Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics/Archive 14

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E9 (Lie algebra)

My knowledge of Lie algebras is a single course, but this potentially confusing notation was never mentioned. Has anyone else heard of this? Septentrionalis 18:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard of this notation. I note that my references list the notation as E8(1). The subscript here is, as always, the rank. -lethe talk + 18:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I have extensively revised and cleaned up Divisibility rule, so please take a look and help to improve it more. As I'm not fully experienced at all the editing tools, I'm sure the formatting and adherence to guidelines and standards could be improved.

I'd like to create a number of other pages related to mental math, so I'd like to get feedback on this one, the first I've heavily edited. (The current mental arithmetic has only the most basic, simple of techniques.

Walt 01:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Category:Billion and cousins up for deletion

See Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Thousand. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 18:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Poincaré conjecture

Some Chinese news sources have picked up a story about a recent journal article by Cao and Zhu, experts on the Ricci flow, who have written what they (and the journal editors) claim is a "complete" proof of the geometrization conjecture, by giving more details of Perelman's work. Slashdot has also picked up on this. As a consequence, there has been several editors who have insisted on placing mention of Cao and Zhu's paper in the lead section. I have disagreed (see talk page discussion and also some of my edit summaries for extensive reasons). Please continue discussion there. I would also appreciate if people could pop in and check that things don't get out of control. Thanks. --C S (Talk) 02:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

American Institute of Mathematics

The article on American Institute of Mathematics has been nominated for deletion by someone. R.e.b. 13:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

PlanetMath Exchange project milestone

The PlanetMath Exchange project has today reached a new milestone, with 40% of all PlanetMath articles reviewed.

For those of you who have not been following the project, I thought I would take this opportunity to report on the status of the project, and the progress which has been made to date. The purpose of the project is to review all PlanetMath (PM) articles (which are licensed under GFDL) and to incorporate any appropriate PM content not adequately covered on Wikipedia (WP).

There are over 4800 PM articles listed, of which over 1900 of which have been reviewed so far. Of the reviewed articles, 143 PM articles have been copied to WP, creating entirely new WP articles, and 121 have been merged into already existing WP articles. Additionally, a further 75 PM articles have been identified as needing to be copied, and 349 needing to be merged.

The project maintains 49 lists of PM articles grouped by topic (e.g. 11 Number theory, 26 Real functions, 54 General topology). The entire list of lists is compiled into a "Article lists" table, and statistics are maintained for each topic's list.

19 editors have identified themselves as participants, and 26 have reviewed at least one PM article (see Editor contributions).

Oleg Alexandrov, has provided several excellent tools to facilitate the project. He and Mathbot created the original 49 lists (first created in Feb 2005, and updated with new PM articles in March 2006). They also perform daily updates of statistics in the "Article lists", and "Editor contributions" tables. In addition, Oleg has created a convenient tool to assist in converting a PM article to wiki markup.

I heartily encourage everyone to join the fun.

Paul August 02:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Direct logic up for deletion

See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Direct_logic -Dan 15:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Another misguided nomination for deletion

Please vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American Institute of Mathematics. Michael Hardy 23:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, R.e.b. told us already. -lethe talk + 00:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I closed that AfD. -lethe talk + 00:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Functional analyst needed

Hi, I left a question regarding the correct statement of the Ryll-Nardzewski fixed point theorem at Talk:Ryll-Nardzewski fixed point theorem. Cheers, AxelBoldt 04:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

As stated it's wrong. The semigroup is required to satisfy another property, that it be "distal". Also I don't think it can be used to prove existence of Haar measure on general locally compact groups, although I think for compact groups yes. I think this is in Rudin's functional analysis book for instance. Also see Frederic Greanleaf's little book (now horribly outdated) on "Amenable Groups".--CSTAR 12:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite Poincaré_conjecture?

I invite interested parties to make comments at Talk:Poincaré_conjecture#Peer_review. --C S (Talk) 12:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

An anon recently redirected the wikilink in Chaos Theory from the first to the second. Is this legitimite? Are these the same person? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, same person. Correct spelling is Jacques [1]. I have changed the Jaques page to a redirect and fixed the link in the single remaining article that used the wrong spelling. Gandalf61 15:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Zipper theorem

I wanted to {{prod}} this article. But to be sure I thought I'd check. Is this article nonsense or not? I couldn't google the name, but that doesn't always mean anything. Garion96 (talk) 00:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The theorem and its proof in the article are correct. The theorem was not known to me under this or any other name. --LambiamTalk 00:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, so I won't {{prod}} it. Anyone here wants to clean that article up? Cause the way it looks now, it's not understandable for the non mathematician reader. Like me. :) Garion96 (talk) 12:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, perhaps I should have looked at at the article again. It already is cleaned up. Thanks. Garion96 (talk) 12:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I think it's a neologism. I think it should be deleted without some evidence of that name having widespread currency. Dmharvey 12:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I've heard it referred to in that way ("zipper theorem"); dunno if that's enough evidence for you. I also can't think offhand of a place I've seen it in print, though. I could ask around. Lunch 18:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm skeptical that the name is very common. I can't imagine the theorem would even have a name amongst mathematicians. So I think the term would only be used in certain kinds of introductory course work. Google gives no results (off Wikipedia), so nobody that has mentioned it, for example, in a course webpage. The only place I can think the term may exist is in some textbooks somewhere. Even in that eventuality, I don't know if it's worth having an article based on that amount of usage. I guess it does no harm, but I'm also hard-pressed to imagine a situation where we would want to link to it. --C S (Talk) 19:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge it into Limit of a sequence#Properties? —Blotwell 17:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I've asked a few people around, and none other than me have heard this result referred to as the zipper theorem. I guess it's not as popular a term as I thought. Maybe zipper lemma instead?  ;) Maybe it'd qualify for a list of some sort of elementary properties of limits; if not, maybe stick it in the article on limits. BTW, this theorem is true for any metric space, but is it true for non-Hausdorff spaces? How much can the requirements of the theorem be relaxed? Lunch 21:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The exact same proof, translating epsilons into open sets, proves it in every topological space. This result has about the same significance as, say, the linearity of differentiation, and should probably go in a list of limits like the list of derivatives. Ryan Reich 22:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure, a list of limits article would be a good idea. And I guess you can just replace balls with neighborhoods; I think I was confusing myself with the non-uniqueness of limits in non-Hausdorff spaces. Lunch 23:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I was curt with that reply. I'll be happy to put together a basic list of limits. Actually, following the model of the list of derivatives, there isn't any need to touch zipper theorem, just link to it from the list. Unless we really don't like it for some reason. Ryan Reich 00:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
looks good! Lunch 17:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

