Talk:Orpheus in the Underworld

reception?

any idea on how this was received when it first came out?

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I have taken out the spoiler tag as I don't think it is appropriate here - or really with any opera plot. This is an operetta not a thriller and the predictability of the plot is part of the humour. Everybody knows the story - that's the starting point of the work.

Kleinzach 11:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you think it's possible to add further information on this? It has two versions by Offenbach himself (a two act and a four act), a complete rearranging by Hammer and Park (or something like that) that swaps around songs with abandon tfrom all of Offenbach, and numerous others. Indeed, even the names of the songs, unless we give them in French, are going to be non-standard: because there IS no standard. What to do? Adam Cuerden 19:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Adam. I removed the spoiler tag after a discussion on the Opera Project which you have found. I didn't write or compile the article. If you are familiar with this operetta I would think there is great scope for improvement! Best. Kleinzach 19:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was in it once. But it was a home-brew translation and I know there's an awful lot of versions out there. I have the D'Oyly Carte Recording if you think that'd be any help? Just that I'm not quite sure where to cite from, as I'd be working entirely from memory for the history and such things. Adam Cuerden 20:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added a song list, taken from the D'Oyly Carte version, with extensive commentary to try and keep the translation difficulties from causing more problems. I think we can get away with that under Fair Use. Everything in that section NOT in italics is my own work. It's not a standard format, and some things are repeated twice, but I'd like to know whether the sections would be preferred to be combined or whether I should instead edit my comments into the Plot Summary and hope that the song list makes sense to people, or what? Adam Cuerden 21:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the 'Song list' makes the plot' section unnecessary and we should cut the latter? What date is the D'Oyly Carte piece? If you are concerned about copyright, perhaps it would be best to paraphrase and then make a formal reference to it as a source? 'Song list' seems odd in relation to an opera bouffe. Why not 'list of vocal numbers' or simply 'list of numbers'?

We normally give a list of roles, performance history, recordings etc. There is a template on the Project page. An example is Il campiello. - Kleinzach 22:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that since my reference sources concentrate heavily on English music, particularly the Victorian period, I can't really help much with further information. Best I could do is add a few things from memory (e.g. that it nearly failed before a critic lambasted it for ruining the Greek myths, at which point people flocked to it to find out what was going on) and end up with "citation needed" everywhere. Ah, well. The D'Oyly Carte CD is from 1994, but since the ONLY things I took from it were the titles of the songs I believe it's Fair Use. (The commentary was done from memory of a production I was in). I'll combine the two sections into one, with a note as to why it's done that way - it can be reverted if needed. Adam Cuerden 23:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

To do complete articles, reference materials are essential. The standard reference we use is the New Grove Dictionary of Opera. It is online but you have to pay. However there is a lot of other information available for free if you google. Getting recording details, libretti etc is easy.

Fair use basically covers extracts. In this case it might be better to give the original French and make your own translations, borrowing ideas as appropriate from the D'Oyly Carte list, explaining which version you are describing.

Hope that helps. Kleinzach 00:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, of course I need reference maerials to do complete articles. Which is one of the reasons I'm about to leave this article incomplete, get out my four volume Original plays, a few biographies of W.S.Gilbert, Bradley and Final Curtain and go back to W.S. Gilbert. Just thought I could at least get this to a state where it's somewhat useful =) Adam Cuerden 00:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Minor debate

Why, exactly are we eliminating contractions. They may not be necessary, but spelling them out always sounds so awkward.

Also, the a.k.a. may be clumsy, but "the Galop (The Can-Can)" is more so, and inaccurate, as it was only used for the Can-Can later. How about The Infernal Galop (best known as the music of the Can-Can)? Adam Cuerden 04:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam, I think you mean 'gallop'. No? Kleinzach 12:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen it spelt that way when refering to the musical form. Indeed, one of the sources I was looking at for Gilbert (one of his burlesques) specifically mentions the "Galop from Orphée aux enfers". It's Galop Infernale or something like that in French, so Infernal Galop's a reasonable translation, since it has nothing to do with horses. Adam Cuerden 13:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

OK. Fair enough. Grove does give 'infernal galop' as an English phrase. Kleinzach 16:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but that spelling words out, rather than offering up contractions, should be found to be awkward is an idea which I personally find to be quite mind-boggling. The "awkwardness" in this case is entirely with the writer, and has nothing to do with the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.190.1.213 (talk) 04:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Super Mario Land

Could it be mentioned that in Super Mario Land the "immunity star" let play a piece out of the operetta? Think it's quite interesting. --Saippuakauppias ⇄ 17:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The law in France

"the law in France did not allow certain genres of full-length works": I think it was a matter of licensing rather. Certain genres were specifically permitted to the specific theatre in question under the license its management held.--Wetman (talk) 18:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

opéra féerie elements?

...opéra féerie in its revised version: this just can't be correct. What elements of opéra féerie appear in any version whatsoever?--Wetman (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the Wikipedia article is faulty?

