Talk:Kim de l'Horizon

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A fact from Kim de l'Horizon appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 22 December 2022 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Kim de l'Horizon (pictured), winner of the 2022 German Book Prize, shaved their head during the award ceremony in solidarity with those protesting in Iran?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2022/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Kim de l'Horizon.

translation of title

although it is clear that de l'horizon had intended to reference the copper beech in the book's title, as noted by nzz here, i had used the translation "Blood Book" because it was the only one i had found in reliable english-language sources at the time. (an english-language swiss source, from swissinfo, also uses "Blood Book", though i had somehow missed it at the time and cited a french-language source from swissinfo instead.) a sample translation of part of the book's text, provided by dumont (the publisher), uses the translation "Bloodbook", without a space. (i ended up including a space, like many secondary sources do, to conform with the norms of spacing in english.) the sample translation's text also includes a mention of the tree, so i believe the translator deliberately chose not to use the tree as the title's translation. my (admittedly pitiful) understanding of swiss german leads me to believe that "Blutbuche", with an 'e', is how the word referring to the tree is generally spelt (as seen in the aforementioned source in nzz, a newspaper based in zürich), although i understand that there isn't really a standard orthography of swiss german.

given all of the above, i worry that providing "Copper beech" as the gloss for the book's title, though well-meant, may actually be misleading. would it be more appropriate to use "Blood Book" as the gloss, but add a footnote explaining the reference to the tree?

pinging Matthiaspaul, who provided the translation from swiss german. dying (talk) 11:27, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Blutbuch is Swiss-German dialect for what in standard German is Blutbuche, which would literally translate as "blood beech", the type of tree actually called copper beech. The term Blutbuch does not exist in standard German (and would be considered a typo for Blutbuche), but it could be constructed as a compound from the words Blut (blood) and Buch (book). If so, a "Blutbuch", in standard German, would be (literally) a book of blood or (artistically) a book discussing gross violence.

It is quite possible that the author deliberately chose the book's title to have different meanings depending on if interpreted as Swiss-German or standard German. Other Swiss-German terms like Grossmeer or Meer used in the book also have different meanings depending on context - in standard German Meer is an ocean or sea (and Grossmeer does not exist as a term, but if used as a compound, it would be a large ocean), whereas in Bernese dialect Meer means Mutter (mother) and a Grossmeer is a Großmutter (grandmother), so there is a similar ambiguity here as well. In the book, the author uses Blutbuch to refer to the tree and (Gross)meer to refer to the protagonist's (grand)mother, but this doesn't exclude double-meanings on a meta level.

I have no issues with moving the translation and further explanations into a footnote, in fact I was considering this as well. If we do, we should only leave the plain title "Blutbuch" in the prose and not try to offer a translation for it in line.

--Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:11, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

that makes sense, Matthiaspaul. i had not realized that de l'horizon actually used "Blutbuch" to refer to the tree in the novel, as i had only seen the translated text. in that case, i agree that it may be better to place both translations in the footnote, so as to not express a clear preference for either one. as you have a far better grasp of the nuances of the situation than i do, i think it would be better if you drafted the footnote, if you are willing.

by the way, my current understanding of when to use a hyphen when referring to the dialect is that a hyphen is not used when "Swiss German" is a standalone noun (e.g., "I wish I was fluent in Swiss German"), but is used when "Swiss-German" is used attributively (e.g., "There are many Swiss-German dialects"). i think this is because "Swiss German" does not appear to be normally hyphenated on en wikipedia, while there may be a slight difference of meaning between "Swiss German dialect" and "Swiss-German dialect".^[a] the article on swiss german doesn't fully conform to this though, so i could easily be wrong. dying (talk) 07:52, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Matthiaspaul, i have gone ahead and added a footnote to further explain the title. please correct me if i have made any mistakes. thanks! dying (talk) 23:30, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

^ an alemannic dialect of german spoken by french people who work in liechtenstein may be a swiss-german dialect, but perhaps not a swiss german dialect. additionally, if a group from bergün moved to an area near berghain and tried but failed to speak berlin german, their attempt may be a swiss german dialect, but perhaps not a swiss-german dialect.

birth date

Raphael1256, do you have a reliable source for that birth date? i have seen it elsewhere, but only in unreliable sources. dying (talk) 07:53, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

blick has recently reported de l'horizon's date of birth, so i have now added a citation to that source. dying (talk) 23:30, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

Kim de l'Horizon

... that Kim de l'Horizon (pictured), winner of the 2022 German Book Prize, shaved their head during the award ceremony in a sign of solidarity with those protesting in Iran? Source: https://archive.today/20221018035042/https://www.rfi.fr/en/people-and-entertainment/20221017-swiss-author-shaves-head-on-stage-after-winning-award
- Reviewed: Cumulus Corporation
- Comment: this article has a potential issue, as kim de l'horizon has previously used another name, and it is currently unclear if de l'horizon is a pseudonym, or if the other name is a deadname. i have requested further guidance at wt:mosbio here, but i don't think there has been any definitive advice yet. in the meantime, other editors have made additions that would normally violate en wikipedia's policies and guidelines regarding deadnames, but i haven't reverted them simply because i do not know if de l'horizon's other name is actually a deadname. personally, i have been trying to edit as if de l'horizon's other name is a deadname, so there are a number of details that i haven't added to the article simply because i have yet to find a source mentioning the detail but not de l'horizon's other name. i would welcome any second opinions on the matter, either from a reviewer or any drive-by commenters. i have no problems having this hook held until the issue is resolved.
  also, the qpq i have provided is a full review, but is still awaiting a qpq before a final approval. do these count?
  by the way, i recognize that a few of the sources have yet to be formatted to dyk standards, but i wanted to nominate this before the deadline passed first. i have never gotten citation bot to work, and generally rely on friendly wikignomes to eventually help me out. if you would like to review this, please place it on hold after reviewing. i can address all other issues in the meantime, and eventually ping you once the sources are formatted to dyk standards.