integrable systems

Over at Talk:Constant of motion, I've been reduced to babling and waving my hands to the effect that a "system of differential equations with constants of motion == integrable system == system with symmetries" and conversely, "non-integrable system == system with no constants of motion". However, it occurs to me that I know of no grand theorems making this claim. Are there any? Is this in fact a collection of small results in narrow fields that have accreted into a grand truth? Guidance? How can one make this clear at a college-math level? It doesn't help that the article integrable system is somewhat foreboding in its current form. linas 01:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm being lame? Maybe its just the Frobenius theorem coupled to the idea that the submanifold has a natural symmetry, ergo by Noether's theorem has constants of motion? I've never had formal skoolin in this matter. linas 03:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I think I'm grasping for Liouville's theorem (Hamiltonian). I swear this stuff goes in one ear and out the other. I'm babbling even now. linas 03:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

You make a good point about the current article being somewhat forbidding. I would go a step further. I don't think integrable system should redirect to integrability conditions. An integrable system usually (?) refers to a Hamiltonian system with a full set of Poisson-commuting flows. Naturally, integrability conditions do play a role, but there is more structure a priori in an integrable system. For the point about conserved quantities for an integrable system, since the Hamiltonian flows commute, there should be loads of conserved quantities. (As you ask, is there a general theorem here? Does Noether apply? etc). Hence a system without "enough" conserved quantities will be non-integrable. I'm not so sure about the converse. Silly rabbit 13:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. What I've been reading gives the name completely integrable system to the case of a full set of commuting Poisson brackets. Your "not being sure about the converse" would imply that there are non-integrable systems with a "full set" of conserved quantities. That certainly sets my mind wandering in wild directions. linas 23:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Nice start on integrable systems. It certainly has helped me organize some of my own wild wanderings. I'm clearly not an expert, but it seems to be tricky to give a good definition of an integrable system. (Ok, so first off, yes I meant what you call completely integrable: which is unarguably a better term ;) In particular, there are issues of local versus global integrability. What does global integrability mean anyway? Do the all the level submanifolds have to be closed? Do the constants have to be found explicitly, or can they just be given in some implicit sense? Can a locally completely integrable system have degenerate Poisson brackets on some small dimensional locus, and still have functionally independent integrals? (Here is the "lack of converse" possibility -- if it exists to begin with.) Silly rabbit 23:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I'd say a Lie group is the prototype for something that is "globally integrable". I don't know of any systems that are "provably integrable" (constants of motion implicitly given), but whose solution is unknown (no explicit form). I suspect one can find level manifolds that are not closed, certainly things like the horocycle flow ( aka Anosov flow on tangent space of SL(2,C)) has the flavour of being non-compact but this is an off-the-cuff remark. I believe that the whole area of sub-Riemannian geometry is permeated with integrable systems that have cuts and isolated singularities and the like. Next, chaotic systems have "regimes" of regular and chaotic motion that's interspersed; the KAM torus being the famous example, although the easy-to-understand variants are in difference equations. Then there's all this stuff about homoclinic orbits, and stuff like Axiom A, which I dimly understand. Or things I dont:Smale's spectral decomposition theorem. I'm sort of learning this stuff as I go along.linas 04:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Mathematicians for Wikipedia:Version 0.5 Nominations

On Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics/Wikipedia 1.0 there is a request for the most notable mathematicians whos biographies could be included in Wikipedia:Version 0.5 Nominations. Suggestions for celebratity mathematicians welcome. Possible also assesments of the quality of their article also welcome. --Salix alba (talk) 07:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to great work by Lethe we now have a fairly comprehensive list of the the giants for mathematics on Mathematics/Wikipedia 1.0. A new template Template:maths rating has also been created together with a set of categories listing the quality and importance of mathematics articles. Mathbot will included these articles in Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Mathematics articles by quality on a daily basis. Help is now needed in identifying the important maths articles and assigning then a grade (Feature Article/A/Good Article/B/Start/Stub), which can be done by including the template on the talk page. There are a few biographies which may be suitable for listing as good articles and several other on some key figures which are barely more than stubs and could do with expansion.
I'm also thinking that the list of mathematicians could make a good article in its own right, either as a section in Mathematicians or its own article, possible Influential mathematicians. --Salix alba (talk) 09:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
We already have list of mathematicians, but I guess you are thinking of a selective subset. I don't know if it is worth its own article. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 15:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I was thinking of a more selective list, probably anotated as well, briefly describing their main acheivments. It could be an interesting way to tell the history of mathematics through the people involved and the new areas of study they started. This sort of presentation, is quite popular in science books aimed at the general reader and might appeal to certain wikipedia readers. --Salix alba (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well If you want a selective list one place to start would be Bell's Men of Mathematics. Paul August 20:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Might I also suggest the obvious web site, MacTutor? --KSmrqT 04:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Probability/Measure theory glossary?

Does WP have a glossary that translates the language of probability theory to measure theory? I've got a complaint on my talk page that I'm trying to decipher; I don't understand Score (statistics) and Fisher information, although I suspect I would, if they were restated in terms of measure theory. The root of this interest is the rather astounding edit here, which is so remarkable, I abstract it here:

Fisher information is a powerful new method for deriving laws governing many aspects of nature and human society. B. Roy Frieden sets out in detail how Fisher information can ground a great deal of contemporary physical theory, including Newtonian mechanics, virial theorem, statistical mechanics, thermodynamics, Maxwell's equations, Lorentz transformation, general relativity, EPR experiment, Schrodinger equation, Klein-Gordon equation, Dirac equation, Rarita-Schwinger equation, and the fundamental physical constants. Frieden and coauthors have also used EPI to derive some established principles and new laws of biology, the biophysics of cancer growth, chemistry, and economics.

