User talk:Sarah777/Archive 30

The Battle of Baltinglass
	Part of the Gombeen Wars
Date	July 21, 1954
Location	Baltinglass, County Wicklow
Result	LOL! (Little Old Lady) victory
Belligerents
James Everett	Old Mrs Cooke
Commanders and leaders
Michel Foucault	The people of Baltinglass
Strength
1	1,000
Casualties and losses
0	0

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Sarah777. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 25

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Transport in Ireland

Sarah, I know you've an interest in transport articles. Is there any reason why the Transport in Ireland article deals with the entire island? All of the other "transport" articles are arranged by country, and there's even a template at the bottom of the Transport in Ireland country that lists the countries. The UK has an article and also covers Northern Ireland. Thoughts? --HighKing (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The article refers to the entire island so maybe it should be called "Transport on the island of Ireland". An article called "Transport in America" would not go by that name if it included Canada because of the ambiguity. Most people in the world likely to read this article (other than those who maintain the British pov grip on local articles) would assume "Ireland" refers to the sovereign country rather than the island. I certainly think the title is ambiguous and confusing to the average reader. Sarah777 (talk) 13:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

File:BothEyes.jpg missing description details

Dear uploader: The media file you uploaded as File:BothEyes.jpg is missing a description and/or other details on its image description page. If possible, please add this information. This will help other editors to make better use of the image, and it will be more informative for readers.

If the information is not provided, the image may eventually be proposed for deletion, a situation which is not desirable, and which can easily be avoided.

If you have any questions please see Help:Image page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of that image would be a happy event - at this stage it is a view of the past! Sarah777 (talk) 08:31, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Wiki not pro-Israeli enough??!

Check this out! Amongst the issues they have is that the map of Israel doesn't include the Occupied Territories. Surreal. Sarah777 (talk) 10:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

It will be interesting to see how the Wiki Establishment handles organised "Zionist Editing"! Sarah777 (talk) 10:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

"There are frequent flare-ups between competing volunteer editors and obsessives who run Wikipedia." Interesting distinction. Rockpocket 17:25, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

As you know Rock, I'd be the last person to describe the folk who run Wikipedia as obsessives :) Sarah777 (talk) 02:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

CNN is declaring mid-east peace talks as BREAKING NEWS again. Why do those folks make such a fuss about a conflict that'll never end (as long as Israel exists). GoodDay (talk) 13:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Ahem....just spotted this. The Management of this page would like to point out that the views expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the management. Sarah777 (talk) 08:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Eh, did you know the Israelis & the Palestinians, are just a stones throw away from each other? PS: Imagine having a rock concert there. GoodDay (talk) 21:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Myles "the slasher" Reilly

Hi Sarah. I was updating the Finnea article and saw an unexplained and uncited reference to "the slasher". I assumed it was vandalism by some obscure local bucklepper and saddle sniffer but I see you created the article and I know you to be a responsible editor from my work on Irish articles, so now I assume it is not vandalism. Would you like to add a small note to the Finnea article explaining who this character is, please? Now I'm curious. --O'Dea (talk) 19:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Odea - the "Slasher" is not fictional (or at least he is referenced!) - see photo (in the image gallery on the article) of a momunemt to Myles which is located in the centre of the village. Sarah777 (talk)

btw - I like "local bucklepper and saddle sniffer" :) Articles on Irish places are plagued by them - usually added Friday night after a few scoops I'd guess. Y'know, under "People" - "The Byrne family became internationally famous in the 1950s because they could, quite literally, talk through their ass*****"! Agus mar sin. Sarah777 (talk) 08:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't spot that Slasher monument photograph, but now I have updated the reference to the Slasher in Finnea by reference to the picture. As for the yahoos of Ireland (I have heard that saddle sniffers are known in Cork as "snedgers") the ultimate sniffer I ever saw was in a bar in Edenderry where skydivers were wetting their thirsts after a day falling from the skies west of the town. One of the group, a tall, good-looking, urbane Trinity student in a cool leather jacket, went to the bar to order a very large round of stout. A local red-haired and red-faced saddle sniffer was leaning his elbow on the bar, studying the skydiving jackeens enjoying themselves raucously in the quiet bar. The ebullient outsiders were well known in the town for their energetic drinking every weekend. After studying the Trinity student for a minute, the red yokel asked straight out without any greetings or preliminaries (and you must hear this in a very broad midlands accent), "Is it easy for a skydiver to get his hole in Edenderry?" --O'Dea (talk) 20:25, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Parrot thingy

Omigod - ain't he cute?! I had a beanie baby just like him once. I used to act out the the dead parrot sketch with him! Sarah777 (talk) 08:56, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes Sarah. Ve'y cute. I have this video of me with lories landing at several venues shoulders, arms, head etc. because I bought the $3 little cup of sugar water they sell at Lion Country in Loxahatchee. The colors are really fantastic, I guess though the novelty of having them landing everywhere would soon wear out. In the video, I look like one of those scarecrows... arms stuck out, birds not in the least averse to landing on me.

Thought you and several of your TPWs might get a kick out of this from the New York Times. Of course we know all of this. Imagine the volumes the troubles related and IECOLL related article discussions etc. would fill. Remember too that when the history of Wikipedia is written and scholars decades from now look in to the sad state of the first ten years when Ireland couldn't get a properly named article, we—dare I say!— (at least those of us who can see the light here on your page) —we will no longer cut the Quixotic figures of today. Right or wrong? (long song, don't call 'em rednecks, though, this is good sh*t) Sswonk (talk) 01:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I read that article too the other day! Still wonder about the Number Nine volume being out of order :) Sarah777 (talk) 02:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, I did not notice that. What is it, "a missequencing"?? Unlikely word... Here's a more direct link to the blog post and photos for those interested. Sswonk (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Tempus fugit

Good Lord! Is it the 12th September since I last checked in here? Sarah777 (talk) 20:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking about leading a Wikipedia search party after you. Glad to have you back. What happened? I was away from Wikipedia for the entire month of September due to a power surge wiping out my PC's monitor.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I was hiding in the long grass. Sarah777 (talk) 18:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Would I be impertinent for asking with whom?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Is this the same Sarah who was a wikiholic? Jack forbes (talk) 18:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

My name is Sarah and I am a Wikiholic. But I've been on the wagon for months. There is always the danger that just one quick harmless edit could lead to a torrent. Who knows? Sarah777 (talk) 20:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

On the wagon? It sounds like you're performing in a remake of Rawhide. Say hi to Clint for me! LOL. P.S. Stay around this joint for a while, it's boring without ye.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:41, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm still here...in a detached kinda way. Sarah777 (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Any chance of making it 'semi-detached'? Its toooo quiet around here :- ) RashersTierney (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

An Invite to join the Highways WikiProject

- - - - - - - - - - - - WikiProject Highways - - - - - - - - - - - -
		Shortcuts WP:HWY WP:HWY/E WP:HWY/AS WP:HWY/AF WP:HWY/O WP:HWY/LA
Hi, Sarah777, you are graciously extended an invitation to join the International Highways WikiProject and its new regional taskforces! The Highways WikiProject is an evolving and expanding WikiProject. We are a group of editors who are dedicated to creating, revising, and expanding articles, lists, categories, and Wikiprojects, or anything related to International Roads. This includes supporting existing regional road WikiProjects and fostering the development of new international highway WikiProjects. We have recently created five regional task forces focused on Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania and Latin America. To improve road and highway articles, here are guidelines for B class criteria. Please add any higher GA, FA quality articles to the international roads portal. Also, please help out by inviting new or unfamiliar editors with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Highways/New articles/Invite template.

We look forward to welcoming you to the project!

JCbot (talk) 01:53, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

hi from redking7

hi thre Sarah777. no particular reason for this note save to remind you I still exist. My ban, of over a year ago now, was permanent. I was banned by Administrator William Connolly back then. He, in turn, was stripped of this Administrator position just days later owing to abuse. But my right to edit was never re-installed and one or two others came along and simply "upheld" the existing ban....A "Bermingham 1" type of situation more or less. The actual reason for my permanent ban related to something I did in one or more of a dozen articles (described on my talk page) over the course of a few days in September 2009. I describe each edit on my talk page and ask the Administrator (Luna - I think) who was then upholding the ban to explain why any of those edits warranted a permanent (or indeed any) ban. There was no response. Who could be bothered investing a modicum of time in these matters....

