Humanities desk
< April 2	<< Mar \| April \| May >>	April 4 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

April 3

Ancient Egyptians

I have read some articles, that Hollywood don't cast black actors in movies about ancient Egypt. Those who built pyramids, were they Arabs or Black people? --Marvellous Spider-Man 02:22, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The "classic" Egyptians, which are those you normally think of, would be what you are calling Arabs, although that ethnic group wasn't defined yet. They were briefly conquered by the Kingdom of Kush, which had black citizens. This led to the Twenty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt. StuRat (talk) 02:49, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has an article on DNA history of Egypt and Archaeogenetics of the Near East. Modern ethnic concepts like "Arabs" don't make sense when discussing ancient Egypt. Ethnicity is closely tied to place and time, and when looking at Ancient Egypt, modern ethnic classifications don't make any sense. --Jayron 32 02:54, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Marvellous_Spider-Man -- there wasn't much significant Arab presence in Egypt until around 640 A.D. The Nubians of the south of modern Egypt (and similar peoples of ancient times) could fairly be called "black", but it's much more doubtful for the main population of central and northern Egypt, unless you anachronistically apply the American One-drop rule to historical and cultural contexts where it was quite irrelevant. Unfortunately, a few people seem to be obsessed with things such as trying to find evidence that Cleopatra was "black" (which tends toward the absurd, considering that her known ancestors were mostly Macedonians/Greeks). Our main article is Ancient Egyptian race controversy. Of course, Hollywood has often not been inhibited from casting "heroic" roles with white actors, regardless of plausibility -- most notoriously with the 1956 film "The Conqueror", a bad movie notable for having John Wayne play Genghis Khan (and for exposing its cast and crew to nuclear fall-out). AnonMoos (talk) 05:57, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We can not really assume that the Egyptian population was homogeneous. At various points, the population included Nubians, Asiatics (including the Hyksos), Libu, Persian people, Greeks in Egypt, Romans, and Jews in Egypt. And do not forget the mixed populations of the Hellenistic period, or that ancient Egypt used to be a part of various empires with diverse populations. Dimadick (talk) 08:59, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

At the time of ancient Egypt, the majority view of dominant civilizations was "We are the master/chosen race, and all others are inferior." This led to them not mixing much, although enslaving other ethnic groups was common. StuRat (talk) 19:36, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]}. --Jayron 32 20:46, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

StuRat -- there was a lot of ethnocentrism and xenophobia in ancient times, but most people didn't commonly think in terms of "races" as we would consider them today (most people in those times rarely saw a person from another different major race). AnonMoos (talk) 23:51, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Egyptians being an exception, since Nubians lived quite close to them, and they did interact, whether through trade or war, depending on the period. Racial distinctions are also visible in their art. StuRat (talk) 01:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We have a bit of a stubby section at Racism#History, which goes in line with what I faintly recalled from college - there no evidence that most ancient peoples exercised what we would now recognize as racism. The ancient Greek version was based on culture rather than color or other appearance. Ancient writers were obviously aware that different groups of people looked different, but that was not the basis of their discrimination. In ancient Rome you could face discrimination based on which city you were from, even if you spoke the same language and had the same appearance as other citizens. It's not a "we are the master race" as we'd recognize it today. And it was highly fungible as well, with the standards of who could be Roman constantly changing for political reasons [1]. I don't know where you get this idea that people didn't mix much back then. As our articles mention, ancient DNA recovered from Egypt shows a lot of "mixing", as does analysis of most ancient DNA from everywhere. Invaders taking local wives was often an integral part of the cultural conversion process in ancient societies, and masters impregnating their slaves was also common. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a bit of ancient Egyptian art showing black slaves (left side): [2]. StuRat (talk) 05:18, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And here, for anyone who wants actual reliable sources, is the UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology article on Ethnicity. One of its major conclusions is: don't draw conclusions from the art alone because it's too stereotyped to represent how complex things actually were.

Regarding the original question, here is what Frank Yurco, an Egyptologist, said about ancient Egyptians' appearance in Biblical Archaeology Review magazine in 1989. A. Parrot (talk) 07:17, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

