Talk:Kuvasz

redraft

I did a substantial redraft of the page in order to clean it up a bit and also try to flesh out the discussions concerning the origin of the breed's name and its history generally. Please feel free to add and to correct any typos. Not sure about the picture request. This was brought up previously and a different wikipedian said it wasn't needed, however a picture of a dog standing and at a better resolution might be helpful. croll 02:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

Are the Kuvaszok also known as the Hungarian Sheepdog? They're not really a sheepdog -- they're a livestock guardian and are not often found in the role of a herding animal. More importantly, the term Hungarian Sheepdog seems to arise more with respect to the Puli and Komondor (particularly the Puli). I'm thinking of deleting this reference but would appreciate comments. croll 21:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Hungarian Sheepdog" reference but happy to see it put back in if someone can show it's accurate. croll 19:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

They are actually known as 'Juhasz Kutya' , translating into Shepherds dog, not sheep dog. The term Juhasz Kutya is used for both Kommondor and Kuvasz.Horsemount 22:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Citation Needed

Someone (very rightly) added a citation needed mark on the issue of the breed's origins. I've looked and have had trouble finding one, however I thought I read somewhere that the Kuvasz Club of America has stricken references to Szumeria from its literature precisely because this theory has been debunked. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a source for that, either, and I could be wrong. croll 14:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed -- I think. croll 15:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

History

Could someone explain the relevance of the Bouvier des Flandres to this article? Where they in Hungary as well, or is this just a reference to a breed that suffered a similar ordeal during World War II? croll 14:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

• So far, this hasn't been explained. Not only that, but the reference to the Soviet's role in the near-extermination of the breed has now been twice removed despite the fact that it is cited. Per the cited source, "Advancing Nazi and Russian armies shot Kuvaszok who impeded their movements by protecting their families and property, and countless other dogs died from starvation in the postwar food shortages. When Hungarian fanciers sought to salvage their historic breed, only twelve surviving Kuvasz could be found. Another small population of Kuvaszok existed in Germany. Cut off from Hungarian influence, German breeders suffered considerable confusion about correct Kuvasz type and began breeding Kuvaszok whose appearance differed vastly from the Hungarian population." For the record, someone else originally added the Soviet reference (not me) but it does appear to be true. Please don't remove it again without discussion. croll 00:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
• Also, what relevance does the 2nd SS Division Das Reich have to this article or the near-extermination of the Kuvasz, or has this been referenced merely because that Division invaded Hungary? croll 00:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Removed the reference to the 2nd Division due to lack of a citing reference or explanation of relevance to the Kuvasz, but I'm happy to see it put back in if it's relevant and can be cited. croll 23:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

External Links

I removed the link to the "Danish Kuvasz Page" as it is primarily a page in a foreign language, which is prohibited under WP:EL. There is some English content, but mostly not. Also, the page appears to be more about a specific dog rather than the breed generally. After further development and more English content, it may be worth putting back in but not right now. croll 15:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Photos of puppies would be nice

In dog breed articles, it's usually a good idea to try and include a photo of an adult animal and a puppy so readers can see the two different stages of developement. I don't have any such photos but if other editors do, please add one. It wouldn't hurt to add even more such as a young pup, say about weaning age and then another young dog at say 3 to 4 months or even 6 months of age. Just a suggestion.LiPollis (talk) 01:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Kuvasz KOO-vahss

"The Kuvasz (pronounced KOO-vahss; in Hungarian language the plural is Kuvaszok, pronounced KOO-vah-sock)" from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Kuvasz Cuvtixo (talk) 02:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC) The present pronunciation is tagged with IPA(International Phonetic Alphabet). I'm not sure its entirely accurate, but its presence contradicts the request for a an IPA pronunciation. Strange that an IPA entry would use only conventional Roman letters. Cuvtixo (talk) 03:12, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

