This is an archive of past discussions about Succession to Muhammad. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
OK folks, I've started an article. I don't have time to fill in the spaces, but I hope that others will pitch in. Zora 01:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Removing distinction between Twelvers and other Shi'a
Zereshk, you say that all Shi'a hold the same views about the succession to Muhammad, and differ on the imams they accept after Husayn. On that basis, we might as well change the organization and just have a "Shi'a" section pure and simple.
One caveat: I thought that there were some Shi'a who didn't accept Hassan as the second imam, but counted Husayn as the second. I'll have to rummage through the book I'm reading to find the reference. Zora 23:40, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please do and let me know. My sources say the divisions came after Husayn (as Imam #3). Still, this all doesnt concern the succession of Mohammad, as you pointed out.--Zereshk 01:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK, the book is The Formation of Islam, by Jonathan P. Berkey, Cambridge University Press, 2003. I've found this book quite useful in summarizing current scholarship and suggesting further reading.
Berkey devotes several chapters to the formation of Shi'ism as a movement; he argues that it didn't really solidify into a sect until after the Abbasids took power. He refers to earlier protesters as proto-Shi'a or Rafidi (refusers, the term used then for people who refused to give their loyalty to Abu Bakr and Uthman). On page 132, Berkey says, "most partisans of the ahl al-bayt identified the second and third Imams as his sons al-Hasan and al-Husayn". I think he phrases it that way because there were other rebels/claimants to the caliphate who were part of Muhammad's clan, but NOT descendents of Ali and Fatima. Your references might not consider these people Shi'a. Berkey considers anyone advancing the claims of the ahl al-bayt as proto-Shi'a. Zora 06:53, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
On second thought, there's a passage in the book somewhere that has the specific reference to Husayn being considered the second Imam, but I can't find it. Maybe later. Zora 10:22, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kharijites?
What about Ibadi views? Not that I know... - Mustafaa 19:13, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ah, very good point. They do tend to get left out, don't they? Zora 21:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Im ignorant there.--Zereshk 02:58, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) i agree
Finally, some sanity
I'm glad to see someone putting in Sunni hadith references, instead of deleting Shi'a ones.
Though it would be great if we could make them look nice, like the Shi'a section.
Also, this page needs to extensively be linked to all muslim pages. I'll get to that tomorrow I guess.--Zereshk 03:11, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Relevant passages from the Qur'an
I asked earlier about these problematic verses in the Passages used by The Shi'a subsection of the article. I looked them up (Chapter 5, Verse 55 and Chapter 5, Verse 3 and Verse 67) and they seem to have nothing to do with the succession. Chapter 5 verse 55 reads:
Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
Verse 3 reads:
O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the sacred house, seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the sacred precincts and of pilgrim garb, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah. for Allah is strict in punishment.
Verse 67 reads:
O Messenger. proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
How are any of these at all related to caliphal succession and how are they "used by the Shia?" --AladdinSE 23:53, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
Read the hyperlinked documentataion I provided you. Youll see. It's only two pages. We muslims know how it relates, because we know the story behind it. It seems you dont, obviously.
Also, a reminder once again, you're not here to judge the accuracy of what The Shi'a believe. We're here only to report it in the section of the Succession to Muhammad page that talks about "Shi'a views". I will keep repeating this as many times as it takes, until you understand this.--Zereshk 00:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If there's a step in the argument that has to be supplied from another website, you haven't made your argument, Zereshk. You can't just refuse to spell it out and tell us we're ignorant if we don't understand it.
Well said, Zora. --AladdinSE 08:45, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
I must say that I agree somewhat with AladdinSE in finding your expository style dense and unreadable. I can't even READ the list -- MEGO. My eyes glaze over. Whereas I'm reading Madelung's book about the same issues with utmost interest. He puts the hadith (copiously footnoted) into a narrative context and adds all the information the reader needs to catch their significance. He is especially good at highlighting the kinship links between all the actors and spelling out why such-and-such action was necessary, given Arabian beliefs about proper behavior towards kin. I'm not ready to dump your list, but I agree that it needs to redone in a narrative form. What we need is a Shi'a narrative, with the hadith references in a footnote section. So, tell us exactly what happened, from the Shi'a POV. Zora 04:37, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zora, since you are un-willing to even look at any of the references I post, I will cut and paste what Qom and Najaf say about the verses:
To prove the caliphate of Ali ibn Abi Talib, Shi'ites have had recourse to Quranic verses, including the following: "Your friend [wali] can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poor-due, and bow down (in prayer) [or, and this reading is accepted by 'Allamah Tabataba'i: "....pay the poor-due while bowing down (in prayer)"]" (Quran, V, 55). Shi'ite and Sunni commentators alike agree that this verse was revealed concerning Ali ibn Abi Talib, and many Shi'ite and Sunni traditions exist supporting this view. Abu Dharr Ghifari has said: "One day we prayed the noontime prayers with the Prophet. A person in need asked people to help but no one gave him anything, 'Oh God! Be witness that in the mosque of the Prophet no one gave me anything.' Ali ibn Abi Talib was in the position of genuflection in the prayers. He pointed with his finger to the person, who took his ring and left. The Prophet, who was observing the scene raised his head toward heaven and said: 'Oh God! My brother Moses said to Thee, "Expand my breast and make easy my tasks and make my tongue eloquent so that they will comprehend my words, and make my brother, Harun, my help and vizier" [cf. Quran, XXVIII, 35]. Oh God! I am also Thy prophet ; expand my breast and make easy my tasks and make Ali my vizier and helper.'" Abu Dharr says, "The words of the Prophet had not as yet finished when the verse [cited above] was revealed." Tabari Dhakha'ir al-'uqha, Cairo. 1356. p.16. This hadith has been recorded with a slight variation in al.Durr al-manthur. vol.ll, p.293. In his Chayat al maram p. 103 Bahrani cities 24 hadiths from Sunni sources and nineteen from Sh'ite sources concerning the conditions and reasons for the revelation of this Quranic verse. These pesudio hadith are so weak they can not even be considered hadith, this is pure fiction made up to support shia views. It is a well accepted fact that Muhammad (PBUH) did not appoint a sucessor.
Another verse which the Shi'ites consider as proof of the caliphate of Ali is this: "This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (even harming) your religion ; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL-ISLAM" (Quran, V, 3). The obvious meaning of this verse is that before that particular day the infidels had hopes that a day would come when Islam would die out, but God through the actualization of a particular even made them lose forever the hope that Islam would be destroyed. This very event was the cause of the strength and perfection of Islam and of necessity could not be a minor occasion such as the promulgation of one of the injunctions of religion. Rather, it was a matter of such importance that the continuation of Islam depended upon it.
This verse seems to be related to another verse which comes toward the end of the same chapter: "O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou will not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind." (Quran, V, 67). This verse indicates that God commanded a mission of great concern and importance to the Prophet which if not accomplished would endanger the basis of Islam and prophecy. But the matter was so important that the Prophet feared opposition and interference and in awaiting suitable circumstances delayed it, until there came a definite and urgent order from God to execute this command without delay and not to fear anyone. This matter also was not just a particular religious injunction in the ordinary sense, for to preach one or several religious injunctions is not so vital that if a single one of them were not preached it would cause the destruction of Islam. Nor did the Prophet of Islam fear anyone in preaching the injunctions and laws of religion.
These indications and witnesses add weight to the Shi'ite traditions which assert that these verses were revealed at Ghadir Khumm and concern the spiritual investiture (walayat) of Ali ibn Abi Talib. Moreover, many Shi'ite and Sunni commentators have confirmed this point.
Abu Sa'id Khudari says: "The Prophet in Ghadir Khumm invited people toward Ali and took his arm and lifted it so high that the white spot in the armpit of the Prophet of God could be seen. Then this verse was revealed: 'This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL-ISLAM.' Then the Prophet said, 'God is great (Allahu akbar) that religion has become perfected and that God's bounty has been completed, His satisfaction attained and the walayat of Ali achieved.' Then he added, 'For whomever I am the authority and guide Ali is also his guide and authority. Oh God! Be friendly with the friends of Ali and the enemy of his enemies. Whoever helps him, help him, and whoever leaves him, leave him.'" Bahrani, Chayat al-maram , p.336. where six Sunni and fifteen Shi'ite hadiths oncerning the occasion and reason for the revelation of the above Quranic verse are cited.
I can also cut and paste hundreds of pages about the hadiths if you like--Zereshk 07:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC).
If they are anywhere near as spurious as these so-called arguments are, the article will look even more ridiculous and unreadable then it does now. Nevertheless, if you wish to include the Quranic phrases as used by Shias to prove the Wilayat of Ali then surely you see that you must provide some narrative description condensed (NOT QUOTED VERBATIM) form the above mentioned "arguments." Also, the parts claiming Sunnis agree that such and such verses point to Ali is completely POV and needs neutral cited hyper-links to prove it. --AladdinSE 08:45, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
My dear AladdinSE,
I presented you with the view of 200 million Shi'a. That you do not see it convincing or impartial, is your problem to deal with. As I said, for the sections dealing with "Shi'a views", impartiality is not the issue at all, but rather, what the Shi'as view to be true is what we wish to write about. I will provide a hyperlink as well. Just for you.--Zereshk 09:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, Zereshk, you are NOT 200 million Shi'a. You are you. You can't get your own way by screaming that we're censoring Shi'a if we don't let you write exactly what you want to write. What sort of hubris is it to claim to speak for 200 million people who don't even know you?
I've seen this sort of thing when I was involved in Green politics. We'd get a minority member -- say, a Hawaiian -- who would then claim total authority over anything having to do with Hawaiian issues. Even when this person represented one particular viewpoint which was not shared by most Hawaiians.
I, at least, want your input. You're a well-informed Shi'a and your English is good (unlike Striver, who had good intentions but had a hard time with English). But you have to learn to cooperate, and to accept editing. I sure as heck wish there were some other Shi'as here, because I'm guessing that they would tell you to back down, that you are not showing your creed in a good light with your behavior. Zora 11:15, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My dear Zora, of course I am not 200 Million Shi'a. But the views I am presenting here are the views of the Shi'a mainstream. No ands, ifs, or buts. Unless you are saying that Qom does not represent Shi'a views? In fact I have been presenting the leftist view of Shi'a doctrines, just so that people like you and AladdinSE wont go ballistic.--Zereshk 22:54, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am NOT your dear Zora -- please don't be sarcastic. As for your "views" being mainstream ...
1) There are millions of Iranians (as demonstrated by election results, street demonstrations, etc.) who don't think well of Qom and the mullahs thereof. You have identified yourself very strongly with the clerical party. You are in opposition to millions of Shi'a.
2) We have to make a distinction between Zereshk's views as they involve matters of doctrine, where they are presumably Qom-certified orthodox, and Zereshk's views as they involve argumentation, written presentation, behavior on Wikipedia, etc. If there is ANY validity at all to the Shi'a tradition, there must be scholars who are polite and humble, who are willing to take editing, and who do not confuse their ego with Shi'a Islam as a whole -- that is, who are saintly, in the best of the Islamic tradition, as well as learned scholars. If you know of such, please bring them here. We need their help! Zora 02:18, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Reply to Zora
Zora, I apologize for saying "dear Zora". I didnt know you hold such vehemently antagonistic views toward me. Again, I apologize.
now...
Answers
Answer to point 1 by Zora:
People are in opposition to the clerical political establishment in Iran. Not to Qom's views on the Succession of Mohammad. Nice try.
Terrorists are killing Shi'as and Shi'a clerics in Iraq. They don't think well of the Shi'a mullahs either.
The same views I have written are held by Najaf. Would you like me to quote you some sources on that?
Answer to point 2 by Zora:
Character assassinating me is not the way to go, Zora. Instead, please please please accept the right of the Shi'a to express themselves on Wikipedia.
Instead of attacking me, why do you never ask me for further references and resources to verify what I write? I can provide you with more than enough of that.
You openly admit Shi'a hadith to be "unrelaible". (!!!)
Your anti-Shi'a position is obvious! What more can I say! :)
Comment:
Zora said:
"If there is ANY validity at all to the Shi'a tradition..."
I think that is self explanatory of the unusual vicious atmosphere we have prevalent here. Zora is out to prove that the Shi'a are wrong.
Suggestion; An easy solution to the problem.
Here's an idea:
Pick any Shi'a Grand Ayatollah you deem fair and reliable. For example, let us pick Grand Ayatollah Montazeri. He is against the clerical establishment of Iran. Or how about the British based Grand Ayatollah Khoei's office, whose son was murdered in Iraq. Fair?
Let us send an email to his office asking questions about things Zora or anybody else thinks is POV.
Let us reflect those as authentic Shi'a views.
fair?
And if that fails, I am ready to take this discussion to arbitration. It seems we are getting nowhere with this talk. Do you agree?--Zereshk 03:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No grand ayatollahs. I don't think any grand ayatollah would be able to take a collegial attitude towards Wikipedia. He would give us POV opinions ex cathedra -- which is not what is needed here. An American Shi'a mainline academic with deep religious practice and a humble and conciliating personality would be a good addition to the team (IMHO), if one could be found.
Oh, I apologize abjectly. That's me be blatantly US-centric, which is just plain wrong. Any English-speaking Shi'a mainline academic (that is, someone who's had a Western-style education and teaches in a reputable university) with a cooperative attitude ... That widens it out to the rest of the world. Zora 05:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As to going to arbitration, Zereshk, arbitration over WHAT? Your right not to have anyone else tell you that you're mistaken, or edit your prose? You don't have such a right. Are you saying that I've called you names? I've asked you to be more collegial and cooperative, but I don't think that's equivalent to calling you names. As for me being out to prove the Shi'a wrong ... that's just silly. Here I've been taking flak from OTHER editors for being too pro-Shi'a and you're telling me I'm anti-Shi'a. Whew!
Clearly, I'm not getting through to you; I'm just raising your hackles. I think it might be best to retire from arguing with you for a while. I will keep on making the best edits I can, and justifying them in talk pages, but I won't engage in back-and-forth with you. This isn't getting us anywhere. Zora 05:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
On a side note....
It's pretty funny, you know. I too have been taking flak here from you and others for being too pro-Shi'a, yet everytime I go to Iran for a visit, I have to put up a similarly intense fight to defend America and American ideals in debates from vicious right wing Iranian nationalist/religious freaks.