Any way, hope you are still fighting the good fight. Wikipedia is about competing little alliances - rather than competing intellects....The edits I was banned permanently for related to Taiwan. My editiig history speaks for itself but broadly, on a number of articles there are lists of states that Taiwan has diplomatic missions to. All sorts of countries were included (like France and Germany and others). The basic fact is that none of these stated (only 23 states do so in the world) have diplomatic missions to or from or relations with the Republic of China (Taiwan)....On an intellectual basis (if thats not too grand a way to put it), there was no question but that I was entirely correct. BUT i had never bothered much with building up alliances or cultivating friends on this website...Thats not what I was interested in. So, as my edits offended certain political sensibilities, I was quickly banned and not having any alliance myself, no one bothered to speak up for me. Though I am talking to Rashers Tierney and Red King on their talk pages at the moment. The good thing is that being banned has meant I don't spend much time editing on WP as I did for a period. There has been some positive "activity displacement" effects which is no harm. More anon. Redking7. 109.78.198.253 (talk) 10:22, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello Red, I've been seriously away from Wiki myself this year as, frankly, I've given up on any attempt to mitigate Anglo-American bias. Abuse such as you have suffered is not unlike the sort of s*** I went through earlier and but for a few "allies" I'd have been done'n'dusted several years ago after the ridiculous Fozzie ban. Bit like Julian Assange - they snare you on some ridiculous technical issue and you end up serving life 'cos they just don't let you out. Sarah777 (talk) 09:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

They want him available while the US thinks up some "crime" to charge him with - and of course they have to maneuverer him into a pliant country - Sweden seems to be the puppet of choice. Sarah777 (talk) 09:52, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I've reported the IP to the Administrators noticeboard for ban-evasion. I'm guessing nothing will be done, since the IP has only contacted 2 User-talkpages. GoodDay (talk) 23:06, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Thats 3 TPs GD. RK7 seems to think that his grievances re his initial block exempts him from more intractable sanction for socking, as you've pointed out on more than one occasion. He's making it impossible for anyone to help get his editing on the 'straight and narrow'., and he is loosing the good will of everyone that was inclined towards taking a sympathetic interest. RashersTierney (talk) 01:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I see, he used a previous IP account (84.203.65.99). Too bad, as this only hurts his chances over getting unbanned. GoodDay (talk) 01:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you mean unblocked, but the continued socking makes the difference moot. RashersTierney (talk) 02:07, 19 December

2010 (UTC)

Com'on Rashers - some wee bit of forgiveness must be in order? After a year? Serious criminals get less time than that for good behavior! Sarah777 (talk) 00:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Good behavior by blocked eds is usually met with a favourable response long before an extended period, much less a year, has passed. Socking usually just starts the clock again. I've advised RK7 on a few occasions about rehab, as have several others. I think he could contribute here positively but he needs to sort things out at his TP. BTW, good to see you back. Hope to see more eds and especially pics :- ) RashersTierney (talk) 01:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Semi-Retirement?

Howdy Sarah. I noticed ya rarely venture beyond your userpage these days. What's up? GoodDay (talk) 06:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, what's going on? Don't tell me you are on the verge of retirement?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:21, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Uncompromising

Yes indeed Sarah you have been away, and it is no doubt attributable to your uncompromising spirit. All one has to do is read your last comments from this month to learn that...if a lesson is really needed for those who read you regularly. I have nothing of note to add, it is not even a David versus Goliath picture you paint...more like the ant and the rubber tree plant. I'll just ramble on and quote the Grateful Dead here, and hope against any claim of © infringement. This is from the song Touch of Grey, I think it fits as the Dead never really compromised their musical style and practice, boiled steamed and cooked throughout by Americana...they're not listed in the article, but I really don't give enough of a fuck to want to edit it. The song is their biggest hit; I always felt he (Jerry Garcia) was getting the last laugh with this one. So, here goes, have a glorious final days of 2010:

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
but it's all right.

Cows giving kerosene
Kid can't read at seventeen
The words he knows are all obscene
but it's all right

I will get by / I will get by
I will get by / I will survive

The shoe is on the hand it fits
There's really nothing much to it
Whistle through your teeth and spit
'cause it's all right.

Oh well a Touch Of Grey
Kind of suits you anyway.
That was all I had to say
It's all right.

(sauce: http://artsites.ucsc.edu/GDead/agdl/touc.html)

I'll be thoroughly shocked if you don't dispute it, after all that is what I meant by the title. Sswonk (talk) 04:28, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Hogmanay greeting

Thank you very much for working with me in 2010 to make the encyclopedia a better place. Regardless of any disagreements we may have had, I want to wish you all the very best for 2011. I look forward to working with you, and I hope for health and happiness to you and your family in the year to come. I therefore send you this glass of the cratur, so you can celebrate, whether it is Hogmanay or New Year's Day where you are. Warmest regards, --John (talk) 04:58, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Massacre

As you are listed in the box at the start of Talk:List of events named massacres this is a heads up to let you know that I have listed Massacre for an AfD See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Massacre. (Just in case you are loitering and if not then you can see the outcome on your return) -- PBS (talk) 08:07, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit warring?

I reverted one edit. Once. Not an edit war by any measure... Gabhala (talk) 00:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

OK. But don't make a habit of it. Sarah777 (talk) 00:53, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I note you are a bit of a polyglot. That's admirable. Sarah777 (talk) 00:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

You what, now? Do you try to piss people off, or is it a natural by-product of your personality?Gabhala (talk) 01:00, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

It's a gift; but I like to share it. Sarah777 (talk) 01:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, that was a tad harsh on my part. Apologies.Gabhala (talk) 01:05, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

No prob G. Those of us who dish it out must be prepared to accept some incoming fire :) Sarah777 (talk) 01:07, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

L8283 is Inistioge, or thereabouts, yeah? I've met some good friends from KK...Gabhala (talk) 01:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

No idea! My lane is the 8282....the Devil is in the detail :) Sarah777 (talk) 01:26, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

lol, my bad...but how far apart can they be?Gabhala (talk) 01:29, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, my lane is in Wickla....close but no cigar! Sarah777 (talk) 01:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Rolling back

This is a mighty function! I haven't really used it till now; but it's just the man for the reversion of six pints and a batter-burger wits who come here after midnight on Friday and Saturday. Adding stuff to the local village articles like "the most famous resident is Seanie Ryan who got the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for his discovery of Tinahelyum, a substance that turns gobdaws from Wexford into human beings" Sarah777 (talk) 01:41, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed it is! Welcome for however long. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 02:07, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Ty WW! Maybe time to add a few more villages to the collection? Sarah777 (talk) 02:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Peeping in

Hi Folks - Happy Christmas, New Year, and Easter! RL is absorbing my mighty energy :) I just read a book Purple Hibiscus and was fascinated by it so I browsed the author to find her article needs a tidy-up. So here I am. Sarah777 (talk) 06:44, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Upon closer scrutiny, it doesn't need a clean-up! Sarah777 (talk) 06:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe it, Wikipedia's Prodigal Daughter has returned! How are you? btw, Happy Paddy's Day!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:11, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Jeanne - me finest - getting ready to celebrate! - you? Sarah777 (talk) 07:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Here in Italy people are celebrating the 150th anniversity of Italian unity. Will you be going to Dublin today?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:18, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

That's where I am! How is Mr Berlusconi these - any invites? :) Sarah777 (talk) 07:22, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Lucky you! I am so nostalgic for Dublin's Fair City (or Dirty Old Town as it was known back in the 1980s).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

March 17 looking down to Boston

Hi, SarahLuckyTrips, I took this this morning after finally getting a somewhat clear day. I think I'll go for a greener shot later; I did what I could with Photoshop but the winter's end dreariness and slight haze at least tell the gritty truth about the view. Wasn't going to bother uploading but then I just now saw you have made a drop in, so this is for you. Hello Jeannie as well, always missing Dublin, you should go already! All that natural beauty and Catholic psychology mixed together make your book/soul interesting, S. Nice peep. Sswonk (talk) 03:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Sswonk - I was in Moscow till yesterday (don't ask); when I left it was -8C and snowing. Long winters. Has Jeanne written a book??! Sarah777 (talk) 23:36, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

No clickable links in the photo?! Like....I can't read the signs:) Sarah777 (talk) 00:59, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Sarah, I have written loads of unfinished books from the time I was in my teens. (Shudder). Sswonk, as for possessing natural beauty and Catholic psychology, I'm afraid I dye my hair and I happen to be a Protestant (having had an excommunicated Irish Catholic father doesn't really endow me with a Catholic psychology seeing as my Protestant mother-a direct descendant of Richard Townsend and George Walker-took me to Sunday School!)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:20, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Aftermath

I have been thinking about writing a book, which may be tough since I have trouble getting through them. I have nearly a dozen in bookmarked status. Conquering them is not easy with the distractions and ease of use provided by the internet. For Jeanne, I dearly love you from my heart, and would never want to hurt you, but I was writing that last sentence to "S." as in "Sarah", would have ended it with "J." or "JB" for you. This is not to say that you don't possess natural beauty. Or dyed beauty. You certainly do, and we have this among numerous examples, and I have provided an interpretation of another which I will post at your talk page within the hour. Be patient, though, there has been a major technical problem with the thumbnail/image processor servers in the past several hours, the display may not be instantaneous.