kuvasz maremma pyrenees guardian dogs

Picking and owning a guardian dog I owned Maremma / Pyrenees while my neighbor owned 3 kuvasz and the only differences we found were the potential for more aggressiveness in the kuvasz, and that may well have been to the difference in home position to the road and used it to protect pigs and house. My experience in picking them is waiting for the one that stays away, last one to come out as a pup. The younger you can get them the better, unless they are with the type of animal you will put them with. Things to understand about this bread is they DO NOT like change, if you move pens frequently it confuses them if an animal belongs in a certain place they like to keep them there . We found them to only get pushy if say the horses charged the fence the dogs would bark and run at them to stop the offense also if the pigs came in the yard the dogs used their size to push at the pig barking in the ear accelerating if the animal did not respond, nipping the ear until animal responded appropriately. Our guardian dog was loving and protective of the baby pigs, having as many as 10 babies of assorted sizes sleeping on and around the dog. They like to do a perimeter check daily so walking them on their boundaries is helpful to keeping them home. They can be very intimidating to people because the way they treat wayward animals is how they will treat people who appear to not belong in your property. Eg. when we had to move off the farm we were hesitant to lose our dogs so we had them in a big yard when people would loiter in front of our place they would run over barking put their shoulder against the person pushing until they moved on. This was frightening to people who did not understand the breed. In the end we had to give the dog away to a working farm .We had the same problem with the working retriever dogs that have a purpose do not like being dormant. If you want to have a guardian dog as a pet you MUST spend a lot of time with them initially so they understand their role in your family they guard what they perceive to be their pack so whatever you give them they belong to and they do not transfer owners easily. If they are the right mix with your need you will NEVER find a better dog. An interesting footnote about the breed is ,half way from Fort Saint John BC and Dawson Creek BC is a heard of sheep with 2 guardian dogs there is close to 100 sheep and no fence in the 7 years we have lived here the sheep have never been even close to the road or the neighbors fields. Melboden Melboden (talk) 17:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Couple of things.

1. Work on your grammar and punctuation, the lack-there-of made it difficult to read that.
2. How does this help the encyclopedia?
3. On their dislike of being moved, they like to have very clearly defined territory.
4. Pyrenees have a very gentle temperament, and it also depends on the individual.
5. Spend time with them yes, but you want them to bond with the herd. During their socialization period, you leave them with the flock (or whatever you're having them guard). While you work with the flock you'll be near them, so they'll be used to you.

I recommend for further reading Storey's Guide to Raising Sheep, chapter 5 part 2. GoogolplexForce ♪J♪ 19:26, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

"thought to be of Hungarian origin"

According to the archeological evidences, the Hungarians have used the Kuvasz as a guardian dog for at least 1100 years. Thanks to many dedicated breeders, especially Antal Kovacs (who bred the dogs at the Wooltrade National Company from 1945) the breed was saved from extinction after the ww2, again in Hungary.

It was and it is a totally usual, everyday dog in Hungary. I simply don't get it, why it isn't a hungarian dog or a breed that originated in Hungary, why it is just "thought to be of Hungarian origin" and "although regarded today as one of the Hungarian breeds".

And by the way Hungarian and Magyar are totally the same thing. It's like German and Deutsch. If you would say that not all Germans are Deutsch you will end up at an asylum.88.132.185.3 (talk) 06:11, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I've removed both the Tibetan story (sounds to me like what the Animal Planet made up in Dogs 101 for the Komondor's origin story), and the ridiculous ancient Mesopotamian nomad tribe bit. It gives the impression that the ancient Magyar tribes have nothing to do with today's Hungarians. Or if I misunderstood that, then it would still imply that we Hungarians came from ancient Mesopotamia (yeah, sure and Jesus was actually Hungarian too, yada yada...). 178.48.233.235 (talk) 10:28, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

