Wikipedia talk:No original research

Publisher website links and WP:PRIMARY

Moved to Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard § Publisher website links and WP:PRIMARY

– 15:34, 10 May 2021‎ (UTC)

Community research should be encouraged! Community research would unleash the potential of humanity!

Original research can go in a special box and still be based on every other Wiki policy and principle, for example: consensus and neutral point of view.

I think this policy page flies only because for the early days of Wikipedia Jimbo Wales sent a mailing list post and everybody else now hops on. Altanner1991 (talk) 04:50, 31 August 2022 (UTC); edited 05:09, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Disagreed. No original research is a very important policy. It's about the idea that Wikipedia isn't a place for publishing original thought. It's a place for compiling secondary source references to support distillation of verifiable information into general purpose reference. Andre🚐 04:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

This has 0% chance of happening, but anyway: instead of a separate box, how about a separate website? We can call it Wordpress, Blogspot, YouTube, or Twitter. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, I thought it was the greatest suggestion. Wikimedia is far superior. Blogs and social networking? No, their lack of collaborative potential renders them irrelevant. Altanner1991 (talk) 05:44, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

There are all kinds of things that Wikipedia is WP:NOT. Some of them are even good in the right circumstance -- democracy, databases, speculation, websites. But original research is outside the scope of an encyclopedia. Shooterwalker (talk) 05:03, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I suppose a sister project would have been a more conservative suggestion. Altanner1991 (talk) 05:45, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I might agree that the encyclopedia is best (at least, at this point in time) kept "neat", meaning no major deviations from the traditional "encyclopedia concept". But the idea of "community-led research" in a sister project is something I would find exciting. Altanner1991 (talk) 05:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

i'm n00b. what of the case of simple calculations that any wikipedia reader can verify for themselves?

asking for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fischer_random_chess#How_do_I_go_about_adding_statistics?

I propose to add statistics that I'll calculate myself (eg how often white wins vs black wins vs draw) and then people can verify for themselves but it'll take about 15 minutes to verify. is this original research? Thewriter006 (talk) 13:39, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes it is, don't do it. If your results are valid, perhaps you can just search existing publications for the figures you came up with, and then cite those publications. Do not add unsourced material to the article based on something you came up with yourself, even if you are the author of the definitive work on the applications of statistical analysis to chess. Mathglot (talk) 23:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

how many minutes is the cut-off here: is 10 seconds acceptable? Eg 'White has about, on average, a 7% increased advantage in these 90 positions (Evaluation is 0.1913) compared to the remaining 870 positions (Evaluation is 0.1790).' There's no source for 7%, but there is for 0.1913 and 0.1790. And then you can calculate for yourself 7% in 10 seconds. So 10 seconds is ok but 15 minutes is not. Hmmmm...what's the cut off? Or is the 7% even O.R. too?

P.S. This is chess960 not chess. ;) Thewriter006 (talk) 08:09, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

The whole % calculation assumes these are linear ratio scales, which is non trivial. So while the calculation may (to some extent) be easy, the interpretation may be nonsensical (which is why it should not be added) E.g. it also makes no sense to claim that going from 32 Fahrenheit to 48 Fahrenheit is a 50% temperature increase - as becomes blatantly evidente when we use the Celsius equivalent (going from 0 tot 8.9 Celsius) which would amount to an infinite % of temperature increase). Arnoutf (talk) 15:08, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Arnoutf. Yes, there is an evaluation of 0.1913. Yes, there is another evaluation of 0.1790. Yes, 0.1913 is about 7% greater than 0.1790. But if you're not an expert in writing about chess960, you won't know know what an evaluation is, and what are valid ways to compare one evaluation to another. Which is why a reliable source should be making the comparison, and we should cite the reliable source. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

• When we say that simple calculations are not OR, we are talking about very basic arithmetic - adding two numbers together, converting feet into meters… things that the average 10 year old would understand. Statistical calculations are not that basic. When in doubt, cite a source. Blueboar (talk) 16:32, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

  Agree with Blueboar. Couldn't have said it better myself. Altanner1991 (talk) 03:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

  I think usually it should be allowable to use the kind of calculation the source intends be used. For example, if citing a table that was written with the expectation that the reader would interpolate between values, and the value being looked up is in between two tabular values, it would be appropriate for the Wikipedia editor to interpolate. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:33, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

• I collegially differ from my colleagues' remarks above about WP:CALC, and I believe it should go much farther than they suggest. Mathematics is a lot like a foreign language. It is not needful that anyone should be able to understand your calculations. All that matters is that someone should be able to understand it. We have some really top notch mathematicians on Wikipedia who can verify the more rarefied calculations for you. And indeed, in practice, articles within the scope of WikiProject Mathematics do rightly allow some pretty advanced maths, because it's impossible to explain mathematics successfully without examples and we can't rip off examples from textbooks because of copyright.

For example, our article on Tensor product of modules has a footnote that reads:

First, if $R=\mathbb {Z} ,$ then the claimed identification is given by $f\mapsto f'$ with $f'(x)(y)=f(x,y)$. In general, $\operatorname {Hom} _{\mathbb {Z} }(N,G)$ has the structure of a right R-module by $(g\cdot r)(y)=g(ry)$. Thus, for any $\mathbb {Z}$-bilinear map f, f′ is R-linear $\Leftrightarrow f'(xr)=f'(x)\cdot r\Leftrightarrow f(xr,y)=f(x,ry).$

I wouldn't expect a humanities graduate to follow that. But I put it to you that it is a good and valid way of verifying the claim it makes, and my position is that it does and should fall within the scope of WP:CALC.—S Marshall T/C 18:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Avoiding original research in determining superlatives

