Talk:Yoruba people

History section

This should be a summary of the main article - it should never differ from it. I've posted the text below to Talk:History of the Yoruba people:

Dierk Lange thinks they came from the Near East.[1].

Others disagree, eg arguing that there is no homogenous group of Yoruba and that different groups came at different times from a variety of places.[2] Movements, borders, and identities in Africa."The different versions ot the migration stories of northern Yoruba peo- ple can be interpreted as an indication of distinct phases of migration from different areas and at different periods, a long history of cohabitation, and the bonds of domination, conquest, and exploitation during the nineteenth century."

Another perspective is offered in The transformation of Nigeria: essays in honor of Toyin Falola[3]:

"An in-depth account of the origin of the Yorubas is a complex task that is beyond the scope of this chapter, for such an undertaking must examine various sources of information, such as oral and written history, myths, folk tales, legends, customs, traditional practices, norms, religion, and art. The need for a multiple approach is based on the fact that early Yoruba history is not available in a chronological body of literature. However, historians have focused on two major ac- counts of the origin of the Yoruba people. The first account entails several versions of a creation story. The Yorubas believe that they are descendants of one common ancestor, Oduduwa, who supposedly descended from heaven with a chain, bearing some earth, palm kernels, and a cock. He landed in Ife where these items were used to establish the earth and its agricultural resources.

The second account is the migration paradigm. Saburi Biobaku posits that the Yoruba people migrated from the area around Egypt in North Africa around 600 A.D. Other prominent Yoruba historians like Ade Obayemi, J. A. Atanda, and I. A. Akinjogbin have suggested that the Yorubas migrated between 500 A.D. and 1,000 A.D.,1 from the Hausa-Fulani area of the Niger-Benue confluence, a region that is much closer to the current location of the Yoruba kingdoms. This theory is often supported by similarities in physical characteristics shared by both Yoruba and Fulani peoples, such as facial marks. Various accounts of Yoruba origins are still accepted by many people." Dougweller (talk) 12:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Why does the material from Dierk Lange persist in the article—unchallenged and in the opening section? It's clearly inaccurate, outdated material that does not need to be included in the entry in any form. If it's a widely held misunderstanding, then, yes, it should be summarized and refuted. It should not be presented as one of multiple, equally plausible scholarly views ("some say this"; "others say this").

I don't know why the author has not acted on the previous suggestions for revision (which provide good material, but give too much credence to Lange's theory). If the author is unwilling to correct the error, I will undertake to do it. KC 20:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

Do we really need this many people in the infobox? Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

• I really do wonder myself. It makes the infobox look so untidy!--Jamie Tubers (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Fixed duplicate alt parameters

I fixed the duplicate alt parameters, and caption misalignment in the image galleries by switching to <gallery>...</gallery>. let me know if there are any fundamental problems. Frietjes (talk) 22:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Genetics for ethnic groups RfC

For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. This has been set up to determine the appropriateness of sections such as the "genetics" section in this article. I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. --Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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"Awon Omo Yoruba" is inappropriate?

@Bappah: can you please explain why "Awon Omo Yoruba" is less appropriate. Basically, in everyday conversations, movies, music, social media, people refer to a yoruba person as "Omo Yoruba" (the singular version), not "Iran Yoruba". Based on WP:COMMONNAME, "Omo Yoruba" is easily the common native title for a yoruba person. How come it is being written as "less appropriate"? Any source to back that up?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 22:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

@Jamie Tubers:

Not Inappropriate, but rather Less appropriate term for Yoruba people , in comparison to/or with "Iran people" Commoner / colloquial speech can be quite different in many ways from more appropriate terminologies.

If a comparison were to be done. Awon is the pluralizing article, Omo (Child or children of), Yoruba (The people) - Literally "The children of Yoruba" which was the exact direct transliteration earlier defined. Iran Yoruba - (Yoruba people/race/lineage). Direct translation. Awon omo Yoruba thus comes off as a compound term trying as best as possible to directly match the idea behind the phrase 'Yoruba people". Yorubas are simply Yoruba, or Awon Yoruba (The Yorubas)

In this case, the earlier term can't be said to be Inappropriate or Wrong, but rather less appropriate than the latter. Iran Yoruba (Yoruba people) or Awon Yoruba (The Yorubas)

On a side note, the Yoruba are already a People, so I don't find it necessary adding "People" to the term unless it is being done in a context to differentiate it from the language. In this case, it isn't. So Yoruba or Yorubas would be best fit. Akin to Americans (rather than American People) or Canadians rather than (Canadian people). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bappah (talk • contribs)

• You still haven't answered the question. When you say something is "less appriopriate", it means that its usage for the subject being discussed can be considered wrong or offensive in certain scenarios. The grammatical correctness is a different discussion all together, and most times, it is infact irrelevant to Wikipedia's usage of a term. How is using "Awon Omo Yoruba", for a Yoruba person, less appropriate? Does a yoruba person get referred to mostly as "Omo Yoruba" or not?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 13:02, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

British or American English

I assume Nigeria and other English-speaking Yoruba areas would use British spellings. Is that correct? If so, we should put a hatnote saying the British spellings are preferred, so that we don't get an endless stream of edits bickering over spelling issues. Aristophanes68 (talk) 19:08, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

• Actually, there is a Nigerian variation, which tends to have some spellings conforming with British spellings, and some others, with American spellings. From what I have seen since I started following the article, that's the major variation being used by contributors, so I'll add a hatnote to reflect that.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 21:23, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks! Aristophanes68 (talk) 21:50, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Added discussion disappeared

Hello there Just added discussion on here but it disappeared are you reviewing or should I add another on? Ppdallo (talk) 17:14, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

ETYMOLOGY SECTION

The name "Yoruba" is derived from the Hausa word "Ya raba" or "Yaraba" and officially pronounced to Clapperton by Sultan Muhammad Bello and also in his ethnography written in the 1800's and not NO Ahmed Baba of Songhai. What does Ahmed Baba know about the Yoruba people and a Hausa word "Ya raba"??????! ANYBODY WANNA DISCUSS THIS?Ppdallo (talk) 14:48, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Also, please stop trying to change history. The Word Yoruba is originally Hausa and has no linguistic relationship with the Yoruba language. It is Hausa and has meaning in Hausa language whereas the Yoruba have no meaning for that word. The word Larabawa is originally Arabic and has meaning in Arabic whereas it doesn't have in Hausa language except for what it means in Arabic. The word Kanawa is Hausa and has meaning in the Hausa language. THEREFORE WITHOUT THAT HAUSA WORD THERE WOULD NEVER BE A YORUBA TRIBE AS WE KNOW IT TODAY. THEREFORE THANK HAUSA PEOPLE FOR THAT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ppdallo (talk • contribs) 15:31, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Can you clarify what your grievance is? Before your first edit to the article, it already said the word came from Hausa. It said that before your edits and it says that after your edits. Your last two sentences make no sense. A people exists regardless of what other peoples call it. Largoplazo (talk) 17:39, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I have no grievance what so ever. Before my first edit to this section there was an unverifiable allusion to Ahmad Baba of Songhai as the coiner of the word Yoruba thereby completely erasing the vital contributions of both Muhammadu Bello and Clapperton. I opened a discussion on this talk page as you can see for yourself above exactly one year now with no one coming forward to discuss with me. I then proceeded with my verifiable edit and almost immediately afterwards got blocked temporarily for that fully referenced edit/contributions by Muhammadu Bello and Coppertone. Now precicely one year later someone (Oramfe) comes up and wants to remove Muhammadu Bello's contribution (which is fully backed up with verifiable reference)and even cast doubt (as in it was said)on Hausa origin of the name. I think Oramfe is the the Vandal here and not me.

On your second comment, yes a people exist regardless of its name but not as a group with a wider ethnic identity as the Yorubas do today.Ppdallo (talk) 18:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Stop the vandalism, please.

Hello Aabiolat please stop vandalising this page by adjusting to false population figures and citing unverifiable references. It is quite intriguing as to why you choose to erase verifiable references and replace it with unverifiable ones. Stop the VANDALISM. pls.Ppdallo (talk) 15:11, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Art: Ori Inu and Ori Ode

I really like all the information used in the art section. I was just curious if the concept of Ori Inu and Ori Ode was something worth mentioning. The idea of the inner head and the outer head was something we learned about the head art in my class, but I didn't see any mention of this throughout the art section. Nicole Lenz (talk) 01:04, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Etymology and Early Usage of the word Yoruba as an ethnic description

As an ethnic description, the word "Yoruba" or initially as "Yarabawa" was originally in reference to the Oyo Empire whose capital city lay close to the banks of the Niger river to the south of Nupe and east of Borgu, and was said to be a Hausa exonym for the Oyo people as noted by Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander. It would appear that the term had taken root and become accepted among the Oyo people themselves. The subsequent extension of the term to all speakers of dialects related to the language of the Oyo (which is a dialect within North-Western Yoruba) dates to the second half of the 19th century, and was due to the socio-linguistic influence of Bishop Samuel Ajayi Crowther, the first Anglican bishop in Nigeria. Crowther who was himself an Oyo Yoruba compiled the first Yoruba dictionary as well as introducing a standard for Yoruba orthography, and it was his adoption and proliferation of the term that eventually cemented the use of the term as an umbrella reference into the modern era, at the expense of all the other popular term that were used in that era for the collectivity of Yoruba people in early precolonial and colonial literature, among which were; Anago/Nago, Olukumi / Luk(c)umi and Aku/Oku. The alternative names Akú and Okú, are exonyms derived from the first words of Yoruba personal greetings (such as; A(o) kú òwúrọ? "good morning", A(o) kú alẹ? "good evening") has survived in certain parts of their diaspora as a self-descriptive, especially in Sierra Leone and The Gambia.