Created by dying (talk). Self-nominated at 04:19, 25 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Interesting book and life, so far more about the book but I hope for expansion. I can read German sources, no copyvio obvious. Let me know when done. Fine hook of solidarity! The image is great, and almost needed to show that they are not the typical Swiss author. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:58, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Book fair is over, so the sentence could go to past tense. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:59, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, dying, have you seen this review? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 06:11, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

whoops! i had deliberately meant to set this aside for a week or so to get some clarity on the pseudonym versus deadname situation, but apparently, pausing work on it made it fall off my radar. i should have an expansion prepared in the next few days. thanks for the ping, theleekycauldron. dying (talk) 07:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda Arendt, i have now fleshed out the article with more details about the author. apologies for the delay!

also, there has been speculation that the german national library (dnb) would eventually update its entry for de l'horizon appropriately if de l'horizon's other name should be treated as a deadname, but as of this writing, the dnb still explicitly states that "Kim de l'Horizon" is a pseudonym, and refers to de l'horizon's other name as a "Wirklicher Name" ('real name'). however, perhaps a week or two ago, the web site that published what i believe is the most prominent online literary work originally written under de l'horizon's other name has changed the byline of the work to "Kim de l'Horizon". in addition, over time, reliable sources have generally removed references to de l'horizon's other name rather than add a clarification that de l'horizon's name is a pseudonym. as i prefer to err on the side of caution, i am continuing to treat de l'horizon's other name as a deadname, and have been trying to avoid using any sources that refer to it.

by the way, i am unsure what you mean by "the sentence could go to past tense". which sentence are you referring to? dying (talk) 16:08, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

thank you! to begin with the last question: "and security has been provided for de l'Horizon's appearances at the Frankfurt Book Fair", i'd say "was provided" as that fair is over, and was over when I reviewed. A family member attended, so I knew that detail ;) - i am with you for the name question.

- just for suggestions: when i translate a title that is not also a title in english, i leave it in sentence case. Blutbuch deserves a translation of the nicely ambiguous title: blood both for the liquid as for family lineage. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:18, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

oh, it's a quadruply ambiguous title! i had completely missed the fact that the title could be referring to familial relations, which seems blindingly obvious now that you point it out, since the book is about familial relations. the translation of the book's title was previously discussed on the talk page, but only three interpretations had been mentioned. i had left the interpretation of "blood" ambiguous in the explanatory footnote as i had figured that the reader would be able to recognize that the word could either refer to the liquid or to violence, though now that i realize that i had missed a third interpretation, i have explicitly mentioned all three in the footnote. courtesy pinging Matthiaspaul to let him know that we both missed the interpretation that you pointed out.

also, thanks for catching that tense error! my eyes focused on the "has" and assumed it was already in past tense, when it was actually in present perfect tense. i have now updated that statement to use past tense instead. i have also done the same for the statement about amazon reviews to avoid an awkward shift in tense in the middle of a sentence, since presumably the review bombing has died down anyway.

i am assuming that, with regard to sentence case, you are referring to the gloss of the 2021 play, so i have changed the gloss accordingly. (i agree with your position on sentence case, but had left the capitalization alone when another editor had added it, as i am currently unaware of the mos advocating for either practice. i later added the gloss for the 2017 production in sentence case because i had forgotten about the earlier use of title case.) i had a harder time figuring out what case to use in the explanatory footnote for the book title, but had decided to leave the translations uncapitalized because they were translations of the word "Blutbuch" rather than the title "Blutbuch". please let me know if you disagree.

anyway, many thanks, Gerda. hope your family member enjoyed their time at the book fair! dying (talk) 00:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dying: As noted in Special:Diff/1125871817 the bare URL references need to be fixed. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:01, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda, thanks to RoySmith's suggestion, i finally found a script that worked for me, and ran it for the sources that needed fixing. please let me know if there are any other concerns. thanks, Gerda! dying (talk) 09:58, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
thank you! i think you can combine 13 and 20. fine from my side. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
oh, i had not realized that both pages of that article could be displayed under one url! combined. thanks, Gerda! dying (talk) 00:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Their pronouns are they)/them

Please be considerate 2001:1C02:1914:4200:1D56:8A72:CD37:D8 (talk) 08:36, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Every human contains either xx or xy chromosomes. This asinine attempt to be "gender fluid" is devolution at it's best. We're not amphibians. If there's ever a subject to "trust the hard science" of anatomy/physiology/genetics, this is one of them. Someone needs to put HIS gender pronouns back into the appropriate, biological gender. 132.147.145.84 (talk) 17:55, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1. Based. 2. This violates the Wikipedia guideline on Gender identities. ~~lol1 VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 18:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Two things about this: 1) Gender identity is not about genetics. It's a social construct which is very different from biological gender. 2) and even when it comes to biological gender, it seems that almost 2% of the population is born with ambiguous traits (meaning, not clearly xx or xy). So even the biological argument is deeply flawed. 95.205.152.168 (talk) 06:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ^ an alemannic dialect of german spoken by french people who work in liechtenstein may be a swiss-german dialect, but perhaps not a swiss german dialect. additionally, if a group from bergün moved to an area near berghain and tried but failed to speak berlin german, their attempt may be a swiss german dialect, but perhaps not a swiss-german dialect.

[a]