Talk:P. K. van der Byl

Question on PK's post-Independence role

I saw PK campaign in Zimbabwe for the Mt Pleasant (white) constituency in the House of Assembly in the 1985 election. As stated on the main page, he lost this election. I had thought that he was then appointed to the Zimbabwe Senate for a 5-year term (1985-1990), at one point receiving public criticism for non-attendance, because he had already moved to South Africa. Does anyone know if this is indeed the case?

He also famously spoke in favour of socialism in a debate in Parliament after Independence.

A claim he made in 1985 was that his father, as a South African cabinet minister, was responsible for banning "Ishe Kombarere Afrika", a nationalist hymn which became the national anthem of Zimbabwe after Independence.

2006-06-13.

recent edits

David. I had barely entered the new text before your editing started. That said, you have definitely improved it. Bob BScar23625 12:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that! Edit conflicts can be annoying, I know. Feel free to add more. David | Talk 12:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

more recent edits

David, a lot of improvements there. I am sure I could make use of your services on a professional basis. Leave that one with me. Bob BScar23625 11:01, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

ps I think the Otto von Hapsburg referred to in the article was not the individual that your link related to. My guess is that the one in question (Princess Charlotte's uncle) was the Austrian royal who was banned from Austria but became a right-wing German/Bavarian MEP. I have taken the liberty of removing the link.

pps Sorry, you are right and I was wrong on this. You linked to the correct Otto von Hapsburg. Easy to get confused. Bob BScar23625 16:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

depth of research

David, I am really stunned by the depth and quality of research that has gone into this. You have even identified some of the obscure sources from which I had pinched memorable turns of phrase. Here is a question to test your abilities to the limit. The article contains the following section of text referring to the Lancaster House agreement :

PK greeted the event with amused detachment.

What is the source of that?.

Bob BScar23625 08:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Um, drawn a blank so far. Any clues? David | Talk 11:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, no clues. No matter whether you are talking about a footballer or a political researcher, there is a quantum difference between the capabilities of someone who does the work on an occasional basis for fun and someone who does the work on a full time basis for a living. Bob BScar23625 15:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

events of 1979 - 1980

David, in the opening comments you write "He was a cabinet member from 1968 to 1980". Are you sure that is correct?. My understanding is that the Muzorewa 'internal settlement' government ended on the day that Soames arrived as Governor. PK therefore ceased to be a Minister in 1979, not 1980. The government departments continued under the Governor with the civil servants still in place, but there were no Ministers. Or, that has always been my understanding. Am I right?. Bob BScar23625 15:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I've checked. You're right. Article amended. David | Talk 20:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Recommendations from the peerreviewer script

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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

References

Spelling of kopje/koppie

Does anyone know if the following sentence was actually written or merely said by van der Byl?

"If the battle should wax fiercer, there can be no question of surrender. We shall contest every river, every crossroads, every village, every town and every kopje."

In South African English the Afrikaans spelling koppie is always used, not the Dutch kopje, which would be regarded as archaic. Presumably the situation would be the same in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. Dutch has not been used for many decades. Therefore if the quote was not actually a written one, which of course cannot be changed, I think kopje should be changed to koppie. After all the word koppie has entered the English language, whereas I would not say the Dutch version has.

Booshank. The source of the quote is PK. As you see, the word there is "kopje". Bob BScar23625 06:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

To add to that, the hill just south of the centre of Salisbury/Harare is definitely called 'Kopje'. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 08:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough if this is the case. Zimbabwe must follow a different spelling from SA. Booshank 15:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a great article. I'd never heard of this man before, despite having an interest in Rhodesia. He sounds like a fascinating, yet repellent individual - sort of a cross between Lord Haw Haw and Alan Clark. The article is well balanced, even though the man is clearly a grotesque phoney. Patrick Franzen 20:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your note - you sum PK up very well, based on what I found when I was researching him. Credit should go to Bob for starting the article and providing a base on which the facts could be placed. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 09:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Dan Van der Vat quote

This man's quotes are entertaing, but POV. I think he should be identified as a long-time critic of PK's rather than a neutral observer. Or if you say his views are 'a significant expression of opinion', then why not put in some other 'significant' views with a different bias? Or is only one kind of bias acceptable?

