]. His own political party, the ANC, called him "Ebrahim Ebrahim" [6][7]. He called himself Ebrahim Ebrahim in his memoirs[8] Park3r (talk) 23:21, 18 July 2023 (UTC)