I have to take it from both sides.--Zereshk 13:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am currently busy with other things. I therefore do not have time to oversee or even read the new text that keeps appearing on Shi'a pages. But sooner or later, hopefully I will.--Zereshk 20:06, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This debate seems to be mixing all kinds of issues. The question of how to explain Shia views is separate from the question of what Shia views are, and I think it's quite reasonable to give a narrative presentation, rather than just pasting in loads of hadith with little explanation. And the question of what people think of Shia clerics, or of Iranian politics, is neither here nor there... - Mustafaa 23:27, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I also agree. Ive already put in a narrative section for the hadith. I will put in more soon. You are right. Each hadith must be explained as well.--Zereshk 06:24, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed a copyvio
I removed the section on Shi'a views, because I discovered that it was copied directly from Sayyed Hossein Nasr's introduction to the Tabatabai book. Even though that book is online, to be read by anyone, that doesn't mean that it's OK to cut-n-paste huge swathes from it without attribution. The selection really wasn't the right thing -- we just need a narrative. Zora 12:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No Copyright Violation
If the selection "wasnt the right thing", that's one issue.
If anyone wishes to further investigate my claim above, they can personally email the publishers: Ansarian@noornet.net
Hence I will continue to use that and other sources provided by them to enrich the information on wikipages.--Zereshk 14:13, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Somewhat off-topic
I think there is something we can all agree on, and that is this VFD. It's about the so-called "Islamofascism". The most NPOV way to treat this is to redirect it to a list of political epithets, but it seems some people want to turn it into an article about how Islam is a fascist ideology comparable to Nazism.Yuber 00:12, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please DON'T troll Islam-related talk pages looking to pull people into a flamewar. Zora 01:14, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Islam-related talk pages" are the only place I can think of where the subject of Islamofascism may be interesting to some people. Care to suggest another place I can post this so Muslims will see how people are trying to say Islam is Fascism?Yuber 01:23, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Question re Historians
I am a Shia Muslim and I have been trying to improve as many Islam-related articles as I can. I apologise if I have not always explained what I have done. I also hope that disputes neither hinder the progress of a particular article nor suspend any future editing, because it is important that Islamic perspectives are presented as they actually are.
There is a question that I have, however, that may be answered by Zora if she wishes, and my question is this: Of course as with any encyclopedia, the text must be presented from a neutral point of view. However, clearly many historians who documented Islam-related events were Shias. Does this necessarily exclude them from being relied upon for presenting reliable facts? It may well be that a non-Muslim historian maybe no more trustworthy than a Muslim historian. I presume that we should accept that we will have to be content with using both Shia and Sunni sources. Furthermore, surely a Christian or an Atheist historian can also be considered to be biased towards his or her own belief system. Thank you. Adamcaliph 00:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC).
Of course Shi'a sources should be included. But they shouldn't be considered authoritative -- any more than the Sunni or the academic sources should be considered authoritative. We need to try to give a neutral presentation of all points of view (POVs).
We had a tussle over sources earlier because Zereshk wanted to include a HUGE amount of material, badly formatted, and would not accept any editing. I, and other editors, certainly want the Shi'a POV represented, but we want the section to be READABLE. Striver, another Shi'a editor, also had a problem with what I call "hadith dumps". Myself, I think that Shi'a are better represented by a concise, readable summary of their views. We were having problems with individual Shi'a editors, not with the Shi'a viewpoint. If you can give a better presentation of the Shi'a POV, one that is understandable to a casual reader who knows nothing about Islam or early Islamic history, and that's short enough not to overwhelm, go ahead!
I've been known to wish that Reza Aslan, the author of No God But God, would show up here to represent the Shi'a POV, because I truly admired his book; it was well researched and well written. He didn't convince me to become a Muslim, or a Shi'a, but he certainly gave me a better understanding of how the beliefs "make sense" to people who are Shi'a. Zora00:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for the reply Zora. Adamcaliph 02:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed all the Qur'an quotes, hadith dumps, disquisitions re the nature of the imamate, etc., and tried to present some comprehensible narratives that would be comprehensible to non-Muslim users of Wikipedia.
Too many of the Muslim editors seem to be completely in thrall to the long history of Sunni-Shi'a debate. Asked to outline their position, they fall back on old methods of intra-Muslim debate, in which it is ASSUMED that all combatants will be Muslim and will accept some documents or traditions as binding. Argument thus reduces to squabbles over the meaning of a verse from the Qur'an, what "occasion of revelation" explains it, what hadith are to be trusted, why certain narrators in the chain of isnad are unreliable ... it is a debate that makes sense only within a framework of shared belief. This does not work for non-Muslims.
Sunni-Shi'a debate would make a good article, I think, and if someone else wants to start writing a history of the debate before I get to it, please do! This would be the place for the hadith dumps and the arguments re occasions of revelation. Zora11:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Without the hadith (at least the Shia ones), the articles seriously lack any merit or even credibility. The article has now turned into a watered down narrative of what Madelung believes Shias believe happened. Not what the Shias believe. It's now a he-said she-said chronicle.
I remember that the text of Hadith of Thaqalayn was even a test question on the National University Entrance exams. Knowing the hadith by heart was required to get a high school diploma. So were the other several hadith I had listed. It's a central axis of Shia belief.
Without it, this article is a joke, and does not reflect The Shia view. (yes, I represent the Shia view. I know about myself and my beliefs more than anyone else).
The article is much simpler, and possibly easier to read. The article needed a spring clean. I imagine that it has become a lot clearer to the non-Muslim who is generally unfamiliar with, as you put it, the “Intra-Muslim Debate”. However, may I make the following suggestions:
Re "Umar, his long-time friend and supporter...".
I believe that the above statement is POV. Sunnis agree with the statement; Shi’as disagree with the statement.
Re introduction to "The Shi'a view of the succession".
May I suggest the following version:
The Shi'a believe that God has stated that the world is never left without a vicegerent. They therefore believe that Muhammad, being one of God’s vicegerents, appointed a successor. They believe that God chose Ali to be the successor. They believe that before he died, Muhammad, in accordance with God’s will, indicated at various times, and in various ways, his trust and reliance upon Ali. Ali was not only his cousin, but the husband of his daughter Fatima, and the father of his beloved grandchildren Hasan and Husayn. Ali was a leader in battle, entrusted with command, and left in charge of the community at Medina when Muhammad led a raid on Tabuk.
I believe that this version is more accurate and possibly better explains the Shi’a perspective that it is not up to humans to appoint the Leader of humankind; rather, no one else other than God can make such an appointment.
Re Ghadir Khom: "The Shi’a say that after finishing his pilgrimage..."
It is not the occurrence of the event that is disputed by Sunnis; rather it is the significance of what was said at the event. As such, it is slightly misleading to provide "The Shi'a say..."
Academic books.
I believe that there should be a heading for the non-Muslim books.
Certainly the article is moving in the right direction. Well done. Adamcaliph 02:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk's POV tag
Zereshk, you haven't made clear what you mean by the hadhyan of Umar. Google brings up nothing useful and there's nothing in the index to Madelung. As for your threat that you will not give a Shi'a "endorsement" unless you get to include all the hadith you feel are relevant ... well, I dispute your standing to speak for all the Shi'a, and I do not feel that the article would be any more readable if the hadith were included. If you wanted to write an article entitled Hadith cited by the Shi'a in defense of their version of the succession to Muhammad then we could link to it. Then it would be there, but not cluttering up the article. Zora03:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Answer to Zora
Zora, please read all of this carefully and honor the time I put into writing it. It took an hour for me to write it. Instead of trying to answer me right away chopping my paragraphs, please first think about what Im saying for a while. Especially the last item.
1. You cant dispute me on what I am. I am a Shia (though from a more introspective, enigmatic, and liberal school of thought), and you do not know my faith better than I do. Youre an outsider. Neither does Madelung, or anyone else, no matter how hard they try. You dismiss Qom and any Marja of Taqleed I provide. So I easily dismiss you and all your "academic" babble. So that's that.
2. That being said, I repeat: This article lacks any credibility as long as the Shia voice is not heard. A seemingly academic take on the Shia's view cannot substitute the Shi'as actual view.
3. You do not understand the significance Hadith has for both Sunni and Shia in Islam. I cannot really argue with someone on some topic, when that person is not informed on that topic. A physicist cannot argue about Physics with someone who doesnt know physics.
4. Of course Google wont give you anything on Hadhyan (هذیان). Since when is google a source for academics? If you mention the incident of Mohammad's will, then you must have fidelity and mention all of what happened. Omar accused Mohammad of saying hazyan, therefore ruling out the need for a will. This view is not my view. It is the Shia view. And you suppress it because you simply feel a political affinity for Arabs.
Ah yes. I know where your problems with me stem from. You dont even understand the real meaning of the word "nationalism" that you keep throwing at me. But then again, you arent at fault. Youre an outsider. And you come from an academic background that Edward Said kept pointing at. i.e. the orientalist. What bothers me though, is that you desperately try to remain an outsider and shut out the world from what we (the insiders) have to say, only because Qom is in "Persia" (that land where its people think so highly and pompous of themselves). But did you ever try to go further than that apparent observation and try to see why they seem to see the world that way? Did you ever try to view the world from our eyeglasses? Ethnicity, racism, and nationalism are all diseases from the west. Did you ever ask why me and SC act the way we do? Or did you just jump to conclusions based on what you see? It's the world is only what is seen attitude. Another western academic product. How should I put it....: Nationalism is "us vs. them". Trying to save a culture and heritage from being erased is not nationalism. Our philosophy is "us AND them". It's exactly what Khatami meant by "dialogue of civilizations". He was trying to say that "we also exist as a civilization just like you do". Why? Because he, me, and SC very easily spot shit like this happening everyday. Nationalism is solipsistic, whereas we acknowledge the greatness of others. Cyrus the Great kicked ass. But so did Buddha and Heisenberg and the Mesopotamians who invented writing and the wheel and arithmetic.
I fight for those who get swept under the rug of history, whether Arab, Persian, Muslim, or Fijian. Naturally, youre never there to see me defending Arabs or Muslims (regardless of their Sunni or Shia background). Youre never there to see me attack Persians either. Humans only tend to see the negativity in others. And at this point in time, the rights of the Shia, and the memory of Iran and Persia, in specific, are being swept under the rug of history more than the others in ways like this, and nobody's noticing. Except us of course, the insiders, and those who know. We remember the days in the 70s when bookshleves in places like Borders and Barnes and Nobles had equal amounts of books on China, Egypt, India, and Persia. Tell me, did you notice the sound of the fly buzzing around ugly and mean looking Persian soldiers ready to battle Alexander in Oliver Stone's new movie "Alexander The Great"? In his commentary in the extra features section of the DVD, Stone actually says "we tried to make the Persians look dirty". and Im thinking..."but WHY???" He made it into an east vs west thing. But do people actually know that Iranians name their kids "Iskandar" (Alexander) even today? Rent the movie from Blockbuster. You may laugh at my comment. "Oh, so a fly bothered you. That's hardly academic and important in reality". Just think, Why is it that (overall), the villains in western media culture are traditionally black haired people or people of color while the good guys are always blondes and fair skinned? Cultures are shaped and deformed by such propaganda and negative publicity. That's exactly how Bush goes to war convincing 50% of Americans that Saddam was actually behind 9-11 (even though I hated the bastard Saddam myself). The point is, that we see the blackout that's been going on because of some stupid thing Khomeini did 25 years ago. It is all driven by political conflicts. Unfortunately, what such people (like yourself) do not understand is that the heritage of Persia also belongs to you and all humanity, not just me and SC, the genetic inheritors. Genetics has no meaning anyway, since Persia was made of 100 different ethnic groups. It's what our great sage Sadi so openly declared when he said:
"Of one Essence is the human race,
Thusly has Creation put the Base;
One Limb impacted is sufficient,
For all Others to feel the Mace."
You can read these lines on the UN building walls in NY. (they were engraved in the Shah's time. I'm not sure if they are still there today. Perhaps a quote from Virgil or Erasmus has replaced it.)
That's the very reason why I'm here spending precious time on Wikipedia. Because this is one of the very few places where the information blackout does not extend to. Please, ....leeeaaaarn. There is much more to the world than what is apparent to your eye. Visit Iran, live among their people, then call them nationalist. Visit Qom, then decide. Live with the Shia. Then try to claim you know them.--Zereshk09:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Also, since Zora doesnt accept anything I say about Shias (as a Shia), I went to the trouble of scanning documents. This is what Shias say about the Hadhyan (delirious) reference of Omar to Mohammad for "the will":
Sure, Umar's supposed claim that Muhammad must have been delirious should be there. But you shouldn't get upset because I don't understand a reference in Arabic. Zora02:45, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Attacking another editor is impolite and distracting. Help us all out by summarizing in a single sentence the point you are trying to make here, Z. BrandonYusufToropov14:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
References
Zereshk, I was going to move your note to "look at page 33" to the article for that hadith, but I found that the note was already there. If the reader wants to find out more about the hadith, the info is there. There's no need to clutter up the article here, which is already chock-full of hard-to-digest info.
I appreciate your moving the hadith references out to their own articles. That makes the main article easier to read and also gives us more room to talk about the reliability of the hadith, or interpretation of the hadith. Zora23:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Trust me Zora, it's quite easy to sense your urge in trying to shut out any references I provide. I just sincerely wish you would stop that partisanship editing of yours. Hate me, fine. But at least be impartial on the info.--Zereshk00:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Question
A question for all of you...
If maters related to deen are so disputed...and if all of us agree that there is One God and that Muhammad (p.b.u.h) was the last prophet...why argue about anything else?...yes the Caliphs were amazing people with characters we should all follow...but if it means a split in our people...why not just stick to the fact mentioned...that there is One God and Muhammad is the final messenger. To me this whole shia sunni thing is a matter of who´s right and whose wrong...I seriously doubt the intentions of those who persist on fighting on who was to be the real first caliph! Yes it made a difference at the time...but how does it effect you as a muslim today?
Are we not told to stick together and follow simply the Quran and Sunnah?
Surely the main aim of Islam is to believe in Allah and thank Him for His blessings and worship none other than Him. The main idea being to please Allah...why then have we all resorted to dwelling (in my opinion) on pity issues. Is it really worth the split in muslims?