I will wait a while, then put some in, and see what happens.62.3.235.96 (talk) 10:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It is highly insulting, it is POV, but it is relevant because Dan Van der Vat was based in Rhodesia during the UDI period and observed PK closely. We don't endorse the quote, or repudiate it, but we report it as a significant expression of opinion. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 14:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It's quite inappropriate... because it is downright misleading. It might be a quote, but it's part of the article and isn't just opinion—it's an attack. The article shouldn't close with a PK bashing trip. michael ^talk 15:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why it is misleading? It isn't a misquote. It is a direct quote from an obituary, clearly written by a detractor, but then as Fys says it isn't endorsed. I can't see what the excitement is about - unflattering quotes / facts in articles do not represent bias --SandyDancer 16:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Michael. You have previously described yourself as an admirer of Smithy and UDI. Are you also an admirer of PK?. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 14:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Bob, you clearly know what you are talking about &c, however, I hope you aren't asking that question with the implication it is a bad thing to admire PK. I should be more than happy to state that I am an admirer of PK, and Smith and all the rest. What are your views Bob?--Couter-revolutionary 18:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Couter-revolutionary My own view is that racism is a fundamental evil. One encounters people who are admirers of apartheid and its local variants because they have little sense for what it was all about. Also, some of the people who were involved in it have since seen their error. I would put Smithy himself in that category, although he has never said as much. In my exchanges with Michael, I have tried to encourage him to have a think about the matter. I haven’t made much impression on him so far, but one must never give up hope. regards. Bob BScar23625 18:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think highly of Smith and I know little of PK so I cannot offer my thoughts there. I am no racist... I do not believe any group is better than another... I count people of many ancestries among my own friends and am somewhat puzzled by this being about such a thing.

What I am opposed to, quite simply, is putting such a dreadful and unhelpful quote in the article... the thing reads like an extended newspaper feature so to top it off with that quote is bizarre. The effect? Everyone who reads it agrees that he is a 'dreadful character'—and that article is probably the most easily accessible and detailed one available on the man. michael ^talk 02:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Michael. I put Smithy into the same category as American segregationist politicians like George Wallace and Strom Thurmond. All of them advocated racist views at some stage in their careers then had a change of heart later in life. George Wallace started out as a civil rights lawyer, then switched to segregationist politician, then switched back to a pro-civil rights position. How far these public changes of view reflected conscience and how far they were merely opportunist is open to question.

But what I am asking you to consider is how it is possible to admire someone who openly espouses racist views, without being a racist yourself. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 08:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe there is far more on which to judge someone than their views on race, no matter how controversial (and despite how much popular attention is paid to them). It is likely that my own ancestors, like those of all of us, held racist views; does that mean I should not admire them as people? michael ^talk 08:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Michael. Yes, but Smithy wasn't your Grandad. He was a career politician and you can only judge him on what he did and said in the world of politics. Up to the early 1980s, Smithy was an avowed racist who promoted white supremacy through violent means. PK was an even more extreme case of this. How can you admire such people without admiring their racism?. regards. Bob BScar23625 11:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Given the strength of your views ("an avowed racist who promoted white supremacy through violent means") I doubt there is enough room on this page to conjure a response to your satisfaction. I do not condone or agree with particular extremities of Smith's (former?) views, yet, on the whole, I admire him as a person. michael ^talk 11:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Michael. George Wallace was a racist governor of Alabama who is famous (among other things) for opposing the admission of black students to the state University. However, after large numbers of black voters were enrolled, he experienced a sudden change of heart and was re-elected governor with black support.

The word was that Smithy considered re-entering active politics in the 1990s. Had he done so and stood for office, I suspect that he would have discovered how wrong he had been to oppose majority rule. Actually, in his case the likely line would be that he had been misunderstood and he had favoured majority rule all along. Perhaps you think I am being cynical?. Bob BScar23625 12:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The Politically Incorrect Guide to the British Empire has a long re-think of Smithy which shows him up as not much like Wallace at all - nor as a supporter of apartheid. PK, however, is a different story - so let us stick to that. Ian Smith has his own article. 95.149.54.104 (talk) 22:39, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

