- 2017 Lower Manhattan attack (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)
Page was moved before consensus was reached --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:39, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn per nom. I would also suggest moving the page back. It was moved from 2017 West Side Highway attack by Sullay and then Fuzheado without consensus. epicgenius (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: to any closing administrators: there are several "endorse" comments below treating this as if it were the RM itself, rather than a review of whether the move's premature close (conducted by me) or the moves by Sullay and Fuzheado were valid. A few of the "overturn" comments are also disagreeing with the current title. Just my observation that this discussion is being treated as a commentary on the page title itself, rather than a !vote about whether the closure was valid without consensus. epicgenius (talk) 01:31, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn "New York City" is a more natural, common name than "Lower Manhattan", and I am not seeing or hearing media using "Lower Manhattan", which is a local use term.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:40, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @E.M.Gregory: The title was "2017 West Side Highway attack" when the RM was opened. "2017 New York City attack" was the title when the RM closed. Whether it should be overturned to the West Side Highway or NYC title is disputable, but I'm just putting this as a comment. epicgenius (talk) 22:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- "2017 West Side Highway attack" is a terrible title, too many cities have West Sides.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- There's only one West Side Highway but that's not the point. My point is that the title would be overturned to "2017 West Side Highway attack", even though I agree it is too specific. epicgenius (talk) 13:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- West Side Highway (disambiguation), there are actually.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Touche. It's still the primary topic though. epicgenius (talk) 18:40, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:The "2017 New York attack" is more natural, when the event is current, but only then. Subsequently, IMO, the article title should be more specific, and thus refer to the more specific location of the attack. There's also the May 2017 car crash. -Mardus /talk 00:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- "New York" is too general, so a better natural title is "New York City" (as that's where the article on the city is). epicgenius (talk) 13:43, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. The discussion was messy, but consensus was not leaning towards this title. Many people wanted to sidestep the issue of (over)specifying the location and adding something like "vehicle ramming attack" to the end of the title. Abductive (reasoning) 02:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. This was a unilateral move, albeit good faith, without consensus on a major event. WWGB (talk) 02:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Settle down. This is a current event. Current sources are all primary. The real world community is still settling down as to what to call it. For the moment, for a week at least, the current title will do. Per WP:TITLECHANGES, fiddling the title excessively, especially during this period of developing reliable sources, is a bad idea. There is no ideal title at this time, in a week reviewing sources will override everything. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse/settle down. Keep at this title for 1 week until more high-quality sources settle on a name. Neutralitytalk 03:18, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn It was improper to prematurely close the RM merely because someone had already moved the article before consensus was reached. It should have been left open, the page should have been moved back, and the page could have been move protected if the warring continued. It's demoralizing to those involved in the RM if someone unilaterally moves pages mid-discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 08:00, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Can someone agree an outcome sooner rather than later? I don't think having that big tag at the top of a ITN story is the best thing to be showcasing to our readers. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 08:18, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:44, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply - @Lugnuts:, @SmokeyJoe:, the {{move review}} tag says "While the discussion is in progress, this page may be edited, but do not blank or redirect this page, or remove this notice from the page". --Jax 0677 (talk) 13:44, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Use common sense. The wording was stolen straight from the DRV template and is probably unnecessary for MRVs because it is an editor issue not a reader issue (deletion or lack thereof arguably is a reader issue though). In any case, even if there was agreement that articles under MRV should display this template, exceptions to any rule always apply when there is a benefit to Wikipedia and clearly in this case – with such a high-traffic and dynamic article – having that tag at the top of the page for a week is a detriment to our readers. Jenks24 (talk) 13:55, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - In the long term, I support titles such as "2017 New York City truck attack" or "October 2017 New York City attack". Some people in different parts of the world will better recognize "New York City" than they will "Manhattan" or a neighborhood within. I am OK with overturning and relisting. Should the move review tag not be on the top of the page? --Jax 0677 (talk) 12:47, 2 November 2017 (UTC) A typo. ficed. thanks.