Surely, the ommission of M-theory and intelligent design is just an oversight? linas 00:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:B._Roy_Frieden for a little bit of discussion and some links to external reviews of Frieden's work. He has some interesting ideas but, it seems, not quite the revolution he makes out for himself. The IP address of the edits is assigned to [http:/csc.canterbury.ac.nz Christchurch College of Education] in New Zealand. Maybe Frieden's been travelling? Lunch 03:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

user mathisreallycool

A new user mathisreallycool (talk · contribs) has made several edits which to my mind betray a fundamental lack of knowledge in certain mathematical topics. I have reverted several additions by this user, and I want to vet some other things by the user. For example, the article Konfisakhar space seems unobjectionable, it's referenced. However I've never heard of this idea, it's not in any of my texts, nor is it in my EDM2, and frankly, I find the idea of a fractal vector space hard to believe. Can someone (maybe with access to the book by Schaeffer) verify this concept? Otherwise, I shall want to AfD is. And maybe also this definition of semidirect products for monoids? -lethe talk + 07:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

A web search for Igor Konfisakhar suggests the work of a creative student, violating WP:NOR. The citation of the Schaeffer book is also not quite correct; the second edition (ISBN 978-0-387-98726-2) has two authors. I have no personal knowledge of the topic or the book, but I share your reservations.
PS: I've begun using 13-digit ISBNs, since the official transition is not far off. On online converter is available. --KSmrqT 10:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I've listed Konfisakhar space for deletion. "Professor Igor Konfisakhar" appears to be an undergrad, notable only for being a 3rd place winner in a Putnam prize contest, which is better 'n me but not good enough for this. linas 03:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I know Igor Konfisakhar personally (or did), and can confirm that he is (at present) an undergraduate. Tesseran 03:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The reference work listed is searchable online at Amazon (see [2]). I find no reference to "fractal" or "Konfisakhar". Paul August 04:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Problems at Propositional Calculus

(Copied from my talk page. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 07:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC))

JA: Hi, could you help sort out the continuing tangles at Propositional calculus? First there was that improper name change last month, and I let it go because the user who did it seemed fairly competent and added some good stuff, but now the word "logic" seems to be inviting anonymous users to take the article out of the mathematical logic designation and add any sort of half-baked exposition that they can cook up. I don't know my way around the procedures well enough to keep dealing with sort of stuff. Much appreciated, Jon Awbrey 05:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There had been some noise in the past about moving propositional calculus to propositional logic or classical propositional logic. The move to propositional logic was affected by Charles Stewart via WP:RM last month, then reverted by a history-destroying copy-paste by Jon Awbrey this week. I reverted the copy-paste (restoring the history), then reverted the proper move (preserving the history), so now we're back where we started. If the move is to happen, a case will have to be made again. -lethe talk + 07:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Use "iff", not "if", in definitions!

Some editors appear to believe that there is a convention which requires the use of "if" in definitions rather than "iff" (short for "if and only if"). A definition is a proposition which equates a new term to a compound expression composed of old terms. So using "if" is wrong. One should use "iff" or an equivalent, such as: "if and only if", "is", "is the same as", "means", "is equivalent to", "when and only when", etc.. JRSpriggs 08:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Though you are technically correct, I don't think it's such a problem to use just an "if" in a definition. It's tedious to always write "if and only if" (and the abbreviation is esoteric), and the full meaning can always be inferred. Of course to require "if" in definitions is certainly bad. -lethe talk + 08:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I am complaining because thrice recently someone has changed "iff" to "if" in a definition. JRSpriggs 10:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
If I saw that happen, I would probably revert. -lethe talk + 10:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, "if" is brief, commonly understood, and colloquial; "iff" is brief, not commonly understood, and precise. What to do? Personal, I dislike "iff", so I either write out "if and only if" or use a phrase like "exactly when". My feeling is that anyone who understands the meaning of "iff" and feels comfortable with it also has enough of that fabled "mathematical maturity" to not misinterpret a definition using "if". I am not aware of a WikiMath guideline, nor a Wikipedia guideline that speaks to this slightly delicate issue involving both accessibility and formal correctness.
A recurring challenge with a multinational pool of editors is melding one's own training and taste with that of others. I cringe whenever I see the word "ditto" in an article, as to me it screams of informality, not suitable for an encyclopedia. I'd love to see both "iff" and "ditto" banned, but I have no sense of how much agreement I would find for that view. --KSmrqT 11:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I would agree with abolishing "ditto" but not with abolishing "iff". Anyway, I agree with Ryan below. The precision afforded by the usage "iff" is useful for theorems, but not so much for definitions. -lethe talk + 11:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't follow any mathematical practice I've ever seen, so why should we insist on it simply because it's technically right? We don't make policy here, just record it. Besides, to counter your argument, "iff" is logically absurd in this context since the term to be defined has no prior meaning; whether or not it applies is determined by the text of the definition. In other words, "only if" is vacuous if the term is unique, and if not, it is erroneous. Someone reading an "iff" definition for the first time will wonder if they've missed some other discussion of the term, and anyone else will be annoyed because it departs from the usual style. I agree with lethe, though: any change of one to the other should be reverted. This is a personal preference. Ryan Reich 10:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
We are certainly allowed to make policy here. What we don't do is invent subject matter for our articles. So we can't invent terminologies, but we can certainly decide on conventions for our terminologies. -lethe talk + 11:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd argue more but apparently you agree with me. My objection to inventing policy in this sort of case is that the choices are not all equally acceptable; it's not like choosing an indentation style for C code, where many different styles all have their widespread adherents. I've simply never seen "iff" in a definition. Ryan Reich 11:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I can't quote chapter and verse, but I remember seeing a mathematical style guide recommending "if" in definitions. Personally I prefer "when", to distinguish it from the notion of logical consequence (as in: You are in a dilemma when you don't know which way to turn), although some may decry the temporal connotation. --LambiamTalk 12:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I much prefer "if", and that's what I observe as common mathematical practice. Dmharvey 12:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think "if" is somewhat unclear, but I have no problem with "only if", "if and only if", the equivalency arrow ($\Leftrightarrow$) and other such language. The term "iff" I object strongly to, at least in basic math articles, on the grounds that it is jargon that is unfamiliar to many basic students of mathematics who have not done proofs. But don't take my word for it - I've seen countless edits where amateurs have "corrected" iff to "if". Deco 13:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Something unseemingly asymmetrical about accepting "only if" (⇐) and rejecting "if" (⇒). I must say I do not understand your position. -lethe talk + 14:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The words "only if" do not imply "given the sufficient condition that", and it is a myth that "if and only if" is the conjunction of "if" and "only if". It is merely a way of clarifying "if" using the additional qualifier "only if" that only serves to strengthen that "no we don't mean this is just a necessary condition" but in fact an equivalency is intended. If I say "a number is prime only if it has exactly two factors", the intepretation is clear; it does not even suggest that there might be a prime which doesn't have two factors. Deco 17:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, "only if" implies "given the necessary condition that", and "if" means "sufficient". And in mathematics, "if and only if" certainly is their conjunction, at least in a formal context, but since this is a formal phrase that is to be expected. Using it in an informal context evokes its formal meaning and is just confusing when you start to split hairs about what it really means, especially given that syntactically, it definitely looks like the conjunction of "if" and "only if". Stating "only if" in a definition is redundant, since the term is intended to be deciphered, not encoded: if I see a long string of conditions which happen to have a nice definition but I don't know it, I will not go looking for one until it's necessary; on the other hand, if I see an unfamiliar term I will go looking for its definition. Putting "only if" in the definition would just mean "whenever you see this term, you can be sure it means this phrase", which is exactly what the process of defining the term means anyway. Combined with the common-sense reason that people just don't talk like that, I say "only if" should stay out. Ryan Reich 18:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Oops, I switched necessary and sufficient, that's not what I meant. I don't object to leaving out "only if" if you find it unclear. I'd like to avoid "if" due to ambiguity if possible, but my main concern is that that we avoid "iff", which people generally assume is a typo if they don't know about it. Deco 21:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I strongly support the use of "if" in definitions over either "iff" or "if and only if". By the way this has (of course) been discussed before. I will now provide for your reading pleasure this oldie but goldi, this blast from our past:

