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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Launchballer talk 23:19, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

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Maryvonne Le Dizès

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Created by Rigg (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2115 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC).

  • This will need a new hook per WP:DYKINT, as the hook as currently written is not likely to be perceived as interesting or unusual by people without specialist knowledge. It is reliant on names and knowledge unknown to most readers, and her writing the trio is part of her job and may not meet scrutiny from other reviewers. My suggestion would be to propose a hook about her being the first woman to win the Paganini Competition (which is an exceptional claim, but shouldn't be hard to prove), while adding context about the competition for the benefit of general readers. A hook about her quote "Teaching is as vital to me as playing my instrument. I cannot teach if I do not play, and I cannot play without teaching." might also work. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    Kindly read the article (or just the hook). She didn't compose as far as we know. The competition is just one of those "first" hooks we were told to avoid. The special thing about her - compared to other violinists - is that she played in this influential ensemble of contemporary music, and people who don't know it get a chance to change that. Being of influence in the composition of new works is a more unusual contribution to world culture than winning a competition, and the combination of instruments is unusual as well. She devoted her life to contemporary music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
@CurryTime7-24 and Launchballer: Do you see anything in the article that could work as a hook? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
@CurryTime7-24, Launchballer, ScottishFinnishRadish, and Valereee: Please look and also read above. As you may have read on my talk, she - whom I also didn't know - became dear to me. Did you know should be about something people don't know, imho. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
I was going to suggest something like "that when Maryvonne Le Dizes became the first woman and first foreigner to enter the Carnegie Hall competition, she was performing less to focus on her children" on the grounds that they'll keep a record of all its competitors, so there's little danger of us being proved wrong. I'm not seeing how the source backs up that her appearance took place in that time period though. I could also recommend "that the violinist Maryvonne Le Dizes "cannot play without teaching"" but that seems less than reverent.--Launchballer 09:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the ideas! In order to run a beauty contest, better format them in a way that a promoter could take them without changes. I hope that we can get "contemporary music" in because that's truly what distinguishes her from most violinists with a DYK that I met. Fewer performances because of children is no surprise. Finding teaching essential as nothing that could be said only about her. For examples:
ALT3: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, the first woman to win the Paganini Competition, became a long-term violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain?
ALT4: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, the first woman to win the Paganini Competition, became a long-term violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain run by Pierre Boulez?
Pierre Boulez, featured article, centenary next year, is a name that Main page readers should know. However: He will be TFA on his centenary next year, - why promote him? Same for the other with whom she collaborated there, György Ligeti, centenary last year and celebrated. (Remember Le Grand Macabre)? So why promote him? The composer I found has a decent article and should be known more. Commissioning new music is unusual, and should be known more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Probably not a popular opinion, but I feel modifying ALT 3 and 4 thusly would be the best solution here:
ALT1: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès was the first woman to win the Paganini Competition?
"Long-term violinist" doesn't sound idiomatic. (It reminded me in passing of "Part-Time Lover"!) To you and me, working with the EC and Boulez is a big deal, but to the average person who would potentially read those hooks, it means nothing. Another ALT just came to me after re-reading the article...
ALT2: ... that for the violinist Maryvonne Le Dizès, "teaching was as vital as playing [her] instrument"?Source: Ibid.
I get where Gerda is coming from, but I feel the most successful hooks rely on exactly the sort of facts that she wants to avoid here. Whereas her preference to mention Le Dizès' work in modern music seems to me a tough sell for the casual reader unaware of classical music. Of course, what do I know? Please feel free to disagree! ;) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 00:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the ALTs and especially for thinking.
"tough sell" - I am not here to sell but to inform, and that goes for the Main page as for articles. I am here to inform about the less known topics, about minorities, and want a place for those, and that goes for the Main page as well. I am here for team spirit, and like her being part of an ensemble most of all, not a virtuoso soloist. I want to give some idea of this to the reader of the one sentence who will not click. Please find a way. - I renamed your ALTs because they were the ideas from above, - why I began with ALT3.