PK accent

Counter-revolutionary. I never heard PK speak but all accounts indicate that the accent was more Lord Haw Haw than Cambridge. Witness comments quoted in the article by Douglas Hurd and Dan van der Vat to name but two. Your claim that the origin of his strange style of speech was a Cambridge education is surely just speculation?. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 09:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

ps. Come to think of it, I heard him speaking on TV in the 1970s and 80s. Definitely Lord Haw Haw and not Cambridge. BScar23625 09:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

An upper-class Rhodesian/South African who 'picked up' an upper-class English accent was most likely to do so at school. PK was not sent to school in England, he did, however, attend university here. Thus it is appropriate to imagine that it was here that his accent developed. To compare it to William Joyce is unnecessary. He would not have been exposed to RP accents before he attended Cambridge (I can't recall where his father was at school). It seems this article is attempting to discredit PK via his accent. For those that believe it was affected there are those who also believe it was a product of his education - I am attempting to illustrate this.--Counter-revolutionary 10:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Counter-revolutionary. RP (received pronunciation(?)) English is the kind of thing you hear on the main BBC news bulletins. That is not the same as upper-class English. William Joyce was an American born Irishman, who tried to pass himself off as an upper class Englishman. PK was a South African Dutchman who also tried to pass himself off as an upper class Englishman. It is actually very difficult to pass yourself off as anything you are not - and the result in the cases of both Joyce and PK was quite grotesque.

As an aside, one could describe William Joyce as an upper class Irishman. I believe that Joyce got a first class degree in English from Birkbeck College, London. Do you feel that the accent that Joyce used in his Lord Haw Haw broadcasts was the result of his social background and education - or do you think he was just "putting it on"?. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 12:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

ps : why have you changed the spelling of your Username?

Without going into numerous socio-linguistic debates (which don't interest me terribly) RP (yes, Received Pronunciation) and an "upper-class" accent do share a common ground. Some believe the "upper-class" accent developed from the nobility attempting to imitate the German accent of the House of Hanover. That is an aside however.

Joyce was putting it on; firstly he wasn't really an upper-class Irishman (he was a R. Catholicm (for a start) and went to school in Ireland - "upper-class" Catholics went to school in France/Italy and "upper-class" protestants went to England). Thus it was not the product of his social upbringing.

For PK it is different. He was educated in England and, although he may have helped the development of his accent along, there is no doubt that his time at Cambridge influenced it.

I changed my name to correct the original typing er'r. --Counter-revolutionary 12:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Counter-revolutionary. Thanks for your comments concerning the origin of the upper-class accent, which interested me. William Joyce's father was a property owner and landlord. I believe he was a cousin of the writer James Joyce. You might not consider him strictly upper-class, but I would.

You are aware of Joyce's history as head of propaganda for the British Union of Fascists in the 1930s and his subsequent career in German radio. Do you perceive any connection between this and PK's role as Minister of Information in the UDI regime in Rhodesia?. regards. Bob BScar23625 15:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no connection between the two. --Counter-revolutionary 16:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It's original research to say PK did not have his accent before Cambridge, but it's definitely true to say he had it there, because we have a good source for his nickname. And it's definitely true to say that most people who heard him thought it was a phony accent. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 12:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Communist militants

Perspicacite. You write "He took a position popular with the right-wing of his party and opposed attempts to settle with Communist militants." The people PK opposed settlement with included the British government and a whole spectrum of black political leadership in Rhodesia. Do you feel that it is accurate to describe all these as Communist militants?. Bob BScar23625 08:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I do. --Counter-revolutionary 09:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It is hard to describe them. Guerrillas / Terrorists / Freedom Fighters / Communists / Black Nationalists (my pref. term). What do the rest prefer? michael ^talk 09:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Communist scum? --Counter-revolutionary 09:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Privately, yes. In a Wiki-context, no. michael ^talk 09:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

...I thought as much! --Counter-revolutionary 09:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Counter-revolutionary / Michael. I would like you two chaps to consider the issue of "inclusivity" in the development of a modern political system. Such a system works only when all groups (as defined by economic status, religion, ethnicity or region) are brought within the political mainstream. If a group is excluded from that mainstream then it will become radicalised. Thus in the case of Rhodesia, refusal to compromise with the Brits and moderate black leaders in the 1960s resulted in being forced to compromise with communist guerillas in the 1970s. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 09:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Bob, I like Smith, I do. But had I lived in Rhodesia I would have had no problem with equality under the law, much more relaxed voting qualifications, and other 'liberal' measures. The situation was not the fault of the Rhodesians / Zimbabweans, whether black or white. It was the Cold War (the idiocy of communism and irrational anti-colonialism) and its influence playing out in the background; blacks fearful they would be under white rule forever, whites scared of watching their country collapse into anarchy like all the rest of Africa. People reacted as would be expected.