I have removed the pictures that don't represent the breed at all, I actually think they were great pyrenees. Kuvasz has a very special head and always have wavy hair. Wikipedia is a reference for most and those pictures were misleading. There are many great pictures of typical kuvasz from all around the world in the following page, but I am not sure if it's ok to use them: http://kuvaszklips.blogspot.no The breed standard: http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/054g01-en.doc PLEASE watch some pictures of real kuvasz before you say it's vandalism to delete these weird pictures!!!Kuvaszf (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for coming to this page to discuss this, Kuvaszf. Unfortunately the images on the sites you indicate would not be suitable to use as they will be copyrighted. Do you have Kuvasz yourself that you could perhaps take photographs of and upload? The pictures that are used at the moment are indicated as being Kuvasz (and one looks as if it was taken at a show) so should be left in place until consensus is achieved to remove (or keep) them. SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oh yes they are. Those pictures are indeed all Kuvasz, I know the breed and what you do is pure vandalism. I have been working with this breed in Hungary. Hafspajen (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Why don't you ask a kuvasz club like Kuvasz Fanciers of America or the hungarian MEOE or MKFE (the ones FCI recognizes) if this dog represents the breed? This dog is not typical at all, it has wrong coat, wrong position and size of the ears, wrong form of the eyes, strange head for a kuvasz etc. In the following link you can watch a video of the World Dog Show that took place in Budapest last year, it will show lots of good dogs, including the winner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWSkbWPxDw You can also see pictures of the winner in this link: http://www.kutyuska.sokoldal.hu/naszaly The best kuvasz of the world chosen in Hungary, it says a lot! You don't have to be a dog judge to notice that dozens of dogs shown in the first link I posted here in my previous comment look like the winner and the dog on wikipedia does not look like the world winner at all. I do have kuvasz myself but it did not feel right to delete these pictures to post my own, although my dogs are typical. But if I ask the breeder of the world winner kuvasz if I can use his pictures (and maybe one more good hungarian breeder), can I delete the pictures of the strange kuvasz then? Kuvaszf (talk) 15:14, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Kuvaszf, the pictures would have to be copyright free - usually this means not taken by a professional photographer. Sometimes it is difficult when there are differing types within a breed as people's preferences/interpretation of breed standards can vary - I personally don't feel the pictures used in the articles of my own main breeds are typical illustrations but such is life! By the way, it's best not to mark your post as a 'minor edit' as it then doesn't send a notification out to let others know you have posted a comment; however, the small subsequent alteration you made would count as a minor edit - does that make sense? SagaciousPhil - Chat 16:04, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• De ha a Kutyuskát nem lehet a Kuvasz szócikkbe belerakni mivel a kép nemszabad akkor sajnos nincs mit csinálni. Hafspajen (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and advice, SagaciousPhil. You are always polite and helpful with new users. Of course I should have taken my time to read before making changes. These pictures have always hurt my eyes so when I finally decided to join Wikipedia I was too eager to delete them. I did not even know there were editors, so when I saw my first change was reverted I just changed again, thought it was a normal user, maybe the owner of the dog, did not know we could discuss about the changes. I delayed to see I had got a message. When I finally saw your message I did not know at all how to answer it. Then I found out about this page and explained myself and even so I got warnings instead of answers. I actually wanted to quit Wikipedia and never make a donation again. And now I get a message in hungarian, should I use Google Translator and get a translation that might be more misleading than these kuvasz pictures? About the dog pages, yes, that's life, but we can always try to make life better ;) There was an american show type before but it's a consensus now, everyone wants the hungarian type, the kuvasz of the FCI standard. We can't go wrong using pictures from the best hungarian breeders, the ones breeding the typical original kuvasz, including the World Winner. Not my pictures, not pictures from my favourite american breeder. I am sure I can get pictures from these hungarian breeders taken by themselves (not copyrighted). I will ask them and come back to you. Kuvaszf (talk) 17:35, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

So, you can't speak Hungarian? Judging what you explained above, this would be a thypical case of:

  Don't edit where you have a conflict of interest

Hafspajen (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

??? If I was a breeder and was uploading my own pictures, I could agree. But I'm not a breeder, I'm not uploading pictures of my own dogs, I'm doing this for the kuvasz, trying to get pictures of the typical hungarian kuvasz, including of the World Winner 2013, which everyone agree is a typical kuvasz, just ask the kuvasz clubs. What am I getting with this? Nothing at all! Kuvaszf (talk) 18:31, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is your oppinion. Hafspajen (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

- Be polite, and welcoming to new users - Assume good faith Kuvaszf (talk) 19:18, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• You were not exactly making a god start on this article, that would indicate an overly good faith in your actions. Do I have to remind you that you come within an ace of being indefinitly blocked from editing because of your actions on this article! You recived the final warning. Not a good start. You indeed caused a lot of irritation to several editors, incuding myselt. Generally I AM polite with new users, I really am. But after all your actions please do not expect me to be welcoming and my good faith is somewhat shaken. I think that you should start considering all this before you jump att me like you did, craving good fait and welcoming attitudes. And your username Kuvaszf indicates biase, and I only have your word for that you are not a breeder or don't have any other conflicting or non neutral issue here.

Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view: We strive for articles that document and explain the major points of view, giving due weight with respect to their prominence in an impartial tone. We avoid advocacy and we characterize information and issues rather than debate them. In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others, we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as "the truth" or "the best view". All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy, citing reliable, authoritative sources, especially when the topic is controversial or a living person. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong. Hafspajen (talk) 19:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

To know or not know how to edit Wikipedia has nothing to do with good or bad faith. Since my first post here I am giving links and all kinds of sources to prove what a typical kuvasz is. I did not upload my pictures, I did not upload pictures with copyright. We can't say "kuvasz has wavy hair" and then have pictures of kuvasz with straight hair. It's much better for the breed and for Wikipedia to have pictures of typical dogs. I have posted at least 4 links and 3 names of clubs, I'm not simply giving my opinion. Kuvaszf (talk) 20:03, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• To know or not know how to edit Wikipedia - yes. But you simply ignored three warnings, is that something you remember? Hafspajen (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• See that you will not apologize for anything you did, so let’s talk about the coat. About the wavy coat, you say Kuvasz has. Kuvasz do not have an overly wavy coat. This picture from the AKC is presenting a dog that is not much different from thee coats of the pics in the article. Hre more pictures from AKC. https://www.akc.org/breeds/kuvasz/index.cfm https://www.akc.org/breeds/kuvasz/photos.cfm

We go then to the AKC description of the coat: The coat ranges from quite wavy to straight.. You can read about it here, http://www.akc.org/breeds/kuvasz/breed_standard.cfm and Sagaciousphil, I think that those pictures are quite in order. Hafspajen (talk) 22:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Can't you move on and talk only about kuvasz? I already explained it. I did not even see the first warning until the second change. Then I understood that as long as I explained the changes I could make them. So I edited the page again and wrote a text explaining why. When I finished the text saying why I deleted the pictures, they were back, so I deleted – I thought they were back because nobody knew the reason yet. I was not writing on this page and checking my talk page at the same time so I did not even see the second warning. And when you sent your warning I had already explained myself so I actually don't agree with that one, it would be easier to reply here. Anyway, of course I must admit it was very stupid of me not to read more about editing, I thought it was just to change, then with the first warning I thought it was just to change and explain... Did not know I had to discuss and agree with some ones about it in advance. So, what does it say about my faith? Nothing. But let's say I am lying now, I'm an evil kuvasz breeder - probably the one who bred the world winner 2013 since I want to put his pictures. What would I achieve with this “evil plan” of deleting the pictures many times until I’m banned (and not even uploading my own pictures)? It does not sound like a good plan, does it? So I insist it does not say anything about my faith.

I am sure that although I was very silly not reading about editing (for what I apologize to the ones that were not rude and did not doubt my faith), after finding this page I gave valid arguments and sources. And I showed I am willing to use my time talking to Hungarian breeders to get good pictures for Wikipedia - although there are many good breeders in the USA, Sweden, Argentina, Netherlands etc. I just thought there would be no discussion that to use pictures from Hungarian breeders of a Hungarian breed, where the best breeders worldwide are importing dogs from, was a good idea. There is actually no discussion among the breeders worldwide that the world winner 2013 is a good and typical kuvasz. In Hungary and most countries they follow the FCI standard (or rather FCI follows the hungarian standard) and you can ask the club Kuvasz Fanciers of America, they are not breeding for straight coats in the USA as well, it's about that old american show type I mentioned in a previous comment. They still groom the dogs a lot in the USA before the shows, but that's all. The original standard says that any coat other than wavy (like straight or curly) is an ELIMINATING FAULT. CKC standard also says the coat must be wavy. If we can try to get pictures of the best kuvasz in the world to represent the breed, why not? Why use one with a great pyrenees head (when the FCI standard says that "the Kuvasz can mainly be distinguished from other breeds by his head shape") and without typical coat (eliminating fault)? Just put the picture of his head besides the world winner head, the differences are so clear! If Wikipedia was using these AKC pictures I wouldn't be here, most are groomed, they are not as good as the best (two were quite good actually), but they are not screaming "delete me please". Kuvaszf (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I think there have been some problems with the Wikipedia servers/caching (or whatever the correct term is) lately and this may have contributed to the timing errors and then been compounded by Kavaszf's inexperience of the system. (I don't mean that in a bad way, Kazaszf, as we all had to learn and I'm still learning Wikipedia ways too). It is not like Hafspajen to be unwelcoming to new editors - usually quite the opposite - and he has a good understanding of dogs and does great work with images in articles.

