Talk:Lord-lieutenant

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Appointed?

How are Lord Lientenants appointed?

The article says, Section 218 of the Local Government Act 1972 that established the new system stated: "Her Majesty shall appoint a lord-lieutenant for each county in England and Wales and for Greater London..." --DThomsen8 (talk) 15:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Correct plural

Surely the plural of Lord Lieutenant should be Lords Lieutenant not Lord Lieutenants? Lincolnite 22:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, its Lord-Lieutenants, see: Department for Constitutional Affairs [1] or "The official website of the British monarchy" [2] Lozleader 12:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note that "Lieutenant" is the original part of the name, and "Lord" seems to have been added on at the front almost by accident. Morwen - Talk 21:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not convinced by Lozleader's answer. The first reference is inconsistent and uses both Lord Lieutenants and Lords Lieutenant, with and without a hyphen, seemingly interchangeably. Furthermore, the page itself is no longer maintained and is kept for archive purposes only. The second reference no longer exists so I can't check it. The Wikipedia entry for Lord Lieutenant of Ireland states that the plural is Lords Lieutenant. This is discussed on that article's Talk page (Talk:Lord Lieutenant of Ireland) where it is said that the style guides used by the Times and the Guardian newspapers disagree on this matter. Either way, it would be nice to have consistency between the articles. 83.104.249.240 (talk) 01:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry you're not conviced. I assure you the reference worked two years ago! Hadn't spottted the inconsistency in the dca site. The royal site seems to be [3] now.

The point is in the legislation since 1972 "Lord-Lieutenants" is invariably used, "Lords-Lieutenant" never is, eg in:

Local government Act 1972 (c.70)
The Lord-Lieutenants Order 1973 (S.I. 1973/1754)
The Lord-Lieutenants Order 1975 (S.I. 1975/428)
The Northern Ireland (Lieutenancy) Order 1975 (S.I. 1975/156)
Reserve Forces Act 1980 (c.9)
Reserve Forces Act 1996 (c.14)
Lord-Lieutenants (Scotland) Order 1996
The Local Government Changes for England (Lord-Lieutenants and Sheriffs) Order 1997 (S.I. 1997/1992)
The Preserved Counties (Amendment to Boundaries) (Wales) Order 2003 (S.I. 2003/974 (W.133)) (no hyphen)

This report from July of this year uses "Lord-Lieutenants" 43 times and "Lords-Lieutenants" 0 times

House of Commons Justice Committee - Public Appointments: Lord-Lieutenants and High Sheriffs

A search of the London Gazette archives for January 1, 1974 to December 31, 2007 gives 170 hits for lord-lieutenants or lord lieutenants and 0 for lords-lieutenant or lords lieutenant. The last use of "lords lieutenant" was in 1933. It would be fair to say that back in the pre 1974 /5 era that "lords lieutenant" or "lord lieutenants" were both in use, (and both unofficially the proper title was "h.m. lieutenant for the county of X".Lozleader (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it should be "lords lieutenant" and here are some sources:

Christine Peters, The Lords Lieutenant and High Sheriffs of Oxfordshire (Perpetua Press, 1995)
Hansard
Bucks CC
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-lord-lieutenants-of-ireland Answers.com]
AllExperts
Institute of Historical Research
Encyclopaedia.com

Mooretwin (talk) 14:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I never said people didn't say "lords-lieutenant". Let's face it *sounds* right. But in the legislation that creates the office it is invariably lord-lieutenants. So that has to be the correct plural, surely.

The answers.com and allexperts references don't count because they are just mirrors of Wikipedia.

The other ones obviously show that there is some confusion. It might be valuable to add a "Plural" section to the raticle and note that it is a common error to say ords lieutenant, and usse some of these refs?

Lozleader (talk) 18:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just to show the confusion: this [4] uses "Lords-Lieutenants" (double plural) in the title to be on the safe side! (Although it actually has an "Alphabetical list of Lord-Lieutenants" :-) Lozleader (talk) 18:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think grammatically, lords lieutenant has to be right, and it is possible that the legislation is grammatically wrong. There's also the question of the hyphen to decide! Mooretwin (talk) 19:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the legislation is gramatically wrong and legally correct??? Sheesh. The hyphen was introduced in the seventies. The "lord" bit was never officially a part before that. That's actually an interesting point: it may make lord-lieutenant into a single (compound) word and might explain the "s" at the end. I know what you mean about the grammar (cup of teas and all that).

The Times does what the Association of Lord-Lieutenants tell it to: lord-lieutenant should be hyphenated, according to the Association of Lord-Lieutenants (note this plural, not lords-lieutenant); use l/c in general use, but the Lord-Lieutenant for Gloucestershire etc (when specific) [5] Not surprisngly the Nottinghamshire Lieutenacy page agrees: Since 1st April 1974, he is officially appointed as “Her Majesty’s Lord-Lieutenant of ... and in the County of ...“although less formally known as the “Lord Lieutenant of." Prior to that date, he was officially appointed as “Her Majesty’s Lieutenant of and in etc,” and the title Lord Lieutenant (unhyphenated) was a mere colloquialism. The title is now hyphenated and the plural is “Lord-Lieutenants.” [6]

Meanwhile, the anti-establishment Guardian [7] insists on lord lieutenant no hyphen, plural lords lieutenant

P.68 of this book is interesting [8] An introduction to English morphology By Andrew Carstairs-McCarthy. Apparently it depends if you think they are endocentric words with their heads on the left or lexicalised phrases. He doesn't say which is correct: seems to be a matter of choice!