ALT3a: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, the first woman to win the Paganini Competition, became violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
I could also call it ALT1a, trying not to leave the impression of her with good old virtuoso Paganini and competition winning alone. Repeating: she dedicated her life to contemporary music, and the name of the ensemble shows that elegantly. ALT1 requires knowledge of Paganini having been a violinist to deduce that she was a violinist, - isn't that asking too much from our general audience? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
full review needed :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
  • I like ALT3a very much. I also like ALT1. John (talk) 22:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
The article was nominated five days after creation and is long enough and adequately sourced. The sourcing is largely independent and reliable, and is adequate. Right now Earwig gives me the "Too Many Requests" error so I will return to this and check for close paraphrasing once that is done. A QPQ has been provided. ALT2 is probably the cutest hook here and thus the best option, because it's somewhat surprising and isn't reliant on deep knowledge of classical music. ALT1 is the second-best option here: I know "first" hooks are not well-received on DYK these days, but this is an example that's easy to verify and thus does not require extraordinary evidence: if a full list of competition winners can be provided and added to the article, that should suffice for sourcing. I would also suggest modifying ALT1 to give brief context on the competition for the benefit of general readers. As much as Gerda is partial to ALT3 and variants, CurryTime has a point that it may be too focused on appealing to classical music fans instead of general readers. This will be given final approval once Earwig is working again. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
I think that I clearly said that I won't accept any hook that doesn't show that she was dedicated to contemporary music and ensemble playing. Give minorities a place on the Main page, please ;) - ALT3a has the"first woman" aspect, so offers general appeal. The words "ensemble" and "intercontemporain" are clear to any reader, not "reliant on deep knowledge of classical music". Please think about it. ALT2 is cute, correct, but nothing about her specific accomplishments. It could be said by almost any music teacher giving lessons. CurryTime7-24 has not yet commented on ALT3a. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Gerda, this is a recurring issue with your nominations: you assume too much about general readership's knowledge of classical music. A general reader would almost certainly not know what a "intercontemporain" is (especially when it's a French term). CurryTime has a point and has already said his piece: the best option here is the angle that appeals to general readers, even if they are not necessarily what you want. WP:DYKINT is clear on this: the hook has to be likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing to people lacking specialist knowledge. ALT2 is an easy to understand and catchy hook that does not require specialist knowledge. ALT3 and its variants require knowledge of the Paganini Competition and the Ensemble intercontemporain, which only a minuscule fraction of our readership have. You are essentially pleading for an IAR exemption to DYKINT given that you would rather push for a hook that primarily appeals to you rather than to general readership. Gerda, I understand that you are an expert on classical music, but again, I have to repeat that very few others who are going to read the article are, and even your fellow classical music expert CurryTime prefers a more generalist hook. I have already given my thoughts, and based on WP:DYKINT and other factors, I will only be approving ALT2.
In any case, I was able to make Earwig work and there is an issue: excluding the quote, I am seeing some similarities with the wording at this link. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
It is a recurring issue with your reviews. You seem to not have read my post above. Trying to be patient: The first part of ALT3 has already the general appeal you want. The second part doesn't require any knowledge. "Ensemble" is even an English word. "intercontemporain" is close enough to "contemporary". People not interested in that part can simply be attracted by the first part, but we can come closer to her key interests in a few words. Please consider. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
It is something I have repeatedly brought up because it is something that keeps occurring. It has been an issue for several years, one raised by multiple editors, and one that contributes to classical music hooks generally underperforming in terms of readership. It also contributed to the current wording of WP:DYKINT following an RfC that originated from a similar case. I have already considered ALT3 and its variants, and ultimately, ALT2 is a better option. Even if we go with ALT1, with just the Paganini Competition angle, additional context would have to be added for readers to understand why the competition is a big deal. We cannot just simply rely on them clicking on the link: they need to get the context right from the start. I am open to approving a version of ALT1 with additional context, but ALT3 and variants are simply non-starters. You are assuming too much of a general reader.
The general reader will not easily make the "intercontemporain" = contemporary connection, and the hook does not even make it clear that 1. The Ensemble intercontemporain is the name of a specific group, and 2. that it is a big deal. ALT3 relies too much on specialist information, ALT2 is easy to understand. It may not necessarily be "specific" to her, but it's far more likely to achieve your goal of having readers learn more about Le Dizès. A hook like ALT2 is more likely to have more people read her article and learn about her achievements like joining the ensemble contemporain, than a hook that will just confuse readership and drive readers away (a recurring issue with classical music hooks that are reliant on specialist knowledge).
