Talk:L'Oiseau Blanc

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Good articleL'Oiseau Blanc has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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Article revision[edit]

In reviewing this article, it is not written in the standard used by the WP:Aviation Group. Comments? FWiW FWiW (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2012 (UTC).

Hi Bzuk, thanks for the help on the article. I have reverted the page move though, since there was no discussion. My own preference (as the article creator and the one who brought this article to GA status) is for the article to be titled The White Bird since that is the name most often used in English-language sources. --Elonka 11:18, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
This is one of the conundrums of naming, in that a French aircraft that is universally known as L'Oiseau Blanc rather than the English translation of "The White Bird" was used as the title of this and other "anglicized" works. When I first stumbled upon this article, a standard check of sources revealed that L'Oiseau Blanc (the actual name) appears in contemporary as well as current reference sources. I polled as many as 20 sources, including A. Scott Berg, and all except one author/historian (Richard Montague) used L'Oiseau Blanc but nearly all, excepting Montague, did refer to the translated "The White Bird". In considering the format of titling, MOS indicates that common names should predominate, especially when dealing with foreign (read international) subjects. A cursory search of sources indicates a 3:1 predominance in the use of L'Oiseau Blanc as the primary name of the aircraft, with nearly all English-language sources also referring to the translation of the name. (In the interests of full disclosure, I am an author and editor in the "real" and "reel" world, and have been attempting <writer's block kicking in here> to complete a manuscript on 1920s–1930s transatlantic flights and their connection to Canada.) Note that in the recent revisions to the article, I did try to preserve your "author's voice" and made minimal changes to writing style, and concentrated on format changes to create a consistent, verifiable, authoritative and "easy-to-read/follow" format that is the basis of approximately 6,000 articles in the WP:Aviation group. FWIW, Bzuk

Requested move[edit]

Mjroots (talk) 18:00, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

The White BirdL'Oiseau Blanc – The name, L'Oiseau Blanc is the actual name of the aircraft, and so appears as such in both contemporary (period) and current literature sources. The present title, "The White Bird" is a translation of the name that is only present in a minority of worldwide sources as the predominate title.

In determining which of several alternative names to be the most frequently used as the title for this article, a review of the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, major aeronautic bodies and authoritative journals indicates that L'Oiseau Blanc appears most frequently to a total of 180,000 sources that includes both American and other reference sources. When the translation is included in a title search for "single" use, only 54,000 sources are indicated. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 15:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose move. The name The White Bird is the most common way that the aircraft is referred to in English-language sources (a simple scan of the article's sources shows this). Most sources may indeed include the wording L'Oiseau Blanc in the article as the original French name, but the name The White Bird is used routinely in the titles and the rest of the text. --Elonka 03:13, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Only if sources are "cherry picked" do you find that the English translation is universally in use, rather, all authoritative reference sources and that includes both aviation and historical records, indicate that L'Oiseau Blanc is the correct and accurate title. The use of a nickname or personal name for an aircraft is one that stems from the dawn of aerial history. During the major conflicts, military pilots would decorate their aircraft in colorful livery as a means of identification in battle or for strictly personal reasons. These names and the accompanying "nose art" continues to be applied to the present to distinguish individual aircraft. Civil aircraft like L'Oiseau Blanc also received a personal name or nomenclature. JetBlue Airline calls many of its aircraft by name including Canard Bleu and Mi Corazon Azul but never refers to the aircraft as "Blue tail" or "My blue heart". In all instances, the original name was retained, rather than a translation. The use of "The White Bird" is a singular remnant of a time when American media would prefer to use the translation rather than the actual name. Regardless, I have yet to find more than a few individual examples, of a reference source that does not acknowledge the name, L'Oiseau Blanc, yet approximately 190,000 reference sources use L'Oiseau Blanc as the primary name of the aircraft as well as acknowledging the Americanized version of the name, while only a handful of sources, primarily archaic, use "The White Bird". The use of a singularly Americanized version is anathema to the goal of telling the remarkable saga of an iconic French aviation mystery. Here is a list of other famous aircraft names with their English translation (none of which is used as the primary name even in American publications, and the howling that would emit from Wiki editors globally would be fulsome, if anyone began to use the bowdlerized versions of the names):
      • Pierre Clostermann's Hawker Tempest Le Grand Charles ("Big Charlie")
      • Francesco de Pinedo's Savio Marchetti S.55 Santa Maria ("Holy Mary")
      • Ramón Franco's Dorniel Wal Plus Ultra ("Further beyond")
      • Adolf Galland's Messerschmitt Bf 109E Mickeymaus ("Mickey Mouse")
      • George Guynemer's Spad S.VII Vieux Charles ("Old Charles")
      • Erich Hartmann's Messerschmitt Bf 109G Karaya ("Land")
      • James Howard's North American P-51B Mustang Ding Hao! ("Number One" or "Very good")