(Start of copied text from talk page archives)
Can I raise the question of whether we want iff in definitions? I don't. I think it's offputting to those not pure-mathematical 'native speakers'. And the idea that it's more rigorous is surely shallow.
Charles Matthews 16:28, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
In the absence of an explicitly-stated convention, I think it's marginally more rigorous than "if". I have occasionally used "if" in a definition and meant "if but not only if", although not on Wikipedia as far as I remember. I'd suggest that if "iff" is undesirable, the best replacement for the non-specialist reader is "if (and only if)", since the rigorous alternative is to ensure that "if" is never used other than to mean "iff". Onebyone 16:49, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I don't accept the 'rigour' argument, anyway. Using 'if' there is an implied 'one can assert' in front of mathematical propositions - which no one writes unless in a very careful formal treatment. Those who care about this can imagine it all anyway. Better, I think, just to use normal language: 'an X is a Y with property P'. I haven't checked whether the definitions of legal terms on Wikipedia make a point of this type of care. On the whole I think it's wasted: it's hard to imagine the user who needs it. Charles Matthews 17:58, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Well, I agree that the pedantry is not worthwhile if it is off-putting for readers. On the other hand, I'll take no part in any kind of global edit to deliberately introduce ambiguity, even if that ambiguity can generally be resolved from context. You say "I think this care is wasted", but I suspect that for most mathematician authors it will require extra care to remember not to do this rather than extra care to do it!
"An X is a Y with property P" sounds good to me, especially in the standout definition at the top of the article. Nobody writes articles on topics other than maths saying "a person is a saint if and only if they have been canonised by the Church" or whatever. If there's a more formal section of maths in the article, I do think that "iff" and other jargon words should be used in that section exactly as the author would use them in any mathematical writing.
Onebyone 10:35, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)
So, my understanding is that the Project isn't trying to prescribe, but is looking for some harmonisation. Charles Matthews 19:02, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)
(End of copied text)

Paul August 18:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

In regards to Lambiam's comment on a style reference, a popular one is Nick Higham's "Handbook of Writing for the Mathematical Sciences." On page 20 of the second edition it says:

By convention, if means if and only if in definitions, so do not write "The graph G is connected if and only if there is a path from every node in G to every other node in G." Write "The graph G is connected if there is a path from every node in G to every other node in G" (and note that this definition can be rewritten to omit the symbol G).

In my own experience, I cannot recall ever seeing "if and only if" in a definition in formal mathematical writing. Can someone supporting the use of "if and only if" cite a current journal article with this usage or give reference to a style manual that advocates its use? Lunch 20:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, in definitions. I didn't realise this was regarding definitions and not theorems. My apologies for my dissent - of course it's redundant in a definition to state that it's an equivalency. I would not use any more verbose language in this case. Deco 21:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

If the consensus is that "iff" may be confusing because some lay-persons do not know what it means and it might be mistaken for a misspelling of "if", then I will not object when other editors change "iff" to "if and only if" or an equivalent. However, I still object to using "if" by itself between the definiendum and the definiens. JRSpriggs 03:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Using a conditional rather than a biconditional in a definition is wrong

"Often ... the definition is a statement that expresses a logical equivalence between the definiendum and the definiens." When we define a mathematical symbol (constant, function, or relation), the definiendum (symbol defined) is a new word being added to our language; and it has no meaning other than that given to it by the definition. The definition is a postulate which gives meaning to the new word. Since it is not normally our intention to add strength to our set of axioms (as the axioms of ZFC), this must be a conservative extension. And we should be able to translate any sentence involving the new word into one which omits it and has the same meaning. If you put a conditonal ("if") rather than a biconditional ("if and only if") between the definiendum and the definiens, then you are doing one of three things:

• Using "if" to mean "if and only if" when in the context of a definition. This is potentially confusing to the readers. First, they may not realize that "if" is being used for "if and only if". Second, they may learn to read "if" as "if and only if" in other circumstances where it is mistake to do so.
• You are using "if" to mean "if", i.e. you really intend the postulate which is the definition to be a conditional rather than a biconditional. In this case, one could not prove the negation of the new word was ever appropriate. For example, if we defined "measurable cardinal" via "κ is a measurable cardinal if it is an uncountable cardinal with a <κ-additive, non-principal ultrafilter.", then we could not prove that 17 was not a measurable cardinal.
• You are assuming that anything which is not provably true is false. Surely, since Gödel's incompleteness theorems, it is clear that this is not a tenable position.

In conclusion, definitions should not be conditionals. JRSpriggs 03:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If you were working in a formal logic, you would not be phrasing your definitions as English sentences at all, and this would not be an issue. The use of "if" in definitions is just one of many places that context is conventionally used to establish the meaning of a symbol. If you did want to make a definition that was not biconditional (for some reason) you could simply use more explicit language such as "A implies that B", "A is a sufficient condition such that B", or implication arrows. Finally, I think the language "B if A" should be avoided in theorem statements in favor of "if A, then B" or "Given A, we have B" or "Whenever A holds, it follows that B", or something a bit less vague; such use would preclude confusion about the meaning of that sentence structure. Deco 04:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The "if" in a definition is not a conditional. It's an assignment, like the = sign in C. This is a well-established linguistic convention (and it doesn't mean "if and only if"; as I said, it's an assignment, and not any sort of proposition at all).
Moreover I have a strong antipathy to using "iff" in formal writing (in any context, not just definitions). It's acceptable on a blackboard, like "wrt", but it should not appear in articles. --Trovatore 04:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Agree with Trov on both counts. That being that "if" in deffintions is perfectly acceptable, while "iff" in definitions is a bit iffy. :) Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 04:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
In a context that makes clear we are offering a definition, "if" works for me.
We say that a foo is a bar if it satisfies mumble.
In a context which is not clearly a definition, we must be more careful.
… A foo is a bar if it satisfies mumble. …
Can a foo be a bar even when it does not satisfy mumble? Here I don't know!
So now we come to the question of what to write in Wikipedia articles. Often definitions are not highlighted as such, but appear inline in a form that is ambiguous about the intent. I myself would never use "iff". I would try to word the statement carefully so that it was clear what I meant. When we write, we know what we mean, so we don't always see the possible confusion our words may cause a reader. But when we see a potential problem, the better solution is to reword to make our intent clear, not to throw in jargon like "iff". Flag a definition as a definition, and our readers will thank us. (Well, no. Actually they'll read happily along, never knowing the confusion we spared them. Bad writing is what gets noticed.) --KSmrqT 14:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I guess I am agreeing with Oleg and Trovatore here. I am happy to go along with pretty much all the authors I respect (Rudin, Lang, Halmos, Ahlfors, ...) and NOT use 'iff' or 'if and only if' in a definition. Either would looks stilted and also be more confusing than helpful to less experienced readers. Madmath789 14:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
As KSmrq said "Often definitions are not highlighted as such, but appear inline in a form that is ambiguous about the intent.". For that reason, if no other, we should use language the same way in definitions that we do elsewhere to avoid confusion. JRSpriggs 05:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
When KSmrq said In a context that makes clear we are offering a definition I took it to mean that a phrase such as we say that or a foo is called bar if or we define a foo to be a bar if is used. This doesn't mean that Definition. has to appear in front of the sentence. By wording the sentence carefully, it can be made clear that a definition is occuring. If it isn't clear, putting in if and only if won't make it clear; that will only make it look more like a theorem if it already looked like one. I agree with several others, by the way, that common usage avoids the phrase if and only if in a definition. CMummert 12:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
We should also make definitions clear by italicising what we are defining. Dysprosia 12:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe this is still going on. I've already made all the arguments I think are necessary to oppose "if and only if", but I do have two questions: is there anyone, anywhere, who has become confused due to the use of "if" in definitions? Would you actually want to read an article so reeking of pedantic formalism? Also, to respond to your comment above: a more important consistency principle than internal consistency is external consistency; our articles must follow common English writing practice. As KSmirq said, it is always possible to set apart definitions from the text (and this would constitute better writing), thus obviating the internal consistency problem, but it is never possible to set apart Wikipedia from the experience of a native English reader. Ryan Reich 12:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Redirects in the list of mathematics articles

Currently we have 12102 articles in the list of mathematics articles. Out of them, 1070 are redirects (see the complete list). Redirects get created in several ways

1. Plugging in some redlink in the list (not anymore, as all redlinks are removed automatically)
2. Merging an article to a bigger article
3. Renaming an article.

In my view it is the third which makes for most redirects.

While redirects are very important, I see no good reason for why they should stay listed in the list of mathematics articles (I estimate that there are at least 2000 math redirects which are not there).

