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New info on ninja. Also, page apparently needs some cleanup.
I just read the TvTropes page on ninja. The TvTropes page linked me to another article, this one on Kung Fu Magazine. The latter article, written by some guy named Anthony Cummins, claims to have debunked some of the biggest myths concerning ninjas today, and also provided examples of possible Chinese influence. Now I'm not an expert on ninjas, so can someone read the above Kung Fu Magazine article and tell me is it accurate?
Also, this Wikipedia page on ninja needs some cleanup. Look at the citations. About 80% of them came from Osprey Publishing, rather than multiple different sources, as this Cracked article pointed out.
By the way, some people seem to have confusion over the term "ninja", and uses it to describe both ancient Japanese ninja and modern day ninjas. I think there should be a distinction between the two. Ninja describe a phenomenon during feudal Japan, so modern day ninjas should be called "neo-ninjas" rather than "ninjas". This is similar to the word "Nazi" being used to describe a phenomenon during World War II, and modern day Nazis being called "neo-Nazis". 126.96.36.199 (talk) 06:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
There needs to be a Controversy section added to acknowledge that many sources believe that ninjas are a myth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:646:101:CB1F:5C3F:6A99:9A5D:79FB (talk) 16:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
- "Now I'm not an expert on ninjas, so can someone read the above Kung Fu Magazine article and tell me is it accurate?"
- I wouldn't say that I'm an expert either, but I am somewhat informed, so...
- While that article doesn't seem to qualify as a Reliable Source, for Wikipedia... Yeah, it's pretty much completely correct.
- "Also, this Wikipedia page on ninja needs some cleanup. Look at the citations. About 80% of them came from Osprey Publishing, rather than multiple different sources, as this Cracked article pointed out."
- Oh, I couldn't agree more! I find most of the sources to be rather dubious, to be honest.
- "By the way, some people seem to have confusion over the term "ninja", and uses it to describe both ancient Japanese ninja and modern day ninjas. I think there should be a distinction between the two. Ninja describe a phenomenon during feudal Japan, so modern day ninjas should be called "neo-ninjas" rather than "ninjas"."
- While I fully agree with what you are saying, there would be some problems with using such terminology in the Wikipedia article on ninjas, given that Wikipedia is supposed to use common terminology, not promote the use of new terminology (...though such promotion can be done outside of Wikipedia and I would encourage it). Still, I agree that the article should make it clear when it is talking about genuine, historical, ninja and when it's talking about modern day "ninja".--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 14:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- You're right, Wikipedia should not come up with new terms. However, I'm not the one who came up with the term "neo-ninja", I read it on another website discussing ninjas. Plus, I think "neo-ninja" is an okay term. Here's the definition of "neo" from The Free Dictionary: "neo - new; recent (e.g. neolithic), new and different from the original (e.g. neoimpressionism)". Finally, many Wikipedia articles use "neo-": neo-Nazism, neo-confucianism, neosocialism, etc.
- That bullshido.org uses neoninja isn't really relevant, as it's just one site. Just because the term is used by a rare few individuals and/or groups, doesn't make it a notable term. While neo- does have a clear meaning and the meaning of the term neo-ninja would thus be instantly recognizable and understood, that's beside the point.
- Furthermore, the fact that Wikipedia articles use terms like neo-Nazism, neo-confucianism and neosocialism is completely irrelevant, as those are already very well established terms.
- I'd like to agree with you, as I'd be in favour of using neo-ninja in the article, but your arguments don't quite work.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 09:21, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Off Shoot of Old Chinese Tradition
When a society breaks down and civil wars ensue, there are always mercenaries. In the West, they became brigandeers and contardores under a rogue captain. In China and Japan, they became retainer soldiers under a warlord.
During the Warring State period in China near the end of the Zhou Dynasty, warlords acquired thousands of mercenary retainers as "house guests". Each guest brought a special skill to the service for hire. No one with any skill was refused admittance. Skills in fighting, killing, spying, stealing, lying, and plotting are especially valued. A haven for all sorts of criminals and undesirables. Because of the mishmash riffraff collections, personal loyalty to the warlord was especially important. When a warlord is defeated, it was the duty of every retainer to avenge him. The unemployed retainers became homeless assassins. The requirement for achieving their goal is "patience" and "suffering". Some endeaverd years of planning and some endured years of disguise to avenge their lord. The longer the patience and the deeper the suffereing, the greater the glory. They became folkheros and remained popular even after Qin Dynasty conquered all warring states and unified China. With a centralized government, these mercenaries soldiers went underground and regrouped into "black societies" and "houses". Some of them hired themselves out as bodyguards, especially as escorts for rich people or for transporting valuable cargo. They founded many schools of martial arts all over China. The more famous ones are Shaolin in northern China and Wudan in southern China, fists in the south and kicks in the north. Every Chinese kid dreamed of running away from home to join them.
Not surprising, when Japan entered the Warring period, the warlords adopted the Chinese mercenary retainer system. As each warlord is defeated, the unemployed mercenaries became wandering raffians plaguing the society. Some found employment as assassins and spies, others became thieves and robbers. They not only adopted the same training and weaponary, they also adopted the same Chinese name, Patient Suffering Ones, "Ninja" in Japanese. However, instead of runniing away to join them, the Japanese created Ninja Amusement Parks. What a clever idea!
The in popular culture section has too colorful language, and seems to subjectively read like a conclusion of an essay. It seems to create a subjective conclusion and lots of unsourced POV. What do you all think? --Mr. Guye (talk) 21:33, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Tactical clarification request...
The first sentence in the final paragraph of ==Tactics==, beginning "Tactics martial arts ninja in sabotage and assassination was..." currently seems somewhat jumbled. (Possibly another ninja distraction tactic? ;-) 188.8.131.52 (talk) 17:04, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Portrait of Oda Nobunaga, by Jesuit painter Giovanni Niccolo, 1583–1590.
Hello apologies have never commented on a page before and am definitely not an expert but I am surprised by labelling of the Portrait of Oda Nobunaga, by Jesuit painter Giovanni Niccolo, 1583–1590. It looks like a 19th/early 20th century photo. Is this definitely a 16th century painting? Nat40 (talk) 16:13, 12 October 2016 (UTC)