I have been having a discussion with others on Talk:Longest flights about how to verify "lists of superlatives." The case in question is a list of the longest flight currently operated by each type of aircraft. Since all commercial flight data is available on various commercial websites, in principle this information is just a case of sorting, which I suppose is a routine calculation as allowed by this policy. However, the number of flights is large enough that in practice this is done by a user running a script every week to scrape all of the flight data off of a flight data website and then sorting to find the longest flights. Is there an accepted way to cite these claims so that they are verifiable and do not fall afoul of the no-original-research policy? CapitalSasha ~ talk 13:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Thats synth because it requires making assumptions (like, did the carrier st one point offer a longer flight no longer offered?l. Superlatives in WP's voice should always be taken as OR. Masem (t) 14:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

That was my initial thought, but it was pointed out that the same criticisms apply to lists like List of tallest buildings that seem to be well-accepted. (No actual source is provided saying that The Marina Torch in Dubai is the 77th-tallest building in the world.) CapitalSasha ~ talk 16:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Except there, there are clear standards for how building height us measured and separate listing of these buildings relative to each other. Adding a new building to a well defined list like that as long as the standards for measurement have been set is not the same issue. Masem (t) 16:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Standards for flight length have also been determined though. They are measured by great circle distance. FlyingScotsman72 (talk) 01:19, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Let's finally split PSTS to its own page

This has come up time and again, and I think we should just do it. I realize that this will entail an RFC and probably some hand-wringing over whether the same words on a separate page still say the same thing. I get it; change is hard, and we want to get this right. But on the other side:

• the only reason this was ever in this page is because we wanted to tell people that Wikipedia is not a primary source, so we'd appreciate if editors didn't just make stuff up themselves and stick it in articles (i.e., "original research", as in "Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought", with the numbered list beginning with WP:NOT "Primary (original) research"),
• whether a source is primary, secondary, or tertiary doesn't have much to do with whether a claim is verifiable and therefore not original research (nothing that's actually verifiable is a violation of OR),
• the concept of PSTS is important to multiple policies and guidelines, not just this one. Actually, not even mostly this one. The words primary, secondary, and tertiary do not appear anywhere in this whole policy except in the one ===subsection===.

Looking it over, there will have to be a few changes, but they all seem surmountable. I might try to mock this up in the sandbox later, but so far, it looks like we'll need a new nutshell for the split-off policy (the existing one doesn't mention PSTS at all), and we'll need to decide whether PSTS should be called a "core" content policy in Template:Content policy list, or if it should be list in "Other", next to BLP and NOT. There's also the more mechanical matter of repointing various shortcuts, but that's easy.

It looks to me ike the lead of the current page won't need a single word changed, and it's possible that nothing else will either, except to copy the existing PSTS subsection to another page. The new page would probably benefit from a couple of introductory sentences.

@GregKaye, this is partly inspired by your comments above, so I'd like to know whether you see any problems with this. What do you (all) think?

WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:35, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

No.

WP:PSTS is the fundamental core of WP:NOR. Satisfying NOR requires a balance of primary and secondary sources, as nicely laid out at PSTS.

Verifiability is another policy. If you think NOR and V should be merged, let’s return to WP:A (a very good idea but failed catastrophically due to poor change management).

“Primary” means “original”. It appears in the title. “Secondary source” is mostly every source that is is reputable and not primary.

PSTS is core policy. It is the meat of NOR. It immediately goes to source typing, which is essential in writing an encyclopedia as opposed to writing a random collection of facts. Wikipedia is the first. Google serves for the second. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:25, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

The top of NOR says "The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist."

Therefore, I conclude:

• reliable, published source exists – not OR
• reliable, published source does not exist – OR

Note the complete absence of any words like primary or secondary in that definition. That's because they're not technically relevant to the question of whether a given claim is OR.

I disagree that any policy requires a "balance" of primary and secondary sources. This could only be true if you think that "balance" could involve zero primary sources, which is definitely the desirable "balance" for articles like Cancer. There is no reason for that article to cite any primary sources at all.

But even if you had the wrong balance of source types, the result wouldn't be "material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." It would just be another article with verifiable, non-OR contents that needed more work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:44, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

The top part, the current lede, is bloated and not very good. The early versions of the page began better. The part you quote is particularly poor. You conclusions suggest that you are going straight to WP:V.

You disagree that WP:PSTS requires a balance of primary and secondary sources? I’m astounded. It squarely does, and it is the most important part of this core policy, to require a balance of primary sources (sources of facts) and secondary sources (evidence of interest, and contextualisation of those facts). This policy establishes the need for the balance so clearly that it need not be repeated elsewhere.

Failure against PSTS usually means the article needs more work. Where the balance utterly fails, all facts no secondary sources, it is the extreme case covered by WP:N, which is an explicit WP:DEL#REASON and is regularly enforced. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:54, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Which sections are "most important" isn't really the point. The point is that the fundamental definition of "OR" has nothing to do with historiography. PSTS could continue being the most important policy even if PSTS's words weren't located on the same page as WP:CALC's words.

The early versions of the page don't mention PSTS at all. See, e.g., the first day:

---

Wikipedia is not

the place for original research such as "new" scientific theories.

From a mailing list post by Jimbo Wales:

If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.

If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides.

If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research.

---

Two months later, it got its first mention of primary sources, and that was to say that "Wikipedia is not the place for original research such as "new" theories. Wikipedia is not a primary source."

If you start an article with only plain, simple, obvious facts and no contextualization, you are not engaging in original research. You're just not writing a very good article. The point made in the early versions was that Wikipedia is not a publisher of original research. PSTS is not really about that rule at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:44, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

If you start with just plain simple facts, you’re taking a wild chance that what you are writing about is Wikipedia-notable. It is extremely poor advice to tell a newcomer that they can do this, even if they can. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:59, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

PSTS isn't about notability, and it isn't written for newcomers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:03, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

PSTS is the foundation of WP:N, the requirement that each article has two secondary sources. WP:N covers the extreme end of applicability of PSTS, where secondary sources don’t exist, and to attempt to write on the topic can only violate WP:NOR. WP:N doesn’t limit content, it is only for deletion/merge decisions. If you want to limit coverage of a subtopic within an article due to lack of subtopic notability, the policy basis for doing this is WP:NOR, specifically WP:PSTS.