I wonder what people think of a big purge, removing all redirects from the list of mathematics articles. Of course, if at some point a redirect becomes back an article, my bot will add it back to the list. Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

So if I create a redirect to a math article, but the redirect isn't already a redlink from the list, then it doesn't get added to the list? -lethe talk + 22:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
No. The bot adds to the list of mathematics articles via categories. So, if your redirect is made to be in a math category (which it won't, most of the time), the bot will add it to the list. Otherwise it won't. The primary purpose of list of mathematics articles is to list articles I think, not redirects, although a separate list of redirects to math articles may be found useful by some people. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 23:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Well whatever uses there may be for a list of math redirects, this list cannot serve, since it doesn't contain them all. Therefore, you have my full endorsement to remove them. There is simply no reason to have only some of the math redirects in a list, right? -lethe talk + 00:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what purposes the list serves. Take Circular arc, which is currently a redirect to Arc (geometry), but the concepts are distinguishable and Circular arc might eventually grow into a separate article. In an index it would be reasonable to include it. If the purpose is to have a way to visit every maths article to check if its conforms to a new policy, then you'd prefer to skip it. (By the way, it currently is not categorized.) Perhaps math-categorized redirect pages could be listed, but rendered in italics, like with the All pages search. (<-This comment was by User:Lambiam who forgot to sign it. JRSpriggs 11:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC))
OK then, so if a redirect is important enough, it should be categorized, and then my bot will add it in. About making redirects italic, that is harder to do, as I would need to daily download a lot of articles to see which are redirects. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Done. The log is at User:Mathbot/Changes mathlist. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

MathML / improved TeX support

Hi people. For those of you who have been watching developments concerning m:blahtex, MathML support on wikipedia, etc, I'm sure you've noticed nothing much has been happening for a while. Well, for the past few months, Jitse and I have been trying pretty damn hard to push buttons in the background to make things happen, but sadly the core developers simply haven't taken the bait. It seems to be a case of "yeah, it looks interesting, but we've got like 10,000 other things we're trying to do, and we just haven't got around to checking out the code yet...". It seems that wikipedia just doesn't have enough engineer-hours to give us the attention we need to get this going, and there's only so much pushing that Jitse and I can do without becoming annoying pains in the arse.

The status now is that I'm certainly not spending any more time on the code until I have some indication that there's a chance wikipedia is going to use it. And I've had enough of all the promotional "hey everyone isn't blahtex wonderful and y'all should be using it". It's tiring and not really my style. I enjoy writing code, not selling it.

So unless the people who hang out on this page somehow band together and make the developers realise that MathML is something that people want, the project is going to die a serene death. I took the initiative about a year ago, and wrote 13,000 lines of code to prove that it was possible. I'm happy to help out some more, and of course I look forward to the day when there is good mathml support in wikipedia. But someone else needs to take the initiative now, because I'm through.

Anyway, I think I'll go to bed now, make sure I'm bright and fresh to watch Australia defeat Brazil 6-0 tomorrow.

