Talk:Al-Khwarizmi

Iranian background

On Khwarizmi's Iranian(Persian) background from an involved reader of the concensus

Aryabhata

In the whole article the mathematician Aryabhata doesn't get mentioned. Which is somewhat strange since fe. al-Khwārizmīs book is based on his works. Some even argue that the term Algebra actually is derived from his name via arabization.--46.125.249.20 (talk) 21:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

David A. King on al-Qutrubulli

David A. King is a leading expert on Islamic astronomy. In a 2018 lecture at the Centre for the Study of Islamic Manuscripts in London, he noted that "al-Qutrubulli" is an indicator of al-Khwarizmi's birthplace. Here is a transcript and a direct link:

I mention another name of Khwarizmi to show that he didn't come from Central Asia. He came from Qutrubul, just outside Baghdad. He was born there, otherwise he wouldn't be called al-Qutrubulli. Many people say he came from Khwarazm, tsk-tsk.

I thought this would be an interesting counter point to Roshdi Rashed's hypothesis from the 1970s, which proposed that al-Qutrubulli to be a different astronomer (we have yet to discover any evidence for this). Currently the article is presenting Rashed's hypothesis as the only possible explanation. Per wp:npov, we must also present other views held by experts, especially more recently held ones. So I added this line, but it has since been reverted. Is there any policy-based arguments for that revert? Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 01:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Fair enough [1], I retract what I said regarding his reliability. However, I still do not think that the citation is in line with WP:RS, as its a Youtube video, not an academic published article, where I'm sure he would make an actual argument supported by citations. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:59, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

It's well within wp:sps: Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert .... Same with expert blogs. So I guess there is no policy-based objection. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 01:40, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

If "al-Qutrubulli" is added as a potential name then the full name from Tarikh Al-Tabari (the source that David A. King refers to) which is al-Khwārizmī al-Majūsī al-Quṭrubbullī should be mentioned too. Otherwise it will give the mistaken impression that David King is arguing against "Al-Khwarizmi" being his name. --Qahramani44 (talk) 17:14, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

"Al-Qutrubulli" is already in the article. The point here is we need to counter Rashed's assessment with King's more recent take. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 20:38, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

A Youtube video is not a 'Self-published expert source'. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:52, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

It's a public lecture by an established expert. See WP:VIDEOREF. Also Youtube videos are found in many history articles, see Astrolabe, Spherical Earth, Automation, etc. If you're objecting on the use of Youtube videos feel free to raise the issue at WP:RSN. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 01:50, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

X being used in other articles does not justify the use of X here, I believe there is a guideline for that. The video is still not WP:RS regardless. Feel free to take it to WP:RSN yourself. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:43, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Official Youtube channels are considered reliable per WP:NOYT. The lecture is found in the official channel of al-Furqan Foundation and linked from their website.[2]. Also, from the RSN archive: Typically, recordings of spoken lectures by reputable authorities are reliable sources in general ...[3] Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 04:25, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Not at all, they may be considered reliable per the link, context is everything. Also, picking what you agree with from that long discussion is not really helping us here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:30, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I picked the part that no one disagreed with. Now, could you explain why this lecture isn't a reliable source for the views of David A. King? Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 19:26, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I believe I already explained that. Feel free to add a reliable, published source to the article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:04, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

No, you haven't. You spoke in general terms and later conceded that Youtube videos may be considered reliable. Now you need to be specific and explain how this particular lecture is not reliable for the views of David A. King. Just saying it isn't reliable without explaining why is not compelling. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 22:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I never conceded anything regarding that. Youtube is still not reliable to add here, something which I have explained several times now. Please go back and read my messages. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:38, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOYT is clear enough: official channels of notable organizations ... may be acceptable ... as a secondary source if they can be traced to a reliable publisher. The channel of al-Furqan Institute meets this criteria. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 12:35, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

It is clear enough indeed. As I already said earlier, it says may. Again, context is everything. I feel like we're going in a circle at this rate. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:43, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, so why do you think it's not acceptable in this case? I suggest you lookup "may" in a dictionary. By the way, your constant failure to answer questions directly is considered disruptive Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 13:17, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

May means possible. I suggest you look up WP:COMPETENCE and WP:ASPERSIONS, thank you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:56, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, there is a guideline for that, it's WP:OTHER.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:21, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Although nobody asked me for that, here is a WP:third opinion:

Apparently, there is no historical source about the birth place of al-Khwarizmi, and the only information that historians have is its name. Many people believe that his name proves that he came from Iran, while others think that al-Khwarizmi refers to the origin of his family, and that, as all his professional life was in Bagdad, and all his writing are in Arabic, there is no indication that he was not born near Bagdad.

Wikaviani has added a more precise version of the second opinion presented by a recognized expert in a public conference, mentioning explicitly that it was the opinion of this expert.

Apparently, there is no historical source about the birth place of al-Khwarizmi, and the only information that historians have is its name. Many people believe that his name proves that he came from Iran, while others think that al-Khwarizmi refers to the origin of his family, and that, as all his professional life was in Bagdad, and all his writing are in Arabic, there is no indication that he was not born near Bagdad.

HistoryofIran disputes this edit. In this disputes, HistoryofIran uses only procedural arguments, whithout discussing whether King's opinion is notable enough for being mentioned in Wikipedia. Moreover the name "HistoryofIran" suggest that he is not neutral on this subject, and that he is here for pushing Iran's official point of view (possible WP:COI).

In summary, the policy WP:NPOV leads me to support Wikaviani's edits. D.Lazard (talk) 20:49, 7 November 2021 (UTC)