"And hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided amongst yourselves" Quran.
S Anwar
Brother, of course we are unitad in Islam. But i will never accept any belief system that demands of me to respect people like Muawiya or that demands me to obey animals like Yazid. Oh, and by the way, According to Sahih Muslim, it was the Quran and Ahl al-Bayt we where supposed to follow, remeber? --Striver11:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree, but no-one is asking you to accept those beliefs...all is asked of you to respect their beliefs. What they believe in after Muhammad...as far as it doesn´t claim a new prophet or an equal to Allah....makes no difference. To me (i may be wrong) the right of Ali to be or not to be the caliph or Abu Bakar to be the caliph is as important as whether or not the president of my country wins the next election or not. Yes its important to choose the right ruler...but it doesn´t really matter when the country doens´t exist anymore does it!...we don´t ahve a khilafa anymore ...yes if we did it would be a disputable topic since we coudl fight on who is the rightful khalifa...but there is no khilafa...and fighting over wat happened in the past won´t change the future. I repeat IF the difference comes down to who was to rule after Muhammad....forget it!. Yes we have been told to follow Ahl al-Bayt...to me the best thing do is follow the 10 blessed companions...that doens´t mean quarrelling over Abu Bakar and Ali´s political position, but to follow their personalities and strive like they did to perfect following the Prophets personality and teachings!
You metioned Sahih Muslim, then truely you would have read in the signs of qiyaamah that muslims would be enemies to one another...you can argue and say its inevitable...but to me (if i could say this to all muslims)...just stick together...surely the word of Allah is greater than any companion of the Prophet. If Allah commands "Hold fast to the rope of Allah and be not divided amongst yourselves", we should follow that blindly...if people fight with you regarding caliphs or religion thats between them and Allah, atleast we should try and stay away from anything that invokes hate between our own people. I repeat...one who says the Kalima IS a muslim, even if you know for sure they don´t mean it or they are just saying it to save their lives or for watever reason...one who says the kalima is a muslim...fullstop. If a shia says the Kalima and believes in One Allah and Muhmmad (p.b.u.h) then he/she is a muslim and i oppose anyone who says the opposite. Yes if they equal Ali with the prophets (which i doubt they do) then you can question their faith...but still calling someone a kafir is a big thing...and since when has man become the judge of things of the sort.
A request
At the risk of opening a whole new battleground, I'd like to suggest some knowledgeble people create a section on the current effects on the succession dispute. On a surface level, the question is now moot - the individuals involved have died and it seems pointless to divide up a religion today over a question of who should have held an office 1300 years ago. But, even as a non-Muslim, I realize there are greater issues involved. It would be good to explain the current doctrinal differences between Shi'a and Sunni and how they evolved from their original differences of opinion over the succession. MK203:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
That's too large a topic to be covered in this article. It would also be very difficult to cover it in one other article, since there's a more than 1200 year history of conflict between Sunni and Shi'a, both of which contained numerous viewpoints, and both of which evolved over time. I'm trying to work on an article re the history of Shi'a Islam, which would cover some of the material you want, but it's going to take me a while to do the reading and then write. If you're interested and don't want to wait, you might like the book I'm reading now: An Introduction to Shi'i Islam, by Moojan Momen. It's 25 years old and out of print, but you might find it in a library. Zora09:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Islamic articles in Wiki are all written by Shia even the Sunni View
Dear friends Zora and others
I made changes to the article succession to Muhammad, where I changed only the sunni view ( just added to it)
it was written by shia.
All my changes reversed.
I demand my changes returned.
Striver is not a Shia but an off shoot shia of the Ghula who worship Ali ( article of Ali), where my changes are also reversed.
I contend with only making changes in the Sunni View which always comes next, why?
Sunnis are 95% of Muslims population while Shia are 3% the remaining 2% are Druze, Ahmadi, Ibadi alawi( who are not considered shia) yet Striver Alawi is making the bulk of the article.
This is absurd( if you are amking a WORLD Encyclopedia)
other wise in the currect version you should call it ( exotic and pervert encyclopedia)!
The Wikipedia should be purged fromall the additions that are not related to the subject ( myths for example),
We are talking about facts here.
Also the Sunni view should come first( 95% of Islam), That is if you really want to know about Islam, other wise you if you need to look your self in the mirror then you do that and don't go all this work.
My changes on this article ( succession to Mu) and (Ali) are reasonable if you really read them.
If you don not, I am going to send complaints every where devaluating your Encyclopedia in the media.
Aha, YOU'RE the one. I spent a long time reverting your edits. One, it helps if you take a username. Two, you have to supply references for your edits. You can't just add what you believe; you have to give us reason to believe that many Sunni believe as you do. Three, you write as if English were your second language. This is not a large handicap if you're just starting a useful article, but when you start editing an article that is already written in good English, you are making extra trouble for other editors. If you go present your proposed edits one by one, we can discuss them and add them bit by bit. Zora03:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Adnan
Adnan, I hate to keep undoing your work, BUT your edits are sub-standard English AND you're asserting matters as fact that are in fact Sunni belief. You can't just say that shura is prescribed in the Qur'an, for example. Please take this one bit at a time, instead of trying to revise the entire article to PROVE that the Sunni are right. Zora05:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Zora
It is not a crime if my English is substandard as you claim.
you can fix my bad English or a administrator can do that ( they are paid to do that don't worry,
but you should not remove my edits they are under standable, they are not debatable:
Abbasids claim for khilafa is based on their lineage from Abbas and that is why they their name come from ( this does not require a proof)
as for The page say that Abbasids returned to the claims of first khalifs , that is blasphemy and you keep returning it.
The subject of the succession to Muhammad is not a shia subject or an anti-islam subject.
The page was full of shia assersions out side the shia view and you were comfortable with that, why?
It is not Shi'a POV to say that there is controversy about something. As a Sunni, you think that there is no controversy, that you are right and those other folks are wrong. Well, to someone who is NEITHER Sunni nor Shi'a, there does seem to be controversy. Zora10:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
The sunni view was written by shia presenting a sunni view from a shia website which was in the sunni links. I sent it to the shia link.
The sunni view as now is not the sunni view.
are you happy with that
as for me I have added a link that include all the references names of books that bolster my edits, so you don't have to erase my edits.( because you say they are open to debats, well11 how about the shia view are they not open to debate, so why don't you delete them.
I am afraid you are complicit some how.
I put in the sunni view that story about Al-Muhsin is not true, because if it is true there will be names of people in that name immediately after the incident or say 100 years or two hundred years.
I agree with you that the story re Al-Muhsin is doubtful. However, we have to be neutral and give both sides. Zora10:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't have to bring you a proof, you bring me a proof that Yes there was a man named Muhsin in the 100 H or 200 h and then you refute my claim. How about that.
I have compiled several places and articles where there is obvious malingering, and if I present these evidences to critics or say Encyclopedia Britanica, you rating will fall.
do you want me to go ahead and do that, because this is what I am going to do. It is gone too far for Wikipedia invaded by full time editors and administrators who promote the shia view on the expense of the truth a encyclopedia should show!!!!!!!!!
It's funny, Adnan ... here you are accusing me of being complicit with the Shi'a and the Shi'a are sure that I'm complicit with the Sunni. No, I'm not full-time, I'm just a jobless wikiholic. Zora10:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Just to be fair:
Excuse me saltyseaweed: Muhammad was never a secular leader! The word secular or anything similar to it is absent from the Arabic language. There is no secularity in Islam, because Muhammad embodied the religious, military, economic and cultural leader of Medina. Therefore, the Companions and al salafi al salih were the leaders of all things pertaining to Islam. Because the shahada, 'ash hadu an la illaha illaha, ash hadu Mohammed ur rasulullah, makes it clear that there is to be no intermediary between the umma and Allah, it is haram to have a "secular" leader in Islam, as it would place the authority of a government ahead of Allah's authority. Democracy in a culturally amicable sense both with regard to local cultures and Islam at the heart of its essence is permissable, the leader must follow the example of Muhammad and his Companions and not rule in a way that is in conflict with a modern application of shari'a.
Additionally, the last ten years of Muhammad's life were referred to as al maghazi, or "the raids" referring to the battles that were engaged in to spread the Quranic message, and is never symbolic of anything secular!
I just wanted to clarify saltyseaweed's assertions. caswe
Saltyseaweed
I reverted some of your edits. Frex, you had changed "Muhammad was a secular ruler for the last ten years of his life" to "was a leader of the Muslim community ...". Now, he'd been leading the Muslim community for close to 20 years. It's just that in the last ten he acquired a land base, an army, and a web of alliances. I would call that becoming a secular ruler as well as a religious leader. Perhaps we should add the "as well as religious leader" to the text?
Also, you added "Shi'a believe that" to some sentences in the Shi'a section. I think that the fact that the sentences are IN the Shi'a section indicates their POV. We don't need to continually re-specify at the sentence level. Also, just as an aside, it isn't just the Shi'a who say that Ali wasn't mentioned at Saqifah, or that a Medinan elder was beaten up -- you can find these details in Ibn Ishaq, who is a Sunni historian. Zora02:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Zora, I have a problem with the word "secular" as I think the word is misused in the sentence. While it is true that the kinds of authorities (army/alliance/land base) Muhammad yielded are governmental in nature, not all governments are secular. Secular denotes neutrality in regard to religion. Obviously not all governments are secular, and certainly not the early Muslim community. I think "the leader of the Muslim Community" is the best description as those powers you mention were not even new to Muhammad (he was considered the legal, religious, and military leader among the Muslims from the beginning as far as I know).
I'd have to disagree there. He couldn't have been a military leader until he received permission to take up the sword, which he claimed to have received at Aqaba, before the Hijra. Before Aqaba, the Muslims were resolutely nonviolent. I do take your points re the use of the word "secular", however. I think your recent edits are an improvement. Zora
Rather, as the community grew, Muhammad's power grew in magnitude. I apologize for the incorrect date, though, you are right that it should be close to twenty years.
I added "Shia' believe that" despite the section being in Shi'a section simply because "according to the Shi'a" and other likewise clauses are used throughout the section. Therefore, the LACK of such a clause may, in context, be construed as the statement being universally accepted.
That's a problem, then, because I don't want to have to add "according to the Shi'a" to every dang sentence. I would have imagined that the heading would be enough to warn readers that it was all Shi'a POV. Do you have any suggestions that don't involve prefacing each sentence with "according to the Shi'a"? Zora16:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is okay to sacrifice some conciseness for accuracy. Where Shi'a and Sunni agree on the event but differ in interpretation, I think the event should be stated as a fact and Shi'a's interpretation be clearly marked as such even in Shi'a section. If Shi'a believe that an event occurred but Sunni don't, then that fact should be made clear. Unlike paper encyclopedia, we have no page contraint here, and later editions can always par down the sentences to make the reading less awkward. Saltyseaweed16:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
My correction regarding Medinan elder was more for clarity. The original sentence said the Umar was "willing to beat up" the elder. As there is a distinction between being willing to do a thing and actually carrying it out, I simply thought my sentence was clearer.
I remember reading a bad joke that the vote was done orally and that they beat up the old man until he screamed "Ow," which was close enough to be counted as "Aye."Saltyseaweed16:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Having said these things, I am going to make a small alteration to the article to get your attention. We can continue the discussion further. Saltyseaweed15:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, as most visitors to Wikipedia I came here today for some cross-reference, and the topic "Succession to Muhammad" would have been what I needed. Seeing the "disputed warning" I went to the talk page, where I'm now, slightly chocked and that's not the reason I came here (that was to use Wikipedia as a encyclopaedia). Honestly Zereshk, your writing is not about Shia or not, that is just something you try to hide behind. Problem is your attitude, not your sources, work or belief. There is no question that you can contribute a lot to Wikipedia, but allow me to look at from the users point of view. If a user want information about the Succession to Muhammad, then s/he wants that. First of all who the successors was, dates, any special events during their time and so forth. The average user is not interested in a free fall into a spider’s nest of religious opinions. An article about the successors should have the basic facts, and then added a small section called something like: "different views on the successors". That's the place where the general difference on Shia and Sunni view should be mentioned. ANY details more than the general information should be own articles IMHO. As a user of Wikipedia I don't care if the writer is Shia, Sunni, Druse, or whatever - in fact that should NOT reflect in the article. An encyclopaedia article should give such a balanced view that one would not be able to guess what personal belief the writer/s got. Where more than one opinion is around, the subject of the article should still be the sole focus. If any diversities need further information, these different opinions / religious views, can be explained in own articles and linked to from this article. The attitude you show here Zereshk is not helping the users of Wikipedia, and that should be your sole interest when editing articles, AND when discussing with fellow editors here... ArnvidAA
I edited some bit here and there to show some historical accuracy, and correct undue bias towards the shia view in 'an overview of events'.The shia were not known as rafidhi until much later during the time of Zaid, the great grandson of Ali. They were just known as "Shia". Muslims make a distinction between Rafidha Shias and Zaidi Shias. The former are known to curse and cast doubt on most of the companions of Muhammed. While the latter are not much different from sunnis except that they dispute the fact tht Abu Bakr was more apporpriate then Ali for the caliphate and also the later events regarding the Khawarij. I strongly agree with ArnvidAA..--Blingpling05:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I strongly second ArnvidAA's message. As a user of Wikipedia, I ask that editors be as respectful and user-focused in their efforts as possible - especially in consideration of those users who are approaching this topic for the first time. Where a topic is understood in various ways by groups holding various irreconcilable views, a brief description of these different views must be provided - again, to the extent necessary to frame and describe the issue to a novice user. However, a user will not want and should not expect to be presented with defenses of any of these various views.
Editors, having their own views on this topic, will naturally find an encyclopedia-style definition of a subjective topic incomplete and, I am sure, would elaborate at length in a more appropriate venue. Thus, the limitations of this job requires quite a bit of restraint of them. Users, if interested, can pursue elaborations and commentary on the different views described through other avenues than an encyclopedia, which should maintain absolute dispassionate objectivism. --msludwick
Backdating Shi'a to times when there were no Shi'a as known today
There are next to no sources for Islamic history that come from the pre-Abbasid period. We are told that there were oral traditions, but nothing was written down until the early Abbasid period. What we know of the development of Shi'a Islam is that there were no Shi'a, as known today, with all their doctrines, in the first hundred years of Islam. They were called Shi'at Ali, or Rafidi, and they were both a political party, a regional party (Iraq and Iran against Syria), and a religious tendency (piety rather than worldliness). It wasn't until Jafar that some of the doctrines associated with Shi'ism today were developed. It was only somewhat before that that Shi'at Ali became abbreviated to Shi'a.