Conclusion? In official use the hyphen is part of the title now(it is used on the letters patent appointing them to the office), but it wasn't always. The plural in officialdom is lord-lieutenants, but lords-lieutenant is in use in real life, too. But there is no hard or fast rule for forming the plural, gramatically... hopefully everyone is right. If we can reference it correctly it might make a good section for the article!

As a PS none of the above applies to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland who never had a hyphen. Since there was only one at a time, the plural would be hard to ascertain!!! Lozleader (talk) 20:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good work. Mooretwin (talk) 22:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was once told by D.H.B. Chesshyre, Clarenceux King of Arms, that the plural was in fact lords lieutenants.--Oxonian2006 (talk) 18:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The proper gramatical plural in English would be Lords-Lieutenant, similar to the plural for Governors-General. Just because some legislation shows it otherwise, that doesn't always mean it's so. For example, a recent study showed that about 25% of words used in Canadian legislation and books used American spelling, instead of the proper Canadian English. This happens invariably because some people don't know the proper version to use. The same would make sense for Lords-Lieutenant, which I'm willing to bet doesn't enter the public lexicon often. Fry1989 (talk) 21:10, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I come late to the argument but as the official web site of the British monarchy, the British government and the Association of Lord-Lieutenants all use the hyphenated form and Lord-Lieutenants for the plural I thought that would be pretty definitive Cannonmc (talk) 11:28, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I meant to add that Wikipedia is not consistent, even this article uses two versions and it would be almost impossible to correct all the links as most of them seem to use Lord Lieutenant rather than Lord-Lieutenant Cannonmc (talk) 11:31, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Schedules to Lord-Lieutenants (Scotland) Order 1996

I note that The Lord-Lieutenants (Scotland) Order 1996, OPSI website, referenced in the article, seems not to include the schedules to the order, and it is those schedules which would define the lieutenancy areas.
Laurel Bush (talk) 14:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They are there if you click on "continue" at the bottom of the page you will find Schedule 1 that defines the areas and Schedule 2 that deals with the continuance in office of a number of deputy lieutenants. Lozleader (talk) 15:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers
Laurel Bush (talk) 10:53, 18 April 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Upper Canada / John Graves Simcoe / Bush league aristocracy

Years ago I read that Lord Simcoe (as colonial governor) tried to establish an aristocracy in British North America. The title Lord Lieutenant was issued to members of the province's Legislative Council (upper house). Can't seem to find this anywhere - assistance appreciated in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.233.33 (talk) 15:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Project template ?

Wikipedia Project template for this article, the list of Lord Lieutenants, and for Custos rotulorum and the list for Custos rotulorum was a puzzle for me, and American (Anglophile, but still...), but I have decided that the Royalty template here can be applied to all of those articles. The Lord Lieutenants are appointed by the Sovereign, and the Custos rotulorum were in many cases appointed by the Sovereign.

Anyone who decided differently, please say why and make the change. Politics does not appear to be an issue, but perhaps I am wrong about that. --DThomsen8 (talk) 16:01, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No Hyphens!

Will anyone editing this article please keep in mind that there is never a hyphen in "Lord Lieutenant"? Thankyou! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.163.237.43 (talk) 07:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is always a hyphen in Lord-Lieutenant MarkMaghull (talk) 10:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whadjyamean, no hyphens? These geezers act on behalf of the Queen and she can call them what she likes. Hyphens rule - OK? --Damorbel (talk) 08:28, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but all my reliable references - the Queen, the Prime Minister, the Lord Chancellor, my Lord-Lieutenant and the Association of Lord-Lieutenants - insist that there is always a hyphen Cannonmc (talk) 11:34, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Telegraph here quotes the Lord Chamberlain and doesn't use a hyphen :) It also underlines that it's now Lord Lieutenants. Btw, we should put the pronunciation in the first sentence - to indicate it's "left-tenant". No? Malick78 (talk) 09:30, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Lieutenancies Act 1997 says "A lord-lieutenant shall be appointed by Her Majesty for each county in England". Hyphen, no capitals. William Avery (talk) 10:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Precedence