─────────────────────────The final irony of using the translation of "The White Bird" is that Charles Nungesser and François Coli in naming their Levasseur PL. 8 L'Oiseau Blanc were, in reality, making a playful gesture, in calling it "The white aircraft" as oiseau is and was aviation slang for "aircraft" (or in archaic terms, aeroplane, airplane or plane). Journalists struggling with the name, resorted to a literal translation of oiseau, ergo, "bird" or "fowl" ("dove" is a mistranslation as is "crow", however the slang term à vol d’oiseau is often translated "as the crow flies."). FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC).

  • I think the bird/airplane metaphor is apparent from the English translation as well. If anything, readers are more likely to pick it up if it is in English. Kauffner (talk) 14:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I get 411 (62 deghosted) post-1980 English-language GBook results for Nungesser "White Bird" -llc, 372 (35 deghosted) for Nungesser "L'Oiseau Blanc" -llc. Kauffner (talk) 03:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Judging from the titles of Russian ships like Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov/Admiral Flota Sovetskogo Soyuza Kuznetsov, there doesn't seem to be any rule against translating ship and plane names. So we can go with the most common English-language form. The top-selling book that deals with this subject on Amazon is Jackson's [http://www.amazon.com/Atlantic-Fever-Lindbergh-Competitors-Cross/dp/0374106754/ref=sr_1_3?s= Atlantic Fever]. This book uses "White Bird" 29 times, and never mentions "L'Oiseau Blanc". The No. 2 book is Lindbergh's [http://www.amazon.com/dp/0743237056/ref=rdr_ext_tmb The Spirit of St. Louis], which also uses "White Bird" exclusively. Kauffner (talk) 14:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Neither of these titles meets the standards of "best source", yet even Jackson's effusive yet lively narrative uses both L'Oiseau Blanc and its translation, while Lindbergh's narrative, widely acclaimed for its literary attributes, is essentially a personal account, relying on the news reports of the times to describe his competitors, that in the United States, had most commonly used "The White Bird". All the authoritative and verifiable English-language sources (excepting one) that I researched, noted the christening of L'Oiseau Blanc. When all English-language sources are considered, a cursory google search shows a worldwide predominance of L'Oiseau Blanc as the name of the aircraft. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The two names get about the same number of results on GBooks, which is not surprising given that a book on this subject will typically mention both names at some point. The idea is to find the WP:COMMONNAME, the name the reader is most likely to recognize. This suggests consulting the popular sources that you apparently look down on. Kauffner (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The sources I included in the survey were books, encyclopedias, news and journal articles. Although Joe Jackson, the author of Atlantic Fever is not an acknowledged aviation expert, an extensive bibliography is provided in his recent account. In the text, both Santa Maria and L'Oiseau Blanc appear as the actual names of aircraft. Almost exclusively, "The White Bird" appears in U.S.-based publications while L'Oiseau Blanc is present in a multitude of worldwide sources. The common name should not be a U.S.-centric version, it should be the name most closely associated globally with the aircraft. BTW, WOADB is my precept. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 17:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC).
  • Support - a quick view at the sources shows that the actual name is more common in WP:RS "best such sources" for the subject, modern aviation books. The lede of the article " most commonly known as The White Bird (L'Oiseau Blanc or The White Dove) " is problematic. "Most commonly" can't be stated given the GB results, and with all respect to the hard work of article creator no printed source has "The White Dove" - perhaps some confusion with the Dornier Wal Shirahato (White Dove) flying boat? Aireview's The fifty years of Japanese aviation, 1910-1960 1961 Page 144? Or the wreck of the Portuguese White Dove "fly boat", Pomba Branca ? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:55, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The "note to the reader" can be amended to read: "In the United States, L'Oiseau Blanc was commonly known as 'The White Bird'." The lede statement can also be revised to state: "The Levasseur PL.8, christened L'Oiseau Blanc (The White Bird), was a single engine, two-seat long-distance record-breaking biplane aircraft modified from an existing Levasseur PL.4 carrier-based reconnaissance aircraft produced in France in the 1920s." FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC).
  • Support - The name of the aircraft was L'Oiseau Blanc not the white bird. Do French references translate the likes of Enola Gay [1] or Bocks Car [2], no of course they don't. There is no relevant argument for not moving the article.--Petebutt (talk) 11:12, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
    • The article should be titled by the most common name as used in English-language sources, per WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article.'' Even a cursory scan of the article's sources, shows that The White Bird is the most common name. I note also that an editor tried to change the title of a source, possibly to bolster this renaming case. I'm not sure who did it or when, but I've changed it back.[3] Even if someone disagrees with how a source is titled, that does not give them the right to try and re-title it to what they think it should be. The source title should be listed as it appears in the actual source. --Elonka 19:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I concur with Bushranger in NEVER having seen or heard the aircraft referred to as the White Bird.--Petebutt (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Support - appears to be more the common name and the name that the general reader would associate with a French named aircraft. Interestingly I cant find any evidence that it was actually painted on the aircraft, contempary sources general call it Nungesser's aircraft or even Nungesser and Col's aircraft. MilborneOne (talk) 21:13, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