Contemporary Sunni and Shi'a both try to "backdate" their sects to the time of Muhammad, insisting that everything they believe now was there in Medina in 631 CE. Academics do not accept this. They see the traditions as developing, and changing.
Muslims aren't alone in this. Christians or Buddhists insist that they have the true doctrine, just as it was preached and practiced by Jesus or Buddha, and that of course Jesus was a Methodist, or Buddha a Ch'an monk. Historians must debunk this.
Of course we can give the "orthodox" views, but we have to give the historical view too. Zora09:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Article Needs Rewrite
This article has digressed into something it was specifically not intended to be. While it is not very important as to who wrote it, the initial author while attempting to maintain neutrality has created a controversial format for this article. I personally feel that this article has a Shia slant, but to each his own. This has turned into a Sunni/Shia debate as to who and why so and so should have been the successor. Many of the sub topics are irrelevent and only further this debate. The article is about the succession to Muhammad. Some of the sub topics while offering some insight into time period, only ignite conflict and need to be trimmed for the sake of neutrality. Remember, the purpose of this article is NOT to PROVE who is right and who is wrong but only to explain the events that are related to the succession of Muhammad and how it was achieved from the different perspectives. I understand it's not that easy given the delicate nature of the subject but hopefully we can work together in achieving this goal. IMO, the western view is also irrelevent to the purpose of this article. While I do thank the administrators for volunteering their personal time in managing this site, there is too much derailment. As for all of those who are editing this article, please include more citations as your edits only reflect your opinion on the matter.
Am I crazy?
I understand there are many non-native English speakers here, or maybe there is a reason why this article is entitled as such but Succession TO Muhammad doesn't make sense. Perhaps Succession after Muhammad, or from Muhammad.
The title is a direct lift from Wilferd Madelung's very good book, The Succession to Muhammad. Cambridge University Press thought that was a perfectly good title. You think your English is better than theirs? Um, perhaps you are crazy. Zora18:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
The sunni view of Ali's hesistance
Personally, i have something to add in the connection with the sunni view of Ali's hesitance. According to the Sunni view, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:546 is especially notable because Ali does acutally admit that Abu Bakr has some kind of superiority. This website [14], i think, gives a fair good view of the sunni view of the succession. Thank you for reading. God bless you all.
Template
Zora, i created that template for navigation purpose. If you look closely, you will see that pure Sunni view articles like Abu Bakr's prayer linked to it. If there is any section that you feel is missing, then fix it, or tell me so i can fix it for you. --Striver06:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
January 2007 springcleaning
I hadn't looked at this article for a long time and I was distressed by what I found here. Various Shi'a and Sunni apologists had pasted arguments into the wrong place (inserting Shi'a arguments in the Sunni section, etc.) and presented minority POVs as if they were shared by all Sunni and Shi'a. There was pious language and gross distortions of accepted historical fact. There was a lot of material that wasn't referenced. In the course of the Sunni-Shi'a struggles, the article had become somewhat disorganized and incoherent.
I tried to bring the article back towards NPOV. I still have to tackle Striver's template, which seems to me to present a Shi'a-centric view of the whole issue. He seems also to have started a number of sub-articles that need to be checked for bias. Zora22:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Editing a related article: Ghadir Khumm
The article for "Ghadir Khumm" has been tagged as possibly needing cleanup to improve quality SINCE DECEMBER 2005. I can't fix it since I don't know anything about it (that's why I looked it up). Can someone go fix it? I posted this here since I thought maybe this discussion forum got more traffic than the article for Ghadir Khumm and so my message would get noticed sooner.
Point of debate
"The Sunni argue that Ali must have been on good terms with Umar, or he would not have given his daughter in marriage to Umar or given some of his sons by his other wives the names Abu Bakr and Umar."
There is no overwhelming evidence to prove this claim. It should be here and left for debate.
Referring to Sunni Majority in Intro?
"The largest denomination in Islam, the Sunnis..." Surely referring to the size of the Sunni denomination immediately before outlining their basic belief re. the succession of Muhammad is superfluous and counterproductive. Firstly, anyone navigating to this page will probably know that fact (or could easily find it out on a more appropriate page), and secondly it is putting an implicit 'bigger is better' argument in there. I'll leave it up to others to debate it, it just struck me as slightly partisan and not needed. There is another instance of this in 'The Shi'a view to the Succession', with "In the end, however, it was Abu Bakr who assumed control of the Muslim community." Again, already mentioned earlier and gives an implicit tone that Bakr was elected in spite of Ali's obvious supremacy, in a manner that seems POV to me. Sithemadmonkey15:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
and I am going to slowly re-write the majority of it. "Umar roamed the streets with his warriors"? Please note that any unsourced POV statements is going to be deleted. Thank you. Unflavoured05:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that you learn more about history before attempting to "rewrite" the article, a good starting point will be The Succession to Muhammad by Wilferd Madelung. As for the supposed "unsourced POV statements" in this article, see what the eminent historian has to say about it:
In Medina, Umar took charge of securing the pledge of allegiance of all residents. He dominated the streets with the help first of the Aslam and then the Abd Al-Ashhal of Aws who in contrast to the majority of Khazraj, quickly became vigorous champions of the new regime. The sources mention the actual use of force only with respect to Companion Al- Zubayr who had been together with some others of the Muhajirun in the house of Fatima. Umar threatened to set the house on fire unless they came out and swore allegiance to Abu Bakr"
(Wilferd Madelung, The Succession To Muhammad, p 43, Cambridge University Press)
It's not needed. It is a good thing, but strictly not needed, we shall not be afraid of disturbing some "harmony", but the article is so POV that some formulations can be changed immediately, such as f.ex.:
However, the six Sunni books remain a trusted source, with Shi'a sects filtering out the Ahadith that they consider to have been related from untrustworthy companions.
Formulations like that are bad. What do the shia do? Do they have another Ahadith that is as legitimate as the Sunni one, or don't they use Ahadith? Many of the statements are unclear, and the facts can be searched for one by one and the edits can be started immediatelly. (Me ref2 bebold!) Said: Rursus☻05:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Since when has the word Mawla been translated as master? Let us look to the Quran, and see if this translation makes any sense whatsoever:
"...then verily, Allah is his (Muhammad [s]'s) mawla, and Jibreel, and the righteous among the believers, and furthermore the angels are his helpers."
- Surat Al Tahreem, Ayah 4
"That is because Allah is the mawla of those who believe, and the disbelievers have no mawla."
- Surat Muhammad, Ayah 11
"So this Day no ransom shall be taken from you, nor of those who disbelieved. Your abode is the Fire, That is you mawla, and worst indeed is that destination."
- Surat Al Hadeed, Ayah 15
So Allah, Jibreel and the righteous among the believers are our beloved Muhammad [s]'s MASTER?
Allah is the MASTER of the believers, but the disbelievers don't have a MASTER?
Hell-Fire is the people of the Fire's MASTER?
Check the whole Quran, the word mawla, is never used in the sense of master nor leadership.
Neutrality
This article has substantial neutrality issues wherein the prose appears to side with one particular perspective, especially when depicting the main characters involved in this topic such as Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali and so on. The section on academic views again is slanted as the coverage fails to represent the diverse views present and instead dwells on the opinion of one particular writer. ITAQALLAH23:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes. I propose starting with comparison statements like "sunni say/do this, shia say/do that" where POV is more likely to show up. Then, statements agreeing with the writers opinion tend to lack citations, while those in disagreements tend to have. I therefore also propose reviewing the needs of more citations. Said: Rursus☻05:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Please translate this!
Please translate:
أما والله لقد تقمصها ابن أبي قحافة وإنه ليعلم أن محلي منها محل القطب من الرحى ... فسدلت دونها ثوبا وطويت عنها كشحا... أرى تراثي نهبا، حتى مضى الأول لسبيله فأدلى بها إلى ابن الخطاب بعد ...(في بعض من النسخ كتب فلان بدل ابن أبي قحافة و ابن الخطاب)"
I renamed section Notes which contained criticism of the succession concept to Criticism of the succession concept. The concept can be criticised, but then outside sources doing so (religious in accord with the rest of the article) is needed to get the section float. If not, it is a personal comment in the article, and not needed (but please wait for a while...). Said: Rursus☻05:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
SUXX: An overview of events
Somehow this section ends out "proving" that the sunni were perfectly right and Ali a mere manipulative obstructor. I don't believe a shit of that. The section is narrating, but it shouldn't. It should present a context, like the known events (that everybody agrees to, I mean everybody!), and having done that, superficially presenting at least two sequences of events, one claimed by sunni, one claimed by shia (then for fun throw in some more, didn't the Druses have yet another view?), and explaining to the reader what the discussion issues are, not tell us a story disregarding different opinions on the matter. Said: Rursus☻06:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
To stress it: the article is not about the truth behind the succession to Muhammad, it's about the religious debate around the succession to Muhammad, WP is agnostic, and only reflects outside debates in a balanced way. Said: Rursus☻06:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
First line edited
I have edited the first line of this article which read as if the successor was the next Prophet of Islam. We all know that Muhammad (SAW) was the final Prophet. It now reads as if the sucessor took over the Muslim leadership. 78.105.224.176 (talk) 22:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC) AN
Who an earth is responsible for the section on Ali coming out with his sword drawn? The reference to Madelung talks of Al-Zubayr coming out with his sword drawn, stumbling and losing it. There is no mention of Ali drawing his sword or being disarmed by Umar and his followers. I'll come back to this in a few days, if anyone else gets the time a correction is in order. Superpie (talk) 21:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Seems like the Shia section of Muhammad's illness has a good portion of sunni text material. considering to merge some of the common stuff
Nerrf (talk) 07:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Abandon ship all ye who enter here
Let me say at the beginning that I don't want to cause trouble. Yes, I am a product of the Euro-American civilization, and I am not a Muslim. I have a doctoral degree. I use wikipedia daily and by and large, it's a satisfying read and full of facts. I see a fairly good article here, as far as I can tell (and I don't have any personal knowledge or schooling in this but it seems to me that a lot of basic facts are in dispute, which is fine with me as long as the subject is treated objectively), and then I look at the discussion pages and what do I see? Shia/Sunni catfight! You guys, Zora, Aladdin, and Zereshk and some others are simply reiterating your beliefs instead of discussing the facts, arguing questions of Sunni vs. Shia doctrine, talking about irrelevancies (or so they appear to me) like Qom (the meta-discussion on POV), questions of lineage (including your own), flaming each others' lack of knowledge, absurdities about the lowliest state university library in Arkansas vs. Harvard, and so on and so forth, until I don't know whether to laugh or puke, and I'm only part way down the page. This is not the way discussions are held. As I said earlier, I am not a Muslim, and perhaps that gives me an ability to look at this discussion more objectively, from the outside, as it were. What I see here in microcosm, if you will excuse me for saying it, are the problems that make the Middle East into a perpetual war zone. The discussion pages of articles on other religious faiths do not exhibit the degree or the amount of vituperative pseudo-discussion and insulting condescension that I see here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Christian ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Paganism) THEREFORE I PROPOSE one thing: This article should contain a section, or a sentence at least, that states the obvious fact, that the argument over the Succession to Muhammad, and all the political and doctrinal ramifications of it, is the reason that Shias and Sunnis are bombing and killing each other to this very day. I do not want to add such a sentence. I am looking for consensus. I want the Muslims here to stand back, and look at what they have written here, and perhaps look at their world (original research -- forbidden!), and find sources (which I suspect will come from outside the Muslim culture) and agree with me that this article should mention that fact. And let us have peace. 24.27.25.87 (talk) 21:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC) Eric
Sunni Views section vs. Shia Views Section
There is a Sunni section for Sunni Views and there is a Shia Section for Shia Views - yet many parts of the Sunni sections include disussion of the Shia views - this makes no sense whatsoever - the whole reason for having two different sections is to keep the views of each group to their own sections - thus, when you look at the Shia section, there is no mention or discussion of Sunni views, as it should be. Therefore, i will remove any and all Shia views that are included in the Sunni views section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SearchAllWays (talk • contribs) 17:13, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Succession to Muhammad's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
From Abu Bakr: Akbar Shah Najeebabadi, The history of Islam. B0006RTNB4.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡23:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
from Wilferd Madelung's book (The Succession to Muhammad, pp. 43-44)
"In spite of Umar's claim that the necks of all Muslims were stretched out for Abu Bakr, the situation of the caliph was at first highly precarious, and not only because of the ridda of numerous tribes. In Medina Umar took charge of securing the pledge of allegiance of all residents. He dominated the streets with the help of first of the Aslam and then Abd al-Ashhal of Aws who, in contrast to the majority of Khazraj, quickly became vigorous champions of the new regime. The sources mention the actual use of force only with respect to the Companion al-Zubayr who had been together with some others of the Muhajirun in the house of Fatima. Umar threatened to set the house on fire unless they came out and swore allegiance to Abu Bakr. Al-zubayr came out with his sowrd drawn, but stumbled and lost it, whereupon Umar's men jumped upon him and carried him off. There is some evidence that the house of Fatima was searched(futtisha). Ali is reported to have later repeatedly said that had there been forty men with him he would have resisted. To what extent force was used in other cases must remain uncertain. In general the threat of it was probably sufficient to induce the reluctant to conform. Isolated reports about the use of force against Ali and the Banu Hashim who according to al-Zhuri, unanimously refused to swear allegiance for six months are probably to be discounted. Abu Bakr no doubt was wise enough to restrain Umar from any violence against them, well realizing that this would inevitably provoke the sense of solidarity of the majority of Ab Manaf whose acquiescence he needed. His policy was rather to isolate the Banu Hashim as far as possible. Aisha's comment that the prominent people ceased to speak to Ali until acknowledged his mistake and pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr is significant. The banu Hashim thus found themselves in a situation strangely reminiscent of the boycott that the pagan Mekkans organized against them in order to force them to withdraw their protection from Muhammad. This time, however, it was the Muslims putting pressure on them to abandon their support of Ali who in contrast to Muhammad gave in surrendering his claim after the death of Fatima." --Kazemita1 (talk) 02:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
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It seems the entire justification for shia doctrine is sourced to Allameh Tabatabaei, a highly partisan shia scholar. Books by other partisan sources may not be used as sources for quoted Hadiths, because they are unverifiable for an internet encyclopedia. They may, however, be mentioned as "shia references" at the end of the article. Unless you can provide links to neutral scholarly and/or journalistic sources that can verify these hadeeths (both Sunni and Shia), I am deleting them (after hearing Talk responses). Also, I checked out the quranic versus cited in the article, they have nothing at all to do with Ali or the succession; please explain this. Also, please do not create empty section titles. We can use a stub template, and enter the sections when we actually have information to put in them. --AladdinSE 03:15, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't started adding sources because I am in the middle of reading The Succession to Muhammad by Wilferd Madelung, the Laudian Professor of Arabic at Oxford. It is a meticulously researched work that finds a great deal of merit in some Shi'a claims. I'm not sure a Shi'a would like it -- it is resolutely secular and analyzes events in terms of power (military and economic) and the old pre-Islamic beliefs about government and kinship.