All core policy should be considered to be written for newcomers. There is a history of leading Wikipedians using policy editing to engage in high-language debates with each other, but these pages should instead been regarded as basic policy that should be amongst the first pages that newcomers are pointed to, as is the case. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm struggling to understand how WP:N's reference to secondary source could possibly be harmed if the exact same words are on a page with a {{policy}} tag at the top that's called Wikipedia:Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources instead of being located on a page with the same tag at the top that's called Wikipedia:No original research.

When editors want to limit coverage of a subtopic within an article due to lack of subtopic pertinence, the most commonly invoked policy basis for doing this is WP:DUE, but even if you like to invoke PSTS for this, I again fail to see how that goal could possibly be harmed by putting the exact same words on a separate page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:27, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Harm?? WP:N has a foundation in PSTS was the point.

DUE is good for most cases. PSTS may be better sometimes, like when someone wants to add data that no source ever commented on. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:37, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Let's stipulate that WP:N has a foundation in PSTS.

What would happen to WP:N if we decided to WP:MOVE this page to a different title? Nothing, right? Not a single word of PSTS would change, and WP:N would not be affected at all.

What would happen to WP:N if we decided to put WP:SYNTH on a separate page? Nothing, right? Not a single word of PSTS would change, and WP:N would not be affected at all.

I suggest to you that cutting and pasting the text of PSTS to a separate page, also marked as policy, still linked straight there by WP:N, without changing a single word of PSTS, would equally have no effect on WP:N.

I am literally asking you to tell me what could possibly change if WP:N links to these exact words: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources...." either

• in a subsection on a policy page, versus
• at the top of a policy page.

What difference does the location of the words make to WP:N? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:42, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

The word “viewpoint” necessarily implies a secondary source in the historiographical meaning. Jimbo’s post says that others’ secondary source are required. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:09, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

In practice, we don't use the historiographical meaning, and I don't think his famous comment about "viewpoints" has any connection. All he says about OR in that message is "Wikipedia is not the place for original research", and he says this at the end of this paragraph: "If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then _whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not_, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article", in a thread about (literally) whether a Wikipedia editor had proven Albert Einstein wrong about special relativity. Think about that. That is the origin of our rule against original research. It has nothing to do with the value of secondary sources. It has everything to do with crackpots making stuff up and trying to get it published as The Truth™ in Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I don’t know who is your “we”. Wikipedia should use the historiographical definitions because an encyclopedia is an historiographical work, as opposed to a science report, or journalism (the main competition).

Jimbo was responding to the late 1990s thing of many amateur physicists determined to publish their theories, anywhere. I think it diminished due to the arrival of good search engines, when they could search for their discoveries and discovery that they weren’t new at all. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia uses articles from celebrity magazines and breaking news as the sole basis for articles. Either:

• We don't use the historiographical meaning of secondary, or
• We don't technically require true secondary sources.

Take your pick, but don't waste your time try to convince me that articles sourced entirely to WP:PRIMARYNEWS contain any source that a historian would, if looking back from even 20 years in the future, call a true secondary source.

If you feel like Wikipedia therefore isn't really an encyclopedia, then I won't contest your conclusion. Some may decry this and some may acclaim it, but regardless of individual opinions about whether it's desirable, it's a fact that we regularly accept articles that don't have any true secondary sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Cancer contains many primary sources. Note that source typing, primary vs secondary, is not inherent but depends on how the source is being used. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:57, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say that cancer doesn't cite primary sources; I said that it shouldn't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:35, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

It should. An article should standalone. It needs to define things, and give examples. These go to primary sources. All pure secondary sources, all opinion not facts, like running editorials containing running commentary assuming you already know the topic, do not make acceptable articles. Articles need both facts and contextualisation. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:58, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

A meta-analysis is a secondary source. It is, at its heart, a mathematical calculation. Do you think that meta-analyses are "opinion not facts"? Or is it your opinion that it's not a secondary source, even though multiple reliable sources say that it is?

It is common in scientific articles to source facts to secondary sources. High-school chemistry textbooks are not primary sources for facts about chemistry. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:31, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

If it’s a standard analysis, used in its standard way, then it is neither opinion, nor a secondary source, it is just standard data processing. If the analysis is new, or it’s use is not standard, then the applicability and interpretations are opinion. To better do this test, can I have some real examples?

It is common in scientific articles to find all sorts of atrocious referencing and other nonsense. Wikipedia should do better than some common things. Wikipedia should never reference high-school textbooks. Among other things, it is not the purpose of a text book to a reference work, but a teaching tool. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:49, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

doi:10.1111/j.1471-0528.1990.tb01711.x is one of the most famous meta-analyses. The creative analysis comes in deciding which things to analyze, not in how one does the math. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I can’t agree that at its heart, a meta-analysis is a mathematical calculation.

“Opinion” is a simple typical example of a description of secondary source content. More generally it is anything that is transformative of the primary source information. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:29, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

"I like dark chocolate" is an opinion, and it is not secondary material. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:58, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I think the question of whether WP:PSTS is both correct and good advice to newcomers needs to be resolved first. You appear to have a beef with PSTS. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:02, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

My only concerns with PSTS are that:

• It doesn't have much to do with editors making stuff up ("original research") and trying to cram it into Wikipedia ("Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought"), so it doesn't belong on this page.
• There are too few editors who understand that Wikipedia:Independent does not mean secondary.

Note that I haven't proposed changing a single word of PSTS. I just want it "physically" located on a separate page – a policy in its own right, not a subsection of a policy that doesn't mention PSTS at all outside of that one subsection. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:35, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

“Making stuff up” is not the focus of intent of NOR to counter, but the creative combination of facts by editors.

I think your essays on source typing are excellent. I don’t know how splitting out PSTS would help there.