As an ethnic description, the word "Yoruba" (or more correctly, "Ya raba") was originally in reference to the Oyo Empire and is the usual Hausa name for Oyo people as noted by Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander. It was therefore popularized by Hausa usage and ethnography written in Ajami during the 19th century by Sultan Muhammad Bello. The extension of the term to all speakers of dialects related to the language of the Oyo (in modern terminology North-West Yoruba) dates to the second half of the 19th century. It is due to the influence of Bishop Samuel Ajayi Crowther, the first Anglican bishop in Nigeria. Crowther was himself an Oyo Yoruba and compiled the first Yoruba dictionary as well as introducing a standard for Yoruba orthography. The alternative name Akú, apparently an exonym derived from the first words of Yoruba greetings (such as Ẹ kú àárọ? "good morning", Ẹ kú alẹ? "good evening") has survived in certain parts of their diaspora as a self-descriptive, especially in Sierra Leone.

Any body reading these two versions would not fail to realize that the older version is more precise and devoid of unnecessary words WHEREAS the new version is egotistic, unnecessarily lengthy, flowery and deliberate falsification of history by removing Muhammadu Bello's contribution while maintaining that of Clapperton and Ajayi Crowther. Also it shoud be noted that the area known today as Yoruba land was never united in etnicity or a particular language but rather various ethnic groupings that spoke and up till today speak different but related langauges. eg people of Kabba, Ijebu, Egba, ekiti,etc, etc. even according to cited reference no.3 the opposition to the use of the name Yoruba, which was already popularized by Hausa usage among all Oyo people and its neighbors, (during a discussion by freed returnee slaves-Christian missionaries that landed in Sierra Leone and had never been to Yoruba land) was in favor of Aku, which as i have told Oramfe, was also of Hausa origin. Please DISCUSS Ppdallo (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Please also note what Peter Cohen wrote in his article, Orisha Journeys as quoted: “The concept of a single “Yorùbá” people and its baptism with the Hausa term for the inhabitants of Òyó was largely the work of liberated captives and their children returning from Sierra Leone, particularly as Protestant missionaries. The terms by which the descendants of Yorùbá-speakers are known today in the New World – “Nagô” in Brazil, “Nago” in Haiti and Jamaica, “Lucumí” in Cuba, “Akú” in Sierra Leone – emerged as meaningful categories in the context of enslavement and exile.”

This clarifies the fact that Samuel Ajayi Crowther and his colleagues did not know the area known today as Yorubaland enough to choose a name for the Yoruba except what their Hausa neighbors have already coined and popularized both inside Oyo itself and among its neighbors, which he learnt through Hugh Clapperton's book and who in turn officially learnt it from Muhammadu Bello. Therefore it would be a gross distortion of Yoruba history if Muhammadu Bello's name and contribution is expunged from the origin of their name, while retaining the contribution of even less important contributor like ajayi Crowther.Ppdallo (talk) 18:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

It should also be noted that the word "exonym" as defined by wikipedia as "An exonym or xenonym is an external name for a geographical place, a group of people, an individual person, or a language or dialect. It is a common name used only outside the place, group, or linguistic community in question." therefore its usage by Oramfe in his edit is misplaced as even he himself had noted that the name was accepted by the Oyo people themselves

Nice try, User:Oramfe!

1. Like i told you before, Gobir, Katsina, Adar etc were all names of towns and the affixed "wa" connotes that they come from those towns and they all identify as Hausa throughout their history. unlike Ijebu, Badagary, Egba, Igbomina, Ekiti, Okun etc, which are all individual tribes with different languages coming under the artificial umbrella called "Yoruba"

2. Ajayi crowther was not an adult but only twelve years old and illiterate when he was captured into slavery. he was educated by European missionaries who got their knowledge of African peoples through their explorers such as Hugh Clapperton. So even as the name "Yoruba" was in use among the Oyo themselves, he couldn't have known much about their neighbors to the south much less see the need to extend the name Yoruba over them.

3. Bello did not create the name "Yaraba" but Hausa traders and explorers (the latter we call them Falake as plural or falke as singular). His role here is in using the name in his Ajami writings (copies of which, by the way, were already in the hands of the British even before they decided to send explorers into Africa) and also when he officially pronounced it to Clapperton when he asked him. Please let sleeping dogs lay. Most names of groups of people or nationalities do not have meaning. "Hausa" has no meaning in the Hausa language, so is "English" in the English language, or Igbo in "Igbo" language etc. But incidentally, "Ya raba" "Yaraba" or the corrupted version "Yoruba" has a serious meaning in the Hausa language. It connotes the "divisive" nature of the Oyo people. literally, "ya raba" means "He divides".

4. In the case of similarity between Baruba and Yoruba, i honestly wish you good luck in your efforts to research this issue but be informed that the name "Baruba" has its roots in the name of their land which is Borgu/Borugu and is actually of Hausa coinage and its similitude is just like that of the people of Borno/Boruno whom the Hausa call "Bareba-ri.

5. On referring to term "Yoruba" as an "Exonym" which i call a misplacement in your edit, i would like to call your attention to the fact that the British gave us the name "Nigeria" which we have accepted and is in use among us today so its not an exonym but a name given to us by our colonial masters. Ppdallo (talk) 07:59, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Edit protected

Replace

• <ref>{{cite journal|publisher=African Research Review|author=Adeshina Yusuf Raji|author2=P.F. Adebayo|url=http://afrrevjo.net/journals/multidiscipline/Vol_3_no_2_art_11_Adesina%20&%20Adebayo.pdf|volume=3|number=2|year=2009|archivedate=4 March 2016|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304080637/http://afrrevjo.net/journals/multidiscipline/Vol_3_no_2_art_11_Adesina%20%26%20Adebayo.pdf|website=African Journals Online|title=Yoruba Traders in Cote D'Ivoire: A Study of the Role Migrant Settlers in the Process of Economic Relations in West Africa|pages=134–147|journal=|access-date=19 November 2019|url-status=dead}}</ref>

with

• {{cn}}

Because African Research Review is a predatory journal and should not be cited on Wikipedia. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:49, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done There is another one in the Traditional art and architecture section — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Etymology

Ordinarily, this discussion shouldn't even be as drawn out as you are making it, but of course let us discuss all the intricacies and nitty-gritties of the subject at hand while forgoing of all assumptions and made up fables. Yes, the concept of "Yoruba people" as a monolithic social/ethnic entity was an experience that first took hold in the diaspora of the Atlantic world and was largely due to the experience of Yoruba slaves who saw their far more mutual commonalities with one another as against the backdrop of being co-existent with other African people with whom they shared far less in common than their fellow Yorubas. You only seem to be supporting everything I said before as Crowther is himself a Yoruba slave returnee by way of Sierra Leone and was a missionary. Of course they were also aware that they were people of the same stock even back in their own ethnic homeland back in Nigeria and Benin but the in-fighting and constant inter clan warfare of the time did not allow them to coalesce successfully. This is not different from the experience of most other African ethnic group of the period, including the Hausa group which you hail from who were either politically Gobirawa, Kanawa, Adarawa, Katsinawa, E.t.c before the Jihad.

Secondly; Crowther and SOME of his other colleagues clearly knew what Yoruba was and was very conversant with the area known today as "Yorubaland" since he (as well as some others) were already adults who were cognitively and developmentally aware before they were captured from their various village in the interior of Oyo (in the case of Ajayi) as well as other places such as Ijesha, Awori (Otta), Ilorin, Ogbomosho, Badagry and so forth. Crowther himself knew what Yoruba was, since it was already in use amongst the Oyos themselves before he became a victim of the transatlantic slave trade. He did not learn from Hugh clapperton's book or that of any other. The problem here is that you are assuming a lot of things that you are not very well informed about. Some of the indentured servants (not slaves) who voluntarily went into the diaspora in the mid 1800s took the name 'Yoruba' with them, although at this point they were in the minority since slavery was already officially abolished in a lot of places, as such the name did not take hold unlike the others like Lukumi and Nago.

Thirdly, Muhammad Bello himself can not be credited with the creation of the term 'Yoruba' , 'Yaraba', "Yariba', Yarabawa" or the term as it appears in any of its previous or current forms. Did he use it any of his ajami writings to describe the Oyos? Yes he did. Were Yorubas aware of his writings in Ajami? Probably or not. But did he create the term? Most definitely not. And that is why the term is rightfully referenced back to the Hausas and the Hausa Language and not Bello. Even this is still contestable and I am doing some serious research work at right now into how that term came about for the Oyos because the truth is is that is does not have any specific meaning in Hausa language, However since the Yorubas themselves call the Borgu people Baruba, it would only make more parallel sense that the Oyos who were their neighbors were the Yoruba. But since I have no online sources to back up this particular claim as of yet, I would leave that out of the plane of discourse (for now).

Yes an exonym is a name that has its source in an external out-group source. Either for a place, a people or a culture as against the opposite terminology 'Endonym' which is a name whose origin is within the group in question. Baruba/Bariba is a Yoruba exonym for Baatonum/Borgu people, it has stuck into the modern era.. Tapa is a Yoruba exonym for Nupe people. Gambari is a Yoruba exonym for Hausas. Ado is a Yoruba exonym for Binis.... And until I a conclude my research work on whether the term 'Yoruba' actually does have its roots from within the Hausas there is no other word to describe it for now other than an 'Exonym', it is not misplaced usage. User:Oramfe (talk) , 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Nice try, User:Oramfe!

1. Like i told you before, Gobir, Katsina, Adar etc were all names of towns and the affixed "wa" connotes that they come from those towns and they all identify as Hausa throughout their history. unlike Ijebu, Badagary, Egba, Igbomina, Ekiti, Okun etc, which are all individual tribes with different languages coming under the artificial umbrella called "Yoruba"

2. Ajayi crowther was not an adult but only twelve years old and illiterate when he was captured into slavery. he was educated by European missionaries who got their knowledge of African peoples through their explorers such as Hugh Clapperton. So even as the name "Yoruba" was in use among the Oyo themselves, he couldn't have known much about their neighbors to the south much less see the need to extend the name Yoruba over them.