I'm also impressed by Madelung's approach to the hadith. He's willing to use them, but he limits his sources to the very earliest written collections, and he is quite willing to believe that the narrators and transmitters are lying or shading the truth. This strikes me as a middle way between accepting the work of Muslim scholars uncritically, and throwing everything out as useless and biased.
Anyway, Madelung pulls most of his evidence from standard sources like Ibn Ishaq and Tabari. So you can't just dismiss Zereshk, Aladdin, as taking his sources from late, untrustworthy sectarian traditions. I don't think Zereshk has presented his hadith sources in a form that's optimal for reading, but that's a separate matter.
Please don't go deleting things. Rework and rewrite. Zora 04:57, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You dont set the rules here. And you cannot and will not unilaterally erase whatever I write.
I am far more knowledgeable about Shi'a beliefs than you are. As you said, you are not even muslim. You do not know what we believe in.
Your remarks and edits are so erroneous, so wrong, and so off the mark that I dont know where to begin with.
Now listen closely. Zora, this is for you too. Here's your chance to learn about the Shi'a:
1. Tabatabaei is not a partisan scholar at all. Some may think so. ButQomdoes not. And I hope you know that Qom is the most active center of Shi'a scholarship today. Even more than Najaf. In fact, Qom officially endorses his book. (website belongs to The Islamic Propagation Office of the Islamic Seminary of Qom.)
2. His book, which you find "partisan and POV", is edited and translated by Seyyed Hosein Nasr, one of the world's leading academic scholars on Islam.
3. If Tabatabaei was partisan, the largest Shi'a websites on the internet wouldnt be using/publishing his works either. (Example of Website that does: http://www.al-islam.org/) ( example 2 )
4. Interestingly, The Al-Mizan website specifically endorses the book you call "partisan": The book "Shi'ite Islam" serves as a good means of removing popular misconceptions about the Shi'ah and can pave the way for a better inter-sectarian understanding among Muslim schools.
5. Aside from that book, Qom officially recognizes the hadith documentation I listed. They are listed here: [16]
6. As for why those Quranic verses indicate Ali's succession to Muhammad, in the view of the Shi'a, see page 177,178 of "Shi'ite Islam" that I referenced ( online version ). And as I said, this book is officially endorsed by Qom.--Zereshk 06:20, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, you're shooting yourself in the foot here, because Qom is simply not a credible source for impartial scholarship. A valid source for Shi'a opinion, yes, just as the Vatican is a valid source for Roman Catholic opinion, just as al-Azhar is a valid source for Sunni opinion.
But let's not delete all of the Shi'a sources. We probably should delete SOME, and keep only the best, but we'll get to that later. It's early days yet. I'll add a section of academic sources when I have time. Sheesh, you guys are so impatient. Zora 06:53, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, you don't even READ. I have given no details about myself, you have no idea if I'm Sunni, Shia. Christian, Agnostic, atheist, Wiccan or anything else. Unlike you, I'm not here on Wikipedia to promote my own system of beliefs. You can't go barging into Islam articles declaring that know more about Shia than anyone else. Here on Wikipedia you are no better qualified then anyone else. My I'm grateful for your rants above, because they give an accurate picture of your POV-pushing attitude. All those accolades you mentioned were for Seyyed Hossein Nasr when it was Tabatabaei that I described as extremely biased, Nasr only translated his work, which initself remains highly partisan. As Zora said, Qom is hardly a neutral endorsement. Your work can and will be edited and erased by any editor on Wikipedia as long as it continues to exhibit this extreme emotional shia-centric bias. As for deleting Shia sources, I have no problem with keeping any that are scholarly and actually hyper-linked and can be verified by any reader or editor. Published books can be listed in a "further reading" section but are useless in the body of the article. In case it has escaped your notice, this is an internet encyclopedia.
Now, agian, please pay attention to how you organize the Talk section. When a new section is created, please reply within that section without a separate "reply to AladdinSE" which seems designed to create a personal antagonism with another editor. --AladdinSE 07:29, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that I agree with you, AladdinSE, re following the #$%@#$%@# indented wiki style for discussion. It's a pain. Especially when things get indented three or four levels. I wish we had a Usenet style thread system or a PHP forum instead. As long as it's readable ... why fuss over form HERE? Zora 08:08, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with usenet so I can't reply to that comment, but as for indentation, as you can see I generally don't indent beyond the previous editor's post, I let it alternate between a regular post followed by an indented post then a regular post and so on. Section titles, followed by numerous dividers and page breaks, are much more of a pain than that. You don't agree? --AladdinSE 12:38, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
You clearly demonstrate your infinitesimal knowledge about the Shi'a faith: Qom is clearly the world's most active center of Shi'a scholarship. That's not even open for discussion.
Nasr was the personal student of Tabatabaei for many years. Did you know that? He wrote the introduction and footnotes of his book, and actually added the reference parts to it, including many of the Hadiths I gave. Where else do you think I got these Hadiths from? (Only Nasr knows how to spell them so meticulously correct in English)
Even non-Qom sources of Taqleed endorse Tabatabaei. The book you consider "highly partisan" actually appears in its entirety on the website of Grand Ayatollah Khoei. ( see )
Do you even realize what absurdity youre saying? Do you even know what an "Allama" is? There are only 2 or 3 Allamas in every generation. Look over here. How many Allamas do you count out of all those "prominent ulema"? (Our "highly partisan" Allama is there!)
Oh, and BTW, Did I tell you that my great grandfather, Grand Ayatollah Shirazi, also endorsed Tabatabei? I uploaded this picture just for you. :)
Good lord, you really have no idea how Wikipedia works, do you. It doesn't matter if your grandfather was a grand Ayotollah or a janitor, you are equal to everyone else here. What's more, Qom and those sources you're so proud of are blatantly shia-biased. That is the point you fail to grasp, not that they are qualified to comment on Shia doctrine, but that they are ill-qualified to be neutral on the issue of the Succession to Muhammad. Nevertheless I thank you for mentioning all this info, because if this matter ever went into arbitration, this will be essential evidence of your bias and predisposition. Also, is there any particular reason why you wiki-link my user name everytime you refer to me? As you can see I sign all my posts so you don't need to do that. In fact it's rather distracting because it potentially confuses readers who look for wiki-linked user IDs in signatures. --AladdinSE 12:38, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
OK. Here's one more try.
Here's what you fail to grasp, my incredibly un-knowledgable AladdinSE:
We werent talking about whether or not Qom is "ill-qualified to be neutral on the issue of the Succession to Muhammad". We were talking about whether or not Qom is qualified to present the ***Shi'a view*** on the Succession of Mohammad. (Which it 200% certainly is). If that were not the case, we wouldnt be putting different sections for Sunni and Shi'a views on the Succession to Muhammad page.
Remember, you have been entirely deleting stuff out of sections devoted to "Shi'a viewpoints". You can hardly talk about 'neutrality' there, because The Shi'a viewpoint is biased as opposed to the Sunni, naturally. That's why we separated them in the first place.
But you have been repeatedly deleting the central beliefs of Shi'as....in "The Shi'a viewpoint" sections....on pages about or directly related to Shi'as....that are quoted by Shi'a's top scholars. That is the epitome of sheer arrogance. Specially from someone who says he's not even a muslim.--Zereshk 13:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It's so sad that you cannot conduct a civilized discussion without childish remarks like "your infinitesimal knowledge" and "my incredibly un-knowledgable." Your sources are verbose and unverifiable, and you refuse to provide hyper-linked cites. It is not the central beliefs of Shias being deleted, but the un-encyclopedic flooding of articles with enormous extracts from books by highly partisan Shia scholars and Ayotollahs. You also chose to antagonize and condescend to fellow editors, by insisting on wiki-linking my user name despite my request, and using a phrase like "OK. Here's one more try," as if you were conversing with a child. If you stop taking all of this personally like some sort of contest of wills, we'll get our work done much faster and with more civility. By the way don't you think it's rather redundant to link to the Succession to Muhammad article in your last comment? After all this is the Talk page of that same article. You seem over-fond of wiki-linking. Lastly, as for my religious beliefs... are you being deliberately obtuse? I have made no representation of any faith or lack thereof at any point on any Talk page. You know nothing about me, and this information is none of you business. You don't even know if I am male or female. It's completely irrelevant. This is why you are so biased in your edits, you are a Shia first and foremost. Here, I am a Wikipedian first and foremost. --AladdinSE 14:22, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, you seem to be confusing "editing your presentation" with disrespect to the Shi'a. You can have impeccably Shi'a views but still have less-than-perfect skill at setting out your ideas in a way that actually communicates with and informs others -- which is the PURPOSE of what we're doing here. This is an encyclopedia, knowledge lite. It's a collection of introductions to various subjects, along with links and references that allow those who are interested to explore further. The articles have to be accessible to the general reader. Your huge lumps of hadith references aren't. It's not disrespect to the Shi'a to point that out. Zora 18:11, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with Aladdin's insistence on hyperlinked cites. Books can and should be used as references here (see Wikipedia:Cite_sources#Books; if anything, I'd be more tempted to ban the use of Internet pages as sources!) and are verifiable by simply finding a good library. However, partisan sources should be marked appropriately: if a hadith is accepted by Shia and not by Sunnis (or vice versa), it should be described as such, not simply as what "the prophet says". - Mustafaa 18:36, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Good point Mustafaa. I too dont trust electronic sources either, if they are not backed up by hard copy references. The academia doesnt either. Unfortunately, Zora and AladdinSE have been censoring any and all hadith from wikipedia under the grounds that they are "unrelaible", "POV", or now, "unaccessible". Ive had to put up a big fight to keep the Hadith on this page. I would have done the same for Sunni hadith, billahi.--Zereshk 13:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
zora, you are wrong again. I can give 10 references in English that cite that Hadith I have put in. With ISBN# and all. Published by western printers. In fact the "lumps of hadith references" all by themselves are available as well. All one needs is a library that has an "Inter Library Loan" department. And even the lowliest state university in Arkansas has that. How else do you think I was able to get my hands on original documents from Harvard Wiedener Library, like the ones below?
Also Zora, do you realize the level of arrogance required to say: "Qom is simply not a credible source for impartial scholarship"? Striving for Impartiality is one thing, dis-allowing the Shi'a perspective to be presented aside other views (which you and AladdinSE have been doing) is another. Qom is THE LARGEST single center for Islamic study in the world, even larger than Al-Zahra, and as such, their position is certainly valid in separate sections of the Succession to Muhammad page devoted to "The Shi'a view". That's all Im saying.
AladdinSE, You started disrespecting me by unilaterally blanking out my every input based on your personal agenda. So dont lecture us about "disrespect". I can readily comb through the list of insults youve hurled at me. Also, hyper-links are not always academically acceptable because they can be from subjective unverifiable websites. To be verifiable, they would have to bear some proof of officiality, or refer to actual hardcopy documented sources, which I have already done in abundance. That you dont find my sources acceptable is your personal agenda problem. 200 million Shi'as do. Also, I will write in a style and format that I please. Stop bossing people around. Youre not John R. Bolton. And finally, on 02:44, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC) on the Ali talk page, you said: "Do not even assume that I am Muslim, much less Sunni." I'm only holding you responsible for your own words.--Zereshk 13:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also, it would be great if one of our Sunni members would help out, and enhance the Sunni documentation section, so that the Shi'a viewpoint wont look dominant (because it looks better). Instead of deleting The Shi'a section, let's add to the Sunni section. Shukran.--Zereshk 13:43, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know what I said, and you seem to be deliberately persisting in obtuseness. What can you mean by saying you are "holding me responsible for my own words"??? All I said was that you do not know what I am, you have no right to assume, nor should you be interested, that I am Sunni, Shia, or even Muslim, because that information is 1. none of your business and 2. utterly irrelevant. I most certainly did not blank out your every word based on any agenda. This is your main problem: everything to you is a contest of wills and a personal quarrel. You cannot conceive that other editors might delete stuff without actually being anti-Shia or anti-Zereshk. As for you, you have made your pro-Shia bias abundandtly clear, even go so far as to boast of your family connections. Well, that has no import whatsoever in Wikipedia. About references and links: books of course can be used as references, and as I clearly said, what is objectionable is huge verbatim extracts that have no place in an encyclopedia. Editors have to condense such material into article form with reasonable quotations. Look at any encyclopedia... do you see a huge listings of verbatim Hadiths or similar text just splayed out with no editorial comment? Of course not! There has to be condensation with reasonable and limited quotation. What you did was just dump huge extracts with no form or style whatsoever. As for hyper-links, they are essential in an internet encyclopedia not as replacements for "book references", but as sources of journalistic or scholarly comment that provides a source for legitimacy of the authors being quoted as well as preventing original research. For example, you provide no linked sources that verify that so and so Shia scholars claim that so and so Hadiths prove so and so claims. Finally, would you please stop inserting unnecessary pictures into Talk comments this section is already becoming unwieldy. --AladdinSE 23:38, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
The list I already provided is condensed. Shi'as use hundreds of Hadith in fact, in support of Ali's claim to succession. The 10-12 Hadiths I listed were the cream of the crop. Why dont you provide us with an equivalent Sunni documentation and make us all happy, instead of ravaging Shi'a sections?