I think PSTS shouldn’t be split out because PSTS is the core of NOR. NOR needs to include source typing and the need to balance primary and secondary sources, as defined historiographically, as per the articles primary source and secondary source. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

"Making stuff up" really is the focus and intent of NOR. SYNTH is all about editors making stuff up by saying "when I put this source next to that one, I get this new conclusion". The definition of NOR is "material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist" – in other words, "stuff made up by editors" (or, in these latter days, stuff copied by editors from obviously unreliable sources). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

No, because at best this would be a bunch of laborious re-arranging for not much or any benefit, but also because I can see this is premised on the same erroneous 'it is not OR if any source anywhere on Earth says the same thing' POV discussed to death here and here in these very archives.

PSTS is on this page because synthesizing primary sources into a narrative is a form of original research and hence forbidden. It matters not one iota that the individual statements are supported by the primary sources. Wikipedians are to cite secondary sources, not write them (something very similar is said at WP:MEDRS, but the general principle of relying on secondary sources applies everywhere).

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources. (emphasis added) Crossroads ^-talk- 02:40, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

This statement: "PSTS is on this page because synthesizing primary sources into a narrative" does not happen to be factually true. This would be clear if you had been editing back in the day, or even if you just spent all day reading the archives and stepping through the history of the policy.

PSTS is on this page because editors were fond of saying that "Wikipedia is not a primary source", and then they had to explain what that meant, and since none of the pages except NOT, which was already a mile long, said anything about this, the longer explanation ended up here.

SYNTH is wrong whether you do it with primary sources or secondary sources or tertiary sources or a combination of any of them. There is absolutely nothing about PSTS concepts that is relevant for understanding SYNTH. SYNTH could get along just fine if PSTS had never existed (NB: the same cannot be said for other policies and guidelines), and SYNTH will definitely get along just fine if the exact same words are present, complete with the exact same policy tag at the top of the page, on a separate page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:41, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

BTW, it's not "laborious" at all to split that section out. You can see it at Wikipedia:No original research/PSTS with a few notes from me in red. Because PSTS is not integrated into NOR, or even mentioned at all outside the one section, then removing it from NOR would take about ten seconds, and setting up the separate page took only a few minutes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:00, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't think the history particularly matters when it comes to reasons for how things should be now. Regardless of how easy it is to move the text, one of the most common forms of OR is misuse of primary sources. That's a rationale for keeping it here. Crossroads ^-talk- 00:24, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

• My primary concern with the current PSTS section is that it focuses the reader on the wrong thing… it focuses on evaluating the source, rather than evaluating the text of our articles - ie what we write, based on that source. OR does not stem from the type of source being used, but what we do with that source.

One advantage of splitting the PSTS section off into its own policy/guideline is that we could expand it… explaining HOW to use primary, secondary and tertiary sources appropriately, and HOW to avoid using them inappropriately. Blueboar (talk) 13:11, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Interesting, Blueboar. Evaluating the source, typing the source as primary or secondary, depends on how it is being used. Can you point to an example of where editors have had trouble with this?

How to use appropriately, that is always going to be an essay. While much of the current word count could be better explained in a dedicated essay, the core point has to remain policy, surely? SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Of course it does. That's why the core point should be moved to a separate policy page. I have absolutely no intention of "demoting" PSTS from policy status. In fact, I think it would be more accurate for you to think about this as a suggestion to "promote" it as its own, separate, stand-alone policy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:08, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I endorse that reasoning, and would strongly support putting it into its own page. I'm thinking of this absolutely excellent essay, which would belong in a split-off version of this policy. Wikipedia:Identifying and using primary sources DFlhb (talk) 15:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• I don't think we should eliminate discussion of PSTS on this page, as their basic definition is essential to understanding when OR comes up, but I do think we would benefit from a guideline page to explain in more depth what these sources are, how to identify them (we have that primary essary, but there should be similar advice for all three), inclusion of what Blueboar says above, that a work can be primary for one topic and secondary for another, there's no catchall here. Perhaps there's also consideration of how that type of page would intersect with the existing WP:RS. I agree we cannot completely separate PSTS discussion from OR, but I think the matters around PSTS need more than essay pages to flesh out. --Masem (t) 13:37, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

  Can you share an example of why you really need to understand PSTS to figure out if someone's putting stuff in an article that isn't in any source?

  Indisputable NOR violations include:

  • I can't see the Earth curving, so it's flat. (No reliable source says this, so it's an OR violation.)
  • This tweet says he got married today, and this other tweet says he's in City this evening, so obviously the wedding happened in City. (Straightforward SYNTH)
  • Paul is an actor.^{[source saying he's not]} (Assuming no other reliable sources say this, it's an OR violation.)

  I don't need to know which of these are primary, secondary, or tertiary sources to figure out that these are NOR violations. Every single one of them would be a NOR violation no matter which type of source was claimed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:06, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

  On your idea of keeping some basic information, NOR already has a section Wikipedia:No original research#Related policies. There are similar sections in WP:V and WP:NPOV. We could add a similar summary of WP:PSTS to that section, or use a Wikipedia:Summary style approach to shorten what's in the ==Using sources== section, with a {{Main}} link to the new policy page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:11, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

• This has felt out of place for a while. They are related, but not any more than WP:V and WP:NPOV. WhatamIdoing is right that we can link to related policies and keep a short explanation of whatever is relevant. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:16, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Credit tally

High-quality source X says Actor Y made films (plural, number unspecified) for Studio Z. Within the context of a given Wikipedia article, the specific number is pertinent. Is tallying up the relevant credits in IMDb (or an authoritative print filmography) to specify the number a routine calculation or original research? 24.90.253.80 (talk) 00:40, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Can we sidestep the question and instead provide a list of the films? That is, avoid saying Joe Film made three films for Studio Z and instead write something like Joe Film made several films for Studio Z: Amazing Alice, Bob's Business, and Carl v. Carol. This could be awkward if the list is very long, but there is a lower risk of an OR challenge from it.

If you need a number, then it's usually okay to find a filmography that lists the films and count them up. Searching in different places to find all the films you can carries a bigger risk (both in terms of policy compliance and in terms of getting the wrong answer, which would be a very big problem). WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:16, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

directly related to the topic of the article

Can someone point me to the content in the body of this policy that justifies the bolded wording? I see no need for it.

