Talk:List of states with limited recognition

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Former featured list List of states with limited recognition is a former featured list. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page and why it was removed. If it has improved again to featured list standard, you may renominate the article to become a featured list.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
February 29, 2008 Peer review Reviewed
March 10, 2008 Featured list candidate Promoted
February 13, 2011 Featured list removal candidate Demoted
Current status: Former featured list


Excluided Entities[edit]

This section has multiple issues I would like to discuss. A part of this section claims that entities like the Donetsk People's Republic are simply rebel groups that control territory and declare independence,however there are no sources for this claim next to this piece or anywhere at all.Could anyone please find a source for this claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.106.142.1 (talk) 12:18, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Some polities, like the DPR and LPR for example, can be shown through various sources which collectively show that they meet the elements of the declarative theory of statehood. However, as of yet no one has shown a source which states that they do in fact meet all of the elements of the theory. Because the wiki rules state that facts cant be synthesized from several combined sources, the statement that they meet the declarative theory of statehood is unsourced and therefore they are not included in the list.XavierGreen (talk) 20:25, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Dropping the 'declarative theory' requirement[edit]

My assertion here is that we should drop the requirement for sources to say that an entity meets "the declarative theory" of sovereignty, and simply require that reliable sources say that an entity is "sovereign". There is no good reason to privilege a particular description/understanding of sovereignty, when the concept itself challenged and complex. This is not to reject the idea that entities require multiple, verifiable, independent sources. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree. There are several entities that fail our criteria that reliable sources might reasonably describe as "sovereign". For example, the US has concepts of tribal sovereignty for its indigenous peoples, and also a concept of state sovereignty (for example, Article 1 Section 26 of the Constitution of Louisiana defines Louisiana as a "sovereign state".) There are doubtless similar situations in other countries. And what about places most often described in other languages? Relying on a specific word is a poor idea in a list like this because it will be systemically biased towards English-speaking countries.
It is far better for us to use the clearest description possible of what we're referring to. There is far less scope to dispute whether the criterion is met than with a word that may be being misunderstood or used with a different meaning. And it's also worth bearing in mind that the declarative theory - unlike the use of the word "sovereign" - is also clearly grounded in international law. I think it is a fair requirement. Kahastok talk 22:14, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
You're correct that I should have asserted that the claim is to be a sovereign state, yes - that's a fair point. With regards to the second point, however, the sovereignty of countries is messy. This is a general encyclopedia, not a legal encyclopedia: national sovereignty is not solely the realm of international law. If (for example) political science scholars were to frequently describe an entity as a sovereign state, without explicitly using the declarative theory, I do think that should be sufficient. I think it's important to say that I'm not necessarily referring to any sources here - we'd want material which is stronger than regular news reporting. But I don't see why we're prioritizing one particular framing of sovereignty here.--Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 08:17, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Just to move this outside a hypothetical debate. Super Nintendo Chalmers, do you have a (current) example where independent reliable sources describe an entity as a sovereign state (as in country not as in US state of course), where that same state did not declare itself independent (or something similar). If not, we may be discussing a non-existing problem. Arnoutf (talk) 08:34, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
There are various commonwealth realms which have never declared themselves to be independent, yet consider themselves to be sovereign states with international personality, these include Canada and Australia.XavierGreen (talk) 17:15, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
The words "sovereign state" are used in the Louisiana constitution. Any time we're dealing with requiring specific words or phrases, we're asking for trouble because we're basically preventing foreign language sources and inviting bad additions because the words or phrases have multiple meanings.
While I accept we are not a legal encyclopædia, the concept of sovereignty is inherently - and solely - a question of law. You say, what about political scientists: if they're referring to sovereignty then they are making a legal judgement. Also worth remembering that we don't prioritise the declarative theory to the exclusion of all others - in fact there are only three claimed states here whose inclusion relies on it.
The bar for inclusion should be high. Being a state is A Very Big Deal. The standard we have is high, yes, but it's not unreasonably so. In a general sense, this is expressed by WP:WEIGHT - if a state isn't recognised by any UN member state, its sovereignty is already a minority view. Once we then can't find a legal opinion that it's sovereign, we're getting pretty close to the third point, where "a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it". Kahastok talk 17:59, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Aside from the commonwealth realms (which easily satisfy the constitutive theory), the only polity I am aware of in recent times which claimed sovereignty but did not expressly declare independence was the Republic of Tatarstan, it declared itself sovereign in 1990. It asserted itself internationally as a sovereign state, to my knowledged was not afforded recognition by any country, and then in 1994 signed a treaty with Russia which had the effect of surrendering itself to defacto Russian administration before recognizing itself as dejure part of Russia in 2002. Its possible some of the polities involved in the Bosnian war did the same, but I am not familiar enough with them to say so for sure.XavierGreen (talk) 19:48, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
So what? We don't require a declaration of independence for this criterion even under the current rule, so long as it can be reliably sourced that the putative state meets the declarative theory (citing, for example, Montevideo). The proposition is that if a suitably reliable source has referred to somewhere as "sovereign" or as a "sovereign state", that should be enough. Kahastok talk 20:01, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

People's Republic of China[edit]

No-one of the links provided prove that there are UN members not recognizing the People's Republic of China. The links only prove that the PRC does not want diplomatic relations with those who recognize the ROC. The PRC should be deleted of the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.111.252 (talk) 11:06, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

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