In any case, the close paraphrasing issue will still need to be addressed regardless of hook, so if that cannot be addressed, this whole discussion is moot anyway. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I disagree with the Paganini Competition "context would have to be added for readers to understand why the competition is a big deal". For the Olympics, you would not say so, right? Any competition with an article is notable. Any ensemble with an article is notable. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I've done some rewriting. I don't know if there is another way to write "a string trio by Jean-Baptiste Devillers, a trio for saxophone, trombone and violin by Gilbert Amy". CMD (talk) 07:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
You mean that Earwig is not working for you, or what? - CMD: no, "some person's work" does not have to be changed. It's not phrasing by an author that would need protection. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Thank you. Now that the paraphrasing issues are approved, ALT2 only is approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
    We can do two things now. I believe that she is too special to have a hook that could have been said by any school music teacher at any time in any culture, while the Paganini competition would at least credit her as "high achiever" in an "international competition" and present some time frame. To me ALT2 is almost meaningless without context, and highly unspecific. I can withdraw, or find a different reviewer, CurryTime perhaps. I try the latter. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
As a compromise, would you be okay with the following hook then?
ALT4 ... that for Maryvonne Le Dizès, who became the first woman to win the Paganini Competition in 1962, "teaching was as vital as playing [her] instrument"?
As I mentioned above, the Ensemble intercontemporain angle is a non-starter. Also pinging CurryTime7-24 for his thoughts, as requested. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
ALT4 doesn't work as explained above. We can't expect that people will gather from the competition's name or article that she was a violinist, and "[her] instrument" - besides being clumsy - makes no sense if we don't know which instrument that was. I also seem not to have been clear about that some form of "contemporary music" is a must for me in her case, because it sets her apart from all other violinist I have met on Wikipedia. I think that CurryTime may understand that--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I did not find it clear from the current article that contemporary music was a particular passion. I have added a bit from one source, but also see various bits in this source (French) which help express that too. Perhaps adding that to the article would help. Reading that source, I do think there is merit to mentioning the Paganini competition in the hook, as she states a meeting because of it was one of her best memories (mes plus beaux souvenirs), and this source feels it important enough for the sub-headline. For any hook, we could append "violinist" or "contemporary violinist" before her name at the least. CMD (talk) 12:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
ALT4a ... that for contemporary violinist Maryvonne Le Dizès, who became the first woman to win the Paganini Competition in 1962, "teaching was as vital as playing [her] instrument"?
@Chipmunkdavis: Like that? What are your thoughts on the Ensemble intercontemporain angle? It's 172 characters though which is already making the hook rather long, maybe longer than necessary. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
There's also another possible angle, which would be only to focus on the Paganini Competition angle, but with additional context. The context, however, would need to be added to the article as well:
ALT5 ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès was the first woman to win the Paganini Competition, one of the world's most prestigious violin competitions?
The year is probably unnecessary since it would add too much complexity to the hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:55, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Some sources do seem to highlight her contemporary music. "I am passionate about working with composers," Le Dizès said in a 1998 interview of why she chose to make contemporary music her life. "Being able to discuss a score with its author, seeing together what is possible or not, trying to realize it with them." from [2] for example. I don't know if mentioning the ensemble specifically is necessary, but hopefully mentioning she is a contemporary violinist will suffice for that angle. CMD (talk) 14:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I like ALTs 4a and 5. And thank you to Narutolovehinata5 for making an effort to celebrate musicianship in hooks. This makes a nice change from on the one hand seeing music hooks in which too many facts are squeezed (instead of being simple lead-ins to the article which has all the facts) and on the other hand hooks which treat musicianship as if it were something to hide like a skeleton in a cupboard. So if 4a and 5 are where this discussion is set to end, then congratulations to both of you. Storye book (talk) 14:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the efforts! Sorry, I'm not there yet. ALT4: "contemporary violinist" means no more than that she is playing in our time, not what she is playing. Also the timing is sort of wrong, - first she won that competition, and decades later she was a teacher, while this "who became" sounds to me as if it came later. ALT5: no, we don't have to tell readers this "most prestigious" stuff. They know or can find out. We could also say that she played in the "ensemble intercontemporain, one of the most prestigious ensembles for contemporary music", but it's a waste of characters. We wouldn't speak of the "Olympic Games, one of the most prestigious sports tournaments". Let's trust that our readers know to use a link. I still believe that ALT3a is our best choice so far, because it combines a pinnacle early moment - thank you, CMD! - with what she played and recorded for decades, collaborating with some the greatest composers in the field. . Improving the article is most welcome. I worked on Friedrich Schorlemmer for hours, and now comes a Bach cantata for its 300th birthday. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I see nothing wrong with ALT3a - I ignored it only because when I commented, it had already been struck out. I think, to be fair to both sides of the above polarised arguments, we should unstrike ALT3a to give a fair choice for the promoter. Storye book (talk) 16:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
The issue here is that ALT3a simply fails WP:DYKINT: it is unlikely to be perceived as interesting or unusual to readers without specialist knowledge. ALT3a is reliant on knowing the ensemble, which I imagine even most classical music fans do not know. CurryTime already said it would be preferrable to not use that angle, while CMD said something similar. Three people (myself and two other editors) have either objected to that angle or would prefer something else, so that is already a non-starter. I understand that the ensemble is close to Gerda's heart, but as I've mentioned in many nominations prior: the interests of readership are more important than that of the nominator. ALT4a fits DYKINT better since the primary point (the quote) is not reliant on knowledge that most readers do not have. It is also somewhat of a compromise: it mentions the competition, but does not make it the highlight and thus is not as reliant on specialist knowledge as ALT3a or any variants thereof. One could argue that explaining the ensemble would improve ALT3a, but the thing is, even if that's done, there's already a more suitable option in ALT4a. I imagine more people will click on the article if ALT4a is used than if it's ALT3a.