As for religion, "is big problem in world at moment" as Sarah's friends in Moscow might say so I try not to comment on what individuals believe. So, to recap in the aftermath of the above comments, parsing the sentence goes/went like this: All that natural beauty and Catholic psychology mixed together (natural African beauty and Catholic psychology to be found in the book Sarah read, Purple Hibiscus) make your book/soul interesting, S. (started was supposed to be "make your book sound interesting, Sarah." but made three typos in the course of typing five words, took a look at repairing it and decided it was slightly ironic, mysterious, cryptic and plaintive, so let it stand). …Ireland, the pictures Sarah takes, Sarah's particular outlook and natural humor have a parallel natural beauty and certainly are influenced by the predominant religion of the republic à la the hibiscal tome. Makes zero sense related to what I meant, but fun to know about Dick Townsend, will read up. But not a book, I have several to finish. To the woman not living in Sicily: wait a few for a click on those signs, I have to think about that. When you get back, you unquestionably get back as I see below. Ciao. Sswonk (talk) 16:37, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Click away

Try the hint on the now clickable photo, and the linked film clip is worth watching all the way through. The Beatles used the idea a few months later in the film Let it Be. Not as precise or useful as the R280 road sign, however musical like the Órla Fallon, no? Пока – Sswonk (talk) 18:09, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Irish counties.

Sarah, I notice that you've changed the leads for many counties. You may not be aware of this, but as a result of a very long debate on the Wikiproject Ireland, that the lead convention has been stabilised. I think that you should revert them in recognition of this. Thanks. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:22, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. There is a consensus for them that has been very stable. I've reverted a couple already though it would be best for Sarah to do the rest themself. Also there is no need to reword them when they already match the IMoS so that you can remove the "Republic of" bit and add in a pointless pipe-link "island of Ireland" to counties of Ireland - pipe-link rules don't allow for Easter egg links. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:37, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

In fact as Snappy has also reverted a few of them, i'll go about reasserting the hard-worked consensus that was casually disregarded. Then again if an editor didn't know of it, you can't entirely blame them. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:55, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Can someone point to the discussion/consensus please? -HighKing (talk) 12:11, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

HighKing: I can't definitively, wasn't involved. I have waited for the participants to answer you but so far both have been silent. I can point to "So what exactly is a traditional county of Ireland?", which I have read, but I can't really find consensus stated in no uncertain terms as such (that is, "Here is what we have decided" etc.) in that little 12,175 word discussion—a near novella—from (mostly) June of 2010. There is this: "Thank you. I've amended the Northern Ireland ledes to the stop-gap lede. I also took the liberty of fixing the Republic of Ireland county ledes to " is one of the twenty-six counties of the Republic of Ireland, and also one of the thirty-two counties of Ireland" instead of the "traditional" and exluding "Republic of Ireland" style. (Mabuska)." diff. Here is an example of one of the county changes, they are mostly all the same and done all at once, along with map changes the same day. It had said "County Limerick (Contae Luimnigh in Irish) is a county in the province of Munster, located in the mid-west of Ireland with County Clare to the north, (etc.)" from 2002 to 2009, then in May 2009 changed to "County Limerick (Irish: Contae Luimnigh) is one of the traditional Counties of Ireland. It is located within the province of Munster in the Republic of Ireland." Then, the next month the same editor revised it again to "County Limerick (Irish: Contae Luimnigh) is one of the traditional counties of Ireland and is located within the province of Munster. It was named after the city of Limerick (Irish: Luimneach)." That's how it read until Mabuska introduced the wording we now enjoy. That liberty taking, which as near as anything there addresses the changes Sarah "casually disregarded" by going back to "exluding [sic]" style, was that. I note also the odd reference to Sarah as "themself". HighKing, should Sarah change her name to Sybil? You know, like if a group Sarah disagreed with found consensus for that and no one noticed or otherwise objected, maybe…no. I hope this summary at least helps answer your question. Sswonk (talk) 03:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I too had looked and could find nothing approaching a consensus, and nothing in the all-important IMOS. I completely disagree with the current opening, and see it as a stilted effort to introduce "Republic of Ireland" into an article and avoid using the pipelink. I'll be changing the intros straight away. --HighKing (talk) 17:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, reading some of the discussion, it's not that simple. Seems that some editors wanted to mention the traditional 32 counties aspect, and others wanted to mention the state and province. I didn't participate in the older discussion, and a lot of thought went into it. But I believe it has resulted in a poor opening lede that tried too hard to be all things to everyone. If I'm the only dissenting voice, I'll drop it, but are there others who also believe the ledes are poor and should be looked at again? --HighKing (talk) 17:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

My feeling is that exactly when you mention an effort to get Republic of Ireland into the lead. It was a conscious part of the agenda from the very beginning. While most of the discussion used Antrim over and again as the 'cosnsensus' builder example, then 'oh-by-the-way liberty taken' the twenty-six got the non "exluding" description as a bonus at the very end. On the same day in the same series of edits the same editor also changed all the maps for the counties. The maps were previously of the style of File:Ireland_location_Limerick.jpg with a description "County Limerick highlighted on an outline map of Ireland." The new maps, while technically a visual improvement I must say as a person who creates and appreciates maps, hold descriptions of the style "The island of Ireland, showing international border between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland, traditional provinces, traditional counties, and local authority areas in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland." To me there is no question there is a point of view and sociolinguistic message being sent with both sets of edits, the maps and then the county article leads. However, I will be met with denial in expressing that view and have it turned on its head at me, no doubt. That windy new file description says much under its breath. In response, I say it is Limerick, one of the counties of Ireland for centuries. If that doesn't answer the long discussion's OP, who asked "so what exactly is a traditional county of Ireland?", well you know why walking away seems like the only solution at times. Now to get called uncivil, I suppose. Uncivil? Am I? Are we? Is she? Who? Of course you are right, HighKing, I for one agree. Sswonk (talk) 02:49, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Very well put Sswonk and I have to agree with your sentiment. Perhaps a change of description on the maps would be a move in the right direction? Bjmullan (talk) 07:55, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks HK, Sswonk etc. It is clear that this was systematically done last June, overturning the long-standing consensus. I will be reverting to the original pipe-linked formulation in compliance and you might assist me with this as we seem to have a "team" operating to insert the description "Republic of Ireland" as frequently and prominently as possible. This is provocative, disruptive and contrary to very long-standing consensus on the piping of the descriptive "RoI". Possibly this is being done in preparation for the next debate on the imposition of British pov on the title of the Ireland article (which is due due soon). One of the rather limp arguments in the previous debate on the British side was "all the changes" that would have to be made to facilitate an appropriate title for the article about sovereign Ireland. Sarah777 (talk) 12:02, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Independent of your observations, I had come to the same conclusion. It is in preparation of something, maybe the visit to Croke Park in May? Seriously though, they are moves in support of those arguments made by BW, etc. from the past and will serve to facilitate the same crew's stances in the upcoming lift of the two year moratorium. There is no reason to go ape changing them all at once, inviting sniping and rudeness and getting blocks though; the effort can move apace to gracefully restore the leads to what had existed for many years without getting caught up. Sswonk (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

It's my hot blood Sswonk :) Didn't Jimmy Wales himself say that he only wants collaborators on Wiki? He certainly has a lot of them working in the Irl Project! Sarah777 (talk) 19:40, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I believe all this should be in an appropriate venue and not on someones talk page. Though HighKing you had a chance to particpate in the original discussions. Don't complain when we you don't like what came out of them when you didn't participate, or was that when you and LevenBoy where in the middle of your deletion/insertion of BI war? Also at all of you - if there was any disagreement at the time of change then why did no-one at the time perform WP:BRD? No point complaining almost a year afterwards when you guys (other than Sarah777) where active on Wikipedia.