3. Bello did not create the name "Yaraba" but Hausa traders and explorers (the latter we call them Falake as plural or falke as singular). His role here is in using the name in his Ajami writings (copies of which, by the way, were already in the hands of the British even before they decided to send explorers into Africa) and also when he officially pronounced it to Clapperton when he asked him. Please let sleeping dogs lay. Most names of groups of people or nationalities do not have meaning. "Hausa" has no meaning in the Hausa language, so is "English" in the English language, or Igbo in "Igbo" language etc. But incidentally, "Ya raba" "Yaraba" or the corrupted version "Yoruba" has a serious meaning in the Hausa language. It connotes the "divisive" nature of the Oyo people. literally, "ya raba" means "He divides".

4. In the case of similarity between Baruba and Yoruba, i honestly wish you good luck in your efforts to research this issue but be informed that the name "Baruba" has its roots in the name of their land which is Borgu/Borugu and is actually of Hausa coinage and its similitude is just like that of the people of Borno/Boruno whom the Hausa call "Bareba-ri.

5. On referring to term "Yoruba" as an "Exonym" which i call a misplacement in your edit, i would like to call your attention to the fact that the British gave us the name "Nigeria" which we have accepted and is in use among us today so its not an exonym but a name given to us by our colonial masters. Ppdallo (talk) 08:01, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, my final words to you in this discourse, User:Oramfe are the following:

1. The name Ya raba/yaraba/Yoruba is originally Hausa and was locally popularized by Hausa usage.

2. Muhammadu Bello had already propagated the name Yaraba/Yoruba throughout much of literate Africa, Asia and Europe through his usage of it in his Ajami writings decades before Ajayi crowther was even born. Therefore Muhammadu Bello deserve as much credit as Ajayi Crowther, if not more.

3. The area today known as Yrubaland comprises many tribes that are in many ways distinct from each other throughout their history, that have found commonality under the umbrella of "Yoruba".

4. The word 'exonym" as used by you in your edit is a misnomer. Please if you still do not understand this just look up the meaning and application of the word "exonym".

5. Your edit is flowery, egotistic, unnecessarily lengthy and calculated to suppress historical facts.Ppdallo (talk) 08:07, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Dialect vs Language (as it relates to Yoruba)

The various Yoruba speech forms (Kabba/Owe, Ijebu, Ijesha, Ekiti, Ibolo, Oyo, Egba E.tc) are not different languages or groups of 'related languages' but dialect of the same language. That is not up for discussion. Aku is not of Hausa origin. There are two forms of that term Aku and Oku, and none of them have Hausa origin whatsoever. You don't speak Yoruba do you? I on the other hand speak Yoruba, Fulfulde and not so perfect Hausa. Aku is the beginning of greetings in Yoruba.. That a word has a meaning in one language which you speak does not mean it comes from that language or mean the same thing in the other language as in the one you know of. I could as well say Aku is of Fulani origin because we greet each other 'Aku' and the responder says 'Usse'. That even makes more sense. But it is not. Honestly a lot of the things you say would not make as much sense to yourself if you back-projected it to your own ethnic group and then re-examine it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oramfe (talk • contribs) 13:25, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

In Kabba alone there are many coexisting and mutually unintelligible languages within less than a mile of each other. So what are you talking about? A Badagary man right here with me is telling me not mind you, that I should tell you he is not Yoruba.Ppdallo (talk) 08:06, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Terrible infobox

The countries that are part of ECOWAS, Volta-Niger, and Yorubaland are already on the list of regions, so it makes no sense to include those entities on the list. In addition, Volta-Niger isn't a geographic region but a linguistic family. Spanish and Portuguese aren't spoken by the native Yoruba people, so they should be removed from the list of languages (and perhaps also English and French). The Yoruba people who were transported to the Americas have been creolized with other cultures, races, and ethnic groups - so it is questionable to suggest that their Spanish and Portuguese-speaking descendants are the same ethnicity as the Yoruba of West Africa. Jaqoc (talk) 00:05, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Islam in Yoruba land

Hello everyone. Having done a lot of research on West African History from 1000 AD to present day i have discovered that the facts on how Islam was introduced to Yoruba land is grossly distorted and would like to help put the records straight so Wikipedia can be a reliable source of accurate information.Ppdallo (talk) 07:55, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

There are traitors of yorubas revising and rubbishing our history, wikipedia as a source of info is shit.

Degree of Presence of The Yoruba and 'Yoruba derived' groups in Nigeria, Benin & Togo at Sub-national levels

Hello Oramfe, lets discuss.Ppdallo (talk) 05:56, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo And what exactly is your issue with the map and the attached referene again? Oramfe (talk)

Oramfe Before we begin this discussion i would like to have a clear understanding of what this map means and its area of coverage, as i can see it is as far as Norhern Benin and southern Burkina Fasso and Niger Republic. Are "Yoruba" indigenous to those areas on the map aside from where you marked as predominant? If so at what period in "Yoruba" history did they migrate to those places. If it is by conquest, when did the "Yoruba" conquered those areas? Ppdallo (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe please lets keep to our original discussion about the map. I will attend to your new section of "Yorubas of Northern Benin" soon enough. Actually it is even more interesting. You actually did not answer my questions. Please read carefully again and see if you can answer any of the questions. If you cannot answer any of it then i would like to draw your attention to the fact that the references you cited do not support your map. If you look at the Joshua project map it says "People cluster" which is purely from their view point of Evangelisation and not based on any ethnolinguistic studies. It is also highly ambiguous going by the orange and green dots spread as far as Senegal. This map extends beyond Niger and Kebbi states. About a quarter of the western borderline of Kebbi state is the Northern most reaches of Benin Republic.

My conclusion: 1. your map is not supported by any of your cited references. 2. Physically it extends beyond the northernmost reaches of Benin Republic. 3. Your map is a fantasy and a DUBIOUS ASSUMPTION. 4. This map is also very dangerous because it signifies "Yoruba" intentions for possible future territorial expansion since these areas on the map are clearly not "Yoruba" land. Ppdallo (talk) 06:48, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

---

Again... My reply to you.

• The map is about SUB-NATIONAL Divisions.. In other words. States, Provinces, Departments, Cantons Etc.

Nigeria has 36 states... Benin has 12 departments.

• In Nigeria.. Yorubas predominate in 6 Southwestern states, and 7 with additional minorities (Kwara)

Are a joint majority in Kogi (20%).. the other 80% being Ebira, Igala, Kakanda (Nupe), Bassa-Komo, Ogori, Bassa-Nge and idoma.

• In Benin ;Yorubas predominate in 2 of their 12 departments and are found as indigenous minorities to varying degrees in a further 7. Meaning they can be found as founder communities in 9 of Benin's 12 departments.

Of those 7, three are in Northern Benin (Donga, Borgu and Alibori)

° Now.... the fact that Alibori shares a border with Kebbi state NG near Gaya or with Niger through the same entrepot as well as at Malanville is not the point. I already told you there are Indigenous Yoruba communities with ancient ties to Oyo therein the department.... And for centuries. To be honest, your argument is making no sense. As a matter of fact, your original premise for removing that map has changed... You sound more like someone who does not WANT TO accept the facts than someone who genuinely wants to know for the sake of veracity

• Now...Going to the Joshua project map... If you see Yorubas in far flung locales like Senegal, Ivory Coast or Gambia, it just depicts the register of Diaspora Yoruba communities living there and nothing else. Same way Hausas communities are in Ivory Coast, Congo and Gabon... Honestly, it isn't even that complicated. It also shows Yorubas in USA, UK, and Italy. I don't understand your point... The key word here is INDIGENOUS.

° To visualize better the actual spread of Yorubas (And the other ethnolinguistic groups) in Benin, You should check this out:

- http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427108740_e3c235e912_b.jpg

• That particular breakdown of the indigenous spread of Yoruboid people is not particular to Joshua project... Intact, it wasn't created by JP or peoplegroups.org.. it was done by Ethnologue and they adapted it.

• In Benin (Which you seem to know very little about) from your remarks. The Yoruba represent the third largest ethnic population in the commune of Kandi and environs, the capital & largest agglomeration in Alibori. According to the national census, they represent 17.2% of the population just after the Fulas and the Baribas. Are you suggesting that an ethnic group of this proportion should not be depicted on the map simply because "they are too far north" for your liking?

- https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426849419_9a14361db6_b.jpg

• If a map showing the locales where Yorubas can be indigenously found graded along a color scheme in Nigeria, Benin and Togo is considered "Dangerous" by you, then I indeed wonder how you think. Facts don't pander to emotions....

• And lastly, I am reiterating to You that the map is about THE INDIGENOUS PRESENCE OF YORUBAS in NG BN and TG at the level of Subnational divisions. It isn't a map of Yorubaland. That is a different although related subject matter.

° Please, I do not want to engage in a back and forth just for the sake of it. ... continue placing Yoruba in quotes that is your prerogative.