─────────────────────────The claim that the references in the article support the use of The White Bird as the WP:Commonname is demonstrably inaccurate; the name "The White Bird" only appears in American sources, not English-language sources, as indicated above. To clear up an issue, when a source name was inadvertently changed, it was due to the typical sweep of the text, with a copy/paste function activated. I note that the change was reverted, but rest assured, that no malicious intent was involved. Let's look at the reference sources, beyond the usual cursory overview:

  • Charles and Francois Godspeed, in their article, "The Secret of the White Bird", state: "It was l'Oiseau Blanc, the 'White Bird' or 'White Dove' ... (note the translation).
  • Clément-Pascal Meunier in "Nungesser & Coli Disappear Aboard The White Bird" at Tighar describes it as "l'Oiseau Blanc."
  • "Project Midnight Ghost" , has the statement: "... their biplane l’Oiseau Blanc (the White Bird)".
  • John Aloysius Farrell's article, "Unraveling the mystery of White Bird's flight." Boston Globe, "..in the hope of discovering some trace of the aircraft called l'Oiseau Blanc – The White Bird."
  • Gunnar Hansen's article, "The Unfinished Flight of the White Bird", states, "They personally oversaw the construction of l’Oiseau Blanc (the White Bird)." (although The White Bird does also appear in the body of the text).
  • Clive Cussler's "White Bird" in NUMA, states, "After takeoff, the L’Oiseau blanc (the White Bird) ..."
  • The following authors listed in the Bibliography also use "L’Oiseau Blanc":
  1. A. Scott Berg, Lindbergh, 1999.
  2. Joe Jackson, Atlantic Fever: Lindbergh, His Competitors, and the Race to Cross the Atlantic , 2012.
  3. Kenneth McDonaugh, Atlantic Wings 1919–1939: The Conquest of the North Atlantic by Aeroplane, 1966
  4. Leonard Mosley, Lindbergh: A Biography, 2000.
  5. Joshua Stoff, Transatlantic Flight: A Picture History, 1873–1939, 2000.
  6. Gavin Will, The Big Hop: The North Atlantic Air Race, 2008.
  7. Robert Wohl, The Spectacle of Flight: Aviation and the Western Imagination, 1920-1950, 2007.

Therefore, the overwhelming majority of reference sources do not support the supposition that "The White Bird" meets the Wiki standard of a "common name."FWiW Bzuk (talk) 00:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