Good luck guys. Dmharvey 03:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a petition signed by the user community? Which is then passed up to Jimbo? This is an important chunk of code that is being laid at the feet of the sysadmins; surely its something that should be picked up. A few words of caution: (1) although the code may work well for you, sysadmins concerned with high-availability servers have a very very very different view of what it means "to run reliably". You might not have given them warm fuzzies on this issue. (2) The WP servers seem often overloaded, there may be unvoiced concerns about impacting performance. If you think these issues are under control, then a public appeal may be the right route to get attention. If they're wobbly, you might get blown out of the water. linas 04:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I've explored the BlahtexWiki and I have to say, I'm quite impressed. I just have two main concerns for implementing MathML on Wikipedia, if those were fixed, I would gladly push the developers to implement it.
1. Browser compatability. Almost nothing works for me in IE 6.0
2. Fonts. It appears as if you need to download special fonts for MathML to display correctly. I'm not sure how many people would want to do that. Also, the radical symbols do not display correctly in Firefox for me.
I would be glad to push for the implementation of MathML in WP if we can somehow figure something out for those two problems. — 04:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no way around the issue of downloading fonts. As far as I can tell, Firefox often lacks some fonts by default. For IE I think one needs the MathPlayer extension.
It is no surprise the developers are weary at accepting a huge chunk of outside code, especially there is not really a huge demand for MathML from users. Any ideas of how to convince the developers to take this step would indeed be much appreciated. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 05:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, thank you, thank you for all of your work. Having written some mathematical typesetting code myself at one time, I have a feeling for what a challenge it is to do a good job. There are so many subtle issues of fonts and stretching and spacing and symantics and positioning and compatibility and on and on, that only someone who has been in the trenches can really appreciate the magnitude of this endeavor. It really takes a champion, like Roger Sidje on the Mozilla project or David Harvey on BlahTeX.
I believe I can speak to systems programmers with some credibility, and I would be happy to do so on behalf of BlahTeX. A noisy outcry from Wikipedia's technical writers might also prove influential. Beyond mathematicians, we have physicists, chemists, biologists, and engineers of all stripes, all of whom could benefit.
The latest word from the STIX Fonts Project is
"After reviewing the tasks required for completion of the project, September was established as a revised target for the beta test. The final production release will likely occur in December, but the TeX package may not be ready until January 2007."
Although the STIX project has not been exemplary in meeting its targets, it does appear that it is real, it is happening, and in a matter of months there will be little excuse to complain about a lack of fonts for MathML.
Why wouldn't we deprecate HTML math formulas, though? If we put it in $ tags, then BlahTeX will render it as HTML, anyway. So there seems to be no reason why we should keep using math formulas written in HTML. In fact, I'm not quite sure why we use inline HTML now for things like variables or "flat" equations that would render (in [itex] tags) now as HTML now anyway with texvc. — 01:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC) The main reason to use HTML now instead of texvc for inline stuff is that the texvc conversion of TeX to HTML on "simple formulas" is so pitiful. Blahtex would generate MathML output for math tags for people who want it, but I think it still falls back to the old texvc HTML conversion for people not using MathML. Also, there are certain things that texvc will tend to encode as PNG rather than HTML (any sort of spacing, for example), so one might be forced to use HTML for the desired result anyway. - Gauge 19:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC) In response to KSmrq's comment about prior discussions involving unicode in mathematics article, on this page, there have been at least three: Paul August 21:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC) Thanks Paul. I found this quote by Dysprosia that I thought was worth repeating here: The difference is that the Unicode alpha is just another character in the text, like "t", or "q". The HTML entity is the string "&alpha;". All good computer systems should support ASCII, and the HTML entity consists of only ASCII characters, so no matter if you use a computer that supports Unicode or if you don't, the string will be unchanged. However, some browsers that don't support Unicode simply ignore the Unicode characters, so if someone edits with one of those browsers, it will look like all the Unicode characters in the article have suddenly disappeared. If the browser chooses to render "α" with a Unicode character, that's fine, but it doesn't mean that that Unicode character is somehow equivalent to the HTML entity -- they aren't. Hope that explains things a bit better... I think this is reason enough to discourage proactively converting HTML entities to Unicode. Let the browser decide which symbol to use instead of forcing a particular Unicode symbol. Also, what is the state of screen reader support for Unicode as of about 5 years ago? It seems reasonable to give handicapped users some time to upgrade their software if Unicode is going to be proactively deployed. I don't mind if people use Unicode in articles, but they shouldn't be converting HTML entities to Unicode wholesale without some discussion. - Gauge 22:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC) \mathscr anyone? Are people interested in having the \mathscr command available? (Provided by \usepackage{mathrsfs}.) Here's what it looks like: The top one is \mathscr, the bottom is \mathcal (which is what we have now). I've noticed that \mathscr (or something similar) is quite popular in certain fields. I've noticed it especially in functional analysis. There wouldn't be any difference in MathML because MathML only defines a single "mathvariant=script". Opinions welcome. Dmharvey 19:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC) It's also popular in algebraic geometry, for denoting sheaves and sheaf-y versions of various things like functors. I've once or twice wished I could use it. It's not essential, but I guess I would say that I'm interested in having it. Ryan Reich 21:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC) Do we get one or the other, or can we have both? Personally, I find \mathcal very useful at times, and wouldn't want to lose it. If we can have \mathscr for those that want it, without losing \mathcal, then that would be great. Madmath789 21:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC) You get to have both. Unless you're viewing with MathML, in which case they look the same. This would only become a problem in articles that use the same letter in the two fonts to mean different things. It would be possible to disable MathML for \mathscr if that's what people wanted, in which case it would fall back on PNGs. Dmharvey 21:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC) MathML is only part of the obstruction. Unicode itself has no font variation facility to handle this (that I know of). There is a code point for "B" (U+0042) and "b" (U+0062), and for "Б" (U+0411) and "б" (U+0431), and for "ב" (U+05d1), and for "𝔅 (U1d505) and "𝔟" (U1d51f), and for "𝔹 (U1d539) and "𝕓" (U1d553), and for "ℬ" (U+212c) and "𝒷" (U1d4b7). The idea seems that be that these variations of "B" are in separate alphabets (Latin, Cyrillic, Hebrew, Fraktur, double-struck, and script), not separate fonts. (The difference between uppercase and lowercase is an anomaly, retained for historical reasons even though it's somewhat inconsistent.) So an argument would have to be made to the Unicode committee that there is an essential semantic difference between the calligraphic alphabet and the script alphabet. I'm guessing it would be a hard sell; we all know mathematicians have a boundless appetite for new alphabets and new characters. (We need this alphabet for the space, and that one for the structure over the space, and the other one for the mapping of the structure over the space, and so on.) I think we already have enough distinctions to tough it out if we must! In fact, any author who wants to make a semantic or type distinction between script and calligraphy is already unkind to readers. For those who are still not persuaded, MathML accepts CSS styling, so it's possible to use a Latin code point and ask for a different font-family. --KSmrqT 01:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC) All very true. In fact, there are a few more: for example there's also 𝖡 (U1d5a1) which is "MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF CAPITAL B" ([7]). Interestingly, the reference glyphs for script letters given on the mathml site ([8]) appear to be the same as the \mathscr above, even though the fonts that I got from the Mozilla site render more like \mathcal. I wonder what the STIX ones will look like. Dmharvey 01:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Is anyone aware of any sources that use both a mathscr-like font and a mathcal-like font, with different semantics? There's a thread on the www-math mailing list discussing this now. If anyone could build a case, we might well get two different font variants in MathML 3.0 (which is on the drawing board). Dmharvey 18:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC) he he he You know how we all put something like "\,\!" at the end of [itex] blocks to force the output as PNG? Well I was just doing some database work and happened to be trying things out on the hebrew wikipedia, and discovered that they all put "\ " at the beginning of the equation! (e.g. [9]) Or is it the end of the equation? I don't even know... the$ comes before the [itex]... Dmharvey 22:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The LaTeX equation itself runs from left to right. In this equation the "\ " is at the beginning. If we think of the eqn as an atom in a right-to-left context, then to the reader the blank space appears to appear to the left of and therefore after the atom (instead of being part of the atom). --LambiamTalk 22:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

interesting statistics

More database work.... last time I checked around the beginning of March, the 13 largest wikipedias had 208,000 distinct equations altogether. Now (as of about mid-June) there are about 289,000. That works out at about a 10% growth rate per month. Pretty amazing. Dmharvey 02:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You should write a paper about it. When it gets published, I can write a Wikipedia article about the paper. Ryan Reich 02:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
And make sure in the Wikipedia article that you use more formulas :-) — 03:15, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Help wanted

The "proof that 0.999... equals 1" article is once more under attack — from the inside. And for the n-th time, Melchoir is involved. I'm sick of dealing with him and (now) Supadawg. If anyone is interested, please get involved in whatever way you see fit. As for me, it's come down to a revert war or walking away.

Some of you may be aware I completely stopped editing Wikipedia articles awhile back, except for really minor things like typos. I confined my contributions to talk pages, because I had no more stomach for seeing articles obstinately trashed by editors with inadequate subject knowledge, horrible writing skills, and no social skills. That worked for me, though not so well for the articles I abandoned. In the current instance, I can't see wasting more time debating with someone who pretends a proof using Dedekind cuts and the Archimedean property is original research, and who doesn't see a problem in beginning a sentence with a decimal point, but who knows exactly how the article should be rewritten.

However, if you long for abuse or have a desperate yearning to save the world (or both!), here's your opportunity. You'll need to act quickly, for the Mongol hordes are invading as we speak. They have already insisted that an article devoted to a proof should not be so named, nor should state that in the opening sentence. ("It's unencyclopedic!") Next on their agenda is a complete rewrite. It boggles the mind.

OK, so saving this article probably won't save the world. Still, I'll bet it gets more page views than the snake lemma and the hairy ball theorem put together (no disrespect intended). Please stop by the talk page, or help revert. (This version works for me, tolerably.)