Oramfe (talk)12:12, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Please do not waste too much breath on this issue. Your second map does not even indicate Yoruba in Northern Benin apart from the fact that it is also unverifiable. Trying to claim Yoruba presence in Northern Benin just because Mokole(who have a distinct name and identity) are clustered with Yoruba for Evangelisation purposes by Joshua Project will not work here. It is just like claiming Yoruba presence inside Nupeland or Borgu just because they are related to Yoruba. THESE claims should be in the info box and you have made ample use of that. The fact still remains that the map is unverifiable and overshoots both Yoruba and Benin Republic territories and therefore should be expunged from Yoruba page. I will take up the next topic you brought up and will then see what agreement we can come to on this issue, but quite honestly you are taking this issue of "Yoruboid" presence across countries too far. Remember, there was never a tribe called Yoruba except the Oyos before the latter half of the 19th centuary. How then do you go about attaching "Yoruba" to other distinct ethnic groups in other distant places based on unverifiable sources? Even those Mokole in your video look and dress Hausa. Their musical instruments is Hausa as well and not Yoruba. Even the name of one of them is Hausa.Ppdallo (talk) 14:42, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

---

Ppdallo At this point, I honestly do not think you are following up with the things I am asking you to do in order to understand what you are seeing. I will try and address the issues you have raised one after the other.

- Firstly, if you indeed watched the video and understand French, you would have heard them say their origin traces back to Oyo in Nigeria

- Secondly, the map is not "overshooting" Beninese territory by any means.

- Thirdly: Mokoles are not "Yorubas for evangelization" purposes. They are Yorubas by virtue of language and history... as told by themselves and as recognized by reknowned body of ethnographic literature as well as field studies on the subject matter.

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426150277_718c1f01ca_b.jpg

- Fourthly: Unless you think you know more on the issue than the government of Benin, your revisionisms won't fly.

https://international.ipums.org/international-action/variables/LANGBJ#codes_section

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426923721_351f10e077_h.jpg

- Fifthly: Yorubas don't have indigenous settlements nor presence in Nupe land ... Why would it be "claimed"?. As for Baribas, there is a Yoruba speaking exclave in the commune of Kandi in the department of Alibori who constitute over 17% of the population there and have their traditional lands as indigenes. If it was about coloring all places where Yorubas have a siginificant presence, then the FCT Abuja Territory would have been colored in.

- Sixthly: saying the Mokoles in the video 'look' and 'dress' Hausa is your subjective opinion. You can't understand their language, have no idea who they are nor what their history is. Hausas are not even found as an indigenous community in Benin so how would their apparels looking similar to a wider 'sudanian' west African mode of dressing negate or take away from who they are? There were never many things before the 19th century and that is exactly why history is not static. Even if we were to both assume you are right (which you are actually not), are you the one to "reclassify" them as whatever you wish?

- Overall, you still haven't proven the map is dubious other than the fact that you can't accept it for what it is, and for whatever reasons best known to you.

Oramfe (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2021 (UTC) Oramfe That map is unverifiable and has the potential to incite territorial expansionism and future wars. The two references you cited do not support your claim. Yoruba derived groups do not mean they speak Yoruba or practice Yoruba culture or even bear Yoruba names. The Gwandara of Nasarawa state are Hausa derived group but they are not Hausa; No any potential Hausa expansionist would start drawing contiguous map from Hausa proper right into Gwandara land just to indicate "Hausa presence". See you in the next section Ppdallo (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

---

Ppdallo - What the Hausas chose to do is none of my concern really especially if you provide references and notations consistent with wiki standards. If you want to show a map depicting the indigenous presence of the Hausa-Gwandara group in Nigerian states and in Niger, that is up to you. Good luck! No one will come there to engage in a fruitless back and forth with you since we all know Gwandaras are Hausas (more or less) and even more so since their history, origin and migration traces directly back to one of the original Hausa city states... They might have cultural differences such as masquerades and other things and even differences in overall religious composition (being more christian) compared to the Hausas but their history and origin remains sacrosanct as Hausa emigres. But if of course you include them as a part of Hausaland of course that could be problematic....

If you include Kaduna as one of the states where the Hausas are one of the indigenous majorities, is that in any way implying that they are the only ethnic groups there? Your problem is that you are not viewing the map for what it is but rather a preconceived notion of what you think it is supposed to mean. Not my (or anyone else's) problem.

-All my references very well support my claim and in-fact factual I can always provide even more if need be.

• Secondly, opinions are not the reason Wikipedia exists but facts. Reservations such as "incite territorial expansionism and future wars" is your idea and yours alone. I have never heard of a wikipedia article inciting a war anywhere. The neighbours of the Yorubas in Northern Benin have no problem with their presence. Maybe we can tell the Fulanis in Yobe state that they wouldn't be included in a demographic exercise of states where Fulanis can be found because their original homeland is in Senegal thousands of Kms away? Or can we deny the Hausa presence in Tilliabery region of niger because that particular region is dominated by the Zarma-Songhai-Dendi Ethnic group? Ridiculous isn't it? Those are the kind of arguments you are making here.

(talk) 09:28, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Yorubas of Northern Benin

• Firstly, The map in no way extends into Burkina Faso... Check Google earth, Apple maps, Open street maps or even Wikimapia (Basically any Atlas of the world) for cross referencing of West Africa's geographical divisions.

• Secondly, The map states clearly that it is a depiction of the INDIGENOUS presence of Yoruba and Yoruba derived groups in Nigeria, Benin and Togo.

For more background info on the subject matter, read up on the Yoruba people of Benin's Alibori region called the Mokole clan or Feeri, who number over 170,000 out of a total provincial populace of around 868,000 and you will understand how the shading in/coloring scheme applies there (the northernmost portion of the map).

For further reference on the geographical location of the Monkole domiciled in and around Kandi town check the links;

-https://www.peoplegroups.org/explore/GroupDetails.aspx?peid=12342

Check as well under the demographics section of Wikipedia's section on Benin's Alibori Department;

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alibori_Department

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokole_language_(Benin)

And if you do understand French (or use google translate) you can also check this out on the website of the Beninese government

-https://www.gouv.bj/actualite/956/destination-benin---kandi--carrefour-incontournable-dans-alibori/

And finally these videos:

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1AiZNXH1ME

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJjYa8KW-_M&t=310s As you can see the Mokole people are Yorubas who have elements of Bariba infusions in the culture.

• Thirdly, Several Yoruba villages are also situated in the Benin departments of Borgu and Donga (the two other coloured departments in northern Benin with the exception of Atakora) .... such as Bassila, Tchaourou, Papane, Aledjo, Partago, Manigri, Kikele, Onklou E.tc.

All the Beninese, Nigerian and Togolese departments are properly colored in; if only you would take the time to do some little ethnographic research before removing things outrightly.

Correspond for any further questions.

(talk) 23:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC) Ppdallo Oramfe (talk)

Oramfe Here we go! I have finally come to respect your enthusiasm for everything Yoruba (pardon my poor English) but please don't take it too far. Like i said earlier, "Yoruba derived groups" do not mean they speak Yoruba, bear Yoruba names or even practice Yoruba culture. This is attested to by one of the very videos (Histoire Des Mokolé) you cited to back up your claim. Just listen to the section of that video starting from 2:49 (2 minutes and 49 seconds)and it will be clear to you that the Mokole language is not Yoruba and does not even sound "Yoruba" (Haha, sorry i put Yoruba in quote!)These people are Yoruba derived group and you should therefore check the Yoruboid article on Wikipedia for proper understanding of what it means. Igala is Yoruboid but is distinct from Yoruba in language, culture and history just as Gwandara is "Hausoid" but distinct in language, history and culture. PLEASE THERE ARE NO YORUBA IN NORTHERN BENIN. Just check the Yoruboid article for a somewhat milder map of Yoruba presence in Benin and Nigeria as classified by Glottolog from Ethnologue. Your contiguous map of "indigenous Yoruba presence in Nigeria, Benin & Togo" reeks of wanton expansionism and can sow seeds of conflicts in future generations.Please take it down. WEST AFRICA SUFFERS FROM ENOUGH CONFLICTS, ALREADY.Ppdallo (talk) 10:10, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

---

− Ppdallo Nice try. − Do you know the difference between Igala-Yoruba relationship and the Mokole-Yoruba etc group? Let me break down a few things for you

• First - Mokoles migrated straight out of Yorubaland, Oyo to be precise. The migration history of Igala and its connection to Yorubaland remains vague or even outrightly unknown.

• Second - Igala is an independent branch of the Yoruboid family of languages, Mokole on the other hand is a dialect of Ede. (Ede Mokole). All Ede speech forms are just dialects of one another. This includes Mokole, Oyo, Ijesha, Ijebu, Ekiti and what have you.

• Thirdly the igalas do not and have never accepted to be of Yoruba stock, the Mokoles on the other hand gladly acknowledge their Oyo ancestral ties. They even attend meetings and congresses of all Yoruba people in Benin to meet common goals and resolutions.

• Fourthly -Why do I have to fast forward the video to go watch a part which you think confirms your own perceptions? The video even states clearly from start by the narrator that the Mokoles are of Yoruba provenance, and later confirmed by a village chieftain. From 1:40 you even hear clearly "Royoume d'Oyo)

• Anyways, I watched the video from 2:49 and how does that invalidate anything? He is speaking a Yoruba dialect... lol! He even confirmed their emigration from Nigeria a long time ago.

• Lastly, the Mokoles are at peace with their neighbours. Don't think you can ferment, brew or stir trouble where there is none because 'Oramfe' made a map Yoruba group and where they can be found on Wikipedia. On the map key, The Alibori department clearly labels the Yorubas there as a "Smaller but Visible Minority"

− Ciao! Oramfe (talk)

Oramfe That language is not Yoruba. They don't bear Yoruba names. Their music is not Yoruba nor even their cloth. I do not speak Yoruba but three of my Yoruba friends confirmed to me that language is not Yoruba. It would do well if you take that map down. It is expansionism. Ppdallo (talk) 11:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

---

Ppdallo lol.. weren't you the same guy who was told by your phantom Yoruba friends some months ago that certain Yoruba peopled clans were not Yoruba? I haven't forgotten that episode with you. And coming from a guy who claims that Yoruba is not an ethnic group or language, how would you know what a Yoruba dialect is supposed to sound like?