But it is worth remembering that the RF only won the 1962 elections because Nkomo persuaded the blacks to boycott it; as Blake states in A History of Rhodesia (p. 344) "It was later estimated that if 5000 more 'B' roll voters had turned out for the UFP, Whitehead would have won. The boycott was decisive. In that sense Joshua Nkomo was the true architect of the victory of the Rhodesian Front."

But, to the point, can we get a consensus as to what term to use? michael ^talk 10:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's just name the specific organizations: ZAPU, ZANU, UANC, British government etc. Labeling them Marxists or Communists as I did puts it in the frame of context of the Cold War, black nationalists puts in the frame of a race war, and so on and so forth. Perspicacite 19:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Perspicacite. PK was unwilling to compromise with the Brits and with the conventional black and white opposition groups in the 1960s. But, in the end, he supported compromise with communist militants. Bob BScar23625 09:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That's great. I was speaking in terms of all situations in which the question of Communists vs black nationalists comes up. Perspicacite 16:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Retirement

“He left as a rich man” -- What’s the significance of that? Didn’t he come a rich man? And what money he might have made had no relation to his position in government.

“UDI had been a bit of a lark, to be enjoyed while it lasted and shrugged off when it failed.” --If he was putting himself literally on the front line (joining operations with his hunting rifle) it was certainly more of a personal commitment than those politicians glued to their desks who are always trying to placate themselves with those who they suspect may be in power tomorrow. What else could he do but shrugg it off after 1980? The Rhodesian Front was no longer in power and would hardly be in power again. You can’t be held responsible for something you no longer have control over. The responsibility now lay with the new government.

“Despite the deaths of thousands of Africans at the hands of white (?) Rhodesian troops and police resisting the inevitable…."-- Take a tally of how many innocents either killed or dying due to privations in Zimbabwe since ‘independence’, and one suspects that the per capita annual untimely death toll would have been much lower under UDI. Edward Carson 04:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Most deaths were caused by the Black terrorists. That is an undeniable fact. Before the Marxists began attacking the country in 1968 or so, there were no or very few deaths in Rhodesia. The place was far more peaceful than most of the rest of Africa.Royalcourtier (talk) 05:46, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

You can hear PK talk!

The BBC documentary 'Rebellion' is available from memoriesofrhodesia.com. In it are several clips of PK talking about Rhodesia, in his own inimatable way. These video clips could be of interest to readers of this article, but I am not quite sure of the appropriate way to present them.

The memoriesofrhodesia.com people sell videos with different points of view, so they are not a total propaganda site, though they look generaly pro-Rhodesian to me. Note that you must buy another and get 'Rebellion free with it; I suspect there is a copyright problem here.

What is the policy on commercial links? Or maybe some clips could be put on YouTube with appropriate links? There should be some way to get these live-action examples of 'the accent' available to Wikipedia users. What is the policy? 62.3.235.96 (talk) 11:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if memoriesofrhodesia.com are selling officially licensed copies of 'Rebellion'. However you can hear PK talk on a preview clip of a 1969 French documentary here at about 10 mins 30 seconds in. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The Associated Press has uploaded its archive to Youtube and a quick search reveals about half a dozen interviews featuring PK.

NPOV

The reference to his "extreme views " is both unencyclopaedic and unsupported by any references, or even clues as to what this refers to.Royalcourtier (talk) 05:44, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

FA concerns

Right, I am not familiar with the article and was going through old featured articles. I asked Cliftonian who replied thus. So if folks could take a look and avoid this going to FAR then that'd be good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:42, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

This Featured article was promoted in 2006, and its main writer has been gone for more than a decade. It has large amounts of uncited text, and a MOS review is needed. Unless someone is willing/able to engage to bring this article to FA standards, it should be submitted to Featured article review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Several of the references (#2, #52 and #62, etc.) appear to be improperly formatted. Templates are not used in refs when they really ought to be. I know this might not be the most important of the FACR, but it strikes me as a bit unprofessional. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:59, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

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