I looked up The Order of Precedence in England & Wales, but I can't see what precedence Lords Lieutenant hold. If I had to guess i'd would assume it would be the same as the monarch. If someone knows this it would be a useful addition to the article. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 11:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They would appear to be first in precedence in the area they represent according to http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/professions/local-government/order-of-precedence.aspx just one county as an example west sussex says Modern precedence is defined by a Royal Warrant of 1904, as amplified by a Home Office Memorandum of 1928 whereby the High Sheriff takes precedence in the county immediately after the Lord-Lieutenant except where precedence is deferred to a Lord Mayor, Mayor or Chairman of the local authority when they are undertaking municipal business in their own borough or district. http://www.westsussex.gov.uk/your_council/lieutenancy_civic_and/high_sheriff.aspx MilborneOne (talk) 12:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Rename page Lord-lieutenant

In the following sources, the office of Lord-lieutenant is hyphenated. I propose that this page and relevant linked pages (specifically the lord-lieutenants pages for each county) should be moved to be hyphenated. I would like to gather a consensus before carrying out the move.

iComputer SaysNo 21:15, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree, it should be hyphenated MarkMaghull (talk) 10:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another plural issue

The first sentence of the England and Wales section seems to lose its way: "Lieutenants were first appointed to a number of English counties by King Henry VIII in the 1540s, when the military functions of the sheriff were handed over to him." It appears that "him" refers here to each lieutenant not to the king, though the king is the only singular antecedent in the sentence. The section goes on in the singular - can one of the page authors clear up the confusing syntax? Billfalls (talk) 04:53, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lowercase title

The Manual of Style is quite clear - titles of offices, in the general sense, are written in lowercase on Wikipedia. Mauls (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 July 2019

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. There is clear consensus for the change in capitalization, and there is some support, and no specific objection, for the hyphenation. bd2412 T 02:23, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lord Lieutenant → Lord-lieutenant – Wikipedia Manual of Style states that names of positions, which this is should be written in lowercase. All official sources use a hyphen for the name, this was previously discussed for a previous move and no discussion was given to to support the move to a non-hyphenated form. Mauls (talk) 15:12, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. What the nomination says is incorrect. A title is in general a proper name, not a common noun. See for example Dalai Lama, President of the United States etc. Now it's true that some titles are also common nouns which may be rendered without caps... for example "prime minister", "president", "mayor" etc. But this is not one of them - Collins dictionary, for example, capitalises this term, while it does not capitalise "mayor". Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 15:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

”President of the United States” is capitalized because “president” is the first letter of the title and “United States” is a country. Dalai Lama is used as a name for a person, I think, so those are both unique situations. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 18:45, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to be objecting to the policy, not saying this is not covered by the policy. If you object to the policy, you should request a change to the Wikipedia Manual of Style. Whilst it applies, articles should abide by it. Furthermore, your two examples are entirely different to this. They are akin to "Lord Lieutenant of Cumberland". This is not an article about a specific lord-lieutenant, it is an article about the type of position. Like "president", or "mayor"... a lord-lieutenant as opposed to the Lord Lieutenant of x. Mauls (talk) 18:54, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Hyphonate - yes. Lower case - yes. A lord-lieutenant is a common noun in this context. See s1(1) of [9], for a not insignificant example of its use. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support lowercase: If I understand correctly, "Lord Lieutenant of Fife" or "Lord Lieutenant of Ireland" is a complete formal title (like "King of France") and can be used as a proper noun (assuming there is only one of those at any given time and it is not being used in the plural), but "Lord Lieutenant" seems to be just a rank or general job title and thus should use lowercase. No opinion about the hyphen. See Category:Gubernatorial titles. It contains Governor-general and Governor-in-chief and Captain-major and Chief commissioner (incomplete titles), but Governor-General of Finland (a complete title). Similarly, see Grand duke and Grand prince (incomplete titles). —BarrelProof (talk) 04:48, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Generic job title. BarrelProof is entirely correct. A unique post held by one individual at a time is a proper name, but this is not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:55, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support lowercase MOS:JOBTITLES certainly applies here. The question is then whether or not we include the hyphen (lord-lieutenant vs. lord-lieutenant). I tried a Google Ngram search but I don't trust the results, as it tries to parse "lord-lieutenant" as "lord - lieutenant". Standard Google searches seem to lump the two together. The previous post you mention shows three sources that use the hyphen, but that can't be an exhaustive list of "official sources". I'm personally fine with the hyphen, but I just think that question deserves a little more investigation. CThomas³ (talk) 20:40, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Apolitical?

<quote>As the sovereign's representative in his or her county, a lord-lieutenant remains non-political and may not hold office in any political party. </quote>

But of course this hasn't always been true. Early in the last century, there were definitely Lord-lieutenants who held political office during their tenure - the 8th and 9th dukes of Devonshire, for instance. When did this change? john k (talk) 04:50, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Possible copyright issue?

Would someone gifted at copyright issues please have a look at the section Duties, as the bullet points and subsequent sentence seem to be very similar to the corresponding passage on this external website? Thank you! OJH (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This piece of information had been on Wikipedia at least since 2006 (see: Special:Permalink/60752458#Present-day), so it is very likely that the lieutenancy's site has copyright issues, not Wikipedia. The section Scotland is also heavily copied to Scottish lieutenancies' official sites, rendering them unreliable sources. ネイ (talk) 02:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]