Mokoles of ALIBORI are Yoruba. They haven't rejected nor denied that identity but someone is here on wikipedia denying on their behalf. And YES they have borrowed culturally from Baribas but then which culture of the world hasn't? Your Hausa ethnic group has borrowed extensively from all its neighbours... That hasn't stopped them from being what they are. Your anti Yoruba biases will effect no maligning changes here on wiki henceforth .... at least not on Yoruba Wikipedia (Especially if based on warped opinions, biases or a general lack of in-depth understanding). I am here for the long haul ... why don't you outright claim them as Hausas so we can both be sure where you are headed? Oramfe (talk)

Oramfe Haha, take it easy mi friend. Hausa have not borrowed any culture from its neighbors and I quote "The Hausa cultural practices stand unique in Nigeria and have withstood the test of time due to strong traditions, cultural pride as well as an efficient precolonial native system of government. Consequently, and in spite of strong competition from western European culture as adopted by their southern Nigerian counterparts, have maintained a rich and peculiar mode of dressing, food, language, marriage system, education system, traditional architecture, sports, music and other forms of traditional entertainment." -Yes Badagry is not Yoruba and you know it. Mokole is not Yoruba even from their intonation (at least i know Yoruba intonation very well as a Nigerian)and yes i see two of them bearing Hausa names and none of them bearing Yoruba names. they play Hausa musical instruments and dress Hausa. So i can safely call them Hausoid :) _ Your "Yoruba presence map" is not supported by the references you provided.It is expansionist and it portends danger for future generations of West Africans. For the sake of consistency across Wikipedia articles and all the efforts we have put in this discussion and also the mutual respect that all editors are supposed to have for each other, please substitute it with that on the Yoruboid article. It is more neutral.Ppdallo (talk) 12:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe I repeat, there is no ethnicity, culture or language on this planet that has not borrowed or infused elements from the outside into itself. But hey! if that makes you feel better at night that Hausa language exists in isolation - good for you! Even though the so called Hausa culture as expressed today is just 'Islamic civilization of the muslim world with a few native tweaks' to most. In fact, original culture loss amongst the Hausa people has be utterly devastating // But hey Oga, this is not the Hausa people discussion page, so.... 'que sera sera'

• Secondly... What you see and call a qualification of being "hausaoid" among the Mokole Yoruba are simply cultural influences from their Bariba neighbours who completely surround them. I already stated that from the start.,,,, Their dressing is not 'Hausa dressing' if there is anything like that. If there exists any such thing, it is a 'sudanic west/central African' dressing mode ranging from the kaftans in Senegal and the Sahara to the 'Jibbas' in Sudan and Eritrea. Long flowing robes and Turbans are NOT an Hausa invention. lol

• The Yoruba clans you dismissed wasn't just Badagry.. You also said; Ijebu, Egba, Igbomina, Ekiti, Okun etc, which are all individual tribes with different 'languages' .. lol. As for Badagry it is a mixed town. Yoruba and Egun.

• The Map on the Yoruboid languages wiki page is someone's work and is not depicting the same thing mine is. His map is showing exact locations, mine depicts not only the location at a territorial divisional level but the degree of presence in each. Yes, wikipedia editors are supposed to respect one another (well, sort of) but that does not mean users/editors/the community tell people what to say, do or print.

If that map from glottolog is transduced into a provincial level map, it is essentially the same as the map already here.... (Unless you are telling me I shouldn't use the subnational levels one because YOU don't like the 'look' of it)

• This is the source map for the Nigerian section and as You can see, it does not distinguish between Edefoid (Yoruboid) languages, they are all the same color and the territorial limits are grossly inadequate for many languages based on information on ground. i.e Itsekiri and the igboid lects including Yoruba.

http://languages.y-bai.com/img/language_map/nga.png

Oramfe (talk)

Oramfe You can still make your point with the Yoruboid article map. It is from ethnologue, which is more reliable than your source. I think there should at least be a consensus, some form of compromise at the end of it all. I agree Mokolo are derived from Yoruba and You agree that map is out of place because of its expansionist tendency. We adopt a neutral and more reliable map. WIN WIN. Ppdallo (talk) 14:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo I am not engaging in this discussion with you to win. I am addressing your vandalism and why it wouldn't stand. It isn't your place to accept that the Mokoles are Yorubas, neither is it your place to accept a map that clearly depicts what it is labelled to be... and does a good job at that. In conclusion, I don't see the issue here.

-If at all I do change that map to use Ethnologue's resource, then the topic of any such new change will have to be altogether different since there is no way I can tell population sizes from the map, just immediate territory.

-The midway agreement here will be to hybridize both maps and limit the extent of the Mokole in Northern Benin to just their immediate lands alone as shown on ethnologue while adopting the population figures from peoplegroups.org

Oramfe Please have a look at this Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiZ3naVXgDQ) just for one minute. You will think they are Yoruba or Yoruboid? NO they are Hausa. They are wearing one of the many varieties of unique Hausa clothing, in this case specifically for hunters, long distance travelers and 'yantauri. HAUSA PEOPLE GAVE THIS DRESS TO OYO PEOPLE AND THEY LIKE IT, JUST LIKE THE NAME "YORUBA" which they like too.Ppdallo (talk) 14:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo lol... what I see is some Hausa people with Yoruba style agbada and caps. Some of them even donned in Yoruba narrow loom textiles and fabric design styles. It would be foolhardy of you to think that before Hausas traders started frequenting the areas of Yorubaland they weren't already exposed to these styles of clothing. Yorubas have been exposed to the interior of west Africa for ages.... This was the same way you almost jumped into conclusion about how Islam got introduced into Yorubaland a while ago. So what makes you think that Yorubas who have been in contact with early islamic west Africa since before the 1300s had to wait for Hausas to wear 'agbada-like' clothing? lol. The Yoruba precussor to the modern Agbada evolved from the 'Pakaja' style of wrapping or throwing a long robe around the body.

• Hausas didn't name Yoruba people Yoruba either. Your reference on the Yoruba article in reference to Hausa is very fallacious and I am revisiting that particular section very soon as well.. so keep on the lookout... Your caps lock tirade will soon be all for naught. :-D

Oramfe Hahaha Dutch Courage!I want you to be my best friend on Wikipedia :)Ppdallo (talk) 16:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo Better that than delusive contentment. A fool's paradise is no paradise at all. Oramfe (talk)

Oramfe Ok. I hope you don't cite Ibadan and Abeokuta women adire/indigo dyers because to start with, both Ibadan and Abeokuta were founded in the late 1800s by refugees after the Hausa Fulani have destroyed Oyo kingdom. Ppdallo (talk) 16:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe As for Islam in Yorubaland, any secondary school certificate holder should know from West African History the story of Mallam Alimi and Afonja. I have it in my schedule to straighten the records on Islam in Yorubaland. Also Yoruba have no "narrow loom textiles" except the one introduced to coastal West Africa by Europeans in the late late 1800sPpdallo (talk) 16:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo Oga, how is dyeing the same thing as weaving/looming fabric through a weft?

Hausas used to be slaves, domestic servants and menial job doers in old Oyo which was very cosmopolitan. Internal political rivalry destroyed Oyo-ile and the Fulanis came as the opportunistic vultures they usually present themselves to be. Hausas were inconsequential.lol.... All they did was cower in runaway refuge towns like Suleja.\ while the utterly defeated were used as willing tools elsewhere.

Now, serious matters aside for a minute. Are you Hausa or "Hausa-Fulani"? Oramfe (talk)

Ppdallo Islam in Yorubaland began with Alimi the fulani preacher... slowclap for your own ignorance... ≤ ≤ ≤ ≤

Oramfe Coolu ya temper bro. Back to our "Yoruba presence" map discussion. I expect you to substitute the ethnologue version else I will revert that section to before you introduced that map. Cheers and bye. See ya another time and peace!Ppdallo (talk) 17:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo We shall see about that.

Yoruba and Gur group.

Talisman-white It is really sad to see how you are trying to turn your editing privileges into ethnic/religious and tribal name calling. Wikipedia is about spreading credible and verifiable information. If you have any issue with any edit on Yoruba people article simply come over to the talk page and discuss it. I hereby invite you to discuss the issue of how Yoruba are related with Hausa people and how they are not related to Gur group.Ppdallo (talk) 08:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC) From Talisman-white,
Claims made:
1) I am trying to turn my editing privileges into ethnic/religious and tribal name calling. Disagreed
2) Wikipedia is about spreading credible and verifiable information. Agreed

• Talisman-white These are your words: "Are you keeping alphabetical order or the order of number of adherents? You are clearly keeping some kind of propaganda order. I have been editing on this page for over a year and this is how it has always been until you and your malo buddy showed up claiming you were fixing vandalism by changing information around." The word "Malo" is a derogatory Yoruba word for Hausa person.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Requests made:
3) Come over to the talk page and discuss it.
4) Discuss the issue of how Yoruba are related with Hausa people and how they are not related to Gur group.
Existing discussions:
Talisman-white:
The Bariba and Oyo have extensive history. The Yoruba in Benin and Togo are intertwined with the smaller Gur groups. There are Yoruba in Northern Ghana for centuries. Please don't remove content without contrasting evidence --See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Degree_of_Presence_of_The_Yoruba_and_%27Yoruba_derived%27_groups_in_Nigeria%2C_Benin_and_Togo_at_Subnational_levels.jpg

• Talisman-white This map is unverifiable. I have just removed it based on previous discussions I had with Oramfe
  

