Talk:Ethnic groups in Europe

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Native European[edit]

Almost all populations in Europe are native, yet the page says they are all extinct... what? Germans are extinct in Germany? Britons are extinct in Britain? This is a severe case of poor-quality lying. Who are you trying to fool, 3 year olds? Do you think an Irish people will read this and think they are extinct in Ireland or actually immmigrants from Mars? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.101.128 (talk) 20:44, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups[edit]

Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 07:10, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2016[edit]

I need to edit, change and update "by country" paragraph for accuracy. There is a need for removal of some possibly inaccurate and unsourced edits. For example, Frisian-Dominant-speaking (0.01% is too small, unless there are places like islands where Dutch is hardly spoken) in "others" in the Netherlands, and replace it with information on Iranians in the Netherlands, who form among the top 10 ethnic groups in the country. Reference link https://www.internations.org/netherlands-expats/iranians The Netherlands census categorizes South Moluccans apart from Indonesians. http://www.safecom.org.au/dutch-moluccans.htm Adinneli (talk) 20:09, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:18, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

My apologies, let's try it again. Please change the mention of Frisian-speaking Dominant to South Moluccans in the Netherlands in "by country" section of the article. The article states 200,000 South Moluccans live in the Netherlands, which the country has 18 million residents, so they make up over 1% (1.5%?) of the population.

Adinneli (talk) 04:41, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Indians link[edit]

please change ((Indians)) to ((Indian people|Indians))

 Done - by another - Arjayay (talk) 16:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

germans without Immigrant background same as Ethnic germans?[edit]

Is the true percentage of Ethnic germans lower than 81% in the form? - signed by anon IP

American (United States) expats in Europe[edit]

Europe has between 4.5 to 5.5 million American expats, with the highest numbers in the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland, but they live everywhere in the continent. This is the highest number ever for US citizens and/or descendants in Europe. Many came to the continent to retire, as well those who do business and a few for political, economic or personal reasons finding Europe a better place than the US. 67.49.89.214 (talk) 14:33, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2016[edit]

Modern ethnic Europeans are a recent and ongoing evolution. The original anatomically modern human migrants to Europe from Africa arrived 40,000 years ago; these prehistoric Europeans were predominantly dark skinned, short of stature, lactose intolerant, and looked dramatically different in comparison to modern Europeans.[citation needed] The genetic lineage of Europe mysteriously[citation needed] transformed about 4,500 years ago, with changes in diet, body size and skin pigmentation, when Central Asian and West Asian migrants arrived with taller height and light skin genes, respectively.[1][2]

References

This entire section needs either removing or re-writing. Especially the first couple of lines which make some outrageous and very offensive as well as vague claims about European history with no evidence to back them up (citation needed, etc) The article in the 4th line about Europeans being darked skinned 8000 years ago has also been debunked.

Please clean up your site and check sources as well as remove content that has no validity but aims to confuse the public who use your site. thanks.

Jamesbrensonton (talk) 20:57, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your concerns. If you have a suggestion for the text, please re-open the request. Requests are typically of the format "Change X to Y". While the section may need copyediting, your request as currently phrased is very difficult to act on. — Andy W. (talk ·ctb) 20:51, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

DailyMail as a source?[edit]

The genetic lineage of Europe rapidly transformed about 4,500 years ago, with changes in diet, body size and skin pigmentation, when Central Asian and West Asian migrants arrived with taller height and light skin genes, respectively.[2][3] There is no precise or universally accepted definition of the terms "ethnic group" or "nationality"..

What? The first part is absolutely false and has been debunked. So. Many. Times. It's a pseudoscientific myth. And the second sentence is a pointless statement and reeks of ideological subjectivism (especially in the light of the current political events in Europe). And who on Earth thought that DailyMail is a scientific source? :D What is this garbage?

Also: "Modern ethnic Europeans are a recent and ongoing evolution" Since your first original statement is false, the "recent" part is false too. And all ethnicities are in ongoing evolution, so that also is quite pointless.