I will write in the style I please. In fact, YOUR style of writing is a sore to the eye; it involves too many indentations, and cannot be easily accessed by intra-page links. I will paste images to help get my point across whenever I wish.
In the absence of hyperlinked references, hard copy references cannot and should not be deleted. Having the references hyper-linked is merely an advantage, not a must. As you saw, Mustafaa also does not agree with hyper-linked references.--Zereshk 01:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is clearly no civilized discussion to be had with you. All you have to say is I'll do as I wish and all you see is personalized conflicts and your will prevailing over all. You confuse condensation with mere limitation of sources. Condensation means you take material from sources and reformat it into narrative form, as opposed to just dumping huge verbatim extracts into the article. As for providing "Sunni documentation," have you ever thought about doing that yourself? Has the idea of being a neutral contributor even crossed your mind ONCE? All you can do is cut and paste huge expanses of Shia text and point and brag about your grandfather and put up pictures of him (in TALK for heaven's sake), but you have not inserted one syllable of cognitive, descriptive narrative that makes any of it readable or relevant. I'll leave our styles of writing for the world to judge. Determining which is the eyesore, both in the article and in Talk, I'm confident will be consistent. --AladdinSE 08:35, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
References
Biased referenced material
Much of the referenced material is from Wilferd Madelung from the Institute for Ismaili Studies in London who is on the pay roll of Aga Khan who thinks it is his god given right to rule because he is Alis descendent. They are biased references.
Verses from the Quran like Verse 33:30 to 33:33 which referes to Muhamands wives are twisted. They even say "O wives of the Prophet..."
There are also many different versions of these hadith. You could twist them to suit your own interests.
" 46.3 Yahya related to me from Malik that he heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I have left two things with you. As long as you hold fast to them, you will not go astray. They are the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet.".
There are also other versions of this Hadith that say:
“
"I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56..
”
For this reason Muslims regard the Quran as the most authentic book in Islam. Many of the other books were written between 100 and 300 years after Muhammad. There had been oral transmission from generation to generation until then. Muwatta[1] by Malik ibn Anas is the earliest of these books.
The Quran is earliest and the most authentic book in Islam.
The Quran is accepted as the most authentic book in Islam and therefore any other book or text that contradicts with the Quran is not accepted as the truth. All the other books were written decades and in most cases centuries after Muhammad.
"O mankind, indeed I have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted"
Kazemita1 what is the point of removing the views of Western scholars from this page. You recently removed the text below:
Modern Western scholars are much less likely than Sunni Islamic scholars to trust the work of the Abbasid historians. Western historians approach the classic Islamic histories with varying degrees of circumspection.
In The Great Arab Conquests, Hugh Kennedy writes: [1] "A characteristic of these anecdotes is what has been described as onomatomania, the obsession with knowing the names of the participants involved in events. The problem for the historians is that these lists frequently contradict each other. Furthermore, there are some examples in which later versions of a story seem to have access to more names than earlier ones do. This is deeply suspicious for modern historical sensibilities. In some cases the names are clearly preserved by the descendants and fellow tribesmen of the participants. In the seventh century it was a matter of considerable practical importance. If your father or grandfather had participated in those first glorious battles, Qudisiya in Iraq or Yarmuk in Syria, you benefited in both money and status. By the mid eighth century these relationships had largely lost their practical value. No one, except the members of the ruling family and sometimes the descendants of the Prophet or Ali, continued to benefit from this system."[2]
You also removed other text on these events by Western scholars like:
In The Great Arab Conquests, Hugh Kennedy writes: [3]
<Long verbatim quote from copyright work removed. Our copyright policy proscribes such quotations on talkpages too, as far as I know. I'm not crazy about the shorter quote above, either. Bishonen | talk15:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC).> [4]
The quotes were given and the authors name was also give. This page is already full of references from Wilferd Madelung from the Institute for Ismaili Studies in London who is on the pay roll of Aga Khan. Then you removed referenced material from early Shia books when this page is already full of other primary sources. May be we need to remove all the content, from biased Muslim sources and show what it is all about as Hugh Kennedy puts it "This is deeply suspicious for modern historical sensibilities. In some cases the names are clearly preserved by the descendants and fellow tribesmen of the participants. In the seventh century it was a matter of considerable practical importance. If your father or grandfather had participated in those first glorious battles, Qudisiya in Iraq or Yarmuk in Syria, you benefited in both money and status. By the mid eighth century these relationships had largely lost their practical value. No one, except the members of the ruling family and sometimes the descendants of the Prophet or Ali, continued to benefit from this system"
May be this whole page needs to be rewritten. This page reads as if Muhammad created Islam to make sure that his descendants could rule. Where as it appears to say nothing like that in the Quran or any of the early books. Both early Sunni and Shia books say Ali was a humble human being. Kazemita1 you even removed Shia texts that shows Ali was a humble human being. You even removed:
According to early Shia books Ali later wrote in a letter "I did not approach the people to get their oath of allegiance but they came to me with their desire to make me their Amir (ruler). I did not extend my hands towards them so that they might swear the oath of allegiance to me but they themselves extended their hands towards me".[5]
Hassans main negotiator when he was negotiating with Muawiya said Muhammad once told him "if a man wants to rule and becomes a ruler, Allah judges him, if a man is asked by other to rule, Allah helps him" It looks like that is how both Ali and Hassan behaved. They appeared to be honest, god fearing, humble human beings. They looked at the big picture. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 23:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
We all need to work together to improve the articles on Wikipedia. This article is being used to push views on if Ali should have been the first caliph or the third caliph 1400 years ago. The article needs to be neutral and objective. The reason why I included the extract from Hugh Kennedy's book was because it provided a neutral and objective commentary and was not from a Muslim source. This whole article needs to be looked at and needs to be scholarly. May be it needs to be rewritten. The article argues about events that occurred 1400 years ago. The books written about those events were written 300 years after the events. The reason I included some text from the primary sources was because these were the earliest books that I could find talking about these events. There is more common ground in the early Sunni and Shia books on these events and they are more neutral. The position of both the Sunnis and the Shias has diverged considerably over the last 1400 years and that has resulted in arguments on this article. The article is being used as a forum to push their modern views. The article is being used to push divergent views to create conflict, where as the reality is most likely more in the middle. That is why both the Sunnis and the Shias respect Ali and according to both the early Sunni and Shia books Ali appears to have adopted and raised Abu Bakr's son Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr, when Abu Bakr passed away (Nahjul Balaagha Letter 35). According to both early Sunni and Shia books their children and grand children inter married (Al-Kâfî, Ar-Rawdah, 8:101). 1400 years later, this article is being used to push views that have diverged considerably, from the views held in the early books. The article needs to be neutral and objective. There is a lot of common text in both early Sunni and Shia books that is not being included on this article because it does not benefit the people pushing their views, on this article. Many of these people are buried in the Al-Baqi grave yard in Madina. These are photos of a family tree diagram of these people and how their children intermarried. Photos taken at the entrance of the Al-Baqi grave yard this years. The diagram has all the references. The references include both Sunni and Shia books. File:Companionsfamilytree.jpg
Kazemita1 removed a lot of other text, much of which was already on the page and retained Wilfred Madelung text even though that also falls into the same category, just because it pushes his views and he could use it to create conflict. He objected to me using primary sources to show the common ground, when the whole article is already full of primary sources. The article needs to be objective and neutral --Johnleeds1 (talk) 17:39, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Full Disclosure: User:Johnleeds1 requested my comments on this article. Anyway, User:Kazemita1, I hope my intrusion is acceptable to both you and John. I admit up front that I am actually not familiar with this article and I don't think I have edited it before. I will try not to be directly involved in the content as I'm sure it would take a lot of time on my part to get up to speed.
Instead, I want to ask John, can you summarize the differene of opinion as you explained it above in a few main points? Kazemite, can you summarize your opinion in a few main points? Not a debate, I'm actually asking you guys a favor to help me know what's going on. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:29, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, do. Johnleeds1, bringing up an unrelated matter concerning Kazemita1 is utterly misplaced on this talkpage, which like other talkpages is "for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects)." (Italics in the original.) Compare the talkpage guideline. I've removed the irrelevance. If you need to make that remark, Johnleeds1 (though I really can't imagine why, or what good it can do, as Wikipedia is not a battlefield), please do so on Kazemita's user talkpage. Bishonen | talk22:34, 3 April 2014 (UTC).
Adding: In the interest of evenhandedness, I don't think Kazemita's mention of John's block was necessary or called for either. Please don't mention such things here, Kamezita, as it may be seen as baiting. But at least it did relate to editing of Succession to Muhammad. Bishonen | talk22:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC).
Yes, the block incidence that I mentioned above was due to the very edit committed by Johnleeds which I had reverted and which was disputed by MezzoMezzo above. I was trying to prove the legitimacy of what I had done on the grounds that admins also had found the reverted edit to be a violation of Wikipedia policies. Let me know if it was not a good practice Bishonen.--Kazemita1 (talk) 05:28, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Anyway lets move on to improving this page. The Succession to Muhammad page is very confusing to the average reader. We need to improve the page so that it contain researched scholarly content, that is useful to the reader. It will be good if there is a critical analysis of what has been said regarding this subject. Various books have been written, on this subject, through out the ages and this content needs to be put into a table, so that people could compare, what was said when and by whom and why and how the ideas evolved. Additionally there needs to be analysis of why there is disagreement and who benefits and why. It will be good if everyone gets together and improves the Succession to Muhammad page so that an average reader could see what is going on. People need to have an open mind and look at everything. It will be good to include time lines, showing how the peoples opinions changed over time and what was said by whom and why and how they benefited. As people have said in the past, it may even require a re-write, where everyone takes part and presents their evidence and presents their references and hopefully we could improve the article. First we need to collect as much material as possible, from all the sources, including early non Muslim sources. The Roman chroniclers also took notes on these events, during their time and their material could also be analyzed. Then we need to go through everything in detail. The administrators need to be involved in this process, so that we take a scholarly approach. Every one needs to be involved. It could take a long time, but we will need a lot of time to carry out detailed research into a subject as complex as this. One of the complexities we will face is that many of the books that have references to these events were written 100 to 300 years after these events and the opinions changed over time. There was oral transmission until these things were written down and therefore the transmission of this information was subject to distortion over time. Even slight distortions could amplify overtime and result in a huge divergence of opinions centuries later. This is evident if you consider that at that time Ali and Abu Bakr did not fight, over this subject, yet 1400 years later there is bloodshed in the streets of Syria. Innocent kids are dying. All too often many Muslims look at this subject from a modern Sunni or a modern Shia perspective and mindset and try to take what they like and ignore what they do not like. But we need to look at all this rationally and critically. Therefore critical analysis needs to be carried out of all the material. We need to look at the whole picture, the environment, the society and the various interest groups and tribe who lived at that time. We also need to look at the various interest groups and tribes later that wrote down these events and opinions. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:22, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Awesome suggestion; time and collective effort tends to make for better articles and lasting changes. So User:Johnleeds1, User:Kazemita1 and I guess our new referee User:Bishonen, how exactly shall this be done? Should we use somebody's sandbox (not mine, it's already being used) to develop a draft version of certain sections and discuss the sources and the best way to represent them while avoiding copyright and/or copypaste issues? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:40, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not qualified to referee a discussion here; I'm ignorant of the subject and purely here in an admin capacity (I came here via an ANI discussion). That is, I'm concerned with conduct rather than content. Hopefully there won't be any conduct problems in the discussion, and I don't think it would be particularly helpful if I kept interfering and wagging my finger.
I won't object if you want to use a sandbox to develop a draft version, but I will point out a risk, as compared to keeping discussion here on talk: that fewer people may see it — well-qualified people who might have helped. Sandboxes have advantages, too, but it would be a good idea to keep returning here for further input, to say what stage you're at, and to persistently link to where the discussion's at. And to try out finished suggestions in the article itself (with an edit summary to say that's what you're doing).
To create a well researched page, we need to do detailed research and collect everything. Especially content from chroniclers who lived at that time. It will be good to cross reference all the material, from Muslim and non Muslim sources, from that time. John. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 21:54, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Keep in mind you are supposed to use secondary sources here; not primary sources. Books written by historians of centuries ago are considered primary sources.--Kazemita1 (talk) 06:23, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Don't worry we will be using secondary sources. But what we have found with other articles in this area is that in many cases a lot of the arguments are because both the Sunnis and the Shias don't know what their own books say. Then when we include text from secondary sources, they delete everything and start arguing. Therefore some times you have to present the full facts and you have to show them the back ground to why the secondary sources reached their conclusions and you have to be fair and transparent. Once the full facts are in front of them and there is proper analysis of all the material and they could see why the secondary sources reached their conclusions, there are less arguments and the article becomes more stable. Or else the page gets used as a forum and becomes a platform for arguments. On a subject as complex as this, the secondary sources also differ. Therefore you have to present the evidence, that they used to back up their claims. Hence the reader could see the full evidence from both sides and the article becomes more stable. The page should be good enough for people to come to and learn something. It should have enough references for them to then check things them selves. This is about history and there are history books and many chroniclers have wrote about this subject over the last 1400 years. There needs to be a scholarly approach to this. To be honest, if you look at the pages Secondary source or Primary source they say that a Primary sources is the original material, that has not been altered or distorted in any way. A primary source is the original source of the information being discussed; a primary source can be a person with direct knowledge of a situation, or a document created by such a person. If you look at it that way, the only primary source for this is the Quran. But that does not say much about this subject. All the material written about these events was written hundreds of years later and non of the writers had any direct knowledge of the events and were not involved in the events. So everything needs to be analysed, scrutinised and cross referenced to create a professional, well researched, scholarly page. John. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 21:09, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
These events took place 1400 years ago therefore we can't possibly conduct original research on this subject. We can't possibly go back 1400 years and talk to Muhammad, Ali or Abu Bakr and conduct original research on this subject :) The only way to do that will be to build a time machine and I could assure you I personally do not know how to build a time machine :) The page original research says "The phrase original research is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." Well there have been books written and published on this subject for the last 1400 years. There are many modern books too. Since we can't go on a field trip 1400 years back in time and talk to the witnesses :) I guess the only option we have available to us is to go through the published books any way :) John --Johnleeds1 (talk) 21:31, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
To stabilize this page and reduce future arguments, it will be good to look at the common ground first. We need to have solid foundations to build a professional article on. Therefore the best way to improve this page will be to start off with what most people agree to be historically accurate, that:
Historians agree that Muhammad, Abu Bakr and Ali lived at the same time in Makkah, then moved to Madina.