To back up my point about how DYKINT and appealing to general readers helps, when Maxim Berezovsky ran on DYK this month, it got 8,848 views. This is above average for a Gerda nomination, and that's taking into account that it wasn't even in the image slot. By contrast, in the past, when Gerda's hooks that followed her preferred style or facts ran, they were usually among the worst-viewed hooks of the month, getting around 2,000 to 3,000 views per run. The hook used a fact that was more likely to appeal to general audiences, rather than specifically to classical music buffs. By using a generalist hook, more people ended up reading more about Berezovsky than would have happened otherwise. If Gerda wants to highlight her prowess in the violin and her achievements, it may seem paradoxical, but a generalist hook intended to make people interested in reading her article (and thus meeting DYKINT), as opposed to just simply showing off her highlights without additional context, is more likely to do that than a specialist hook.
In any case, if we are to go with ALT5, the fact about the competition being among the most prestigious needs to be in Le Dizès's article, as right now it's only in the competition article. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I patiently disagree. It is not a specialist hook. ALT3a is not reliant on knowing the ensemble, it is not reliant on knowing the importance of the ensemble. It tells any reader that - after winning that prize - she went into ensemble playing, which is almost quirky and says much more about her than the prize alone. It tells people who know the ensemble a bit more, and it tells people who know that it is one of the "most prestigious" ensembles of contemporary music, possibly the most prestigious ensemble, yet a bit more, and I like that. See also my story on Schoenberg's 150th birthday, with a 2010 hook and a 2014 hook, - the latter a hook about his 40th birthday on his 140th birthday (review). I'm quite proud of that ;) - (I didn't even try for this year. imagine why. I brought him to OTD instead.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Given that they are knowledgeable about DYKINT, asking Launchballer to weigh in on the hooks, and if possible to give this nomination a tick so this can move forward already. In the interest of compromise, I am asking Launchballer to check ALT3a, ALT4a, and ALT5, although for now I am leaving ALT3a struck unless Launchballer says it can proceed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing off on ALT3a or ALT5a per WP:FIRSTWOMAN. ALT4 technically needs an end-of-sentence citation, but it's all part of the same quote so I'm happy to IAR. However, I think we should fix the "needs IPA" tag before this runs.--Launchballer 16:49, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Launchballer|, sources factually say she was the first woman. It's just a fact. You may also look at the original hook which didn't have that, - I came up with it only because of the want for something for the general readership who allegedly can't be impressed by commissioning new music. I never heard of IPA as a requirement for DYK, - not even FA. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:52, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
I won't accept ALT5a, as explained above. We don't have to say a competition is prestigious, not even in the article. We cut out "distinguished" conductors and other POV adjectives. Any competition with an article is notable. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
I believe you may have misread the policy I quoted. I have no objection whatsoever to mentioning "first woman"; it just should not be the first thing we say about her. (To correct my earlier typo, by ALT5a I meant ALT5 - at time of writing there is no ALT5a.) There is no requirement for IPA to be in an article but clearly having a tag like that three words into the article is less than optimal, so I've added it myself. Do you have any objections to me approving ALT4?--Launchballer 22:08, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the IPA! You said ALT5a, and I had little time, sorry about that. Yes, I explained my objections to ALT4 just above, after it was suggested. Trying another compromise:
ALT6: ... that for Maryvonne Le Dizès, violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain, teaching was as vital as playing her instrument? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:42, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
ALT6 is not accurate because, for one thing and thus she isn't a violinist of the ensemble anymore, and secondly, it suggests that she's the current violinist of the ensemble or the only one. I'm also not sure why the apparent insistence on featuring a group that is obscure even to most classical music fans and on most days gets 10 or less page views per day, when it isn't central to the main hook fact. Although the hook could be modified to instead say "a former violinist", I'm skeptical that the mention of the ensemble is even necessary for this specific angle. Plus, the capitalization is non-standard in English and thus it isn't even clear that it's referring to a specific group rather than a kind of group).
