Talk:Syriac Orthodox Church

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Untitled[edit]

In the vestments section it states that no one can wear red in the presence of the patriarch, but the picture shows the patriarch with a bishop (?) and both are in red.

Also, earlier in the article it says that Syriacs have unique vestements and that all other christians dress the same. This is quite insulting and stereotypes everyone else. Please remove that phrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.143.33 (talk) 00:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


-[edit]

Ah, there's the rub. There are actually two groups who lay claim to 'Syrian Orthodox'. One is part of the Oriental Orthodox Communion, and calls itself the "Syrian Orthodox Church". The other is part of the Eastern Orthodox Communion and calls itself the "Antiochian Orthodox Church"--although they called themselves the "Syrian Orthodox Church" until fairly recently. Dogface 04:38, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)


There's no mention of Jacobite in the current article. Is that something different? Because a lot of redirects come from Jacobite Orthodox Church. I've only heard of the church from a friend who said she was Syrian Jacobite.

The article looks quite different to when i last looked back in August last year [1], where's that information gone? T 05:20, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)


It went in what I think was a POV edit, now reverted --Henrygb 21:14, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Some major reorganisation needed[edit]

It looks like some major reorganisation is needed here.

  • The Syrian Orthodox Church has renamed itself the Syriac Orthodox Church.
  • Antiochene Orthodox Church is usually used to describe the Arabic-speaking church which is in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.
  • 'Jacobite' was initially a partisan label given to the Syriac-speaking Christians who broke away from Constantinople. Syriac Orthodox dislike this label. However, Syriac Orthodox in Kerala tend to use it as the main way of distinguishing their church from others.

I am new here, so I do not quite know the best way to go about changing this. I'll have a try: let me know what you all think.

Gareth Hughes 14:46, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Thanks very much for your input. The whole area needs some proofreading I assume. But this article itself looks rather O.K. to me, only a bit short compared with its german counterpart at de:Syrisch-Orthodoxe_Kirche_von_Antiochien (OTOH the german one looks like copyvio). To address your three main concerns:

  • I moved the article to "Syriac" in accordance with the offical self naming.
  • It is mentioned in the article, that the Antiochene Orthodox Church is another, "competing", church.
  • "Jacobite" is an often used labelling in older western sources, so it should stay. The article says, the church "is called", so its somewha clear, that this is an external labelling.

If you also have a grasp on the situation in Kerale, can you please have a look at Nasrani#Nasrani_tradition_today. It seems to me, at least one of the churces named there would be a duplicate.

Pjacobi 15:17, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Double revert[edit]

An additional sentence was added to be the second sentence in this article reading:

It is one of the five churches that comprised what is now the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church before the Great Schism.

The five churches referred to are the patriarchates of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. The additional sentence does not make it explicit (one reason why I don't want it there) that it is talking about the Patriarchate of Antioch in a pre-schismatic pentarchy. If the Syriac Orthodox Church was the sole inheritor of the Antiochene tradition it would be fine to leave the sentence. However, as there are a number of churches with their roots in that tradition, it certainly is POV to suggest that the SOC represents the Antiochene branch of the one perfect church.

I don't want to revert this again. So, please give me some reason why it should be there. Gareth Hughes 21:56, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oops...well "what is now" shouldn't be there, I had typed something else before that, so that's just poor editing on my part. Anyway, I guess it could say that it claims to be descended from the original Antiochene church, would that be better? Adam Bishop 21:58, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It also shouldn't imply anything about the Great Schism being a dividing point, because the Syriac Orthodox Church (along with the other Oriental Orthodox Churches) had already split centuries earlier. --Delirium 04:29, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
When talking about splits and schisms it is best to say that there was a split/schism between different bodies, rather than one party split from the rest. Each side will have their own views of this, but this wording is less controversial and more neutral. Members of Oriental Orthodox churches would be likely to label the last post as Byzantine falsehood — the Chalcedonians split from the orthodox line of Cyril of Alexandria, they would suggest. --Gareth Hughes 14:40, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Assyrian Church of The East[edit]

There is also an unrelated Assyrian Church of the East.