The long essay for the EMI Minkowski recording by Adelaide de Place refer repeatedly to opéra féerie, particularly in relation to the dance and spectacle of the second version.

The opening sentence of the opéra féerie article in the 1997 edition of Grove Opera states "a type of French opera or opéra-ballet which has a plot drawn from fairy-tales and/or makes extensive use of elements of magic and the merveilleux". Traubner on page 68 of his book says of the 1874 version, after describing the lavishness of the production "This was an opéra féerie, to be sure..."

By the way, the EMI notes also state the conductor of the premiere of the 1874 was Albert Vizentini.

Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:51, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Andrew Lamb in Grove confirms that the revised version is an opéra féerie. I can't see any problem with this - the subject matter is the supernatural! --Kleinzach 04:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

wikisource

I tried to correct the full 1858 text link to this:

• https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Orph%C3%A9e_aux_Enfers

but there is strange formatting which I don't understand - maybe someone else knows how to do it. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 15:57, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

• PS there appears to be a conflict between what is in the role table in the article, the 1858 vocal score and the wikisource, as regards the original cast. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 16:02, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Indeed. Very remiss of me to have taken on trust the existing table in the article. I ought to have checked it, and now have. Tim riley talk 09:23, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

• re pic of M Marchand in Yon p257 he is down as Petermann in Monsieur Choufleuri, and p276, appeared in the first revival in 1962 where he was "applaudi".Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 16:02, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

• Marchand was Orphée in the 1862 revival. The Almeida book was misleading, I think, about this picture, and the Keck site clears it up.

• Yes, thanks - I meant 1862 of course. I wonder what the music is on the tunic... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:35, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

I linked to the French source. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:09, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Nomenclature etc

During the FA process one editor suggested that the piece should be referred to as an "operetta" rather than an "opéra bouffon" (1858 version) or "opéra féerie" (1874) as the composer prescribed. I'd be against this, not least as there is a danger of confusing the non-specialist reader who could reasonably but wrongly take it that the English term "operetta" and the French "opérette" are synonymous. All Offenbach's comic operas are operettas in the broad English sense of the word, but the composer distinguished between "opérettes", "opéras comiques", "opéras bouffes" and various other categories, and although, in an English article, using the broad-brush term "operettas" for the entire corpus is convenient shorthand, it is best when considering individual works to be as precise and unambiguous as possible, I think. When, as here, necessary to find a single term to cover a work that is both an opéra bouffon and an opéra féerie I think it is safest and clearest to say "comic opera" (which has the additional advantage of making our practice consistent with Wikipedia’s terminology for the Savoy Operas, which are obviously cognate subjects.)

I am happy with this compromise. Part of the problem is that Wikipedia encourages a 'pigeon-holing' mentality and everything has to be carefully categorized, whereas this isn't possible with work of art where rebellious composers avoid the typical labels (try Massenet's names for his operas...) and we have to find something that works best.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 11:19, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Another point that came up during the FA process was a query about the statement that Orpheus in the Underworld is the most popular of Offenbach's works. The sources are clear enough on the point, but just to be on the safe side I double-checked with Operabase and other performance archives and Orphée is definitely the most popular world-wide, though Hoffmann beats it in some places: in New York the Met, for instance, has presented Hoffmann far more often. In London the reverse is true. Tim riley talk 08:16, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Also, performances at small operetta(!) theatres are less well documented that the major opera houses, so there will be many performances of Orphée and Belle Hélène will go under the radar. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 11:19, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

English

Plot diagram 143.44.128.38 (talk) 14:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

This another of the weird and incomprehensible interjections from the Philippines we have already had chez Ravel and Debussy. I suggest that failing any elucidation we treat it with what the late George Brown called "total ignoral". Tim riley talk 14:21, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Atelier Nadar - Fly scene from Offenbach's Orphée aux enfers with Jeanne Granier as Eurydice and Eugène Vauthier as Jupiter, 1887 revival, wide-angle shot.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for December 8, 1022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/1022-12-08. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.2% of all FPs. Currently celebrating his 600^th FP!} 15:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Orpheus in the Underworld is a comic opera composed by Jacques Offenbach with a French-language libretto by Hector Crémieux and Ludovic Halévy. It was first performed as a two-act opéra bouffon at the Théâtre des Bouffes-Parisiens, Paris, in 1858, and was extensively revised and expanded in a four-act opéra féerie version, presented at the Théâtre de la Gaîté in 1874. The plot is a lampoon of the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice in Greek mythology. In this version, Orpheus is not the son of Apollo but a rustic violin teacher. He is glad to be rid of his wife Eurydice when she is abducted by Pluto, the god of the underworld. Orpheus has to be bullied by Public Opinion into trying to rescue Eurydice. The reprehensible conduct of the gods of Olympus in the opera was widely seen as a veiled satire of the court and government of French emperor Napoleon III. This photograph depicts Jeanne Granier as Eurydice and Eugène Vauthier as Jupiter in the form of a fly as part of the 1887 Paris revival of Orpheus in the Underworld.

Photograph credit: Atelier Nadar; restored by Adam Cuerden

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