  • Support - I've never heard of it being called "The White Bird" except as a translation of the proper, French name. - The Bushranger One ping only 15:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Additional support comes in the form of articles that deal with the mystery of Nungesser and Coli's disappearance: "Charles Lindbergh Won the Prize, but Did His Rival Get There First?" by Sebastian Moffett, Wall Street Journal and French launch bid to rewrite history books with claim that Lindbergh was NOT first to fly across the Atlantic" at the Daily Mail. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:12, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Support - Had a look through my books and could only find one mention of this flight (there may be more), the French form was used. A non-comprehensive search of the Flightglobal archive, names the aircraft in French at the time of disappearance and in English a week later. Clicking on the interwiki links in the sidebar indicates that the majority of languages use the French form, Japanese I can't tell, Russian and Ukrainian when translated gives 'white bird', I would guess that a French article title there would not be understood at all.
It appears to be the practise in other language articles not to translate the original actual name of individual vehicles from other countries for article titles, in some cases they don't even translate it in the lead. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:19, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per Bzuk's sources. English translation fails to carry the playful Bird/Airplane double meaning of oiseau. Binksternet (talk) 18:06, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Support - French subject, French name. The English translation should of course be mentioned and should also be a redirect link to the article. - Ahunt (talk) 01:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
  • What about English Wikipedia, English name, per WP:UE? I checked the books Bzuk listed above, or at least the ones available online:
Author Title White Bird L’Oiseau Blanc
[http://www.amazon.com/Lindbergh-A-Scott-Berg/dp/0425170411/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 A, Scott Berg] Lindberg 2 1
[http://www.amazon.com/Atlantic-Fever-Lindbergh-Competitors-Cross/dp/0374106754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8 Joe Jackson] Atlantic Fever 29 12
[http://www.amazon.com/Lindbergh-Biography-Transportation-Leonard-Mosley/dp/0486409643/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8 Leonard Mosley] Lindberg 2 1
[http://www.amazon.com/Transatlantic-Flight-Picture-1873-1939-Transportation/dp/0486407276/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8 Joshua Stoff] Transatlantic Flight 1 1
Robert Wohl The Spectacle of Flight 1 1
Total 35 16
Kauffner (talk) 11:59, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
You have cherry-picked your sources for this table. Bzuk's many thousands of references tell a different story. We don't "use English" for a vehicle/ship/aircraft that has been christened with a foreign name. For instance, we don't move SS Rex to SS King, nor do we move Ader Avion III to Ader Aircraft III. This article should be named the original French name. Binksternet (talk) 12:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
The actual table (and every other reference source quoted) reveals that the authors/historians/editors use L'Oiseau Blanc as the actual or common name and "The White Bird" as the translated name; what am I missing? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 15:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
If L'Oiseau Blanc was the English language common name, this name would used without translation on first reference. Kauffner (talk) 17:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Although the typical editorial standard, it is not entirely consistent in all sources, but certainly is the predominate standard. Many sources do not even qualify the name by any other version other than L'Osieau Blanc. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 17:26, 26 December 2012 (UTC) We are now getting into WP:Stick territory. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 17:41, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Result

The move request has achieved consensus and the article has been moved. IMHO, the WP:UE argument does not win out here. There are many articles on foreign subjects which are housed under their foreign titles. The provision of a translation in the lede suffices. Mjroots (talk) 19:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Witnesses[edit]

A lengthy list of documented reports in May 1927 of an aircraft in the air over Newfoundland exists in the library of Memorial University, St. John's, Newfoundland. The accounts substantially do not vary and provide a telling account of what may have been Nungesser and Coli's last moments. The droning engine sound alerted the observers to try to ascertain the location of the aircraft. What is especially revealing is that no aircraft had existed on the island in 1927, nor were there any overflights of Newfoundland. The many reports were so consistent that newspapers carried the story the next day without actually making the connection to the Nungesser and Coli flight. The pair were obscured in heavy fog and clouds and by the sound of the engine, were circling, probably lost or attempting to find a break in the overcast. Gradually, the sounds faded on this "mystery" aircraft. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC).

Focus[edit]

The most critical issue involved in this article is that it is not about the aircraft but is substantially an account of the fated transatlantic attempt. There is possibly enough information to create a second article on the aircraft but the typical "Design-development-operational history-specifications" format really doesn't work here. FWiW FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2012 (UTC).

The aircraft and its attempt are completely intertwined. The aircraft was designed specifically for the attempt, and had exactly one famous flight. That said, if you would like to expand the design/development/specs section of the article, that would be welcome and appreciated. --Elonka 03:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
I concur, as it was difficult to separate the transatlantic flight from a more technical account. Please take a look at the article now, as I have tried to address some of the issues that were raised above. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 03:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC).
That's an excellent addition, thanks! I'd like to adjust the wording a bit here and there, but will wait until you're done before I go in. The article's definitely stronger now... Maybe getting up to FA level? --Elonka 04:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
The graphic layout is not really complete as a scale drawing of the Levasseur PL.8 would typically be inserted in the specifications section, but for now, the photo may suffice. Some wordsmithing still needs to take place and one other note may be to indicate that the last human contact on the flight, was French Air Force Captain Venson, one of four airmen who escorted Nungesser and Coli to the French coast at Étretat. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 04:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC).
  • Still of the opinion that a separate article on the LP.8 should be created, as this article is not set out as a more usual aircraft type article we cant really mention the other LP.8. to confuse and mislead Levasseur PL.8 redirects here. This would then be a history of the White Bird and we would not need the specification and operator section that would be normal for a type article. MilborneOne (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Another alternative is to rename the article as the Levasseur PL.8 (bearing in mind the ongoing discussion about name change that appears on this talk page) as the "split" of this article would jeopardize its status as a GA article. Using the example of The Spirit of St. Louis, there is precedence for this type of article although, technically, that article should have been titled the Ryan NYP "The Spirit of St. Louis" as it was, like the Levasseur PL.8, a "one-off". FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC).