To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support the material being presented.

It makes sense to guard against coatracking "off-topic" content into an article, but what does the wording above have to do with OR, rather than just to off-topic content? The essence of OR is "content not based on RS". It is another matter when unsourced or reliably-sourced content is placed in the wrong article. It just doesn't belong there. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I have seen cases (but can't recall) where editors use a whole host of RSes to come to a conclusion about a topic where none of those RSes actually make that claim directly, typically trying to claim some statement must be included by way of analogy, or often in cases of controversial material that is not seen as controversial by RSes, by pointing out analogies of other cases or other types of faulty logic to make their case. That falls out of the WP:SYNTH aspect, which is its own part of the OR policy. Masem (t) 00:03, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that is an abuse of sources that can certainly be OR. SYNTH is one type of such abuse. I see that as related to our reasonable requirement that sources must "directly support the material being presented." I'm referring to something else. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:37, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I've never liked this sentence as I don't think its meaning is clear. The meaning of "directly supports" is crystal clear and at the heart of NOR. But how can a source "directly support" a statement yet not be "directly related" to it? The only times I've seen "directly related" employed in a content dispute is by someone who argues that even though a statement is explicitly provided by a source, the source as a whole concerns another topic and so isn't "directly related". I think this is a misuse of the sentence, but what is an example of a proper usage that wouldn't be equally served by just having "directly support"? Zero^talk 01:39, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

A hypothetical example would be that someone would want to argue that specific actions Russia has done are war crimes, by way of citing numerous academic sources that point out that other similar acts in past wars were considered war crimes (directly supporting the information), but not a word from RSes that state that Russia's acts are also considered war crimes. The editor is creating inappropriate OR that while the material directly supports the information, it does not directly reference the topic. Masem (t) 02:06, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I would say that's a case where the source does not directly support the statement, but only provides a basis for an argument. The statement "Russia committed war crimes" requires the argument part, which would be OR. Zero^talk 03:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I would find that there are editors that would state that saying "here's all these RSes that said if a country did X those are war crimes" to justify "Russia doing X is a war crime", justifying that the RSes talking about war crimes are "directly related", presuming we're talking an article like the Ukraine-Russian war. The lack of any source to connect "Russia doing X" to being a war crime is certainly a basis of argument but I've seen editors try to logic this approach on other topics. I know this is all covered by the principle of SYNTH, but that's what I'm seeing in the lede is trying to capture briefly the section of SYNTH in the lede. Masem (t) 15:25, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

As a second hypothetical but also of what I've reminded of what I've seen before, say we have a high quality RS that is a focus on a person X, likely a critique of their political or ideological position, which is 100% valid to use on the article about X. But within that we get a line like "Like Y, X shares (this view)." where Y is a different person that is only mentioned briefly in that context. In that case, that RS would not be sufficient to use to justify "Y has (this view)" on the article page about Y because the article, while mentioning Y, is not directly about the topic. Masem (t) 15:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Masem: I agree that we should devalue sources that support some text only by passing mention. Once I had a dispute about the use of a historical claim made in passing in a newspaper cooking column. The question here is whether the words "directly related" in the policy are intended to indicate this issue. If so, it isn't clear enough and needs expanding on rather than relying on editors to grasp the proper intention of those two words. Zero^talk 00:08, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

That's my point: You go to the body in the SNYTH and the "directly related" language is right there. It is not like that is magically appearing out of nowhere here. Masem (t) 01:49, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Masem, that exact language is not found at the SYNTH section. The lead is the only place where that wording appears. Maybe you're thinking of some synonyms that mean the same thing? If so, please quote them here. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:17, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Quoting from SYNTH ""A and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article." Masem (t) 15:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay, now I see what you mean. The wording in the lead, which is what I'm discussing, covers two things, whereas the SYNTH wording discusses only the first of the two.

LEAD: "sources that are directly related to the (1) topic of the article and directly support the (2) material being presented."

SYNTH: "source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article."

Their mentions seem to be about very different topics. LEAD is about "related to the topic" and SYNTH is about the "same argument concerning the topic." The first is a meta aspect and the second is a very specific aspect. The first is about "Trump" in an article about Trump with no regard to any specifics, IOW the source must mention Trump. The second is about an intricate argument within the article about Trump, IOW the source must mention Trump and connect him to the argument about him. Slightly related, but not always.

The source should support the argument, and that requires it already is related to the topic of the article, IOW the part about "related to the topic of the article" seems superfluous. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:20, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Suppose there is a Wikipedia article about Russia and consider the following case.

Russia targeted civilians in the war.[1] Targeting civilians is a war crime.[2]

where RS [1] is about Russia and RS [2] is not about Russia, yet it directly supports its sentence. This would be OR because it implies that Russia committed war crimes without an RS saying so. Having the phrase "published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article" would prevent this OR. Whereas just having the phrase "directly support[b] the material being presented" would allow the OR because the RS [2] directly supports the material that it is associated with, which is the sentence, "Targeting civilians is a war crime." Bob K31416 (talk) 09:47, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

That example is a textbook case of SYNTH. Ref [1] is a good source for the first sentence and ref [2] is a good source for the second sentence. Neither is problematic in isolation. However, the juxtaposition of the two sentences is clearly intended to tell the reader that Russia committed war crimes, which is not directly supported by either source. Zero^talk 10:08, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I wrote. Could you explain more. Bob K31416 (talk) 10:42, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

In your example, the (unstated but clearly intended) conclusion that Russia committed war crimes is NOT directly supported by either of the sources. So this use of sources runs afoul of the "directly supports" rule (not to mention the SYNTH rule). It is not a case where the "directly related" part makes a difference. I'll poset that there is no case where the addition of "directly related" to the policy outlaws anything that is not already outlawed and, moreover, that the concept of "directly related" is too vague to be useful. Zero^talk 10:54, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I think my original message refutes what you are saying, so I'll leave it at that, except to say that "published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article" has been a part of the policy's lead for at least 14 years and I have found it useful for understanding the policy. Bob K31416 (talk) 11:07, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Bob K31416, your example is an excellent demonstration of SYNTH. That part of NOR is good and explains how one type of source abuse is covered by NOR. There are other types of source abuse that cause other problems. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:05, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Val. Is this question, related to an ongoing discussion at Donald Trump's talkpage? GoodDay (talk) 15:18, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

User:GoodDay, it is triggered by that discussion, but because it is more of a policy question that has implications everywhere, I chose to discuss it here. We can't change policy at Talk:Donald Trump. If this results in a change that will affect that discussion, then we can deal with it there. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:00, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay, lets approach this from a slightly different angle. Would we lose anything by eliminating that phrase? In what situation is that phrase actually necessary for THIS policy?