Historians agree that Ali was Married to Muhammad's daughter
Historians agree that Muhammad was married to Abu Bakr's daughter
Both Ali and Abu Bakr helped Muhammad
The early Muslim community under Muhammad greatly helped the poor and paid for slaves to be freed and Abu Bakr also assisted Muhammad with this.
Abu Bakr was an old man when Muhammad passed away and both early Sunni and Shia books state that Ali then raised Abu Bakr's son Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr when Abu Bakr passed away. Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr later became Ali's general [6].
Both early Sunni and Shia books state that Ali was the chief judge and jurist and a senior member of the Muslim high command and the ruling committee in Madina during the time of Abu Bakr and Umar and worked with them to continue Muhammad's policy of spreading the belief in one God, monotheism after Muhammad passed away.
Historians agree that Abu Bakr grandson Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr and Ali's son Hussein both fought against Yazid.
Both early Sunni and Shia books state that members of Ali's and Abu Bakr's families intermarried [7].
Muslims believe that there is one God
Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God and respect the Quran and believe it to be more superior than any other book.
Muslim believe is Predestination, i.e. that "nothing will happen to us except what God has decreed for us"
Muslim believe that God is all powerful, all knowing and all seeing and that every thing that happens, could only happen if God allows it to happen.
Muslim believe that Muhammad is the last messenger of God
The Sunnis and the Shias both respect Ali, Fitima, Hassan and Hussein but feel that they are NOT prophets and are NOT Gods i.e. they are NOT divine. Both the Sunnis and the Shias believe that there is only one God.
If you disagree with any of this, just let me know, we could change it. Or if you want to add anything else that will help to improve this article just highlight it. There will be some minority sects that may not agree with some of these points. Some may have some additional beliefs but we don't want to presume things.
There is in fact a lot of common material on top of this.
The Quran also talks about these things:
Quran 6:159 : Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.
Ali was aware of this. There are many common speeches of Ali in both Sunni and Shia books against sectarianism. The most striking of these is this one found in both early Sunni and Shia books:
In which Ali says: "With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine."[8]
Ali had gone through all this during his life time too. The khawarij, the first sect in Islam, first loved him too much and elevated his status to the extremes. Then hated him too much and fought against him.
Once we have a solid foundation, we could build an enduring clear and professional article.
Clearly there are differences too, but if you look at everything collectively, the differences are minor and are promoted to cause conflict by a vocal minority. Once the article has a solid foundation, then we could go into the differences and show the history and the reasoning behind those. And there is a lot of history, interest groups, politics, money, taxes, tax revenues, power, a substantial pre-Islamic middle eastern history as a back ground. Many of the conflicts in the middle east predate Islam and even through Islam spread into those areas, the people still had a history of conflict. There were also the Roman–Persian Wars running for over 700 years until the Muslims defeated both the Romans and the Persians, but the people in those areas still hated one another. There were also cultural resistance movements in some places against Islam and some of that literature eventually found it self into Muslim history books too. I am sure we could build a good article that everyone will find useful, if we all work together --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:51, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate your efforts Johnleeds. Just keep in mind that Nahjul Balaghah, Al-Kafi, and essentially any book written centuries ago are not considered secondary reliable sources for this article. and if you find my statement hard to believe you are encouraged to ask about it in WP:RSN.--Kazemita1 (talk) 15:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I sited the above references just to show the common ground and lay the foundations to build a good article. It will take time to collect all the sources and build an enduring professional article. Kazemita1 I appreciate your comments. It will be good if every one works together on Wikipedia to improve the articles. It will be good if everyone keeps an open mind and looks at everything. Many Muslims appear to say that Islam means peace. Yet on this page, not much of that has been displayed. I worked on similar articles before and came across the logic that Hassan employed when he made peace. He was not power hungry, he wanted to save lives and he was peace loving and merciful. He did not like conflict. No one could say he was power hungry. Some people may criticize him for making peace, but he knew what he was doing. He is regarded as a great peace maker. I came across this in the Book of "Peacemaking" in Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 49 (Peacemaking), Number 867
Narrated by Al-Hasan Al-Basri
By Allah, Al-Hasan bin Ali led large battalions like mountains against Muawiyah I. Amr bin Al-As said (to Muawiya), "I surely see battalions which will not turn back before killing their opponents." Muawiya who was really the best of the two men said to him, "O 'Amr! If these killed those and those killed these, who would be left with me for the jobs of the public, who would be left with me for their women, who would be left with me for their children?" Then Muawiyah Isent two Quraishi men from the tribe of 'Abd-i-Shams called 'Abdur Rahman bin Sumura and Abdullah bin 'Amir bin Kuraiz to Al-Hasan saying to them, "Go to Al-Hasan and negotiate peace with him and talk and appeal to him." So, they went to Al-Hasan and talked and appealed to him to accept peace. Al-Hasan said, "We, the offspring of 'Abdul Muttalib, have got wealth and people have indulged in killing and corruption" They said to Al-Hasan, "Muawiya offers you so and so, and appeals to you and entreats you to accept peace." Al-Hasan said to them, "But who will be responsible for what you have said?" They said, "We will be responsible for it." So, what-ever Al-Hasan asked they said, "We will be responsible for it for you." So, Al-Hasan concluded a peace treaty with Muawiya. Al-Hasan (Al-Basri) said: I heard Abu Bakr saying, "I saw Allah's Apostle on the pulpit and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was by his side. The Prophet was looking once at the people and once at Al-Hasan bin 'Ali saying, 'This grandson of mine is noble and may Allah make peace between two big groups of Muslims through him."[9]
The year the peace treaty was signed, became know as "Aam ul-Jama ah". The year of the community.
This brought to an end the conflict that ran for over 700 years. The Syrians under the Romans and the Iraqis under the Persians had been fighting each other for over 700 year by then, in the Roman–Persian Wars and the Syrians and the Iraqis had so much hatred for one another that the conflict carried on even after the Muslims took. Later Muawiyah I ruled Syria and Hassan Iraq. It was finally brought to an end by this peace treaty.
So welcome was the peace that Hassan established that the Nestorian Christian, John bar Penkaye writing in the 690s, has nothing but praise for the peace that prevailed after this peace treaty he says 'the peace throughout the world was such that we have never heard, either from our fathers or from our grandparents, or seen that there had ever been any like it'" [10]
After the peace treaty with Muawiyah, Ibn Shawdhab is reported to have said that "Hassan hated to fight. his supporters would say to him "O Dishonour of the Believers!" So Hassan would reply to them "Dishonour is better than Hel-fire.".[11]
As I have mentioned earlier, sources that he is referring to such as Nahj al Balaghah, Al-Kafi, Ibn Katheer's book, Bukhari's book or any book in general that was written centuries ago does not qualify for a secondary reliable source for any historical article and this article is no exception. If you have doubts about this statement I encourage you to ask about it in WP:RSN. The only source mentioned by Johnleeds1 that "could" be used is the book by Hugh Kennedy; albeit after proper rephrasing and due weight.--Kazemita1 (talk) 04:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
User:Kazemita1, it's alright. I think you ought to calm down - nobody is attacking you here. As I said, I merely think that Johnleeds is making a suggestion about content. As for whether that content (and the sources it is based on) is appropriate, then that is a different issue.
While I tend to agree with your point here, perhaps Johnleeds has some sort of an explanation. Maybe he could say why he thinks those sources are appropriate, and those of you concerned with the article's content can discuss that and decide its merit. I mentioned a week or two ago that I personally don't want to be involved in the content discussion as it's been going on a while and jumping in now would take a lot of my time.
My comment is only to note that I don't think he's using the talk page as a forum. He is just making a suggestion, and regardless of whether or not his suggestion is appropriate he seems to be making it in good faith. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:01, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Kazemita1 don't worry I will be using secondary sources. I am just in the process of collecting all the books. This is a talk page after all and it is there for you to talk about this article :)
One of the main events listed in this article is the event that occurred in Ghadir Khumm, a location 250 km North of Mecca. I don't know if other people have also looking at the various books on these events, but they appear to say that this incident is linked to an incident that occurred in Yemen, involving Ali a month earlier. There was a battle in Yemen. The various books appear to say that Ali's men complained against Ali. By the time they got to Ghadir Khumm his men again complained against Ali and the texts say that Muhammad tried to defuse the conflict between Ali and his men at Ghadir Khumm. Both the early Sunni and Shia books appear to recount the events in Yemen and the men's complaints against Ali at Ghadir Khumm.
Shia books: Kitab al-Irshad, by Shaykh Mufid, pp.111-122
For example in this article, Musnad is given as a reference for the events at Ghadir Khumm. But if you look at the full text in these books, they refer to an incident in Yemen involving Ali and a slave-girl. So if references like these are used, then they should be used in accordance with the Wikipedia policy on the use of references and include the full story not just half of the story. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 23:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
That's right John. In taking to account the events at Ghadeer Khumm and the supposed succession of Ali' sunnis would tend to point out that statments of praise were issued as a response to this, as you yourself have discovered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibn Fulaan (talk • contribs) 01:50, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Hi Ibn Fulaan
I have been going through a lot of books and there is a huge amount of politics in this. The earlier the book, the more closely it matches the events listed in the Quran. For this reason many Western academics looks at the oldest books, especially those written in Madina like al muwatta by Imam Malik and books written by al waqidi. Academics also look at Ibn Hisham's book. There are also many Roman and other non Muslim books from the period that you could cross reference. There is also a lot of pre-Islamic Arab poetry that you could look at. If you go through Arab poetry written before Muhammad was born, you realise that the Arabs spent most of their time in tribal conflicts, fighting over watering holes. Then there were the blood feuds. The Arabs were an extremely disunited bunch and the Persians and the Romans just used them as mercenaries. Muhammad managed to unite them for a while. But many people simply overlook the tribal rivalries that just continued, after they converted to Islam. They would just resurfaced during civil wars.
To truly understand the dynamics, you have to know what tribe the person belonged to and their history. For example one tribe that is overlooked is the tribe of Thaqeef of Taif. This tribe was deeply hostile to Muhammad. According to Ibn Hisham the year Muhammad's wife and uncle died, he went to Taif to ask the people there to accept Islam. But they showered him with rocks.
Many years later their fortified city was besieged after they challenged and fought Muhammad in the battle of Hunayn, but the Muslims finally gave up. Then one of their chiefs converted to Islam and invited them to Islam but they killed him. After a few months they realized that since the other tribes are converting to Islam, it may be in their strategic interest to have an alliance with the Muslim and approached Muhammad but they did not want to give up worshiping their Idol Al-lāt. Later they did convert to Islam, but they had their own agenda. They would hedge their bets on all sides and go up all the power structures. Members of this tribe left a deep impression. The Umayyad Generals in Iraq including Mughira, Ziyad, Ibn Ziyad and Hajjaj were all from the tribe of Thaqeef of Taif. If you look at the people who actually killed Hussein, they were from the tribe of Thaqeef of Taif.
Mukhtar in Iraq was also from the tribe of Thaqeef of Taif.
Many of the splits and sects in Islam are as a result of the actions of these men. As they say here in England. If you can't beat them, join them. But the tribe of Thaqeef of Taif went one step further, If you can't beat them, join them, then divide them from the inside and rule.
The Sabaites, Qurra and the Kharijities were also an important factor in the formulation of all these splits in ideology. Considering Ali raised Abu Bakrs son Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr and that members of Ali's and Abu Bakr's families intermarried so much and people like Jafar Sadiq are a result of that, just makes one wonder if the difference amplified much later. People like Ibn Ziyad, Hijjaj and Mukhtar did the real work in creating the splits. Ibn Ziyads troops killed Hussein, Muhammads Grandson. His father Ziyad from the tribe of Thaqeef of Taif was Ali's general.
After Hussein was killed, Abu Bakrs grandson, Abdullah ibn Zubair took on Yazeed, the Ummayad ruler (Abdullah ibn Zubair was also Husseins second cousin as his father Zubair was Ali's cousin). Then Hijjaj killed Abdullah ibn Zubair and curisified him on a cross infront of the kaaba. Asma bint Abu Bakr said to Hijjaj "Verily the Prophet predicted that there would come from the tribe of Thaqeef of Taif a liar and a mubeer (destroyer). As for the liar we have already seen him and as for the mubeer (destroyer) I have no doubt that it is you"
Both the Sunni and Shia books talk about the tribe of Thaqeef of Taif. Even Shia books like The Qaem in the Quran, By Sayyid Hashim Al-Bahraani page 246 say that Imam Baqar said that "Bani Thaqeef participated in the spilling the blood of the members of the family of Prophet" referring to Karbala.
You have to go through a lot of very old books to see what actually happened and see the tribal dynamics. The tribe of Thaqeef of Taif finally lost their power when the Umayyad ruler Sulaiman moved against Hijajjs family and removed them from positions of power. He mistrusted them. Hijjaj had passed away earlier, during the rule of Al-Waleed bin Abdul Malik. Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz was Sulaiman advisor and had previously been the governor of Madian, he also hated Hijjaj and had earlier asked Al-Waleed bin Abdul Malik to ban Hajjaj from Madina, where Ali's family lived. So there is a lot of politics. In Madina Ali's family did have a level of protection.
Taif was also a place of exile for people Muhammad mistrusted like Marwan. First Muhammad exiled Marwan and we went to Taif. Then when Muhammad passed away Marwan went back to Madina and Abu Bakr then exiled him to Taif. Then when Abu Bakr passed away and he came back to Madina so Umar exiled him to Taif. When Umar passed away and he came back again and finally along with the Qura who later became the Khawarij after making every one else fight, Marwan finally became an Ummayad ruler.
Kinnda in the middle of exams so forgive me if my replies until the end of june (if this conversation goes on that long) are somewhat brief. That's an interesting perspective on it.