I really don't understand the objection to ALT5 either: as I mentioned above earlier, the context is necessary for the benefit of non-classical music fans. The competition's importance may be obvious to you, but it may not be to general readers, an issue that, again, has been a long-time recurring problem with your nominations. It also seems to contradict your original objection to ALT2: you didn't want ALT2 as is because it "lacks context". On the other hand, ALT4 and ALT5 give plenty of non-specialist context that helps establish Le Dizès as an accomplished violinist, probably even moreso than ALT6 (I understand the objection per WP:FIRSTWOMAN, but a compromise wording could be done to get around that). It appears that it's less to do with the context but more specifically a desire to feature the ensemble in the hook no matter what.
@Launchballer: Would you be fine with just going with ALT2 instead? It's the simplest and catchiest option, and I don't think the mention of the ensemble or the competition is necessary to make it hookier than it already is. If not, maybe a rephrase of ALT4a? Yes it's a first woman hook and something we'd ideally avoid, but I imagine it some variant of it will get more attention from readership than the ensemble. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
It's probably worth noting that this discussion is already several times longer than the actual article being discussed (Le Dizès's article is 354 words long, this discussion is already over 4,000 words long), which frankly is ridiculous. This long discussion could have been avoided if only a generalist hook had been accepted from the start, instead of an apparent insistence on the nichest possible hook angles or focus, something contrary to WP:DYKINT (and indeed, DYKINT's wording was meant to prevent cases like this from happening in the first place). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
ALT6a: ... that for Maryvonne Le Dizès, who was a violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain, teaching was as vital as playing her instrument?
ALT6b: ... that when Maryvonne Le Dizès was violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain, she expressed that her teaching was as vital as playing her instrument?
It is perhaps worth noting that this is so long because of your contributions, Narutolovehinata5, in number of comments and their length. It might be helpful to give others a chance. How can one argue with someone who believes that the leading French (if not even of the world) ensemble of contemporary music is "obscure". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
As I admit to being a layperson regarding classical music, I am asking input from DYK's other resident opera experts, 4meter4 and CurryTime7-24, regarding the ensemble intercontemporain angle, as well as to confirm if the ensemble is well-known among classical music enthusiasts in general and thus if Gerda's claim about its prestige is accurate. For what it's worth, its French Wikipedia article gets an average of 7 views a day, suggesting even in France it's not well-known, let alone internationally. At the very least, the topic seems very niche and an argument could be made, at least to a layperson, that the ensemble is relatively obscure to the general public.
