Talk:September 11 attacks

Daily Beast and Clarke's new allegations

[2] If Richard Clark is really saying these things, it will probably be reported in more mainstream sources soon. I'm not sure where this would go in the articles we have on this subject. Cla68 (talk) 02:06, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I thought we established that his comments didn't really have enough weight for inclusion. Especially with such a trimmed down article. Should go in the conspiracy theory page. --Tarage (talk) 04:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Clarke admits he can't prove it...and it appears to be the rumblings of a disgruntled former employee...MONGO 16:39, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Right now, the articles on the hijackers and on the advance-knowledge debate are probably the best places. Reliable sources do not describe Clarke's statements as conspiracy theories, nor do they describe him as a disgruntled former employee.  Cs32en Talk to me  18:18, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Right now and henceforth is a more accurate assessment. We can surely anticipate that the conspiracy theorists will ensure the ramblings by a former employee that even he states he can't prove will provide innuendo and illusion to some article somewhere.MONGO 11:42, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Right now I don't think this belongs anywhere. Clarke seems to be admitting he has no evidence to support these allegations and that therefore they are pure speculation on his part. Clarke made these claims in an interview conducted in October 2009 and hasn't made them anywhere else before or since (assuming he hasn't been misrepresented in this interview). The documentary referred to is produced by two people who previously produced another 9/11 documentary which at least flirts with conspiracy theories. The claims being made plainly constitute a conspiracy theory in that they propose a massive high-level cover-up. Claiming that specific named individuals took part in this cover-up with no evidence whatsoever would also raise BLP issues. If this becomes more widely reported after the documentary is released then it may be appropriate to include it in the articles on conspiracy theories or advance knowledge (there is some overlap between the two) but it certainly doesn't belong in the articles on the hijackers. Hut 8.5 12:00, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

New book goes into possible Iranian and Saudi connections

This Sunday Telegraph article [3] covers a new book called, The Eleventh Day by Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan. According to the article, the book examines the role that the Iranian and Saudi government may have played in the attack and allegations that, for political reasons, the Saudi role may have been downplayed by the Bush administration. Cla68 (talk) 23:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Good article, thanks for posting the link. Tom Harrison ^Talk 00:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

FAC review improvments

If someone could deal with the mdash and nbsp problems identified here and [4] that would be helpful. Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:45, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Will do...in about 8 hours.MONGO 16:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Overlinking is mentioned, so I'll try to pare those down some more. Maybe we can avoid adding any links that aren't absolutely essential.

One reviewer mentions "image problems (stacking/sandwiching, caption issues, etc)." I'm not able easily to deal with those; maybe someone good with images could take a look. Tom Harrison ^Talk 00:26, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Tom can you point me to the reviewer's comments or link a diff? (I'm sure it's hiding in plain sight of my searches) - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 05:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/September 11 attacks/archive1; Thanks, Tom Harrison ^Talk 11:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I made one image move but overall we do have a stack-fest. Comments on the images...favorites? favorite-hated? what can go? what must stay? just change it and we'll see? - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 13:28, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The collage at the top is very good. If there are any, we might include throughout the article more information-rich images like the "Map showing the attacks on the World Trade Center" that is in the section Planning of the attacks. The sections Aftermath, Long-term effects, and Memorials could maybe use some more images. Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the second paragraph of the Casualties section because the old version had several problems: it isn't correct to say that all the casualties in the towers were killed in the impact or were trapped (and this is a misquotation of the 9/11 commission report anyway), the figures weren't sourced and don't appear in the 9/11 commission report, and the fact that one stairwell in the South Tower remained open can't possibly account for the much reduced casualty figures because only 18 survivors used it. Hut 8.5 15:23, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

That makes more sense. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

For the general prose issues noted in the FAC comments, it would be helpful for a good writer who hasn't read the article before, to read it and make or suggest specific changes. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The FAC reviewer closed the nomination after 2(!) days....its hard to get decent advice when the target page for such advice is closed and archived...I have my own suggestions and can surely get all the refs and MOS issues resolved in a week but you are correct Tom in that we truly need a totally neutral poet to make the writing better.--MONGO 02:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

There are serious problems with writing quality and emphasis that should really prevent this in its current state from being even considered as a "good" article. Shame the anniversary is coming up and it is in such a poor state. --John (talk) 06:20, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

• For the general prose issues noted in the FAC comments, it would be helpful for a good writer who hasn't read the article before, to read it and make or suggest specific changes. Tom Harrison ^Talk 12:42, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
  • I'd love to help but the problems of this article go beyond copyediting. It would need a complete rewrite. Have you considered asking around? --John (talk) 17:34, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