To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support the material being presented.

How's that? I don't see that OFF-TOPIC is directly related to this policy. It's just off-topic and should not happen. Not all forms of source abuse are NOR. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:11, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps this is the only policy level P&G that I know of that warns about using off-topic sources to try to justify content in articles. It is nutshell'ing this line in the body " "A and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article." Masem (t) 16:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It's explaining WP:SYNTH. We should not combine sources about A (the topic of the article) and B (sources not talking about the topic of the article) to imply C (some claim that B is somehow relevant to the article topic). Crossroads ^-talk- 23:06, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

This particular phrase, as written, does not explain SYNTH, though based on the archived discussions, I think it might have been intended to.

What it actually says is that editors shouldn't use sources that aren't about the subject of the article (e.g., do not cite medical journals while writing Box office, even if a journal article mentions box offices; do not use film industry magazines while writing SARS-CoV-2, even if a magazine article mentions that virus). A specific warning to "generally" avoid passing mentions was added around the same time. That line probably belongs to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Balancing aspects ("if all you can find is a passing mention, it probably doesn't belong in the article"), not to NOR anyway.

As these points are made elsewhere, and as the application is more general than absolute (e.g., if you are writing a sentence about the effect of pandemic lockdowns on movie theaters, you might cite a variety of sources about lockdown effects, and not exclusively sources that are primarily about Box office or SARS-CoV-2), I don't think that the words "are directly related to the topic of the article and" truly need to be in the first paragraph of the policy. SYNTH will still be 100% banned even if those exact words aren't in the lead. I am slightly inclined to remove those words, for less confusion and more concision. This should be understood as changing the wording but not the meaning of the overall policy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:19, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think it adds anything and also agree that nothing is lost by deleting those words. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:45, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

While I acknowledge the technical arguments for removing that text (in addition to keeping the text shorter, removing the text makes the policies more composable), I think there are practical benefits to keeping it. Synthesis is one of the more insidious challenges we have when building a neutral encyclopedia and whatever we can do to briefly explain our long-standing position to editors is beneficial. I agree that we should not bloat our policies yet IMO the clarity provided to our editors for this particular issue outweighs the minor loss of conciseness. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 04:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

?? SYNTH is untouched by this. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:39, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Orange Suede Sofa: From the discussion here, it is clear that even highly experienced editors cannot agree on the purpose of those words. So far from clarifying anything, the evidence is that they are more confusing than helpful. SYNTH is far better described by its own section. Zero^talk 06:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Bingo! The SYNTH explanation is good. We are not supposed to abuse sources by making content not backed by those sources. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 06:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• OK, I have a "directly related" question. Take a case where information changes over time. Take theory X which was originally, widely viewed as not true but was later found to be true. How do we deal with a case where a person/organization is declared by RSs to be wrong for supporting the theory but later RSs don't reverse that claim when the new information comes out? How does "directly related" apply? Consider Mr Smith's BLP says he was wrong when he claimed X. This is cited to sources that directly make the claim. A few years later understanding shifts on the topic. We don't have new sources saying "Mr Smith turned out to be correct". What should be done? One option would be remove the accusation. That might be OK but it kind of buries that the person was publicly declared wrong. Essentially this would be saying the original RSs are no longer due because they are not accurate. Another thing that might happen is an editor says "Mr Smith was found to be correct [source that says theory is true but doesn't mention Smith]. My feeling is this option is synth since the source didn't say "Smith was right". A third option is to simply state "Theory X has since been found to be correct [source stating X is true]". This is true to the sources but opens the question, is this a form of synth since it clearly implies Smith was right even though no sources state that. However, the actual claims are true to the sources and facts about the theory are, in my view, DUE when they relate directly to the nexus of Smith and the theory. Would removing "directly related" change this? Springee (talk) 13:50, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I would say that in the scenario you lay out, a source saying that Mr. Smith is wrong should be considered obsolete… and thus no longer reliable except as a primary source for saying “X thought that Smith was wrong”. However… I would also argue that mentioning X’s obsolete opinion is UNDUE, unless that opinion is noted by more modern sources. Thus, the correct action is to omit the discussion of Mr. Smith’s rightness/wrongness all together. What people in the past thought of him is now irrelevant. Blueboar (talk) 15:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• The issue is that SYNTH is widespread, and we should include clarification of it in the lead of this policy to remind editors to avoid it. Removing the phrase would IMO result in more cases of SYNTH popping up across the encyclopedia, which would just waste editor time. I strongly support keeping it if the choice is binary between keep or remove, but I'd also support removing and putting a clearer explanation of SYNTH in the lead. DFlhb (talk) 14:07, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  It won't have any effect on SYNTH, and it's not representing SYNTH anyway. The words being discussed say "directly related to the topic of the article".

  What that says is: Please go revert your edit today to Alt-lite, because the source you cited is "directly related" to reviewing a couple of books about Anti-fascism, which means that the source is not directly related to the subject of Alt-lite. Similarly, a bunch of sources in your edit to Mike Cernovich are "directly related" to other subjects and only mention him in passing, or not at all (example), so you should go revert that, too.