With regards to the length of this discussion, I would disagree. There was already an opportunity for the discussion to end early when I approved ALT2. Had you agreed to the approval, not only would have the discussion already ended, the hook may have even been promoted by now. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
You are proving my point. This discussion might have been much shorter if you had left the review to some else. Did you forget my arguments regarding ALT2? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:25, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5 Since I was pinged. I've never heard of the Ensemble intercontemporain until today. That doesn't mean much as new classical music is not an area I am expert in, or where I spend my listening energies. In reading up, I can tell you that Ensemble intercontemporain's founder Pierre Boulez (very famous conductor) was widely regarded as one of the world's great conductors until his death in 2016 and was revered in the classical musical world. The Library of Congress says it's "one of the world's great ensembles", and its one of the rare ensembles to be given the Polar Music Prize (in 2022) which is a major award that usually goes to an individual musician. They have also been nominated four times for a Grammy Award, and won the Grammy Award for Best Chamber Music/Small Ensemble Performance twice. My guess is that the ensemble would be better known to European readers than Americans, and than many people who follow classical music (particularly the new stuff) even in the United States will have heard of this group because of the awards. They've also toured to the USA. All together, I don't think calling it prestegious is inaccurate, and given the prizes its won I don't think it could be considered "obscure". The Paganini Competition is one of the top and better known violin competitions. It's a big deal. I personally think Alt 3 is a good hook for this topic.4meter4 (talk) 05:13, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

What is your opinion of the following: ALT7: ... that when the future long-term ensemble intercontemporain violinist Maryvonne Le Dizès won the Paganini Competition in 1962, she was the first woman to win the award? ...which says basically the same thing as ALT3 but puts her achievement first.--Launchballer 08:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd accept it but think ALT3 is not only more concise but also better chronology. Also, Narutolovehinata5 had problems with the term "long-term". I'd therefore still prefer ALT3a which avoids that. Why not have achievements at the end, for impact? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I get what 4meter4 said above but I'm still skeptical about the ensemble angle for reasons I've already mentioned. It's good to know that they are seemingly prestigious, but I'm skeptical that most readers would even get that context. ALT4a is probably the best compromise angle: it has more emphasis on the quote instead of the first (and thus may meet WP:FIRSTWOMAN better), and it isn't reliant on knowledge of the ensemble. Or if a concise hook is desired, there is still ALT2: I don't see the issues Gerda raised about it as serious and feel that the concerns have less to do with issues about ALT2 itself but more to do with lacking the information or hook facts she wants. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
You seem to have overlooked that on 12 Sep, I explained why ALT4a doesn't work (and also had requested a new reviewer even before). - My story today is a DYK 5 years old OTD, about a voice teacher. Interesting review. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
The objection towards ALT4a (and indeed any hook that does not mention the ensemble) seems to be more a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than guideline-based objections. As in, the main reason isn't because they're inaccurate or don't meet the guideline, but simply because you want the ensemble to be mentioned and it being in the hook is non-negotiable.
In any case, I offer a compromise deal: in the interest of approving this nomination and putting an end to this, I'm offering to approve a slightly modified version of ALT4 (adding "violinist" before her name) and ALT6a (which seems to be slightly more accurate as it's not clear if she made the quote when she was part of them or not, and I'd suggest adding "Grammy-winning" for context purposes). That way, the promoter can choose between an option that mentions the ensemble (albeit with additional generalist context to make its prestige more obvious), and an option that instead focuses on the award. A hook that mixes the two would probably be too complex, so just focusing on one or the other may be the option here. Deal? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
I am sorry for making this still longer, but I feel it's sort of basic. When I write articles about people who recently died, I like to mention in a hook what they stood for in life. Example: Hans Otto Jung, born 17 September 2020. In 2017, three things he stood for were mentioned in the hook, without any problems. I loved that. Now we look at this great musician, and I see one thing she stood for: playing, recording and educating in contemporary music, influencing new music in collaborating with the greatest composers in the field, even commissioning new music. I tried that in the original hook. The short elegant summary for this complex achievement is the name of the ensemble, but I'd be open for a different wording. I am not open to reduce her to only a winner of a competition even if it is a prestigious competition, nor to finding teaching as vital as playing which she has in common with a large number of others, or a combination of those two, as offered just above. We have ALT7 to look at. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
For what it's worth, Hans Otto Jung's hook does meet WP:DYKINT since the hook was eyecatching even for someone without specialist knowledge. It wasn't simply because it was a summary hook, it was because it met the guidelines and just happened to be one. Such cases are a minority, and summary hooks have received pushback in the past since most arguably do not meet DYKINT. As for ALT7, my primary concern is that it could arguably require trimming since the primary context is her being the first woman to win the award and the rest simply sound like excessive detail. One of your recurring issues is your repeated desire to include as much detail about the subject as possible, something that is discouraged at by WP:DYKTRIM. Again, compare your proposal to Maxim's hook which ran previously and did well. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:46, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't think you understood what I tried to express: that I would see the one thing she stood for mentioned which could be short:
ALT8: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès was for decades violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain?