Just for fun:

Question at job interview: "What is one third plus two thirds?"
• Mathematician: "It's one."
• Engineer (using calculator): "It's 0.999… ."
• Accountant (winking slyly): "What do you want it to be?"

Thanks, all. --KSmrqT 06:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I must say that I find the article unconvincing, also in its earlier incarnations. Surely, it is intended for people who, in a Zeno-like way, feel queasy with the identity. Most of what is in there is completely above their heads. If I was not mathematically educated, and I saw something that needed so many different proofs for its validity to be demonstrated, I would start to doubt the claim made! Can't we just have two proofs:
1. A solid one from first principles, basically saying (sketch): (1) By definition, 0.999... stands for the limit of the sequence 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ... (2) That limit is, by definition of limit, equal to one when the elements of the sequence |0.9-1|, |0.99-1|, |0.999-1|, ... eventually become less than any positive number ε you care to state. (3) And indeed, it does: if the decimal representation of 1/ε has n digits before the decimal point, then the n+1st and subsequent elements are all less than ε.
2. The informal argument: 10x = 9.999...; subtract x giving 9x = 9.000... and therefore x = 1.000..., remarking that this, in fact, informally presents an actually valid mathematical argument.
More is not always better. --LambiamTalk 09:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all, thanks for your imput Lambiam, but I'm afraid that's a no (from me at least). It doesn't need so many proofs to prove its validity. The many proofs are to present alternate methods of prooving this "theorem". Any one of those proofs would serve to prove that 0.999…=0.
Second, KSmrq, I think that you're actions were not appropriate above. We don't have a consensus yet either way, and you're already assembling a revert army, or so it seems from your statement above. Also you did not provide a link to the infinite geometric series proof, and only to your version of the article, without the proof. If we do achieve consensus to delete the section, I will let it be deleted (although personally I would rather it stay – perhaps you remember when I added the proof on April 1 of this year, and you swiftly removed it), but until we have that consensus, it will stay in the article. — 13:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Please direct all follow-ups to the article talk page. They will properly be associated with the article history, and won't annoy the vast majority of mathematicians who don't long for abuse. Thanks. --KSmrqT 15:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm happy to join the corps of reverters for that article, but I cannot in good conscience revert to the version you link, which is buried behind over a hundred edits already. The best I can do is add the article to my watchlist and revert future changes. -lethe talk + 15:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem. I had a hard time picking through all the debris to find a good target, with all the additions and reversions that have been happening lately, so I went back further to be safe. Thanks for anything you feel comfortable doing to help. --KSmrqT 15:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Redirect question

Is there a way to have a redirect focus the point on a specific section of the article? Specifically, I have in mind the redirect from Koszul connection to covariant derivative, which reads

# REDIRECT [[covariant derivative#Koszul connection]]

If you follow the link explicitly, by clicking the above link, then the point focuses on the relevant section. But if you follow the link Koszul connection, then you are taken to covariant derivative without the change in focus. Any thoughts or advice? Silly rabbit 17:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

See Help:Link#Redirects_with_section_links. I recall reading a different document that explicitly said that they had no intention of ever allowing section links within redirects, but I don't know where that went (the "Help" is not always very much help here; they make it very hard to find the detailed manual and I always forget how). Ryan Reich 18:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Hehehe... I just found some related results, and was about to come here and answer my own question: Meta:Help:Redirect#A redirect to an anchor and bugzilla:218. It's kind of annoying that this seems to be impossible. Any stylistic pointers on how to handle a merger of this sort? Silly rabbit 18:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Redirect to the top of the page. If the article is well-written then the appropriate section header will be in the TOC and clearly visible (i.e. the preamble won't take up much space). If not, well-rewrite it. In any case, if you have a page that used to link to Koszul connection, you could just put a pipe in that link and avoid the redirect entirely. Ryan Reich 18:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Split of List of mathematicians

Sorry if I startled you, the WikiProject, but I boldly separated the List of Mathematicians article into eight smaller articles. Prior to this, the article was giant: it ranked in the Top 50 on Special:Longpages. Seeing as this is problematic, since not all of our users have the patience to load a page that is hundreds of kilobytes in size, I took the liberty to divide it into smaller pieces. I'm sorry if it's unacceptable to the WikiProject, but I was doing what I felt was good for the list. —THIS IS MESSEDOCKER (TALK) 02:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Relax. :) As I told you on your talk page, the big problem is that you did not realize a bot is used to update that page, and it will just happily overwrite your changes, or worse, will get confused by it and then the page will be messed up.
The list of mathematicians is 164 kilobytes. Time to split? Should it be split modeling the list of mathematics articles, that is, separate lists for each letter, or should there be a grouping into bigger lists, say A-C, D-F, etc.? Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes a split seems a good idea. I would go for one list per letter. I can't really see an an advantage of A-C lists etc. I suspect most people who use the list will be looking for a specific person and so it will be easy enough for them to click on a specific letter. Further, the number of mathematicians per letter is already quite long for about half the letters. --Salix alba (talk) 08:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought of the same thing. I will work on it when I find time. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Done. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Geostatistics

This article is extremely POV, particularly considering the open criticism of Geostatistics within the main page. I was hoping that someone with more experience could build some equations and expand on the evolution of geostatistics. Considering how widely geostatistics is used for the natural sciences, environmental planning, climate studies, oceanic studies, military analysis, urban planning, and Geographic Information Systems, this topic warrants some attention from math experts. SCmurky 03:56, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

JanWMerks is at it again. He's been editing geostatistics, semivariance, spatial dependence, variogram, sampling variogram, kriging, junk science, consensus science, Tolstoy syndrome, and Bre-X; I may have missed some. He's been admonished in the past for his crusading; see his talk page and his list of "contributions". It might be nice if more people added these pages to their watch lists to undo his edits. (BTW, SCmurky, why did you delete my previous comment?) Lunch 17:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it is time to take more serious action Wikipedia:Resolving disputes posibly a request for mediation. --Salix alba (talk) 20:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)