Ppdallo: Yoruba are related to Hausa by culture and the fusion of Oyo people and Hausa people in the city of Ilorin.
Talisman-white: Do not come to this page with this. Hausa are literally a chadic group with R1B haplogroup markers. They are camel based and sahelian. Yorubas share genetic traits with the Ewe and Ga. Ilorin was taken by conquest not by willing association. Please refrain from posting nonsense --See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M2#E1b1a1a1f
Ppdallo: Related ethnic groups is not just by haplogroup markers. It is as well by culture and history. What connects a Mossi to Yoruba? If Hausa is related to Ebira and Nupe it is by history and culture. Stop using abusive language here. It is all about the facts and not ethnic ego. --What connects Mossi to Yoruba is literally everything you are falesly trying to claim significantly connects Yoruba to Hausa https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Naaba_Zomb_Wobgo_2013.jpg, https://i.pinimg.com/474x/a5/60/ea/a560ea1a4d920226f84afec90f277ba9.jpg, https://i.redd.it/febvm5ergbt41.jpg Yoruba speaking people are part of a continuum of Coastal and Savannah West Africans that share zero Chadic identity and do not wish to

• Talisman-white Do you believe that these unverifiable images are enough to link Yoruba with with Mossi or any Gur group? I cant believe this is coming from you.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Talisman-white: There is no substantial historical connection between Yoruba and Hausas. This leaves culture and the only thing listed has been the talking drum, something not centrally representative of Hausa culture but an attempt to dig out whimsical links. Presenting fact is not about forcing associations, but showing meaningful, self-evident and verifiable claims. Talking drums fail at the meaningful part
Ppdallo: Yoruba has wholly adopted Hausa clothing from everyday clothing style right up to their traditional institutions. There is no any other forest people in southern Nigeria that look so much "Hausa" in their dress style as the Yoruba. The "talking drum" is called Kalangu in Hausa and they are the only people using it in the entire Sahel region, except the forest Yoruba --See Mossi Gur people with talking drums https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Naaba_Zomb_Wobgo_2013.jpg. and there are more, it is a big part of West African Niger-Congo traditions. We are not chadic

• Talisman-white This is an unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Talisman-white: Yoruba has NOT adopted Hausa style on clothing for reasons that they are Hausa. The same style of clothing can be seen 10 times moreso among any of the Gur people directly interfacing with the Yoruba, and these same Gur groups themselves have talking drums and eat yams as staple meals along with the Yorubas. Refrain from using this page for propaganda --See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Troupe_de_danse_de_Andemtenga.jpg.

• Talisman-white This is an unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Ppdallo: Lets move to Yoruba talk page. Yoruba adopted Hausa clothing 100%. Yoruba have never interfaced with any Gur group in their entire history. All individual tribes comprising Gur groups are very small in population and they each neighbor Hausa people and their culture is heavily influenced by the larger Hausa. Name one Gur tribe using the Kalangu or the so called "talking drum" and what they call it in their language. So you are now claiming yam as Yoruba staple food??? Wonders never end. LOL --Notice the reference to Africa lists the Yoruba dish Iyan, there is a reason why it is the only one that made the page and is rumored to be the reason for the high twin rate of the Yoruba ethnic group. When another ethnic group is used as an example for Africas Yam consumption, you can come back to me on this. It is also a known fact in Ghana that Dgagombas eat pounded Yam, along with the Ewe and this is one thing that distinguishes them from the groups west of the Volta river. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(vegetable)#Major%20cultivated%20species

• Talisman-white Wikipedia cannot be a reference unto itselfPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Ppdallo: Yoruba are not related to Gur peoples
Ppdallo: Talking drum is not Yoruba musical instrument -- Looks like more Niger-Congo groups have it than Chadic groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_drum#Names%20in%20West%20Africa It would seem it expanded from the many Niger-Congo groups to the one Chadic group and not otherwise and by the way, there are your regional names so you can stop saying that Yorubas using talking drums is evidence of some links to Hausas; we have never needed association with Hausas for either our drum culture or our clothing; there are many nearer groups for that and historical trades routes to go with that. Your group is chadic and afro-asiatic, with with a highly conservative culture and even henna which is from the far east and nowhere close to other closer Yoruba ethno-linguistic influences

• Talisman-white Wikipedia cannot be a reference unto itself. Besides, google any of those so called native names for the talking drum and see if the hourglass drum will show up. However, do the same with the Hausa name of Kalangu and see for yourself. Do Yoruba have a history of leather tanning? How could they make the talking drum?Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Talisman-white: Removed Hausa from Related section
Talisman-white:There is countless evidence of cultural continuity between the Yoruba and the various Gur people, especially those who live adjacent within Benin and Togo. Yoruba King: https://i.pinimg.com/474x/a5/60/ea/a560ea1a4d920226f84afec90f277ba9.jpg Mossi King (Moro Noba): https://i.redd.it/febvm5ergbt41.jpg

• Talisman-white Unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Talisman-white: Reverted from vandalism. I don't know why Hausa boys are coming here to reduce our population numbers.
Talisman-white: Fixed population numbers according to latest reported evaluations of US CIA factbook from 2018 estimates
Ppdallo: Yoruba are not related to Gur groups but are related to Hausa culturally and historically. Also population figure is false.
Ppdallo: Yoruba is related to Hausa by culture and history. The name "Yoruba" is also a Hausa word. Also Somba in Northern Benin and Togo being Niger-Congo is the same thing as Fulani Language being Niger-Congo. Or Hausa and Hebrew being Afro-Asiatic --I agree that every one in the Niger Congo Language groups are collectively more related to one another than to members of an external language group such as Afro-Asiatic and Chadic as the Hausa are https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_African_language_families.svg And this is an anecdote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoruba_people#Etymology

• Talisman-white That map is unverifiable. I have removed itPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Talisman-white:
1. You know that claimed relation is tantamount to garbage. I have already discussed with you months ago that there is nothing significantly connecting the Yorubas and the Hausas as you remain to admit. Let me reiterate
A. The Hausa people are a CHADIC group with strong R1b Haplogroup markers, which further connects them with other chadic groups. Yoruba haplogroup e1b1a=92. Mossi haplogroup e1b1a=90. Hausa haplogroup e1b1a=12. Conclusion: Yorubas and Gur are not significantly genetically related to Hausas; which is obvious unless such claims were politically motivated. --See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Sub-Saharan_Africa and arrange by the e1b1a column
B. The Hausa people historically have very Sahelio-Islamic clothing mannerisms. These are clearly capturred by the use of Turbans, Camels, Garbs, which are in sharp contrast with anything traditionally Yoruba. A clear depiction is the image of the caravan and the wailer. It is clear where the camel riders are from and where the wrapped woman is not from. Neither the Nupe, the Gbagyi, the Ebira, nor the Edo have ever ridden camels culturally or engaged in turbaned and other Islamic form of clothing or displays. How you skipped all those groups and claim association with Yoruba is quite an impressive leap of faith. If I was not from a West African community, I might not even realize the underlying political motivations. --Hausa https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Durbar.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Slave_Caravan_pic_in_yoruba_country.jpg

• Talisman-white This images are meaningless to this discussionPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  
• Ppdallo I'll give you one of two options: you can measure the degree to which they are meaningless, or you can accept them for the fact that you cannot refute them.
  

C. Language group: Afro-Asiatic vs Niger-Congo|Volta-Niger. Another self-evident point. Hausas share Afro-Asiatic language classification with other Chadic groups. Neither the Yoruba nor the Gur do. --See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadic_languages

• Talisman-white This doe not make sense as I have earlier told you Yoruba is related to Hausa by culture and history of the city of IlorinPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

D. Do this Math: 219,463,862 * 0.155. If the answer is 34016898.61, then why do you keep on reverting the population figures on this page? Is it political or is it just dishonesty?

• Talisman-white ??????Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

E. Yorubas do not begin and end in Nigeria. The Gur groups in Benin and Togo are seamless with the Yoruba communities in the North of those countries and it did not take religious conquest. What the Nupes, Ebira, and Edos are to those in Nigeria is what they are to the ones in Togo and Benin and that expands on to the Ewe/Ga and the Dagomba by weak extension, but extension nonetheless. The way we interact is what true relation looks like, not political motivated drivel. --See

• Talisman-white There is no Yoruba in Northern Benin, Togo or Ghana. Even the Mokole language distinct from Yoruba.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

F. The biggest point you have is that the name Yoruba originated from the Hausa group. It is also worth noting that the term native American came from Europeans, and the continent of Asia was named by people west of the black sea. In all these listed cases, at least, they were named during travel. It bears mentioning that the the term was not even exchanged during contact but by a mutual visitor who asked the Hausas what the Yorubas were called to which they answered Yariba(or a variant). How that amounts to relatedness is less evident of worthy historical deliverable information but more evident of political motivations.

• Talisman-white The Yoruba was given to Oyo people by Hausa people(Please see etymology section). So if the name was given only to Oyo people and later applied to some other people in the later part of 1800s how then could it be part of "earlier" Yoruba history? There is no monolithic tribe called Yoruba. Only OyosPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  
• Ppdallo Are you dense? Is this your point that the name initially applying to only Oyos makes Hausa related to all speakers of the native language that is now considered Yoruba along the coast and in the savannah areas of West Africa? Evidently, it turns out Hausas knew even less about the current group if they could only identitfy its most active subset, so if not for Oyo's fame, they would know nothing about the ethnic group at all. And even you have to admit that saying there is no monolithic tribe called Yoruba in today's day and age pits you against the United Nations. If this is the kind of authority you are relying on to make changes on the page of an ethnic group that is not adjacent to yours by more than 3 degrees of other ethnic groups, you have either shown your hand or your incompetence. You should take notes, not liberties.