How about trying to add to that, or trim AL7? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
ALT7a: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès became violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain after she had been the first woman to win the Paganini Competition? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Narutolovehinata5 I respectfully disagree with your contention that the original hook required specialized knowledge to be considered interesting. I am very far from a music expert, but even I recognize that saxophone, trombone, and violin are an unusual set of instruments to play together. RoySmith (talk) 17:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
    sending a hug, RoySmith! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
I have no real objections to ALT0. I'd lose "from Gilbert Amy" for concision and would put "ensemble intercontemporain violinist" at the start in lieu of "violinist for the ensemble intercontemporain", but I'd let a prepbuilder make that decision.--Launchballer 20:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support ALT7a. Grimes2 (talk) 19:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
  • I'm giving this some thought, and I'm thinking of another offer. I could approve ALT7a, but I could also offer a modified version of the original hook as a possible option:
ALT0a ... that ensemble intercontemporain violinist Maryvonne Le Dizès once commissioned a trio for saxophone, trombone, and violin?
I'm skeptical that the mention of Amy is necessary, but if the desire is to highlight the unusual combination, then perhaps this makes that emphasis clearer? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
ALT0 works for me, but it's more important how Gerda Arendt feels about it. RoySmith (talk) 23:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
The issue with ALT0 is WP:DYKTRIM: the mention of Amy doesn't seem necessary or vital to the actual primary hook angle, hence the offer for ALT0a. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Oh, my bad. I wrote ALT0, but I meant ALT0a. RoySmith (talk) 00:43, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for thinking about ALT0. (How about unstriking it? Also ALT3a?) Of course it is not necessary to mention the composer but it establishes that she didn't commission it from some friend or neighbour but from a notable composer (whose name is even short). Also: I believe we should bring her name - which is already interesting, isn't it - to the front, not the ensemble's. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Trying:
ALT0b: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain, commissioned from Gilbert Amy a trio for saxophone, trombone and violin? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
ALT0b is problematic: one is that it suggests she is currently a violinist (she is obviously not), and second, the mention of Gilbert Amy seems like excessive detail and thus would have to be dropped per WP:DYKTRIM. Is the mention of Amy absolutely necessary, considering DYKTRIM? A possible solution to the issues could be:
ALT0c ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, who served as violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain for over twenty years, once commissioned a trio for saxophone, trombone and violin?
This makes it clear that she served as a violinist while also not making any suggestion that she was the only one, nor that she is still with them. The issue is that Amy is not really central to the main hook fact or at least the interesting part (the unusual combination), and thus would arguably fall under the purview of DYKTRIM. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
This is probably a non-starter considering how dear the mention of the ensemble is to you, but one could argue that a very short and snappy hook like the one below is actually the best option considering the main interesting point is the unusual combination:
ALT0d ... that violinist Maryvonne Le Dizès once commissioned a trio for saxophone, trombone and violin?
At the very least, it is the one closest to the spirit of DYKTRIM: don't be afraid to trim hooks of extraneous information and clauses and the end result is a hook that has too much information and is difficult to process. @Launchballer and RoySmith: What would you prefer: ALT0c or ALT0d? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
I like ALT0d, and encourage Gerda to compromise a bit so we can get this done. The alternative would be to close this as a failed nomination with people unable to agree on a hook. RoySmith (talk) 12:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
I have no issue with ALT0c or ALT0d and would assess either.--Launchballer 13:18, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
ALT0d ALT0e: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, who served as violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain for over twenty years, commissioned a trio for saxophone, trombone and violin?
ALT0e ALT0f: ... that while Maryvonne Le Dizès served as violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain, she commissioned a trio for saxophone, trombone and violin?
I don't understand what that "once" is good for. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
The reason for the "once" is because it was referring to the fact that it happened once (the time it was commissioned from Amy). It's referring to a specific instance It's a language nuance issue and I understand that English isn't your first language, so it might be hard to explain the nuance involved. Perhaps Launchballer can give an explanation. In addition, is the mention of the ensemble non-negotiable for you? Both Launchballer and RoySmith are open to a hook without it being mentioned, and both ALT0d (and by extension ALT0c) and ALT0e arguably fail WP:DYKTRIM. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
As explained a few times above, the ensemble establishes that she was in the top range of her field. I thought that 4meter4 explained that well. Any woman could have commissioned a little piece with unusual instrumentation, without mentioning the high class. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Forgive me Narutolovehinata5 if I'm being excessively WP:BOLD, but I think at this point we've converged on what should be in the hook and we're just getting caught up in details, so I'm going to approve (only) ALT0f. It's possible we could eventually reach consensus on ALT0g, ALT0h, ALT0i, etc, but I think the amount of effort expended to do that wouldn't be justified. FWIW, I'm a native English speaker (to the extent that's possible for somebody who grew up in Brooklyn) and I think it works better without the "once". RoySmith (talk) 18:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
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