  If you care about SYNTH, you should be looking at the immediately previous sentence, which says "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  Being "wikistalked" (I'm kidding obviously!) by an editor I respect is an honor :)

  Very fair point. That exact thought actually occured to me as I edited these articles after posting here. I see the limitations of my reasoning: there are many ways to use sources that aren't directly related, yet are used in a SYNTH-compliant way. I've reviewed the discussion on Donald Trump about the Iran plane thing (that prompted this) and there's likewise no issues with how the sources are used there.

  I support removing the "directly related" passage. DFlhb (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you for the compliment, and also for reviewing that discussion, which I couldn't make myself read completely. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Trump

There is a discussion at Talk:Donald Trump#Airliner shot down that may benefit from editors familiar with this policy of No original research. Bob K31416 (talk) 10:05, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

"Secondary sources" extremely questionable!

The penetrating and annoying calls for "secondary sources" overlook the fact that these - if not illegally copied from some encyclopedia - are usually written by non-specialist journalists, and all too often with very little understanding and misleading interpretation of the facts. Perhaps you should take a look at the book "Factfullness". Hans J.J.G.Holm 2A02:8108:9640:1A68:31D1:F57B:3DCE:D718 (talk) 09:18, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia.

Newspaper articles are generally primary sources. Desirable secondary sources include things like a history book published by reputable academic press, or a review article in a good scientific journal. Of course you can't expect to find scholarly sources for popular culture, but in every subject, we're hoping to find a source that provides some sort of analysis. Even a simple compare-and-contrast analysis is helpful, so that an article can say things like "This team won more games than that team" or "This was the first full-length color movie filmed in Ruritania". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:46, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, Hans.

You need to appreciate the field you are in. Wikipedia is not journalism. Neither is it science. Wikipedia is history. The field is historiography.

In journalism and science, a primary source is quite a different thing to a primary source in historiography. Similarly, a secondary source. Read these articles, and their references. Unlike in journalism, a secondary source is not a second hand source. In historiography, a primary source contains the facts, and a secondary source contains opinion and contextualisation for the facts. A secondary source does not replace primary sources, but proves there are people who care about these facts, and gives contextualisation and other meaningful information about the facts. Through this construct, it follows that Wikipedia is not a collection of random facts.

- SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a collection of random facts??? I'm rather skeptical of this assertion. It sure feels like "a collection of random facts" quite accurately describes WP. That's consistent with the idea that ideally, there should be citations for each claim. Jimbo may have envisioned that WP shouldn't be a collection of random facts, but IMO, WP rules tend to make the "collection of random facts" an accurate characterization of WP. Fabrickator (talk) 09:17, 3ade of grass December 2022 (UTC)

Random facts would be if I bought a 40 year old telephone book at a garage sale and started adding people's old addresses and old phone numbers into the encyclopedia. Random facts would be the precise height and precise 3D location of every single blade of grass on my front lawn, and a comprehensive list of every single piece of junk mail I have ever received since my birth. But I do not try to add these types of facts because I exercise good editorial judgment. Your comments indicate that you do not really understand the concept of random facts, and by extension, do not understand Notability. That's OK, unless you hope to keep contributing to Wikipedia articles. Cullen328 (talk) 09:49, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The notability guideline only applies to the issue of whether the topic may have its own article, not to what content is suitable for inclusion in an article. Fabrickator (talk) 21:16, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Maps, OR, and SYNTHESIS

Many maps displayed on Wikipedia don't mention any source in their description: e.g., Eastern Orthodoxy in Europe, Tunisian Arabic, Hispano-Celtic languages, Iberian shrew, 16th-century Basque literature, Portuguese language. I assume they are WP:OR, even though some of them look more or less correct. I wonder:

1. Should we automatically remove WP:OR maps from articles? (at least if the author doesn't answer or cannot provide reliable sources)
2. If we cannot find a free map that can perfectly replace the removed that, how should we proceed?
   1. Would it be OR to create a map based on various text sources? or on various other maps? For instance, File:Tunisian dialect 1.png says it was done "by comparing the comtemporary linguistic works about Tunisian". Similarly, a detailed map of Eastern Orthodoxy in Europe would probably require to combine many sources from various countries, sometimes contradicting each other, into one map.
   2. How to avoid Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS?

A455bcd9 (talk) 22:09, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

User-made maps definitely should include one or more sources where the information used to create the map was pulled from, but otherwise making maps from multiple reliable sources should not be seen as OR otherwise. Masem (t) 22:49, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Isn’t this covered by WP:OI? Blueboar (talk) 22:56, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:OI is below "What is not original research" so it's not clear. It only says: "Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments". The maps I listed above do not stricto sensu introduce unpublished ideas or arguments. But they're not verifiable. On the other hand, WP:IMAGEPOL says that "user-made images may be wholly original" and gives two examples that don't provide any external sources: File:Conventional 18-wheeler truck diagram.svg and File:Checker_shadow_illusion.svg. So it seems that currently not all user-made images have to be sourced. So I would suggest adding something like:

• "User-made images such as graphs, charts, drawings, and maps must conform with Wikipedia's policies of reliability and verifiability: they must include in their description references of the reliable sources used to create them."

What do you think?

@Masem: "making maps from multiple reliable sources should not be seen as OR" => in practice I find it hard to avoid OR and SYNTHESIS. For instance, here are two maps of Arabic dialects in Algeria: Map A and Map B. Assuming (for the sake of the argument) that the two maps come from equally reliable sources and you want to create a map of Arabic dialects in Algeria: which one do you follow? which one do you include in an article? how do you map dialects from one map to the other one? you must likely need to use your own knowledge to guess that "Saharan Ksouri" and "Sahel Algerian" (map A) are part of what map B calls "Algerian Saharan Spoken Arabic" and draw a map that is a SYNTHESIS of the two with borders that are somewhat in the middle between those of Map A and Map B? (it's not only a theoretical problem as it's a discussion we currently have in Talk:Arabic#Proposal_to_Remove_Two_Maps). A455bcd9 (talk) 10:41, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

When you have conflicting information from two or more reliable sources, you have to figure out how to resolve it the same way if that was in prose just as if it was in a map. A map that managed to include both prior maps without changing information from either would be find, but synthesizing wholly new lines from the combination of the maps would be inappropriate. Masem (t) 14:24, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

It's way easier in prose as you can say "X thinks that way and Y thinks the other way". In a map, you cannot include information from let's say 3 different maps. So if "synthesizing wholly new lines from the combination of the maps would be inappropriate" then it means that in practice you need to follow only one map/source.