I am alarmed that the DailyMail source is still up there, especially after multiple removals. And now the edits are forbidden for the common folk, that makes it perfect. Shame, wikipedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamp987 (talkcontribs) 21:59, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

That particular section had some citation needed tags on it, but since nothing was actually done about the issue (and a citation was not actually needed), I removed them. If you think the source is incorrect or poor, you're free to either fix it yourself or at the very least add the proper tag to it.
For what it's worth, yes, the sources for that part were very poor and dubious. However, the correct approach to this situation is not to complain about it on the talk page, or just tag it and move on; if you know the information is incorrect, remove it.
(also, when going through the page's history, I did not notice anything that looked like multiple prior removals of that information)
-- turdastalk 23:32, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Article structure/content improvements[edit]

At the time of writing the article contains (or contained) a massive amount of tables. I have removed the longer set of these tables, from the Linguistic classifications section, as the information in them should be—and already is—in the separate Languages of Europe article.

I don't really like the look of the other table either, because it takes up a lot of vertical space and interrupts the prose on the page. Maybe it should be moved to the bottom of the page, or moved to a new page entirely (eg. "List of ethnic groups in Europe"). Either way, I've left it alone because its contents are relevant to the article.

-- turdastalk 00:16, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

who selected languages in the "Overview map of the distribution of the major languages of Europe"[edit]

Why do we have 'South Estonian' and 'Rusyn' - both being varieties / kindred languages of Estonian and Ukrainian - while we do not have Low German for Germany and Kashubian for Poland and Occitan for France and Pomor for Russia? (France does not even have Breton language!)

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Move to Indigenous peoples of Europe[edit]

Requested move 18 January 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Clear consensus against a move here. (non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 03:46, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


Ethnic groups in EuropeIndigenous peoples of Europe – Harmonization. The article title is an odd outlier. It is the only one on indigenous people per continent which does not address these peoples as such. Therefore it needs to be brought in line with that of the others in the Category:Indigenous peoples by region:

Note that all these overview articles are either directly or indirectly categorized under Category:Ethnic groups by continent, just as this one, so there is no reason for making an exception for Europe.

Actually, when you look at it, the whole Category:Indigenous peoples of Europe is inexplicably skewed in that it is topically narrowed down on a small subset of 'exotic' minorities, while leaving out the much larger peoples of the Poles, Swedes, Germans, Italians etc., whereas in the case of the other continents even the largest indigenous peoples are included. I am not aware of any credible, non-political anthropological research which denies the term indigenous to the ethnic peoples of Europe of all alone, creating an accepted scholarly set of double standards.