G. When you are not related genetically, by geographical adjacency, by language classification, by primary clothing habits and dress customs, by majority religion, by obvious behavioral idiosyncrasies reflected through worldview, how in the heck are you related? Sounds political, I might have missed it if I had not studied West African culture

• Talisman-white Yorubas first major religion is Islam. Get hold of any Ordinary level west African history text book and educate yourself about that. Also Yoruba dress is from Hausa. I chalenge you to cite any credible source for the so called Yoruba dress.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  
• Ppdallo: This is another showing of your hand that you are trying to Islamicize Yorubas through Wikipedia edits and forced relation with the expansionist philosophies that emanate from sects of known of your group. Otherwise, you would have left the page the way you met it when you stumbled onto it. If I told you that the first major religion of the Yoruba speaking people is the widely recognized Yoruba traditional religion would you dispute it? And to what measure would you go to tell me that a religion shared by multitudes of people which has found its way to over 3 continents and has existed for longer than anybody can remember for those multitudes is not sufficiently major? And how, without more disingenuous appeals to your own preferences wherein you would like to make the Yorubas more Islamic than even having the word Christian show up before the word Muslim on a Wikipedia page. But oh, I forgot, you asked to discuss a change you are trying to force, so that makes it less disingenuous. If significant religous history for the Yoruba start for you at Islam, then you and and the Hausas you are trying to tell me could not identify but a subset of a much larger group, as you cannot identify but a much more recent religion, need to do the learning.

H. Yorubas are neither Chadic, nor Sahelio-Islamic, nor Western-Eurasian in Haplogroup, nor Afro-asiatic, nor even on good terms with or adjacent to the Hausas.
I. Gurs are geographically Volta-Niger, of the same haplogroup, Niger-Congo, adjacent, are connected through historical events, and show the true transition of cultural wear which you are deceptively trying to credit to the Hausa. They occupy the space between the Coastal Yoruba and the Sahelio-Islamic groups which has made them conducive for trades in culture. Yoruba King: https://i.pinimg.com/474x/a5/60/ea/a560ea1a4d920226f84afec90f277ba9.jpg Mossi King (Moro Noba): https://i.redd.it/febvm5ergbt41.jpg

• Talisman-white You are not serious with these images, are you???
  

J. Don't mix politics and informational integrity. This is not Nigeria, this is the internet.

• Talisman-white??????Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Talisman-white: Yorubas are not related to Hausa
Ppdallo: Restored text from Vandalism. Yoruba are related to Hausa by culture and History.
Talisman-white: When you are not related genetically, by geographical adjacency, by language classification, by primary clothing habits and dress customs, by majority religion, by obvious behavioral idiosyncrasies reflected through worldview, how in the heck are you related? Don't mix politics and informational integrity. This is not Nigeria, this is the internet.

• Talisman-white Repetitve. Already answerd earlier.Ppdallo (talk) 13:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Talisman-white: This is not a game.
Talisman-white: Yoruba are intertwined with Gur in Nigeria, Benin, and Togo and you know it

• Talisman-white Repetitive.Ppdallo (talk) 13:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Talisman-white: Removed Hausa

• Talisman-white Just giving you enough time to read my replies to you. I will revert it.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  

Ppdallo: Yoruba are not related to Gur groups. Yoruba is related to Hausa. Please lts discuss this at Yoruba Talk page.
Ppdallo: Bariba is not a Gur tribe
This will have to continue. Work calls me

• Talisman-white I decided to reply you paragraph by paragraph. I think it is better that wayPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  
  

Collection of your responses are as follows:
The word "Malo" is a derogatory Yoruba word for Hausa person.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white This map is unverifiable. I have just removed it based on previous discussions I had with Oramfe
Talisman-white Do you believe that these unverifiable images are enough to link Yoruba with with Mossi or any Gur group? I cant believe this is coming from you.Ppdallo (talk)
Talisman-white This is an unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white This is an unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Wikipedia cannot be a reference unto itselfPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Wikipedia cannot be a reference unto itself. Besides, google any of those so called native names for the talking drum and see if the hourglass drum will show up. However, do the same with the Hausa name of Kalangu and see for yourself. Do Yoruba have a history of leather tanning? How could they make the talking drum?Ppdallo (talk)
Talisman-white Unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white That map is unverifiable. I have removed itPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white This images are meaningless to this discussionPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white This doe not make sense as I have earlier told you Yoruba is related to Hausa by culture and history of the city of IlorinPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC) Talisman-white ??????Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white There is no Yoruba in Northern Benin, Togo or Ghana. Even the Mokole language distinct from Yoruba.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white The Yoruba was given to Oyo people by Hausa people(Please see etymology section). So if the name was given only to Oyo people and later applied to some other people in the later part of 1800s how then could it be part of "earlier" Yoruba history? There is no monolithic tribe called Yoruba. Only OyosPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Yorubas first major religion is Islam. Get hold of any Ordinary level west African history text book and educate yourself about that. Also Yoruba dress is from Hausa. I chalenge you to cite any credible source for the so called Yoruba dress.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white You are not serious with these images, are you???
Talisman-white ??????Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Repetitve. Already answerd earlier.Ppdallo (talk) 13:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Repetitive.Ppdallo (talk) 13:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Just giving you enough time to read my replies to you. I will revert it.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white I decided to reply you paragraph by paragraph. I think it is better that wayPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo You pretended to invite me to a discussion only to follow up with a barrage of actually saying nothing dispersed around text to make it look like some meaningful contribution. "This is unverifiable, I removed it" and "??????" won't cut it. If this is the grand backing for the authority you are trying to assume on this page, then you are as fake as the pseudocordial persona you are trying to peddle.

Ppdallo The bottom line is you cannot prove that Yorubas are related to Hausas and cannot refute the Niger-Congo/Afro-Asiatic language group NON-RELATION, the Coastal&Savannah/Sahelian NON-RELATION, the e1b1a/R1b genetic haplogroup NON-RELATION, the religious affiliation of majority NON-RELATION, the lack of geographical adjacency NON-RELATION, or prove that your ethnic group restricted all other ethnic groups from imposing any influence on the Yorubas except your own, that you are not an ethnic and religious expansionist revisionist, or that you can reason beyond declaring things you have not disproven to be unverifiable

These following two quotes of yours

• ...There is no monolithic tribe called Yoruba.
  
• ...Yorubas first major religion is Islam.
  

suggest that your intentions are as rotten as the edits you are making on the Yoruba People page -- If I don't see you change the title of this page to "Yoruba peoples", then I will have to call you out on inconsistency and hypocrisy and force you to acknowledge that you know you are lying. A page you don't believe is in itself verifiable, due to its title, is the same page you are pretending to be an authority on -- how disingenous? I will permit you start a page called "Yoruba peoples"(I will unlink the redirect) where you can share all your clearly verifiable information to your heart's desire, paint "Yoruba peoples" as Islamic to you hearts pleasure, and partition the meta-cluster of "peoples" to infinitesimally small degrees of fineness till you have satisfied your thirst for ideal verifiability of information anywhere. Don't forget to reduce the population

Talisman-white Trying to whip up religious and ethnic sentiments, right? Sadly for you this is the internet and not the streets. The entire Yoruba peoples article has been flagged as follows: "This article includes a list of general references, but it remains largely unverified because it lacks sufficient corresponding inline citations. Please help to improve this article by introducing more precise citations. (June 2021) " and that was as at june 2021 and it was not me who flagged it that way.
My paragraph by paragraph response to you is a validation of the unreliability of the content in "Yoruba people" article. I am trying to help improve it and here you are extracting my response out of context and labeling me names.That means you have nothing more to say and therefore my edit will prevail. Well, no matter what you say I have heeded the call and i will help improve this article. It is my responsibility as as a Wikipedia editor. I will review the entire article and i hope you will be around to challenge my every edit. Cheers and bye. See ya next time.Ppdallo (talk) 09:26, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok Talisman-white , am back! Like i said earlier, calling me names will not serve you any purpose. You called me "dense" and i quote "Are you dense? Is this your point that the name initially applying to only Oyos makes Hausa related to all speakers of the native language that is now considered Yoruba along the coast and in the savannah areas of West Africa?". Now here you are relating Yoruba to all members of Gur peoples just because a southern pheriphral subdivision (Bago, Kusuntu) of the subgroup (Gurunsi Languages) which is a subgroup of the Gur people, had contact with a Yoruboid group (who are dissimilar in languages). Please read the full text of Kleinewillinghöfer (2002) reference material very well, it did not say (Bago, Kusuntu) are related to Yoruboid but rather it said they were in contact just like some other group that neighbor them.
Incidently, Hausa language is listed as a secondary language of the of the Gurunsi peoples along with others and their history intertwined with that of the Hausa and the Djerma. Now here you are denying that Yoruba are rlated to Hausa people but rather to Gur peoples. Are you thick? Lol Ppdallo (talk) 18:26, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Talisman-white And finally on the issue of Yoruba "relation" with Gur group I would like you to take the following note:
1. (Bago, Kusuntu)are peripheral to Gur group for that matter and were only in contact with Yoruboid group. They are not a Yoruboid Group
2. Yoruba is not tantamount to "Yoruboid group" but only a memebr, with distinct language from other members of the group
3. You cannot use such a contact relationship with a peripheral subdivision of a subgroup to gain access to other Gur groups just like the Hausa is not tantamount to "Chadic" nor can Hausa claim relationship with Jews just because they are Afroasiatic.Ppdallo (talk) 11:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Etymology 2

Talisman-white These are the reasons why i reverted you edit.
1. The text you reverted is simpler to understand, fully sourced and closer in content to all the cited references in that section.
2. You introduced duplicate and conflicting content that contradicts the cited reference.[[4]]
3. The name is borrowed and not "encountered".
4.The name is an Hausa exonym and not a "denonym".
5. The name was in reference to Oyo people and not "Oyo Empire".
6.Lastly, the website is neither yours nor mine. We are all here to make wikipedia a veritable source of factual information and nothing more or less..
NB. I still have a pending dispute with you in the above section (Yoruba and Gur group) and so far you have ignored my last post. Ppdallo (talk) 12:19, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

• Ppdallo These are my responses to the reasons why you reverted my edit.
  