At Sswonk, yes the maps and county ledes where done around the same time as the discussions came up and where held at the same time. As an active member of Wikipedia you should of chipped in instead of yapping off and complaining about it now throwing conspiracy crap about. Whilst i implemented the changes, there was a hell of a lot of talk in the end and there was no complaints of dissent when it was implemented. If you disagreed you should of raised it up at the time. Those i disagreed with didn't object at the time of implementing a stop-gap measure that was only intended to be used as we took a break on the issue until it was raised again which none of us did so you can say that by silence they where accepted by a undeclared silent consensus. WP:BRD afterall. Don't spout off just because you don't like it now.

Also Sswonk as i just detailed over at the WikiProject Ireland in response to maps, check out the editor who came up with the description in the first place and query are they an RoI unpiped pusher or part of the "conspiracy"? Who came up with the description? Check out here in the original base file [1]. Is RA part of a conspiracy to add RoI unpiped everywhere? Thats very laughable especially seeing as it was RA that i was argueing most with in the two issues as we didn't and still don't see eye to eye on those issues and what we ended up with was a compromise on both our ends.

You do know you lot can particpate in the discussions, rather than complain when you don't like it. Sarah777 has an excuse as they were away. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Ye Gods! If I can't talk about it on my own talk page where can I talk about it?! Sarah777 (talk) 15:03, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, wait a minute I have literally just logged on, but Mabuska we are very free to discuss these topics here and have done so often. I have not once been scolded about talk page banter, it is not appropriate for you to do so, and even if Jimmy Wales himself complained about it, which he most definitely would not given his nature, I would be inclined to strongly disagree directly to him as well. I will go see what the situation is at the Ireland project, where I have commented about "all this" with more formality but saying essentially the same things. On my page, I addressed Snappy, here I tried to assist HighKing and share agreement with Sarah. That's it, and will do so a thousand times in the future. It wasn't intended or expected that you reply to any of it. For the love of whoever, lighten up please. Sswonk (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I said i believe this should be in a more appropriate venue. You can talk about it wherever you want, i'm not denying that, but when you are making "agenda" claims about otehr editors and throwing hints of conspiracy around the place, a more relevant place for those editors to view such uncivil comments would be better in my opinion. Not declaring that you have to, just what i believe. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:20, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Also sorry if i am getting heated and arguementative. I just didn't like Sswonk's tone or hints and it got me annoyed, though Hafterall, Sswonk as you quoted, i made it clear the additions that i did in regards to "twenty-six counties of the Republic of Ireland". Was there any complaints or vocal opposition at the time??? Asarlaí and Scolaire didn't and they posted right after that comment. Consensus and agreement by silence and lack of opposition no? However regardless, RoI unpiped is vindicated as we are declaring the island and state together, and well would you rather have the counties being stateless? As after all County Limerick was last a county in the Republic of Ireland, not the pre-1921 Ireland. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:40, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

You seem happy to leave Northern Ireland stateless. Sarah777 (talk) 07:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Response

Been away again a bit. There is no "consensus" other than the removal of unnecessary introduction of the demeaning description "Republic of Ireland" when it isn't clearly "needed" for disambig purposes. Kindly do not revert my edits to remove these provocative inclusions which run counter the the IMOS. Sarah777 (talk) 11:39, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Kindly stop edit warring and removing the intro to Irish county articles. This was agreed at WikiProject Ireland and a long discussion. Just because you were not editing at the time, doesn't give you the right to come back in and unilaterally revert an agreed consensus. Snappy (talk) 12:37, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Please link me to this "consensus" to overturn the pre-existing (over 6 years) consensus. Any, the new lead is simply misleading in relation to many counties. Retract the accusation of edit-warring or stay off this page. OK? Sarah777 (talk) 12:40, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The discussion took place here. If you do not agree with its outcome, feel to start a new discussion. But don't pretend that there is some mythical previous consensus that somehow trumps the new one. Consensus can and does change. Snappy (talk) 12:48, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Lol! Read this discussion by a tiny handful of editors. There is absolutely nothing in that discussion approaching a consensus to overturn established practice re piping! Sarah777 (talk) 13:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

In view of the fact that you have failed to establish any basis for your charge of edit warring I now call on you to withdraw the charge and apologise, otherwise you are in clear breach of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Sarah777 (talk) 13:03, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

By my count their were at least 12 editors participating, not tiny and more than a handful. IMOS is quite clear about piping when their is room for confusion and it applies in this case. Please start a new discussion rather than unilaterally reverting edits because you don't like it. The result of the most recent discussion was a compromise, nobody was entirely happy but it was felt we could all live with it. See WP:Consensus for more. Snappy (talk) 13:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I see Mabuska has started a new discussion on WikiProject Ireland, feel free to pitch in! Snappy (talk) 13:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Believe me Snappy I don't need or desire your permission to "pitch in"! Sarah777 (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Even if Sarah777 was convinced of the merits of reverting, a signal to the Project in advance would have been the mannerly way to proceed. As a confirmed unilateralist, I have found that it doesn't always work in the end. At any rate, users Mabuska, Snappy et al are right: there was a hard fought consensus - neither camp mwas totally happy with the result but both could live with the compromise. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I was unaware of any discussion or "consensus" that would merit notifying the Project about anything. I spotted what looked some pov edits and fixed them; then I got accused of edit warring and responded. I've also noted that while the discussion was taking place I was in and out of here editing in a very minor way - but nobody informed anyone outside the participants that there was a discussion going on. I could have been editing @500 edits per week, creating articles, reverting vandals, adding photos and all the usual stuff and still been oblivious to any "discussion" of note. Sarah777 (talk) 07:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back

Hey! Good to see you back. Need any help? --John (talk) 07:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

In the psychiatric sense? - the jury is out!! (Seriously, I think we have a proper debate going over at the Irl Proj page). Regards Sarah777 (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Troublesome Wikipedians

This category is growing by the moment, while some of its members are undoubtedly genuine socks, trolls, vandals and menaces to the project - it's also a sort of Wikipedia version ofSherwood Forest because in this category dwell many great content editors who have been thrown into this lonely almost outlawed country by the Arbcom or a collective of Admins. At one time or another these people have dissented, openly criticised, dared to oppose or just failed to conform. When this happens, the Arbcom makes its displeasure known, word goes out subtly on IRC and elsewhere, and an invisible target is pinned to the editors back - note I say pinned to his back, nothing is ever up-front and honest. Once the character assassination is completed the gullible will always believe it. From that moment onwards the Troublesome editor's every edit and comment is watched - his images are meticulously scanned for any hint of a wrong tag, reference cites appear on every statement of fact, a new page may be AFD'd - all silly little things designed to irritate, in a thousand different little ways he is trolled and baited - sometimes such campaigns have been openly orchestrated on IRC - then as inevitably happens the trolled "Troublesome Editor" looses his temper - and quick as a flash "got him" goes the cry and the little Admins-On-The-Make move in and ban him - all join in the chorus of support for the block on ANI - Fait accompli, and unless unlike me he is quite high profile and/or has lots of friends he is stuck in his place of limbo. The Arbcom are now wising up to the fact that these punitive blocks performed by their lackeys are hard to maintain, especially when placed on high profile editors, so unless something is done we can expect to see them making more decisions such as this[2] to counter what is going to become an increasing problem for them, as they try desperately to cling to power.

This isn't mine. But is it right or what? A special prize for anyone who can finger the author!

Sarah777 (talk) 22:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Was wondering how I missed all that drama - then noticed it's from nearly three years ago... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:08, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The truth is timeless. (Mind you, I only discovered it today ;) Sarah777 (talk) 23:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

As George Clinton said, "Smell my finger". The author you wanted fingering is User:Giano II, also known as User:GiacomoReturned, written on 31 August 2008. — O'Dea (talk) 20:54, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I guess '93 was a good year to be a Clinton. Yes you are correct: you win this years golden bunny award :) Sarah777 (talk) 02:15, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Beautiful tones in your POTD, today.