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:39, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn perm norm. Bobherry Talk Edits 13:35, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse the move, as "New York City" is too general and problematic. News outlets are only of partial guidance on this, as they write headlines for today whereas we write for the historical record. NB: This move and !vote was a confusing set of circumstances – the hatnote and the description of the proposed move don't even match. The beige colored box says Lower Manhattan -> New York City, and the green box says West Side Highway -> New York City. The problem with "New York City" is that the May 2017 Times Square vehicle attack is also in "New York City." And honestly, for posterity, no one is going to look up things by month – people don't process May 2017 vs October 2017. They will think Times Square or Lower Manhattan. Pinging other folks in the Requested move who may not know about this move review -@RegentsPark, Gaia Octavia Agrippa, Werldwayd, Lihaas, Jade Phoenix Pence, Paris1127, Jr xander, Knowledgekid87, JBergsma1, Jim Michael, and Crumpled Fire: -- Fuzheado | Talk 14:55, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse per Fuzheado's arguments.JBergsma1 (talk) 15:03, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse: New York is too broad. This isn't the only attack to have taken place in the city this year so its needs disambiguating. Manhattan is too broad as Times Square is also in Manhattan (2017 Times Square car crash) so Lower Manhattan is best; "West Side Highway" was much too specific. This would follow the practice that has been used for two London attacks this year: 2017 Westminster attack and June 2017 London Bridge attack (London Bridge is the area not just the name of a bridge). Referring to Template:Islamic terrorism in Europe (2014–present), article about truck attack are just "attack" (eg 2017 Stockholm attack and 2016 Berlin attack), so using "truck attack" would be going against the established norm. Its clear from its current title what is is referring to so I think that the best wording, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 15:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - I don't see this as an issue, there is a reason why Manhattan is the primary disambiguation page. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:24, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse: For now 2017 Lower Manhattan attack seems to be the most plausible workable title. werldwayd (talk) 17:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. We'll probably get a chance to revisit this again in a few weeks but this seems fine for now. --regentspark (comment) 18:51, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn: Just looked through discussion, and there was definitely no consensus for this move. I agree there will probably be a better name for this article soon, but I don't think the arguments to switch to a name that isn't used by any RS that I can find serves our readers. 207.222.59.50 (talk) 18:58, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on Lower Manhattan. This is an odd term not used much about this attack, except on Wikipedia. Don't recommend its use. Vanguard10 (talk) 02:31, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @Vanguard10: Point of information - New York Times, CNN, NY Daily News and Time magazine saw fit to use "Lower Manhattan" in headlines. -- Fuzheado | Talk 12:50, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- NY Times and NY Daily News are local papers, so you would expect them to be more specific about the location, since their readership is already NYC based. As for CNN and Time, they are not using Lower Manhattan as a way of identifying the attack, but rather commenting on the link for that area between this attack and the 9/11 attacks. I personally agree with Vanguard that "Lower Manhattan" is an unusual title for this event when viewed globally, most are referring to it as the New York City attack. It's still worth keeping the current title until things settle down though. — Amakuru (talk) 14:44, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Sort-of endorse and allow new RM. This is a high-profile breaking-news article, and the previous title 2017 West Side Highway attack was quite inappropriate, so a quick rename was called for, thus I commend the mover for the bold, IAR action. I don't see a point reverting the title to the old one, and 2017 Lower Manhattan attack is a reasonable working title. When the dust settles, (which is already happening), start a new RM with carefully selected choices (in my opinion, it ought to be called a "truck attack" for better recognizability, but I'll save the argument for the RM). No such user (talk)
- Endorse but open a new RM quite soon per No such user. I think common sense has prevailed here. The old title (West Side Highway) was a poor one, and the new one active now is clearly better. I think we often see this with new topics that are still fresh in the news - the title moves around quite a lot in the first few weeks, and I don't think it's reasonable for us to follow our usual full WP:RM process in this case. In particular, we shouldn't expect the article to stay at a non-ideal title for a full seven days, just because there's an RM active and seven days is the usual running time. The page was boldly moved during the life of the RM, and for the above reasons I won't trout Sullay for that, although I do think editors should check for active RMs and consider closing them early per WP:IAR in such a case, to avoid this kind of confusion. I also wouldn't trout user Epicgenius for procedurally closing rather than reopening them RM, for the same reasons. They made the right call. As others have noted, I don't think the current title is ideal, but the best thing is to leave it here for a few days or a week or two, and then construct a careful RM with sources, to take it to what will hopefully then be a long term title. Personally I would like to see the word "New York" in that title, and probably "truck" as well, since those are the two terms that make it most recognizbale now, but we'll assess that when we get to the new RM. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 10:52, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I have listed this discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure#Wikipedia:Move_review.2FLog.2F2017_November.232017_Lower_Manhattan_attack, which I can not close due to WP:INVOLVED. --Jax 0677 (talk) 20:50, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- It is time to close this and to allow a fresh RM. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:03, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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