china and political dissent

Hi, when I was in Beijing last year, around Tiananmen square, someone walked up to where people were queueing, and threw a bunch of leaflets around. The leaflets were basically small strips of paper, likely just torn off an A4 sheet, each one being about 7-10 lines of typed Chinese text. Of course, he was detained by security, but, unsurprisingly, they also wouldn't let me keep the leaflets. Does anyone know what sort of things such a person might have been protesting about? I know you cannot answer the exact question, what was he doing - of course not that. But I'm wondering, if someone is distributing leaflets, enough to get himself into trouble, has anyone else seen this sort of thing (or read about it), and does anyone know any examples of the sorts of things people protest about (especially as one-off pamphleteers) on the streets? Normally in China, someone can just blog anonymously (or at least less visibly) on the internet, so I'm curious about what prompts someone to actually throw things around. It seemed like he wanted to get in some trouble, rather than just quietly inform people. Thanks, IBE (talk) 02:26, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There's the lack of movement towards democracy, and, in Hong Kong, movement away from democracy when China decided it would choose which candidates may run. There's government corruption. There tends to be mistreatment of the poor, say if somebody rich wants their land. Then the lack of human rights, like being detained for such things, is itself a good reason to protest. Pollution (particularly air pollution in major cities) is also becoming a major problem in China, with government corruption and lack of democracy exasperating the problem. The Muslim minority in Western China also complains of oppression, as do the Tibetans, and in particular the Buddhists from there. StuRat (talk) 02:44, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It would seem fairly unlikely a Hong Kong resident is going to go to Tiananmen square throw pieces of paper at random people getting very little public attention. In Hong Kong at least they have a fair degree of protection hence why most of the 2014 Hong Kong protests protestors/those involved in the Umbrella Movement are still relatively and have received minor sentences at most. I mean heck the controversial 2 year sentence of police officers for beating a protestor [3] is AFAIK longer than any sentence a 2014 protest participant has received. Hence also why there was a fair degree of controversy over the Causeway Bay Books disappearances and the suggestion the people were forcefully taken to China. This isn't to suggest a protestor won't want to go to China, I mean it was attempted Alex Chow#Umbrella movement but blocked by China. But the plan there seems to have been something more than throwing random leaflets at people. I guess they could be attempting what PalaceGuard008 mentioned below, but from all I've read and heard before, that's the sort of thing people in rural or smaller areas may feel they need to do, not so much something someone from Hong Kong is going to try.

As for movement away from democracy, it's unclear what you mean. The proposal to implement universal suffrage but with China approving the candidates was never actually implemented [4]. The proposal was clearly not democratic, but it seems difficult to call it a move away from democracy when the current system which is a legacy of the Sino-British Joint Declaration. At worse it seems to be a lateral move, but arguably such a system would have been more democratic than the current one. Although concern over it's implementation is also understandable, it may very well have been bad enough that it was better not to change even if it is more democractic.

(It's true that it's not really clear how much blame should be attached to the British government for the lack of a democratic development since a lot of what they did e.g. 1994 Hong Kong electoral reform seem too little too late, it also seems clear there was strong pressure from China to limit Democratic development in Hong Kong including the ultimate threat of a forceful takeover. This is all beside the point anyway.)

Nil Einne (talk) 10:27, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See Protest and dissent in China for some overview. --Jayron 32 02:45, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Most people who are sufficiently motivated to do something like this in the centre of Beijing are likely to be motivated by personal grievances. They may well be trying to get the attention of the authorities, because they think a chance to air their grievances to central authorities will help. For example, their grievance might be against the local village chief, and they have not succeeded in getting the Petition Office to take their case.

Dissidents agitating for broader political reform tend to use in-person meetings, the internet and out-of-jurisdiction publication to press their case.

If you are interested in a dramatised (and sanitised) perspective on the strange interaction between law, politics and persistent petitioners in China, the 2016 film I Am Not Madame Bovary is very good. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:00, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all, but especially for this answer. More info also welcome, IBE (talk) 13:43, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is my £5 note worth more?

I have just received a £5 note with the serial number AK15 from my bank. Does anyone know whether this note is worth more than £5? Thank you --89.246.112.10 (talk) 18:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is that an unusually low serial number? There are no leading zeroes on pound serial numbers? Find a banknote collector. If anyone'd give you more than £5 for it it'd be him. Try to find EU27. Especially on the £50, 2016 series or 2019.Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:31, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This has been in the news lately. See [5], [6], [7]. Note that it seems collectors are only really interested in those starting with AA. A quick look at eBay shows some people are trying to sell notes in the AK series for massive markups, but you'll need to look more closely to see if anyone is actually buying them. I don't see any impressive bids. 174.88.10.107 (talk) 19:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The real demand was for the AA notes - with the lowest possible numbers. Some AA01 notes did go for thousands of pounds. There was a mention of AK47 notes being in demand, because of the reference to the firearms, but I doubt any collector will want your AK15 - especially if it has been folded at all. Collectrors want perfect mint notes, just as they come from the printers. Wymspen (talk) 21:02, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Link to the story [8]. Check your car's registration plate - it might be worth more than the car. 86.147.208.39 (talk) 10:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

USPS central hub

Fedex has Memphis International Airport as their US central hub. UPS has Louisville International Airport as their US central hub. But what about USPS? I can't find anything about it in the USPS article. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if they have one, but they do have Sectional center facility's. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:46, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Network Distribution Center seems more centralized, but there doesn't seem to be "a" singular processing hub. Matt Deres (talk) 02:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We've had this question before: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 March 23#USPS Super Hub. Answer is that USPS now outsources air delivery, but they used to have their hub at Indianapolis International Airport (now a secondary FedEx hub). Smurrayinchester 07:28, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

fly between Japan and US

Other than US airlines and Japanese airlines, are there any other passenger airlines that fly between Japan and US? ECS LIVA Z (talk) 23:46, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I googled the subject, and this came up.[9] I expect they might have the reverse situation available too. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:50, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. China Eastern Airlines has a flight from Shanghai to New York that has a stopover in Tokyo, so that works. I thought maybe Air Canada did a similar trick, but I haven't found an example yet. Matt Deres (talk) 02:59, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]