Talk:Illicit drug use in Ireland. — O'Dea (talk) 20:31, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Best served freshly picked and fried Sarah777 (talk) 02:18, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah! I wondered why you linked to the talk page! I thought I was adding a tag to the article. (Which I did). This reminds me of a time many moons ago when I inadvertently tagged a whole string of "schools" articles with a "lighthouse project" tag. Upon reflection, maybe not that inappropriate. Sarah777 (talk) 02:33, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

No, really inappropriate and a little unfortunate, so fun's over. I didn't see you as so beyond caring that you would start trolling, or becoming an asshole. It's fucked up enough around here, please don't become a problem yourself. Sswonk (talk) 03:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I am unable to determine if Swonk's comment about trolling is directed at me or Sarah777. In any case, this comment is to Sarah777 — This vicious, interfering case of heartburn called Swonk deleted a comment I left for you at Talk:Illicit drug use in Ireland and then left a nasty little busybody note on my talk page. Sometimes I fucking loathe Wikipedia and consider quitting because of the godawful fucking nastiness of the people in it. For a supposedly collaborative project founded on an idealistic principle, it can get sickeningly ugly. I don't have much faith in humanity but I'd like to be able to cling to the few scraps I have left. — O'Dea (talk) 03:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I wrote it to Sarah, and wished you to get a similar message. Don't turn into an asshole. Obviously you missed the memo. You have bigger problems than I can even comprehend if: 1) you think it was busybodying, 2) you think this website is private and 3) you think you took enough time to consider what I wrote before exploding into a little ugly ball of angst and fits of pride. I could care less what you write on this page, the note was about carrying the cuteness onto an article talk page. Totally inappropriate, and there are right and wrong ways to go about having that conversation O'Dea. Here is a right one. Article talk pages is a wrong one. What would you like, the ability to leave your breadcrumbs of succinct wit and pithyness everywhere, pissing like a dog on each article fire hydrant talk page? I reverted that, and explained, you deserve no less than this for the way you are reacting. Sswonk (talk) 04:19, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Sswonk: Surely you should have written, "I couldn't care less". I care even less for your misinterpretations, misapprehensions, misdiagnoses, and failures to hit any target — even at the rim. Your priggish sanctimony and humbug are repellent. — O'Dea (talk) 04:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Sanctimony. "I could care less" is like many words and phrases a stupid ignorant american way of saying what should use the much better British Irish way. Like color, or z. Except in this case, I could care less. And now I do. Sswonk (talk) 04:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Sswonk, if you were sincere that you couldn't care less what I write on this page, as you stated above, then you would not have hauled my few comments on this page onto your charge sheet, and you would not have said I was heading down a "dangerous path" (for God's sake). You contradict yourself. For the record, Sarah777 is not in any sense a "confidant" of mine as you referred to her on my talk page. I cannot remember ever having spoken to her prior to that singular and brief exchange about saddle sniffers last year that has so agitated you. The disproportionate spitefulness of your actions and remarks makes me suspect that you are really angry about something else, but I cannot imagine what it is, nor am I inclined to care. — O'Dea (talk) 05:18, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Sarah777, I am sorry to have contributed to blasting this ugly bomb crater on your talk page. Unfortunately, I was foolish enough to allow this "ignorant american" (his words) and "interfering busybody" (mine) to get under my skin. — O'Dea (talk) 05:18, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

If I had anything to defend, I would respond. For example, the use of "confidant" was entirely generic. Read at Talk:O'Dea, there is the rest. I have just lost two hours, but meant every word. If Freud were here he could chime in "even the typos." Not batting an eye. Sswonk (talk) 05:52, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I cannot find the proper target language at Google's Translator to render these signals into meaning. — O'Dea (talk) 07:32, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm lost for words! Unusual for me. Sarah777 (talk) 07:48, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Coords template addition

I am wondering what you think of the recent addition to the {{coords}} template, the drop down map. I don't remember when I first saw it or know when it was added, but it is actually built in to the scripts somehow. It took several days for me to notice it so maybe you haven't tried it. If not, go to Athy (for example), go to the upper right where the coordinates and small globe icon are. There you should see an inverted black triangle, which when clicked will drop down a live linked map. Then use the "+" and "-" zoom buttons, and the "hover" feature which will display the opening sentence or two of an article. Certainly you may recognize some of your own text around Athy. Amazing stuff in a way, and reminiscent of an idea you once mentioned about using roads articles as a running narrative of geography information. I do not see it on either fr. or de.wikipedia, so we may be running an experiment on en. What are your thoughts?, I think it is useful if only a bit crude right now. Sswonk (talk) 00:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I like it. (I had noticed the little black thing but paid no attention to it). Makes me think maybe there is some way to make a map showing the R323 pop up?!Sarah777 (talk) 20:06, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Upon closer scrutiny the map is a bit weird. It seems to mark the locations of various German submarines (sunken, I presume) and other oddities. Sarah777 (talk) 20:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

53°47′30″N 8°54′09″W / 53.791728°N 8.902531°W / 53.791728; -8.902531 "Diameter" set to 1km
53°47′30″N 8°54′09″W / 53.791728°N 8.902531°W / 53.791728; -8.902531 "Diameter" set to 50km
53°47′30″N 8°54′09″W / 53.791728°N 8.902531°W / 53.791728; -8.902531 "Diameter" set to 100km
53°47′30″N 8°54′09″W / 53.791728°N 8.902531°W / 53.791728; -8.902531 "Diameter" set to 500km
53°47′30″N 8°54′09″W / 53.791728°N 8.902531°W / 53.791728; -8.902531 "Diameter" set to 1000km

Right. I think the word might be agnostic, it is unconcerned with what it is showing. Maybe oblivious is a better word, just spits out whatever is near, submarine battles, churches, mine shafts, would be nice to be able to filter the context. Weird is a good word. Last night after I wrote the above question, I made sure it was right, clicked on the map drop down at the Athy page, and noticed something. In my mental note: "Sarah is going to say something about the island being surrounded by U-boats." No problem getting in tune on the aesthetics for us I see! One problem is the zoom level defaults to a map several hundred kilometers wide at Athy. It should be more like 20 or 15 for a town, the location at the national scale is already shown by the map in the infobox. I think that would need to be configurable in the software somewhere, coord there currently arises from Infobox Ireland place, which is up for deletion, so... At any rate, I tried setting one up for R323 again above, a coordinate ... trying to tweak scale, not really great. No R323 in sight. Knock it shows. See how that is. I'll see if I can learn more. Sswonk (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Not bad really. I prefer the OpenStreetMap layout to Google Maps though I think OSM still have much of Ireland unmapped. But it certainly gets the reader straight to the location of a point on the R323 and you cam manipulate the map afterwards. A good step forward if no a giant leap; and simple. I was thinking we'd have to specify both end-points of the road and get Google maps to draw the line and then link to the result. (needless to say I have no idea how to do that!)

I presume if this idea was developed to a satisfactory standard for presentation on Wiki we could do something like putting both coordinates at the top of the article (as we do with single place locations) and a click displays the route n a map? Sarah777 (talk) 02:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

[3] is the spot. I really haven't spent any time on it, and will need to to answer your questions. Busy RL and you know with your own too well. If you add the coord to the article, then it would get a link on the map is my general presumption. One of us may find a way to edit the actual maps from that link I just left. I finished the NRA new additions last fall in the infobox motorway maps, a task. You were gone, as is nearly every roads editor, it felt like really no fun doing. Tired right now. Sswonk (talk) 03:18, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Setting the "dim" parameter in the coord template produces the results show by the five examples above. That is the method for setting initial zoom. From what I could determine at the m:Talk:WikiMiniAtlas page, adding a new coordinate to the top of an article will not add it to the map immediately, they are added periodically through scheduled updates. Sswonk (talk) 05:48, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Athy

Seriously good work there Sswonk. Bit slow to load (on Chrome) but brilliant concept! The clickable towns/villages surrounding Athy is a great touch. Sarah777 (talk) 23:15, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Insanely great, says you, not my work, says me. Unless you mean the figuring out of how to set the zoom, which is in my world too mundane to lessen the concept of brilliancy. It should be added to the infobox as a parameter, such as wma_zoom = 100000 and probably will be. (see below for update) I think the servers are getting hit hard as more people figure out what the drop down does, it is slow in FF as well. You know, I reverted you today, don't think I've done that twice in one place or even once, but now I am taking it back. Calling {{talkpage}} "preaching" as you did is...not describable at the moment but I do think those are good practices it lists. However, if I want to keep on your bad side I can always think of other things to do. :). I appreciated the edit summary, off the preaching goes. Wouldn't you love to go now to each geography article on your watchlist and set the zoom? Nah, I would hold off on that, see how the infobox scenario plays out first. I'll check progress and give you a shout. Sswonk (talk) 01:15, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

It's in the {{infobox settlement}} to add the dim, as "coordinates_type = dim:100000_region:IE" added to the list of parameters. These articles use infobox place Ireland, again an ongoing discussion. Sswonk (talk) 01:30, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

See Quincy, Massachusetts and my edit there, where I added the zoom parameter to the infobox settlement. Works nicely. Sswonk (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

"infobox place Ireland" - yuk - I got hammered there because I said I don't like the colours. I'm putting that down to the fact that so many men are colour-blind; obviously more common in the Wiki population than even the general population. I note these sandpit warriors have also taken to putting "battle" infoboxes on every article about an event where a cross word is exchanged. I can just see them pushing their little toy soldiers across the tabletop battlefields.