A few miscellaneous comments first, I'm 99% sure you seem to be mixing up the Battle of Hunayn with the Siege of Ta'if which (if my understanding is correct) were two separate battles although were linked. Secondly in addition to Ubayd Allah Ibn Ziyaad's participation in the incidents at Karbala which resulted in the death of some of Ahl Al Bayt if memory serves he previously ordered the death of Muslim Ibn Aqeel when the people of Kufa invited him for Bayah (pledge of allegiance). Thirdly in regards to the khawaarij (just FYI) you mentioned them as "Qurra", which means in arabic "The reciters" (of the Qur'an), they were known as such because they (you guessed it!) recited a lot of Qur'an which of course was not a trait specific to the khawaarij.
Now more specifically, it is only logical that tribal conflicts were to play an important place in the arab politics at the time given that now where the loyalty (if you like) is pledged to the nation state before such a concept the loyalty was first and foremost to the tribe. I would also here point out to you that we can also take a much larger approach to this as well and look at the influx of persian philosophy and the continued propagation of the magian ideology under shiism in the sassanid and safavid empire's along with currently in iran and the effect that the ancient persian culture on shiism is certainly significant (but thats more for your own reading (just caught my attention when you mentioned internal infiltration by a previous external force)).
i'd certainly agree that Shia Sunni relations got steadily worse especially from a theological standpoint. The Zaydiyyah (early shia) were actually extremely respected by sunnis for being of Ahl Al Bayt and are to an extent today in yemen wheras the twelvers nowadays and ahl al sunnah are much to far apart in theological stand point which will inevitably blur the historical perspective.Ibn Fulaan (talk) 16:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
To be honest i'll have to do some more reading on the tribal dynamics and specifically the influence of banu ta'if to comment on the rest. (as i'm sure you've guessed i'm a sunni muslim so my exposure and studies to this topic have been more religious and ideological rather than tribal)--Ibn Fulaan (talk) 17:26, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
The Battle of Hunayn and the Siege of Ta'if were different events. The Thaqeef of Taif first fought in the Battle of Hunayn, along side other tribes, against the Muslims. After they lost, they went to Taif. The Siege of Ta'if then followed. But the Muslims were unable to take the city, as it was on a hill and it had large walls. The Thaqeef archers had the advantage and caused the Muslims a lot of pain.
According to Imam Al Waqidi from Madina who lived 1300 years ago, even Abu Suffain lost one his eyes to arrow fire during this siege and the other eye to arrow fire during the battle of Yarmouk in Syria [13].
The usual pattern is that the people of Kufa send the letter and the Thaqeef of Taif do the killing. These were traps.
Yes Ibn Ziyaad's appears to have ordered the killing of Muslim Ibn Aqeel too. The people of Kufa sent the letters and lowered Muslim Ibn Aqeel and then Hussein and his family into the trap. al-Imam al-Waqidi said that when Abdullah ibn Abbas hurd that Hussein was going to Kufa he rode his horse for three days to catch up to Hussein. Abdullah ibn Abbas said he told Hussein that he was Ali's general in Kufa and the people of Kufa could not be trusted. Many people in Makkah and Madina including Abdullah Ibn Zubair told Hussein not to trust the people of Kufa. Both Sunni and Shia books are full of the troubles Ali had with the people of Kufa. They said one thing and did something else.
Incidentally the same happened with Hussein's grandson Zayd. The people in Kufa also sent him letters, lowered him into Iraq and trapped him and also had him killed.
Before that the Kharijites also caused a lot of conflict as did Marwan. Many old books continued to refer to the Kharijites as Qurra even after the second fitna. These days we refer to them as the Kharijites but the people at the time still referred to them by their old name the Qurra. For example in Sahih Al Bukhari the people still referred to the Kharijites by their old name Qurra.
Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Number 228:[216] Narrated by Abu Al-Minhal
"When Ibn Ziyad and Marwan were in Sham and Ibn Az-zubair took over the authority in Mecca and Qurra' (the Kharijites) revolted in Basra,..."
Another factor one has to consider is that the Abbasids justified their rule based on their family ties to Muhammad. They were not elected. Therefore many books written during their rule also lean towards justifying their rule on family lines. Additionally they sponsored authors to write books that justified their rule based on their family ties to Muhammad. Which the Sayids later used.
It's not just politics, it is also business. If you could get people to accept you as rulers or the chosen people, there is money to be made.
The Arabs before Muhammad also believe in a Supreme Being. They just had other Gods to intercede on their behalf. In fact the Arabs even went of Hajj. After all the Quraish even claimed to be the off spring of Abraham. So they knew about monotheism. Muhammad met the people of Madina during the Hajj and introduced them to Islam and they then went back to Madina and converted other people and finally invited him to Madina. Hajj is very old. As is worshiping God. People have been going out in the wilderness and deserts of thousands of years to worship God. Therefore the Quran appears to be to the point and less superstitious and more along the lines of "Worship no one except god", he know everything, he will judge you and everyone is the offspring of Adam and Eve. I guess if the Quran was less specific, there would have been even more sects and more divergence.
It was the later history books that had the content that is more political in nature and introduced the divergence. The politics between the Ottomans and the Safavids also introduced a lot of divergent content. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 23:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Yup, so you did make a mistake in your original response in saying the muslims lost Hunayn.
Interestingly the incident with Imam Zayn Al Abideen is where the term Rawaafidh or Raafidah (rejectors) comes from which is now commonly used to refer to the shia.
Yes i'm aware of the use of the word "Qurra" in relation to the khawaarij, it was just a point of interest.
They believed in Allah as the supreme deity but had other gods and claimed that angels and other beings were the sons and daughters of Allah.The idea of the Qur'an was to take them back to the religion of ibraheem, you may want to look up the story of Zayd Ibn Amr Ibn Nufayl in relation to people following the religion of Ibraheem before islam in Arabia.Ibn Fulaan (talk) 15:36, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
In my post above I had meant that the Muslims gave up on the Siege of Ta'if. You said "the incident with Imam Zayn Al Abideen" Are you sure you did not mean Zayd ibn ‘Alī.
Going back to this article, currently this article appears to read almost as if Muhammad invented Islam to enrich Ali's descendants. It appears to be slanted towards the notion that only Ali's and his decendent should have power and benefit economically from the power. It is more about the concept of the Chosen people, than about monotheism. The whole focus is on power, politics and money for the chosen people. Where as if you read books written nearer to that time, you discover that the focus of the people then was on the survival of monotheism. Even Ali was a hard core monotheism. I know these days Ali appears to have almost attained an Idol status, but back in the days, it was Ali after all who cleared many of the idols out of the Kaaba.
Considering the challenges faced, the survival of Islam and monotheism was on the edge after Muhammad passed away. Numerous people claiming to be Prophets, appeared after Muhammad. The Persians and the Romans were at the door step. Every book you read from that period illustrates the numerous challenges faced. Crucial decisions appear to have been made to ensure the survival of monotheism, they were not made to preserve their power. Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman did not appoint their sons to succeed them. Hassan made peace with Muawiya to prevent the loss of life and to preserve monotheism. On the subject of succession, preserving monotheism appears to have been at the top of the agenda, when making their decisions. They all remained focused on preserving monotheism. Where as this article appears to be on the concept of the Chosen people and their right to power. Nothing about monotheism here. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:11, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
References
^The Great Arab Conquests By Hugh Kennedy, page 18
^The Great Arab Conquests By Hugh Kennedy, page 18
^The Great Arab Conquests By Hugh Kennedy, page 54 to 56
^The Great Arab Conquests By Hugh Kennedy, page 54 to 56
^[12] Book of "Peacemaking" Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 49 (Peacemaking), Number 867
^The Great Arab Conquests By Hugh Kennedy, page 349
^The Caliphate of Banu Umayyah the first Phase, Ibn Katheer, Taken from Al-Bidayah wan-Nihayah by Ibn Katheer, Ismail Ibn Omar 775 ISBN978-603-500-080-2 Translated by Yoosuf Al-Hajj Ahmad Page 45
^Islamic Conquest of Syria A translation of Fatuhusham by al-Imam al-Waqidi Translated by Mawlana Sulayman al-Kindi Page 332
March 2016
I started working on this page a few years ago and then stopped because there were a lot of contradictions in the various texts. And a lot of politics. So I have been digging around. It will be good to look at this article again and try to improve it. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 00:53, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
The difference between the various sects in Islam are predominantly political over who has the right the rule. Various dynasties sponsored the writing of books to justify their right to rule.
The Abassid did a lot of this. They felt that they had the right to rule because they were related to Muhammad. Then the fatamids also did this.
Many stories appeared in the early books like The Life of Muhammad: Al-Waqidi's Kitab Al-Maghazi and books like Sirat Ibn Hisham and then later appear again in later books but the stories change and incorporate more politics.
I put the diagram below on the Fiqh page a few years ago. People could use this to find books and then compare them.
Books written by Arabs in Madina a few years after Muhammad are less political, than books written by Persians a few centuries later.
To illustrate this I will show you some text about the events on this page, relating to what happened in Yemen and in Ghadir Khumm.
A book written by a Persian a few centuries later about events in Yemen and then when they meet Muhammad, in what is now Saudi Arabia, :
Muhammad al-Bukhari (810-870)
Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 5-#637 Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus ([one fifth] of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him......
The text after that comes in different forms depending on who wrote the book and when.
This is mentioned in both later Shia and Sunni books predominantly written by Persians including Al Tabri and in Shia books like Kitab Al Irshad (Iran at the time was predominantly Sunni, many Sunni authors are Persian)
The story goes on from Yemen to Ghadir Khumm where Alis men take on Ali when he stops them wearing the cloths that were presumably part of the Khumus and Muhammad steps in to stop them from attacking Ali.
Christian Missionaries also use this against the Muslims.
But a quick careful analysis of this shows how the story changes over time.
Al-Waqidi (748 – 822) from Madina
The Life of Muhammad: Al-Waqidi's Kitab Al-Maghazi
By Rizwi Faizer page 528 talks about the expedition of Ali ibn abi talib to yemen. but it says that the cloths were given by people in Yemen as charity (Sadaqa not Khumus) and when the men wore them Ali objected. There is no mention of a slave girl. Meaning that the later sunni and shia writtings are politically motivated.
Books like The Life of Muhammad: Al-Waqidi's Kitab Al-Maghazi and Sirat Ibn Hisham, written by there early Arab historians do not mention the slave girl or the appointment of Ali as the next caliph after Muhammad.
In fact Sirat Ibn Hisham is the total opposite. It talks about how caring and good natured Ali is and how he helped girls that were prisoners of War and sends them to their families. Sirat Ibn Hisham, biography of the prophet, abridged by: Abdus-Salam M. Harun page 258 is one of the earliest books. It talks about how a Christian land lord, Adiyy ibn Hatim used to heavily tax people. Then he went to join the Romans in Syria to fight against the Muslims. One of the Women in his group the daughter of Hatim was left behind at Al Jawshiyyah. The Muslims Army came across her and took her to Madina where Ali and Muhammad found a reliable person to take her on a caravan to Syria back to Sirat Ibn Hisham and paid for her expenses and her cloths. Later Sirat Ibn Hisham came to Muhammad and became a Muslim and felt ashamed that he heavily taxed the people.
There is a lot of politics in this, its also about money.
You need to ask your self who benefits from these later stories.
These days the term Khumus or Khums is used by the clerics who claims to be Syeds or descendants of Ali in Iran to get people to give them money.
In 13th century Shia region, the khums was divided into two portions. One portion went to the descendants of Muhammad, the other portion was divided equally and one part given to Imam and clergy, while the other part went to the orphaned and poor Muslims. Khums became a major source of income and financial independence of the clergy in Shia regions. This practice has continued among Shia Muslims.
Clearly this was not war booty, it was paid by normal people.
The earlier books talk about even Mohammad asking people to choose if they wished him to lead the early Muslim community. There is a concept of baya where people freely gave their oath of allegiance. Even Khalid Bin Walid a General appears to have been elected to lead the Muslim army while they were loosing in a battle.
There appears to be a concept of not forcing people to accept them as rulers.
“Endowed with a clear intellect, warm in affection, and confiding in friendship, he was from the boyhood devoted heart and soul to the Prophet. Simple, quiet, and un-ambitious, when in after days he obtained the rule of half of the Moslem world, it was rather thrust upon him than sought.[11]([11] The Life of Mahomet, London, 1877, p. 250)
The division after prophet muhammed by Hassan A nahim
Page 20
[19]
Hassan gave up power.
There is a recurring theme where people say Muhammad told them that if power is thrust upon them and they rule, Allah helps them, but if they desire to rule and attain power Allah judges them.
In various books like Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz by Imam Abu Muhammad Abdullah ibn Abdul Hakam (written in 829) it says When Omayyad Emir Sulaiman (714-717) lay on his death bed, he was advised that he could earn the pleasure of God by nominating someone who will be good for the people and not his own son. So he appointed Omar bin Abdul Aziz. When news reached him of his nomination to the Caliphate, Omar addressed the people, “O people! The responsibilities of the Caliphate have been thrust upon me without my desire or your consent. If you choose to select someone else as the Caliph, I will immediately step aside and will support your decision”. The people asked him to stay on.
Islam in Global History: volume one: from the death of prophet Muhammad to the first world war by Dr Nazeer Ahmed
[20]
In the eighteenth century in the US it was expected that power be thrust upon people than sought. In the book Contested Commonwealths: Essay in American History By William Pencak page 251 it says:
"Washington's concern that office be thrust upon him rather than sought, and exercised without financial benefit for the good of his reputation, may appear strange to those who study him two centuries after his death. But had he acted otherwise he would have violated the norms of eighteeth century political life."
Key: Travelled extensively collecting the sayings of Muhammad and compiled books of hadith
Key: Worked in Persia
I have taken the liberty to wikify the way in which you invoked the diagram template, i.e. by writing template's title between double curly brackets: {{Islam scholars diagram}}. Now then, could you please state in max five sentences, what it is that you want to change in this article, because the long post above does not make it any clearer. - HyperGaruda (talk) 05:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Another early historian Al-Baladhuri (278-279 AH/892 CE)
A Persian but generally more neutral also talks about Yemen.
In this translation of this book:
The origins of the Islamic state, being a translation from the Arabic, accompanied with annotations, geographic and historic notes of the Kitab futuh al-buldan of al-Imam abu-l Abbas Ahmad ibn-Jabir al-Baladhuri
by Baladhuri, AhĐmad ibn YahĐya, d. 892; Hitti, Philip Khuri, 1886-
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