What I suggest is that Kuvaszf uploads some images that s(he) thinks are appropriate and includes or links them here on the talk page so discussion can take place. As I said before, many breeds have vast differences in 'type' - look at the massive variation between working gundogs and show gundogs, they are sometimes like different breeds (I won't mention Bulldogs, Hafspajen!). It's not Wikipedia's task to decide which is the right or wrong type but it may be necessary to include the two different 'types' with an explanation? But let's wait until we see other images and then discuss it? SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:57, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Sure. But I don't see how we are supose to go against ACK standards and CKC standards. CKC sais: Some coats have long, loose waves, some have smaller, tighter waves. We go then to the AKC description of the coat: The coat ranges from quite wavy to straight. Wikipedia is not a "forum". Wikipedia is not the chat page of any interest group. We are not here to change standards. Talk pages are not here for Lobbying, and should not be used as a forum for arguing agains ACK and CKC standards. If this is the ACK standard than that's it, and your idea about short curly coat is only an opinion, as I said before. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. We can include some short wavy coated dog pictures but we can not remove all of them and replace them with others, since the AKC description of the coat is The coat ranges from quite wavy to straight. We are here to keep to the standard not change the standard, like many editors in too many dog articles seems to think this, from time to time. Hafspajen (talk) 10:31, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Who wants to go against CKC? Who wants curly coats? You are changing my words. CKC is right! Coat is always wavy, some more than others - it depends on each dog and even more on the weather (waves are tighter in cold weather). But ALWAYS wavy. Not curly and not straight. Curly and wavy is not the same, curly like a poodle is an eliminating fault (but I never saw a kuvasz like that)! I insist there is no "type" of kuvasz with straight hair. Why don't you take your time and ask the clubs if there is a straight hair type since you absolutely don't want to believe in what I say? I gave 3 names of clubs already. There might be a few that have straight hair and the judges don't notice because of the grooming (although you usually can notice because of the texture), but there is not a "type" like the maremma has one for show and one for work, like the dobermann has one in Europe and one in the USA, like the great dane has one in Europe and one in the USA, like the golden retriever has one in England and one in the USA, like the german shepherd has one for work and another for show etc. If you ask the breeder of this strange dog if it's from another type of kuvasz than the world winner, I am sure he will be very offended!! There is only one type of kuvasz, even the ones for working in farms are the same! It's not because one standard tolerates one thing (which is an eliminating fault in the country of origin and almost everywhere) that this thing should be there representing the breed! And the coat is only one thing, don't know why you decided to ignore the main thing, the head. Again: "the Kuvasz can mainly be distinguished from other breeds by his head shape". And then you have a dog with a great pyrenees head? As I said if Wikipedia was using an over groomed AKC dog that seem to have straight hair but has an ok head, I wouldn't be here trying to change it.

SagaciousPhil, of course I was completely inexperienced, don't worry. And I still am, but slowly improving thanks to your help and pacience. I sent the links to many pictures, including to the ones I was planning to upload (after asking the breeder if I could and if he took the pictures himself). I am not a friend of this breeder so I don't feel like asking him for pictures to use on Wikipedia and then maybe not be allowed by the editors to use them - even if his dog is the World Winner 2013 and even if there is no type of kuvasz with straight hair some here prefer to use a great pyrenees looking dog to represent the kuvasz. And it's very sad that he cannot admit someone knows more than him about one breed, so he cannot believe in what I say (must be a lobby!) and cannot ask the club kuvasz fanciers of america because of course the club probably does not know as much as him. He also changes my words, ignore parts of what I write... I feel I am hitting my head against the wall. Kuvaszf (talk) 17:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I went to the website of the breeder of the weird dog, they have imported a female from Hungary with wavy hair, correct eyes, correct stop and ears... http://www.kuvaszprince.com.br/caes/detalhes/dajka/28 They also have a picture of two really nice russian kuvasz, I think they have imported one of them: http://www.kuvaszprince.com.br/noticias/ler/a_criao_russa_shermemory_chega_ao_brasil/2 Most have problems seeing the faults of their own dogs, so I am sure they think the weird dog is a good dog and they will be very offended if you ask if that dog is a different type of kuvasz. But they are clearly NOT trying to breed a different type than the hungarian, quite the opposite, they seem to be trying to get there importing typical dogs. Kuvaszf (talk) 18:38, 7 January 2014 (UTC)