Beware!

"There were bremagums and stem-guns and whippet tanks galore, As the battle raged up and down from pub to gen'ral store"

Sarah777 (talk) 06:27, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

French view: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athy, vindication for your choice. Talking about the infobox map. I am thinking about, and have before, the travails of a woman editing here on this site. If I think a lot of the sniping is childish male chestbeating, and then read you above, well its not hard to imagine what is keeping the women away. What is it, 4 to 1 men to women? Make that 6 boys, 10 men, 3 women and a girl, ratio wise is my rough guess. Thinking more, it is really not possible for me to understand how it affects you. It is a worthy topic if you feel like riffing on it. You and Jeanne, bantering together for lulz and sanity, I think that helps give some of us a little clue, reading your reactions to things. Which is another reason it is good to have you back. Sswonk (talk) 01:29, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

And another thing:

"Try the hint on the now clickable photo, and the linked film clip is worth watching all the way through. The Beatles used the idea a few months later in the film Let it Be. Not as precise or useful as the R280 road sign, however musical like the Órla Fallon"

The Boston/Medford highway pic caught my eye and I spotted a link to the guys on the roof in New York - first thing I thought was whether that was before or after the Beatles. And I spotted Jeanne - Hi Jeanne! I think excommunicated Catholic father makes you one of the girls! What did he do? Bit of Warlocking? It isn't easy to get excommunicated these days. Or so I'm told :) Sarah777 (talk) 07:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

My dad got divorced from his first wife, and married my mother (a Protestant). To add fuel to the bonfire, he let her raise myself and siblings in the Protestant faith (complete with King James Bible and Sunday School) rather than Catholic. So no more holy wafers for him. His mother, a devout Catholic from Mayo, was heart-broken over it. To make amend he persuaded my mother to permit my sisters to be baptised Catholic (yet raised Protestant). When my grandmother died, there were no more Catholic baptisms making my brother and me fully-fledged Protestants.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

"A fully fledged Protestant"! On he subject of writing a book I haven't started any unfinished books (or finished ones) yet. I say yet in a kind of never say never way. Most people who can write a decent book read voraciously - like Sswonk I'm of the 10-bookmarked-tomes-on-the-bedside-table school of distraction. If you want an "unputdownable" yarn pulp fiction is yer only man. Sarah777 (talk) 07:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Now - someone please slap a sticker here warning me that this isn't the sort of chit-chat Wiki talk pages are for. Com'on. Make my day. Sarah777 (talk) 07:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Ironically both husbands and all my four children are Catholic.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:30, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

WHAT?!!!?

What in the bleeping name of Jimbo are you discussing??!!! Please see WP:PORK, WP:BEANS, WP:EGGS and WP:RASHERS, WP:WC after and then right to bed!!
Edit counter: Add 8 edits for this to my totals, and subtract forty-seven from the other two.

No idea whats going on, but yez can include me out! RashersTierney (talk) 14:56, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I was rushing to finish the box, getting carried away, went suddenly fully Irish and typed it in! We would just use bacon, rashers (the term) is not well known in the US. At any rate, I then thought, RashersTierney is maybe watching, should be fun... incredible, WP:BACON exists. No need to worry, no one has any idea whats going on. Sswonk (talk) 00:22, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Mmm...bacon! OK then, exclude me back in again! RashersTierney (talk) 00:31, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

You have to read this article, Elvis flying his jet in the wee hours with friends to gorge themselves with huge bacon and PBJ loafs with champagne. Chacun à son goût! Here it is, Fool's Gold Loaf. Sswonk (talk) 00:46, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

$100 sandwiches... the old days, bless the mark! RashersTierney (talk) 01:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, reading that made me think of The Cheesecake Factory. Love the food there, but really kills the wallet. Then I skimmed its article... another case of abusing employees! What is it with these restaurants, gouging prices while cheating employees? Stocking up and cooking at home is my revenge. Sswonk (talk) 01:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Like old time days, and really very nice, Jeanne and Sarah. Reading and learning at the same time. I don't claim a religion, technically three-fourths RC and one-fourth Congregationalist, whisper to a scream? Ended up personally disliking most of it a lot. Easy going none the less. I had no idea you have four children, Jeanne. However, I can see how you might decide on... never mind, might be a joke poorly taken. Good stuff, have to head out. Infobox discussions later maybe! Sswonk (talk) 14:03, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Donegal

I think you are getting mixed up with Donegal and County Donegal. You reverted my changes on Donegal, Enya is not from Donegal, she is from Gweedore. Please do not edit pages if you are not knowledgeable on the subject. With thanks.--MaxPride (talk) 00:20, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Just curious. I don't see any edit by you recently at the Donegal article. Are you editing without logging in per chance? RashersTierney (talk) 11:57, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I was me fully logged on, it's in the page history. I restored Enya to the list of people as she had been removed by an IP without any edit comment explaining why. It seems it was User:MaxPride was editing without logging on.

As for "Please do not edit pages if you are not knowledgeable on the subject" - if Max were to follow his own advice he'd never get out of his sandbox :) Sarah777 (talk) 14:31, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The comment above was directed at MaxPride Sarah. Sorry for any confusion. RashersTierney (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course. My bad. Sarah777 (talk) 22:31, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Counties reminder....

Having noticed your recent changes at some county articles, may i remind you there is still this to conclude. Consensus appears to be for option 3, which should thus be implemented. I was expected for HighKing to request a few more editors to give their opinion, but either he has and they haven't responded or he didn't. So should we implement what we can call the new agreed ledes? Mabuska ^(talk) 17:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I've no problem with implementing Option 3 - but it seems User:Hohenloh has. He removed part of the lede in at least four county articles stating that according to Wikipedia, et al, there is no such thing as an administrative county in Ireland. I have no idea if that is correct - but if it is we need an Option 3a.

Sarah777 (talk) 22:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The counties were created and used for administrative purposes, so Hohenloh is mistaken in his assumption. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:58, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Glimmer man

I see that you classified the article as "start class". It is hard to see how much more apart from adding an image if any exists could be added to the article. Silent Billy (talk) 00:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

You have a point. I was ploughing through a huge backlog of unrated (1,500+) and picked things I had heard about, but mainly just to decide if it was a stub or start. There is a few (very few) obvious Cs. I've re-rated "Glimmer Man" to a "C". An image would be a great help though. When articles are about things that are of very local concern it is hard to see how the class can be much higher. In theory an article about the R110 road could be a featured article - but given it's importance and the fact that references will be so limited it is difficult to see how. Maybe WwCensor has a view? He is one of our resident expert on these rating matters. Sarah777 (talk) 00:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed I see you have been busy assessing or reassessing article. I've been working more on image copyright issues but still assess on occasions. I really cannot see any of the, almost 850, Regional roads being rated at more than "Low-importance," though a few very well known ones might qualify for a mid rating. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 02:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Would you be happy with "Glimmer Man" as a C? Could it go higher? Sarah777 (talk) 02:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Certainly a C is good for now, B would need great improvement and focus on the topic but the article has several issues; no lede, only one section. It seems a bit of rambling essay, however, that being said, the bulk is more about the gas companies than the Glimmer man himself, so sectionalising and moving the "A Low Lingering Flame" section up if new sections are created and decapitalising, would improve it in my view. Unfortunately there are likely few WP:RS. I'll look through some of my "Emergency" literature. ww2censor (talk) 16:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

News flash

I made a comment at the mushroom convention about personalities inviting sanctions, which although sadly is true, does not mean I would sanction anyone, just that is what might happen. I think you will understand, just noting it here quickly so you don't think otherwise. Sswonk (talk) 14:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