If you want to, write something up in your userspace and people can take a look at it. There will need to be consensus for any big changes. Tom Harrison ^Talk 17:41, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I am really tempted by this suggestion, but I fear that the "consensus" of the current cohort working on this article is what has left it in its present unsatisfactory state. I think that for it to be improved would really need a wider, more diverse group of editors working on it, something that no one person can really achieve. Maybe the problem is that even ten years after the event, this subject is just too difficult to write a decent article on? I will continue to think about it but it is really a management problem more than it is a copyediting one. Would that it were otherwise. --John (talk) 20:21, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, you can join that cohort by working on the article. Alternatively, there are lots of linked articles you can work on. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:49, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I might take the task on, but certainly not until the 11th has passed because it would get lost in the frenzy of edits the anniversary will inevitably attract. John, could you elaborate a little? I haven't read the article (and don't intend to yet, because if I do copy-edit or re-write it, I want to come to it completely fresh), but it'd be nice to hear where folks think the major problems will be. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:08, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

• A grown-up organization, the BBC, thinks torture, kidnapping and conspiracy theories are notable enough to report on in relation to the September 11 attacks. This article, apparently because of a group of editors generating local consensus by force of numbers, does not. This is both a symptom and a cause of the article's poor quality; honestly, at the moment it isn't even really a GA. Fixing these issues would be a start, if anybody was serious about trying to get it into better shape. At the moment, I am inclined to agree with this harsh but honest critique from someone who has written more FAs than all of us put together and should therefore know what they are talking about. --John (talk) 18:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

• [5] does not show that the BBC consider conspiracy theories to be a significant part of 9/11 because the article is entirely focused on conspiracy theories. We also have an article focused entirely on 9/11 conspiracy theories, so in that respect we are the same as the BBC. The issue here is whether the conspiracy theories are significant enough to warrant a mention in a general discussion of 9/11. When mainstream news outlets report on the anniversary of 9/11 it is extremely unlikely that they will mention conspiracy theories unless the report is specifically about conspiracy theories. We should do the same. Hut 8.5 18:54, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, I've seen that argument, and I understand it represents the current local consensus; I think as I said that this is one of the things holding the article back at present. --John (talk) 19:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

• John, I think the article still is TOO broad...the topic is September 11 attacks...I have always believed that aside from the events of the day and the major issues that arose from those events, that this article should stick to those fine points to maintain FOCUS. This article may still be a long way from being an FA, but it is a far cry better than it was 90 days ago and its not because "partisans" made it worse.--MONGO 21:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

• At nearly 8,000 word in length, I would have thought there'd be quite a bit that could be split off into daughter articles, leaving a shorter article here that summarises the events and refers readers elsewhere for more information on a particular topic. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:27, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

• I'm with HJM here; the article is too long but not broad enough. This was a good start at trying to redress the problem, MONGO, I appreciate that. Once the article is made more neutral in its content, the next job would be to slim down some of the extraneous stuff and try to rewrite it for flow and tone. An article on 9/11 which does not mention the controversies is never going to be a good article let alone a featured one, however complete the local consensus remains among folks still prepared to edit here in spite of the hostile atmosphere. As a minimum it should mention the conspiracy theories; that BBC source could easily provide a model. It should also cover the torture and kidnappings (or, if you must, "enhanced interrogation" and "extraordinary rendition") that took place in the following years using 9/11 as a pretext. Far more people died in the two major wars the US launched in response to the attacks than on the day. The article in its current state does not adequately tell this story, in my opinion. --John (talk) 01:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks...I don't have a problem with both sides of the coin so long as we stick to the FOCUS and SCOPE issues. Long discussions starting last March and leading through two Rfc's on the subject indicated that there was strong consensus to remove the CT's. I can't also see why dwelving into the alleged kidnappings and torture has any place in this article, either in passing or in depth. You make it sound like the Bushies had goons sitting back clapping that 9/11 happened so they could get a chance to "torture" people...ridiculous. While somewhere those "stories" do need to be told to satisfy whatever purpose they may, I can't see how that place is here. As far as deaths..in the War on Terror it has been more than the events of 9/11...as was the war with Japan after Pearl Harbor, maybe we should have tried to "reason" with the unreasonable. Furthermore, if I had a dollar for every victim of left wing backed oppression, imprisonment, torture and death in places like China, the former Soviet Union, Cuba...etc., I would be filthy rich. If we start going into the alleged controversies, then this article will once again become garbage...a state it was in forever thanks in no small part due to editors who are more interested in pseudoscience and innuendo than providing a fact based accord that maintains FOCUS and SCOPE.--MONGO 02:48, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• I know we differ on this issue, but this isn't about you and me, it's about changing the article to conform with FA expectations. If that is truly your wish, it is my strong feeling (and I was asked to give my opinion) that if it's good enough for the BBC it should be good enough for us. Not including the various controversies around this historical event here on its article is holding the article back. Here is one of many examples of missed opportunities to balance this article. The lack of intervention by the world's most powerful Air Force while its largest city was being trashed by suicide bombers is highly notable and has been written on by many reliable sources. Why is there no mention of this? Why were these good-faith efforts to add well-referenced text brushed aside? --John (talk) 03:09, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• "The lack of intervention by the world's most powerful Air Force while its largest city was being trashed by suicide bombers is highly notable and has been written on by many reliable sources"...are you kidding me...what was the worlds largest airforce supposed to do? I'm not sure you have any understanding of the timeline of events, (nor do apparently the alleged writers of these "stories") the fact that initiating an airforce response without knowing exactly how many planes were hjacked, the ramifications of shooting down passenger jets, even if they were heading to the Capital, etc. You want us to venture into conspiracy thories, right? No thanks! I too am wondering if this article can become an FA...if we're going to have to go out on a limb over every piece of wacky misinformation to appease the CTers, it probably won't. It isn't that the alleged "controversies" aren't covered enough to keep this from becoming an FA..it is because it still needs massive MOS improvements and a general cleanup of the flow and structure to improve readability...and possibly sending some sections to daughter articles to improve FOCUS.--MONGO 03:26, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Fix reference: Would someone skilled pls review & do it?