I think my main point is that another PL.8 was built other than the White Bird, which is why I think it needs a "aircraft type" article. I dont have a problem with this being an article on one specific aircraft but it wouldnt need some of the technical content if a separate PL.8 article was created. MilborneOne (talk) 17:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Tell me more, I was of the notion that the PL.8 was a single prototype. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 18:26, 15 December 2012 (UTC). Could this have been the Levasseur PL. 10/ 101 derivative? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 18:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC).
I dont have much A second PL.8 with a 500hp Hispano-Suiza engine was flown in 1928. Intended as a long-range record breaker but modified as a postal machine, it was destroyed in a taxiing accident in December 1929.. MilborneOne (talk) 18:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Bit more PL.8-02 was registered F-AJKP registered to Cie Generale Aeropostale and based at Dakar, Hit pothole on landing Istres 20 December 1929, badly damaged and not repaired (pilot Henry Delaunay). MilborneOne (talk) 18:59, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Feel free to add that to the article. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC). FYI "my take". FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Since the article has been "Americanized" again, my compromise is to create a new Levasseur PL.8 article and leave this one as it is, as there is no use trying to change what is a particular bent. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC).

I think we're all in agreement that having a separate Levasseur PL.8 article is a good idea. --Elonka 17:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
The problem is that Levasseur PL.8 article links right back to this article, and needs an admin to re-assign it. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 17:11, 18 December 2012 (UTC).
You can't just move it to Levasseur PL.8? I guess you could just create the article directly at that location. Or if you really want to move it, then go to the Levasseur redirect and add the following to the top of the page: {{db-move|1=User:Bzuk/Sandbox/New_Article_start_1|2=deleting redirect so a separate article can be created. See [[Talk:The White Bird#Focus]] for discussion}}. Then an admin will be along shortly to delete the redirect to make room for the move. --Elonka 17:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Operator/Owner[edit]

I changed the infobox to use the more appropriate "career" box rather than the "type" and was looking at adding the owner field. It appears from the photographs that the aircraft was not civil registered but with a big anchor on the rudder was probably something to do with the French Navy. Anybody have a reliable reference on who actually owned it, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 19:55, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can remember from readings for the writing of the FA French article, I think that the owner was Levasseur himself or Nungesser and Coli but not the French Navy. The PL.4 is a Navy plane and the PL.8 directly derives from it, so it may be the cause for the anchor and the roundels on the wings. I'll take a look tonight. Martin // discuter 17:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I could not find the answer in the documents I used for the FA French article still in my possessions but I believe that the owner was Levasseur and no one else. Nungesser and Coli were lacking money and they get the support of Levasseur, meaning, I believe, that he built a plane specifically for them. Anyway, I am absolutely certain the Navy does not have anything to do with it. Martin // discuter 12:00, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that, I presume then that as a private aircraft it should have been civil registered, not sure if it was actually legal to fly around even in 1927 without a registration, the other PL.8 was civil-registered. MilborneOne (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
According to Bernard Decré, organizer of the research campaign near Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon since 2009, the anchors and roundels have been granted by the French Navy, for the national pride and glory: "Sous les ailes, les cocardes tricolores accordées par la marine portent l'espérance de toute une nation" (Under the wings, the tricolor roundels granted by the Navy carry the hope of a whole nation"), in Decré, Bernard and Mongaillard, Vincent, L'Oiseau blanc, l'enquête vérité, 2014, Paris, Arthaud, pp. 28. Martin // discuter 12:28, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Speculation over Lindbergh's flight[edit]

Charles Lindbergh had greatly invested in the effort to fly the Atlantic, and although capturing the Orteig Prize may have been the main incentive for his flight, he likely would have continued even if the transatlantic flight of L'Oiseau Blanc had been successful. Lindbergh would have then been able to make the claim that his solo flight was notable, although at the time, many observers saw his flight as being inherently ill-prepared if not dangerous. Later historians have considered the use of multi-engine, crewed transport aircraft as much more important to aviation technology and progress than the feat of a purpose-built, long distance racer flying the Atlantic without state-of-the-art safety and navigation systems. The sheer folly of the Orteig and Dole Race competitors who were equipped with similar designs and preparation with their resultant fatalities, actually set aeronautics behind, as public confidence in flying was severely undermined. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:09, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

It is important to note that Nungesser and Coli were not officially registered as competitors for the Orteig prize. So, even if they had succeeded, Lindbergh would have been the Prize's winner. Martin // discuter 12:12, 14 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin' (talkcontribs)

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