So you are the anonymous Rice Crispies man! I was out in the hills today on a photographic mission; the weatherman had promised sunshine and it was dull and cloudy all day. Then my beloved Cannon fell into a bog-hole. The when we got back to the carpark, there was the car - gone! Got back about 11pm. My mother told me there'd be days like this. Sarah777 (talk) 00:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, why was the car gone? Note, you did not say "don't ask"! Sswonk (talk) 01:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It was either stolen or abducted by aliens. If I was American I'd go for the latter! :) Sarah777 (talk) 01:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

There has to be a reason. Please tell me you are serious, and what about the camera? Was the car a Camry? That would explain it, maybe, American or not. Then you could blog about the bog that ate your camera and Camry went in after it? Or something? Why would there be car thieves in the hills? Jesus, this is weird. Next thing your car turns up in Sevastopol and you just got back from Mars. I think. Sswonk (talk) 01:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The camera was retrieved at the expense of one person (not me) getting very wet and very muddy. (Call me selfish and heartless). It didn't work at first but now that it is home and dry it seems to have regained its functionality. The car was reported to the Garda, obviously, but it is probably now a burnt-out hulk if it isn't being anally probed. That is as much as I know at this stage. It was a Quashqai (I realise I'm speaking of it in the past tense) - you probably don't have them in America. They are usually black though I have seen a silver one. When they are burnt out they probably all look the same. Let's just hope its Aliens. Sarah777 (talk) 01:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Resembles the Rogue. Would you drive a Rogue, hmmm? Rogue, a non-conformist. Glad the picture taker is alright. I am guessing your bog diver is to be praised, thank him/her for me, you know I enjoy your photo eye. So back to the Quashqai, you are right, they name the devils after what they think the people that live in the countries where they are sold will like. A huge consideration for the carmaker. It might be in this case for NA it would be too close to Sasquatch, and negative connotations therein. Sasquatches and aliens, of those I tend to find higher likelihood of the existence of the former. Don't know if you saw User talk:Skookum1#Never back a sasquatch into a corner, related to something he laid out to Jimbo. Poor fellow, a good writer but obviously snapped at some of the very things that get you and me on the outs with this place for spells. BTW, I am really glad you are here. That "extra space" thing that keeps happening when you post, I think that must be something in gadgets you use that are conflicting. More after you reply. Sswonk (talk) 02:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

This discussion has this lyric playing in my head:

"I don’t gas

my Mercedes after midnight

I treat it like a Mogwai

Cause it will turn into a Gremlin

and run over kids wimmin and men"

! Sarah777 (talk) 02:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Nice! "Fuck your Mitsubishi, I've horse outside" grabs me from time to time. Speaking of cars, and Detroit (Eminem) (I don't recall the song, cheated google way) these photos, I keep going back to them. It is a case of severe urban decay, yet the images and graffiti are right breathtaking. The place, Michigan Central Station, is in some sort of legal limbo. By gadgets, the "extra space" thing, I mean in your wiki preferences, combined with Chrome (you said a couple days ago you use that). I would first try postng with a different browser, then try turning off gadgets (WikEd, Twinkle, HotCat, whatever you may use) until the problem goes away. Then you can relate the results and a possible solution can be found. Sswonk (talk) 02:51, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't use any of them gadgets! (So far as I know). Horse outside was pretty good. I've read a lot about Detroit and it seems to be a modern example of a city being abandoned; they are knocking down neighborhoods and returning them to forest. Over here some folk seem to imagine that something that was built 200 years ago should be preserved forever because....it was built 200 years ago! They have no understanding that Georgian Dublin was as much a speculator/builder boom thingy as the ghost estates in Leitrim. Sarah777 (talk) 03:04, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Horse outside: I smile at the part half way through where the priest and congregants are, like automatons reciting liturgy, obediently bored and following the lyrics to the song. We could indeed be thinking the same thing about the station. I really think, as the wiki article suggests is a possibility, having the Michigan State Police and US Homeland Security take over the place would be Orwell come to life in some ways. So, why not. Tear it down. I lived in Beacon Hill, Boston for a few years: due to my emotional attachment to the history, there are reasons I see for keeping many streets the way they are. There wasn't much there before the Georgian period. They are gaslit and mysterious, hills with small trees and four or five story red brick buildings, very evocative. Like a movie set, someone from the midwest might say. Or, like, the actual street John Hancock lived on I might. I see your perspective, however, will they really not want to tear down the malls in fifty years? I'll read the Georgian Dublin article. Check your preferences, fiddle, there must be something causing that extra space. Sswonk (talk) 03:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I read the article on Georgian Dublin. Incredible, brilliant (if slightly terrifying) story, and I think good for the first part. But, at the end, it seems like a brochure for those who don't, let's say, share your Point of View... needs a little work in that regard. "Fears", the "war is not won". WTF. The problem is, the right replacement for the Georgian structures. It would bring about safer and better electrical, efficient infrastructure, less rats. As for the subject of writing, and renewal, uh, well there's this cheery side to the coin: "Today, the West End is an up and coming, thriving neighborhood,... " Someone's opinion. Thoughts appreciated, and never let anyone tell you what to do :). Sswonk (talk) 03:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

When everyone is up front and they're not playing tricks
When you don't have no freeloaders out to get their kicks
When it's nobody's business the way that you wanna live
I just have to remember there'll be days like this
I'm enjoying that sax solo, a nice peaceful respite to start the day. Sarah, that was quite a day you had on Monday. There's a confidence and serenity in the way you reacted here. Words are difficult at this point, but I am trying to express that it relates somewhat to a few of the things we have discussed or touched on recently. I mean the male/female ratio on wiki, and then the issues of censorship and what we should be talking about on talk pages. In my mind's eye it was you with your husband, you standing above looking out with concern while he dove into the bog hole, saving your camera. Then you both get back to find a missing Qashqai. Me, here three thousand miles away, I got a little excited and turned around by the images. I would email you about it, but I think it is relevant to express it publicly. A few days ago, I turned analytical and distant and removed an out-of-place comment you left on an article talk page, and O'dea's little aside there. Then O'dea and I sort of got into the same sort of idiotic talk page warfare. I was misunderstood, O'dea wildly speculating about my motives made it worse. O'dea, if you read this it isn't what you think, I made some judgement errors on the writing a little, but fundamentally I tell the truth. I still can't think of a way to explain all of that. Sarah, I do care for you and need you around in many ways, and your honesty about your day is entirely within reason. My own maleness and sort of "business trained" straight-lacedness would keep me from writing about it, I think. But I can offer this cathartic bit of commentary when you let it out such as you have. The talk page, this forum method we have of working this encyclopedia out is truly difficult and a huge impediment to friendship and understanding that might be available in real conversation. It creates monsters in each of our minds, all of us as we edit, I think. Like the monster right now, who sees what I am writing as hopeless timewasting nonsense. It is in me to want to not hit "save page", and cancel this thought. But you deserve to know, I really care about what happens with you and really wish that you thank who I think saved your camera. It is metaphorical. I would not ever want you to think people should "call me selfish and heartless" as you joked about yourself standing by while that muddy gallantry was happening. Humans are supposed to be empathetic and helpful. It defines us as a species. I would cite that, but I have to get coffee and go make money to survive. Basically, I am worried and proud. I find a lot of evil in what many of the leaders of this site find right about the Ayn Rand philosophies, I am not sure how much you are aware about that Sarah. The founder and several of his early core committee have that view, sadly so do many people in the world. Now is not the time nor place, but people such as yourself I find are more in tune with nature and how things really feel. The truth. I hope you understand and that today is less of a struggle for you than yesterday was. Sswonk (talk) 13:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Well..eh...thanks for that :) The car turned up in Firhouse, abandoned and unburnt. Not even damaged. The police think it was some guys took it to drive home. So, car, camera - all safe. They even left a €300 lens in the glove compartment untouched. Weird. But yesterday was more an experience than a struggle. Struggle is what you do with three kids and no job; or when you hear you have cancer. Or maybe when you encounter the Wikichimps! Sarah777 (talk) 20:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Good news. Happy for you. Got a stolen 'bike back once that I'd given up as 'spare parts for general distribution'. So, we can look forward to more lovely pics! RashersTierney (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Today, a struggle to keep awake. It was also very foggy on the drive home once I headed down out of those Medford hills and got close to the ocean and home. Now I can't sleep, though. It is wonderful things worked out well for you, now I am not worried. It makes better sense. Since you got the car back and protest my use of the word struggle, I consider you over the "experience" so I don't feel bad bluntly asking: will you now vow to avoid leaving the keys in the car Sarah? I gotta say, that was not the best plan whoever came up with it. I mean, there are obviously car thieves in them hills... Sincere about the talk page world, it is a bear to contend with. Some of me above was overwrought, another pitfall. We're all free of guilt or obligation to that type of expressed need or at least should be. Dumb. More carefully phrased, sharing thoughts with you on this page has made being here more meaningful (or less depressing), for me. Considering ways you (and I have heard it directed to me at times, too) get called uncivil, wikichimps fits; if you ever doubt, don't buy it. And, I echo Rashers on the pics to come, looking forward. Sswonk (talk) 05:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Oi!-I did not leave the keys in the car! Sarah777 (talk) 08:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Oi? I can't see your expression when I ask, again the talk page method caused a little friction? Well, I don't like frustrating you. I assumed one of you left the keys because you said there was no damage to the car. Thieves have to damage cars to steal them if they are locked, bypass the ignition switch with a screwdriver etc. Otherwise, they would steal a lot more cars if all they had to do was get in and drive. Still sucks, however it happened. How did the Garda explain no damage without keys? Sswonk (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Sarah, I think the extra space in your posts is caused by using Chrome and WikEd in combination. I have Chromium, the Mac nightly build basically the same as Chrome, and when I used it and posted or even previewed the above with the WikEd gadget turned on, I get the extra line feed. Turn it off, no extra line feed. Click this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#preftab-9 – at the bottom of the second section, see if you have "WikEd" checked. You probably do and are used to using it, so to stop the problem but keep WikEd, you need to start your comments without putting a return after the comment before yours when you start to reply. Then the space looks normal when you preview. Let me know if that works. Sswonk (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I will try that. As to how they got into it I have no idea....unless...it....wasn't...locked. That is what the police suggested; a suggestion which is utterly rejected. (There is no external keyhole - it opens by a remote fob thingy). As for how they started it I have no idea - there was no sign of any tampering with the ignition, nothing. Aliens maybe after all? Sarah777 (talk) 18:47, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Works! Sarah777 (talk) 18:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Fantastic, I thought it must be something like that causing the extra space. Re: the car, that would drive me nuts. All I can say is, with keyless entry and modern ignition, it seems very strange. Joyriders could not do it, I wouldn't think, more like professionals. And professionals wouldn't leave it in Firhouse. Gnome from Tallaght or whatever, something spooky. Sswonk (talk) 00:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Bored