I looked up a reference (currently numbered 246), NIST WTC 7 Investigation Finds Building Fires Caused Collapse. The link has been moved to: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc-082108.cfm I would have edited the main article, but I'm not so confident of my editing skills that I felt up to editing such a major article. Would someone please fix this? (This particular note will be of only temporary value and pls feel free to delete it after it's fixed. Minor edit later.) Oaklandguy (talk) 16:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC) Oaklandguy (talk) 05:37, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for reporting it. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 05:57, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Target of flight 93

In response to this edit the target of flight 93 isn't anything like that clear cut. United_Airlines_Flight_93#Aftermath goes into some detail discussing the possibilities of what the intended target was and the 9/11 commission report is equivocal ("Jarrah’s objective was to crash his airliner into symbols of the American Republic, the Capitol or the White House" - page 14). In light of this I don't think we should state that the target was definitely the Capitol. Hut 8.5 22:37, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

KSM stated that Atta and Hanjour discussed the difficulties of making a strike on the White House...but I'm going to look that over and see if we can adjust it to show what you mention. I would prefer a short mention of this ambiguity so as to not drown out other details since no primary target was reached by Flight 93.MONGO 11:43, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Reference formatting

In the reference citations, does anyone object to delinking Fox News, CNN, AP, CBS News, etc.? Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:45, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Don't think that's necessary. Several recently promoted FAs have this sort of link in the references and the MoS doesn't seem to say anything on the subject. Hut 8.5 14:16, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay; easier to leave them alone, and they may be useful. Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the general consensus at FAC is that each field of the references (like publishers in this case) should be linked first time, every time, or not at all, and if you're using sources that aren't as widely known as Fox/CNN/AP/CBS and would need to be linked, I guess you should link everything at least once. But overlinking isn't generally an issue with references—it's not a common complaint at FAC in my experience, and I personally hold the view that, since an individual footnote is accessible by one click without viewing the whole reference section, it should provide all the information a reader need, including information about the source (for which a link to the Wikipedia article comes in handy). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:03, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

See also?

Might be better to remove the See also section and work the links into the article? Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:48, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

In FA's, that is usually standard since FA's are generally comprehensive. I am working top to bottom on this article trying to standardize it and delinking to eliminate redundancies...even after I finish that by Sunday 9/4/11...it will still need a better writer than I to work the prose. I can deal with MOS issues, especially this weekend, but I'm not a great writer overall.--MONGO 00:37, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I wrote Iranian Embassy siege, which recently became an FA, and I left a modest "see also" section in it and nobody at FAC complained. Unless there's coverage dealing specifically with the cultural impact, I don't know where you could put links to things like the films, but they're undoubtedly worth linking to from this article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:56, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Discrepancy in number of victims identified

In this article, the number is 1630, but one more has been identified since then. The World Trade Center article says 1629. I know because I added it. I checked various sources and there is no reason to doubt any of them, but someone is wrong. Sources that say 1629 are [6], [7], [8], [9], [10] and this source I used. Sources that say 1630 but are now outdated because of the additional victim are [11] and this source used in this article.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:17, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Why no 9\11 conspiracy section?

There is not a single mention of this.Why cant you add this in see also?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchurian candidate (talk • contribs) 01:08, September 2, 2011

Consensus is against the idea. Hut 8.5 11:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Referencing

Current having the The Wikipedia citation bot scan the article...the article has inconsistant citation styles that are all in need of standardization.--MONGO 17:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Bot edits are as seen at this edit, showing bot additions...also, I placed the bot report in my userspace...in case someone knows how to look at this report and see if all is okay....you can check the report here.--MONGO 18:10, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Shortly I'll go through all the citations and replace "author" with "last" and "first" name fields. Someone speak up if that's a bad idea. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done - I will have gone over all the "long form Google book links" and convert them to short form links using Google book tool. Moxy (talk) 20:11, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

So converting long links like http://books.google.ca/books?id=xMCGStzPzooC&lpg=PP1&dq=September%2011%20attacks&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=true

To links short links like http://books.google.com/books?id=xMCGStzPzooC&pg=PP1

I've kept "author" in the citation when an institution was listed - National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, National Construction Safety Team - and one case where the article lists no author. That's all for now. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:27, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

References 117-119

The references given in footnotes 117, 118, and 119 are not useful as sources for the content of the article. They lack page numbers and rather look like a list for "Further reading".  Cs32en Talk to me  00:33, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Some have page numbers while others don't...and some won't since they are simply not indexed. I was looking at that as well...let me have a day to examine what to do about them as some might be useful.--MONGO 02:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)