• 1. Please use "citation needed" where appropriate.
  
• 2. I do not see that that was done anywhere.
  
• 3. Encounter precedes borrowing. The text said that these were missionaries. There was definitely encounter
  
• 4. Semantic expansion makes the term now a denonym. "Hausa name" on the page will be updated to "Hausa exonym" to reflect it was once so.
  
• 5.This is part of the accounts of the expeditions of Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander in the early 19th century. so, the word was applied to the inhabitants of Oyo while Dahomey still paid it taxes and it was used in this very same book at that very same time
  
• 6. I said that first. This is my exact point. "Ppdallo The reversion of the work of a fellow contributor was your initiation. The discussion should have been and should be initiated by you. Do not revert a 3rd time. I have included the earlier citation you provided to satisfy the request for it. This is not your website."
  
• 7. It was assumed that I had nothing more to say and that your edits would prevail, by your own words. That was your retraction of your invitation to discussion, on my part. Try not to accuse me of not discussing after making statements like that please :)

• For no 5, Hugh Clapperton is literally using the word Yourriba to refer to the king of Yourriba before oyo had fallen:
• 1. It was the encountered Hausa exonym (Yaraba) for Oyo dialect speakers of the larger ethnolinguistic group.
• 2. The term was borrowed by Hugh Clapperton in the reference of the Oyo kingdom while it collected regional tax from its surroundings. "King of Yourriba" is a reference to the
• empire
  

Talisman-white Your latest edit makes the content even more vague and out of sync with the cited references. The content you reverted is succinct and well sourced. Remember, we have a very long way to go as we proceed in our journey to sanitize the Yoruba people article.Ppdallo (talk) 08:47, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Ppdallo My latest edit was your own correction that the word for the Hausa was an exonym. The content I reverted was not succinct and well sourced. You have been, otherwise, invited to use the "citation needed" tag as necessary. We do not have either a long or a very long way to go in proceeding to sanitize the Yoruba people article, by statement alone. Your first argument was that a section had existed a certain way for years and your current one is that the content needs to change. The maintenance template is as much a user contribution (active or inactive user) as any, and we do not regularly see the user. That template as well is a matter of dispute. You need not worry, the rest of the editors are confident that we will keep the page proper and sound.
• As a point of starting, the "the word "Yoruba" (or more correctly "Yaraba") was originally in reference to the Oyo Empire and is the usual Hausa name for Oyo people as noted by Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander.[44] It was popularized by Hausa usage[45]" is not the kind of proper and sound we the other editors are looking for. According to the citation itself, the word Yoruba is not "more correctly" Yaraba. It is Yoruba, and derivation through semantic expansion, and as such it is more correctly Yoruba. This is the first point. The second point is that the word "Yoruba" is not the "usual Hausa name for the Oyo people," that word is Yaraba, which as an exonym was never subject to the vehicle of semantic expansion as it as always existed outside of the place where Yoruba was created out of Yaraba, through many other variants too, including Yourriba (a reference to the empire of Oyo -- written before 1836). So, Hugh Clapperton and Ricahard Lander did not note that the word "Yoruba" was the "usual" Hausa name for the Oyo people in the early 19th century and also, "Yoruba" was not popularized by Hausa language, as the Hausa kingdoms never use the word "Yoruba" as an exonym. This artice is about the word "Yoruba". Can you please consider creating an article about the word "Yaraba" and explaining its etymology? It would be fitting to separate the two words as the readers might otherwise believe that the Hausa people used the word "Yoruba" while they used the word "Yaraba," as the second word (derived not "less correct") was incorporated as a matter of self-definition
  

Talisman-white Then we take the matter to dispute resolution, if you insist.Ppdallo (talk) 14:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Ppdallo Please do not push insistence on me. I hope you make your own decisions :)

Talisman-white Please note the following in relation to the cited references backing up the content you reverted in the Etymology section:
1. Oyo was a Kingdom and not an empire as noted on page 20 of Hugh Clapperton.
2. Oyo kingdom was called Yarriba (Yaraba) by Arabs and Hausa people as noted on page 38 of Hugh Clapperton as well as a Hausa term for Oyo people as noted on page 20 of Maureen Warner-Lewis (1997)
3. The capital of Oyo Kingdom (Oyo town) was also called Katunga in Hausa language as noted on pge 92 of Hugh Clapperton.
NB:
-That the word "yourriba" is a mere anglicizition of the word "Yarriba(Yaraba)" by Clapperton just as he did with "Houssa" for Hausa and "Eyeo" for Oyo, since he was writing for his English audience who would actually pronounce "Yourriba" as "Your-r-i-bah" just the same as Hausa would pronounce "Yaraba"

-It can be safely assumed that Arabs got to know about yarriba (yaraba) through Muhammadu Bello's writings considering the fact that there is no evidence that Arabs had contacts with Oyo kingdom or any part of forest west Africa for that matter, while on the other hand Muhammadu Bello's writings were all over the literate world and Arabs in particular, who by then were already in contact with Hausa people centuries earlier
In light of the above explanations maybe we could try one more time to reach a consensus?Ppdallo (talk) 10:37, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo A critique of your entry:
Fair-
Statement: The word "Yoruba" (derived from Hugh Clapperton's "Yourriba" from the original Hausa xenonym "Yarriba" or "Yaraba") was originally in reference to Oyo[46]
Fact: This was included within the previous edit you reverted
Disingenuous-
Statements: The word "Yoruba" derived from Hugh Clapperton's "Yourriba" from his anglicization of the original Hausa xenonym "Yarriba" or "Yaraba"
Correction: Anglicization implies that a word was made English and "Yourriba" was no more English than "Yaraba." It was instead part of an evolution of an original Hausa exonym "Yarba-Yaraba" that gave way to the word "Yoruba" during missionary intervention
"Yoruba" was originally in reference to Oyo kingdom
Correction: "Yoruba" was originally in reference to the larger ethnoliguistic groups centralized by Oyo, "Yoruba" always applied outside Oyo and is therefore not equivalent to Yarba, or Oyo[45]
"Yoruba" is the usual Hausa and Arabs name for Oyo people
Correction: "Yarba-Yaraba" is the usual Hausa and Arabs exonym for Oyo people, not "Yoruba" (It is never used locally)[45]
Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander noted that "Yoruba" is the usual Hausa and Arabs name for Oyo people
Correction: Hugh Clapperton noted that the Arabs and Houssa used "Yarriba"; he never made a statement regarding "Yoruba" as that word was popularized by later missionaries after his death.[45]
"Yoruba" was popularized by Hausa usage
Correction: "Yoruba" was popularized between Europeans missionaries and the efforts of the Oyo related people to define their selves[45]
"Yoruba" was popularized by ethnography written in Ajami during the 19th century by Sultan Muhammad Bello.
Correction: "Yoruba" was popularized between Europeans missionaries and the efforts of the Oyo related people to define their selves[45]
[48] [49][50]: This Yoruba article Etymology section is not an autobiography on Muhammad Bello; the citations need to be applicable to the statements made in the sentence preceding.
For you to note-
Statement
Etymology is "the study of the history of words. By extension, the etymology of a word means its origin and development throughout history."
Extrapolation
It does not mean the strict equivalence of a word with its associated origin for no just reason. The word "Yoruba" is the result of development sequence throughout history. "Yarba-Yaraba"-->"Yaribba"-->"Yourriba"-->"Yoruba". Respectively, (In reference to Hausa and Arabs understanding of Oyo)-->(In reference to Richard Lander's classification of Oyo)-->(In reference to Hugh Clapperton's addressing of the Oyo empire AND kingdom)-->(In reference to the term self and missionary applied during missionary work to a far much larger ethnolinguistic group/cluster). Words contain meanings, and the meanings captured between "Yarba" and "Yoruba" differ by the range of we're talking millions of new people. So no, the words are not spelled the same, nor do they even mean or refer to the same thing and in conclusion are NOT the same word. As such, "Mohammed Bello" did not popularize the name "Yoruba," neither did he necessarily popularize "Yaraba" but simply wrote about it. We do not see evidence of his notes leading to popularization as Yaraba is still largely unused even among the Hausa and Arabs today as it declined in it's exonym state, besides meaning something completely different -- and we are not even concerned with that word here. When confronted with the version updated to in your last series of reverts, I don't see how someone can correctly learn about the progression of words and about the progression of the ranges of application of the words associated with the denonym found in the title of this article -- "Yoruba", in reference to "Yoruba people". Instead, what they are getting is that the resultant word is in complete equivalence with its original and credited to the Hausa and Mohammed Bello, which is false. This is in addition to you adding an Ajami Arabic translation to the page title for a non-Arabic speaking people and, in the past, insisting that Islam be the first religion displayed in the infosection ethnic group section. What you should have instead done is point out that "Yoruba" is a New Word, framed by New parties, with New Range of Application. Thanks for listening and understanding here :)
Addition
I have already told you that Wikipedia is not the place to try to Arabize the Yoruba people or to add them to some Hausa/Arab Expansion pack. It is an encyclopedia for crying out loud, and all your post and revert are about this. What is with the new entry of posting an Ajami translation of the title to the page? Yorubas speak French even more! Yoruba will do, English will do, even French. That translation neither servers an understanding of the topic of the page nor the language of this Wikipedia version and you reverted my change to do it; this is English Wikipedia for crying out loud. Virtually nobody here reads or writes in Ajami. Please consider adding it to the Arabic translation of the Yoruba people. We cannot add every language to the text, other Wikipedias exist for that and stop trying to colonize Yorubas through Wiki. It looks weird
Oluwatalsiman (talk) 12:37, 16 September 2021 (UTC)