For some reason, I can't get interested in editing anything and end up striking up conversations with you. I think I am just bored. Eventually I'll get back to work. Anyway, the {{Infobox place Ireland}} was marked for deletion, but it can't be deleted until all the articles that use it are changed to use {{Infobox settlement}}. I switched Athy several days ago. Have you ever had a similar dilemma in your experience here? It is just in limbo, let me know if you have any info. I posted a question to the technical folks about getting that topographical/political switchable map code done, and am waiting for more input. Sswonk (talk) 18:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

'Twould be nice if the "places in counties" template could be re-worked to separate townlands from villages. I think we have agreement but I can't do it. Sarah777 (talk) 18:39, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Each one is specific to the county. Here is Galway revised: {{County Galway}}. The issue for me is I don't know what townlands should be kept separated or left with the villages, it is esoteric and I don't know enough Irish geography. But, that is what you want, right? If so, I will give you an idea of how to make the sections, or you can give me a list of county templates whereby I can make empty sections for you to fill. Wouldn't want to do that unless you are actually online and will fix them quickly. Better, I think, to write up here how it is done. Give me an idea what you would like to do. Sswonk (talk) 19:33, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, 99% of the time the distinction between a village and a townland is clear enough. But between town and village? In Ireland in some parts a population of 500 means a town; in the commuter belts several thousand could still be called a village. Sarah777 (talk) 19:50, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

It may be clear enough to you, but I had trouble. I based Galway above on the lead paragraph of each place, if it said "is a townland" then that got moved. But some did not say exactly that. That difference you mention between "town" and "village" is similar to "city" and "town" here, with a twist. In Massachusetts, every inch of land is either a town or city, there are 351 total. Simplified, a city has a mayor and a council, while a town has a town meeting only. However, several towns became cities but stipulated that they continue to be called towns. Thus we have, officially, places designated in legal texts as "The city known as the Town of X". It looks to me like the default in Ireland is townland, unless a village, town or city crops up. New Jersey is more complicated than either Mass or Éire! Well, is that Galway template I link above right? Sswonk (talk) 20:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is. The stubs (they are hardly articles in most cases) usually state whether the place is townland or village. This I find to be generally reliable. Sarah777 (talk) 20:21, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

May 2011

Hello. I noticed that you attempted to file a deletion discussion (on the article Springhill, Dublin) but did not complete the process. Please note that, when listing an article for deletion, a discussion page needs to be made for other users to discuss whether to keep or delete the article. This is typically done by following the steps listed here. Note that if you are editing as an unregistered user, you cannot create a discussion page. Please consider registering an account or asking another user to help you complete the process at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion. Thank you. I removed the tag on the page and the listing from the AfD list. MrKIA11 (talk) 02:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Am I not a registered user?! Sarah777 (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, it's a generic template used with Twinkle, but I figured it wasn't a big deal. I was thinking about seeing if it can be changed. MrKIA11 (talk) 00:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Conscription Crisis

Hi Sarah. We havn't spoken in a while, but your recent edits to Conscription Crisis of 1918 caused me some concern. Firstly, describing the O'Brien's AFIL or Dillon's IPP as "pliant" applies a POV term where it is not required. (Or frankly fair or accurate). The term "moderate" would seem much more appropriate than one which suggests blind complicity. Secondly, your removal of the Craig quote left absolutely no explanation as to why the crisis changed inter-community perceptions. (You left "The conscription crisis was a watershed in relations" without any explanantion as to why or how). Happy to discuss suggested improvements, but replacing neutral terms with POV ones, and removing chunks in a manner which leaves threads hanging probably isn't ideal. Guliolopez (talk) 12:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

FYI, given that your issue with the Craig quote seems to have related to "undue weight" concerns, I have moved and summarised it significantly. I have also had another look to see if the "more moderate parties" text should be reworded. However "moderate" probably remains the most appropriate term. (Using "pliant" or similar in relation to the AIPL or IPP is simply not representative - in particular in the context of the article subject itself, where it's clear that the parties and members were anything BUT pliant)! Guliolopez (talk) 13:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd agree "pliant" is pov. But so is "moderate". Hosni Mubarak, a brutal dictator, was routinely described as "moderate" in the Western media (I include Wiki in this - and could give hundreds of other examples). It has become a pov-laden weasel word. Sarah777 (talk) 21:53, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

AFD nomination of Debs and grads

Hello, you recently added a deletion discussion to another deletion discussion. They need to be added to the current day's log (I have done this for you and fixed the discussion page which was missing some of the necessary markup). --Beloved Freak 20:40, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Freak

I'm struggling with the Afd system. Many thanks for your help. Sarah777 (talk) 20:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

It's no problem. I can't really see how you did it, or I'd try to advise you! --Beloved Freak 20:48, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not even sure myself how I did it! Sarah777 (talk) 20:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Ballymagovern, Ballymagauran

I'm leaving this to the experts and heading for dreamland, done for the night. Ballymagovern and Ballymagauran are the same place, for example OSI mapviewer and Google Maps. Yet, there are two articles, one the Ballymagovern stub and the other for Ballymagauran townland and village which is where it should go, yes? You decide, and then please do whatever you would do like get BHG or someone to do the move and history merge to keep things proper. Have fun, and thanks – Sswonk (talk) 06:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I think I've solved that one solo! Sometimes simple is best:) Sarah777 (talk) 07:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

No arguments from me! ;) Drifting off, hi anyway. This has some meaning, not sure what, I think you'll laugh out loud. Thanks, be around later. Sswonk (talk) 07:55, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Never bored! County Templates

Template:County Clare Good stuff - get the structure right and the towns, villages and townlands will sort themselves out. Sarah777 (talk) 21:58, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm waiting for further input from Exiledone to go on with User:Eddylandzaat/Clare. Eddylandzaat (talk) 03:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Tags with rags

Absolutely priceless. That should be the category title, and folks who toss them on to talk pages can get a userbox for their page, like

I tag with rags!

On the picture of the day above (link for when it's gone), the caption says: "Hands off! Touch not the Lord's gift". My idea is to add that to the rag tags. Certainly putting that text next to a flag will be an improvement almost more than the encyclopedia can bear! Sswonk (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)