The Assyrian Church of The East is related to the Syriac Orthodox Church since the founders of the Assyrian Church left the Syriac Orthodox Church sometime in the 4th or 5th century and founded the East Syriac Church also known as The Assyrian Church of The East.--Sargon 19:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Assyrian Church of the East[edit]

The link to the Assyrian Church of the East wiki has "(Nestorian)" before it, yet that page denies that the Assyrian Church of the East is actually Nestorian. I don't really know enough about this issue to try and fix that, but it needs to be fixed one way or the other. - Matt Montgomery

The Assyrian Church of the East (or Church of the East) was founded in Assyria between the 1st and 3rd centuries AD. Nestorius lived in the late 5th century AD. His followers fled to the Sassanid Empire of which Assyria (known as Assuristan by the Persians) was part. There was some form of synthesis between the two doctrines as they had similarities, although the Assyrian Church and its doctrine was much older. So strictly, the Assyrian Church of the East is doctrinally different to the teachings of Nestorius, although to Europeans right through the Middle Ages up until the early 20th century those Assyrians who were members of the Assyrian Church of the East were labelled Nestorians, including those Assyrians who broke from the Assyrian Church and entered into communion with the Roman Catholic Church in the 17th century and were renamed (and racially and geographically misnamed) Chaldean Catholics by The Vatican. Nestorian just became a lazy and inaccurate generic term used to describe all sorts of Eastern Christians. But after the 14th century AD when the Assyrian Church of the East-Nestorian Church was wiped out in Central Asia, China, Mongolia, everywhere except the Assyrian homeland in northern Iraq, northeast Syria, southeast Turkey and northwest Iran (as well as Kerala in [[India), it was used to describe mainly ethnic Assyrians who belonged to the; Assyrian Church of the East, Chaldean Catholic Church and even sometimes Syriac Orthodox Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.31.70 (talk) 15:39, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Chit-chat tone[edit]

  • "..."these terms are misleading, and not appreciated by the some of the church today" Precisely why these terms are misleading would provide information rather than a judgment. "not appreciated" is a euphemistic vulgarism: find a more informative phrase.
  • "The main idea of the Syrian Orthodox Church is love. In other words love conquers all, it doesn't matter how old you are, what color skin you have, what religion you are, what you believe in, etc. Every man and woman should find love and be peaceful." This is fatuous drum-beating.
  • " A wise man once said, "Love is an endless mystery, for it has nothing to explain it." Such greeting-card sentiment tells little about the Syriac Orthodox Church.
  • "It is against some churches out of the Middle East to marry one from a different church." Lacks precision. What is the Syriac Orthodox ordinance on this subject? Quote it.
  • "Some estimate that the church has about 5.500.000 members globally..." Some estimate indeed. This is lazy. Source a figure and mention the source.

Please consider the above in lieu of one of those lazy "clean-up" tags. --Wetman 09:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Oriental Orthodoxy project[edit]

There is now a new proposed project at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Oriental Orthodoxy for a group which would focus on articles relating to the Oriental Orthodox Church. Any individuals interested in working with such a group should indicate as much there, to allow us to know if there is enough support to actually begin such a project. Thank you. Badbilltucker 14:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

A celebrity who is a member of S.O.C.[edit]

Could (maybe, maybe not) be interesting to put into the article. Yes there are extremely few, but one comes to mind: Hollywood actor F. Murray Abraham. -andy 80.129.113.231 23:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Cleaned up the article a bit Lijujacobk (talk) 14:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Patriarch is doing nothing to solve the Indian dispute[edit]

The Indian church under the spirtiual leadership of Antioch is on the verge of a split. Its sad to state the truth that the Patriarch has become a party to one of the fraction, that too without discussing or consulting with the other. The proposed visit of Patriarch in India is practically to boost the conflict. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Calendar[edit]

Does this church use the calendar described at East Syrian Rite? Is it Julian or Gregorian or Coptic or something else? -- Beland (talk) 16:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

"rabbinic tradition"?[edit]

"Syriac Fathers following the rabbinic tradition"
Why would Fathers be following a rabbinic tradition? Isn't that chronology backwards? Christianity predates rabbinical Judaism.
Varlaam (talk) 16:49, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Vestments[edit]

In the section Vestments the picture that is shown shows priests wearing a Kalimavkion. Syriac Orthodox priests do not wear this clothing and this pictures seems to be Syriac Catholic not Syriac Orthodox.

Does anyone have any information regarding this picture? 3abos (talk) 07:34, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

also it appears that the picture is in Mar Toma. 3abos (talk) 07:39, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

What's the point of the "Ecumenical synods" section?[edit]

The top of the section has the claim that "the Church of Antioch played a significant role in the early history of Christianity. It played a prominent role in the first three Synods..." However the remainder of the section, which describe four of the early major synods, contain absolutely no reference to the role of the Church of Antioch. It seems as though this connection should be explained or the section should be removed, saving only the claim itself with at least a reference to supporting documentation. Jyg (talk) 21:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

" last Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas"[edit]

Does this mean "the late Patriarch"? or "the previous Patriarch"? Or was he the last one, and there will never be another? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 23:30, 23 May 2014 (UTC)