Finally, while it is true that a small subsection of this article refers to non-indigenous groups, these complements have not kept the other continental articles from being titled as they are (e.g. Africa). Kind regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:35, 18 January 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 08:36, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Article title should be brought into line with those of every other article dealing with Indigenous peoples of a continent. siarach (talk) 09:14, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps the problem arises from the meaning of Indigenous peoples, which is based upon the UN definition as those groups that are currently ethnic minorities within nations that have majority populations from colonial/settler ethnic groups. This is the definition in international law. The everyday dictionary definition of "indigenous" as synonymous with "native born" (as opposed to immigrant) is not generally accepted or ditinct; since those that have been born in a county but continue to speak the language and observe the customs of their parents or ancestors are likely to identify themselves as having a "hyphenated" ethnicity; but another individual may abandon the hyphen in the first generation. The "indigenous peoples" of Europe would only be minorities such as the Basques? The peoples of Europe that do not identify as either colonized or colonizers do not fit neatly into these distinctions. Distinctions based upon historical migrations and conquests, where there may not have been majorities tied to any geographic location, become even more problematical. For example, are Celts defined by language, heredity, history, or culture? Indigenous in one country but not in another? This rename would impose the term "indigenous" on people who do not identify themselves as such.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 16:08, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
It does make sense to unify titles that discuss analogous topics, but if there is a real difference in how the topic is discussed by experts, then it would be better to follow the actual terminology in use, even at the expense of uniformity. If the UN definition is in widespread use among anthropologists, historians, linguists, and other experts on ethnicity, then that should be reflected in the article title. It is better to have a title that stands out from similar titles than it is to have a title that is inaccurate. Consider how the sources treat the term "indigenous peoples" before deciding whether to make a change. In just a cursory examination, none of the works in the bibliography have "indigenous" in their title, whereas most of them have "ethnicity" or "ethnic groups". The article title should follow the prevailing terminology used by reliable sources, before any other consideration. After looking through the articles Indigenous peoples and List of indigenous peoples, it seems clear that there is a distinction between the case of Europe and the case of the places described in the other articles. "Indigenous" in this sense is used to distinguish one ethnic group from different ethnic groups that settled, invaded, or colonized an area later. By that meaning, there is no way one could consider the English or Russians an indigenous people, since there are no later settlers to contrast them with (though Basques, Sami eg. are considered indigenous to differentiate them from the current ethnic majorities of the regions they inhabit). In that sense "Indigenous peoples of Europe" would be a different article than this one, including only those ethnic groups named in List of indigenous peoples#Europe, and not those that make up the majority of the population of Europe. This distinction seems pretty consistent throughout the site, so unless you find some sources describing all of the ethnic groups of Europe as "indigenous peoples", then nothing should change. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 21:55, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
But the same objections can be applied to all the other continents. Why is it that ought only be valid for Europe? There are also those in all the other continents who are historical immigrants, many Europeans, but also those from other continents. So shouldn't all the other articles be renamed then as well? It makes no sense to have different headings for the entire world except for Europe even though the situation all over the world is the same. The only possible difference there is, is that of political motive. So either rename the other articles to "ethnic groups of", or give the people of Europe the indigenous status they are due.SonOfTheLion (talk) 16:36, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
If there are really objective reasons for treating Europe different from all other continents, these scholarly sources should be laid out here for discussion, but I find it hard to believe that such a Lex Europa should exist in anthropology. On what grounds? My sense is that the List of indigenous peoples#Europe is very much at odds with the general notion of what constitute indigenous peoples and in any case Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:40, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm not saying that the other articles should be treated as definitive. However, no sources supporting this move have been presented. An editor's reasoning, valid or not, is not enough justification to make a move when the existing information argues against it. The UN website about indigenous peoples (which seems like a good place to start) contains this: "Indigenous peoples are inheritors and practitioners of unique cultures and ways of relating to people and the environment. They have retained social, cultural, economic and political characteristics that are distinct from those of the dominant societies in which they live." Furthermore, the UN Guidelines on Indigenous Peoples' Issues lists several definitions, all of which emphasize a distinct culture among a dominant society that came later. If that definition of "indigenous people" is the prevailing one, then this article is not about the "indigenous peoples of Europe", and naming it such would be misleading and inaccurate. If there is a definition more generally accepted or more appropriate here than the UN one, then there should be some sources explaining it. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 02:51, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. While the description "indigenous peoples of Europe" is accurate, the term indigenous peoples is typically used (as reflected in the UN definition) for marginalized or oppressed peoples whose distinct way of life (not only language) is more noble or worthy than that of the oppressors or marginalizers. That is not the case with the peoples in this article. Instead, the term most often refers to peoples like the Lapps or Nenets. Note the usage in Indigenous peoples of Africa where the term normally only refers to groups like the Pygmies or Bushmen. It is the List of indigenous peoples that has problems and should be culled. —  AjaxSmack  20:02, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose even a glance at the article shows it's about ethnic groups, not indigenous peoples. Hungarians are on the map in the lead, they're not indigenous, they're from Asia. For anyone who demands an initialism for justification, there's WP:DESCRIPDIS. Ribbet32 (talk) 01:46, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose as argued above. This article is not primarily about "indigenous peoples of Europe" as the term is defined. The title "ethnic groups in Europe" accurately describes the contents of this article. It contains useful information that is broader in scope than "indigenous peoples of Europe", and shouldn't be cut, changed, or renamed to fit a topic that would be better served by its own article. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 05:09, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per above, though we could have an article on actually indigenous peoples of Europe. It would need a whole section on different ways to define that. Many would include the Hungarians at this point, while others would not even include the Indo-European groups and only include the Basques, Lappland Finns (Saami) and other groups (mostly extinct/absorbed, like the Picts) that pre-date the Indo-Europeans. A problem here is that "indigenous" in the socio-political sense most of us are familiar with means "present in an area before European colonists arrived", so that most common definition is automatically inapplicable to Europe itself. While anthropologists and such may have alternative definitions, they are not the ones users will be familiar with.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  05:37, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - clearly not about indigenous peoples. BobLaRouche (talk) 17:04, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Odd Group Out[edit]

Loving the racism above. Everyone can be indigenous to a place, except Europeans, who just exist because white skin and oppression or something. Never mind that Europeans have been taken as slaves by non-European people in even recent human history. But, if disgusting racism makes you feel better about yourselves, have at it.173.179.145.202 (talk) 18:34, 30 March 2017 (UTC)