Should we add this somewhere? A455bcd9 (talk) 14:35, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

While I don't doubt that SYNTH can be violated using a map, a blanket one-source requirement would severely damage the usefulness of maps. As an example, a historical map of a region is enhanced by indicating modern borders (indicated as such). This helps the reader to understand what the map shows. It shouldn't be necessary for the map maker to find a single source map that shows everything. Zero^talk 01:35, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

You're right @Zero0000: I think overlapping/overlaying different maps is fine (e.g., historical events and modern borders). It would not be WP:SYNTH as it does not "imply a new conclusion". But what about synthesizing maps? If we have two sources for a historical map of a battle, one saying that one regiment was in region A and another one saying that the same regiment was in region B: can we put the regiment somewhere in the middle between A and B? Or do we have to stick to one source? (alternatively, we could indicate both positions and mention "according to source x" and "according to source y" in the legend and description, which would then be equivalent to overlay = OK). I suggest adding the following to WP:IMAGEOR:

• "User-made images such as graphs, charts, drawings, and maps must conform with Wikipedia's core content policies of verifiability and "No original research". They must include in their description references to the reliable sources used to create them. When multiple sources are combined to create an image, this image shouldn't describe something not explicitly stated by any source. Improper editorial synthesis include synthesizing new lines from the combination of two maps. Acceptable editorial synthesis include overlaying modern borders (indicated as such) on a historical map."

A455bcd9 (talk) 06:35, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm dubious. WP:V and WP:NOR are complex policy pages and there is a danger of unforeseen consequences. Also, remember that articles are constructed by taking material from different sources and placing them beside each other. Mere juxtaposition is not synthesis. Synthesis is the drawing of original conclusions from the combination of sources, but trying to apply that to a map sounds like a good source of disputes. It is already open to editors to dispute that a map is accurate or suitable for a page, without the need for new rules. It would be ok to write that map makers should (not must, so as to not immediately disqualify many existing maps) record the reliable sources for their map. Zero^talk 07:45, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree about the risk of unforeseen consequences. So what about: "User-made images such as graphs, charts, drawings, and maps should conform with Wikipedia's core content policies of verifiability and no original research: their file description page should mention their sources and they should avoid improper editorial synthesis."? A455bcd9 (talk) 12:19, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

• I think this is complex and has a lot of facets. My two primary concerns here are:

(1) Reliable maps are typically copyrighted, and tracing them would create a copyvio. This severely limits the precision of user-made maps and it should stop us from using a single map as a source -- ever. I do feel that there are sound, copyright-related reasons why editor-made maps should always be compiled from several source maps.

(2) The scale of the source maps is a key consideration. For example, an historic building might appropriately be labelled on a 1:1,250 scale map, but if we label the same building on a 1:10,000 scale map, then we're implying that it's very important.—S Marshall T/C 16:53, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

(1) According to WP:IMAGEPOL: "User-made images can also include the recreation of graphs, charts, drawings, and maps directly from available data, as long as the user-created format does not mimic the exact style of the original work. Technical data is uncopyrightable, lacking creativity, but the presentation of data in a graph or chart can be copyrighted, so a user-made version should be sufficiently different in presentation from the original to remain free." So I think the copyright issue is okay. Also, if you assume that there's a copyvio risk, compiling several source maps wouldn't remove that threat, it would just increase it.

(2) This is probably already covered by WP:WEIGHT? "This rule applies not only to article text but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, templates, and all other material as well." A455bcd9 (talk) 17:53, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Not all reliable maps are copyrighted, if they are just presenting factual data. They can copyright aspects like color choices or the like, but elements like roads, towns, borders, etc are not copyrightable as raw data. Masem (t) 18:13, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

The Ordnance Survey begs to differ from you! Their maps, at least the ones published before 2015, are Crown Copyright. A map isn't raw data: it's a large quantity of data compiled and presented in a human-readable way.—S Marshall T/C 18:58, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

(ec) I agree with the good points made by Masem, S Marshall and Zero. Also, maps are highly useful in articles and a new extremely strict interpretation would virtually eliminate maps in Wikipedia. I think that the status quo strikes a good balance. Finally, having gotten into it pretty deep on the IP side on a few articles with some of the best wiki IP experts, maps that pass an extremely broad and strict interpretation of synthesis are likely to violate a strict interpretation of IP laws because they are copying, not transforming the scheme/content. IMO the best approach is the status quo.North8000 (talk) 18:05, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

@North8000:

1. I'm not suggesting "a new extremely strict interpretation". Just to add that maps shouldn't be OR. For instance, we've been discussing in Talk:Arabic#Proposal_to_Remove_Two_Maps since August 2022 to remove a map that was pure OR. The debate would have been settled long ago if we had an explicit policy on this.
2. Is the "status quo" satisfying? I don't think so: there are poor quality maps that are pure OR, unverifiable, and full of errors in important articles: Eastern Orthodoxy in Europe, Tunisian Arabic, Hispano-Celtic languages, Iberian shrew, 16th-century Basque literature, Portuguese language.
3. On the other hand, I don't suggest any strict interpretation about WP:SYNTHESIS. For instance, maps in FAC Punic Wars and Abd al-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn al-Ash'ath are great and all correctly sourced: File:First Punic War 264 BC v3.png, File:Sicilia - prima guerra punica key en.svg, File:First Punic War 237 BC.jpg, File:Map of Rome and Carthage at the start of the Second Punic War 2.svg, File:Second Punic war (cropped).png, File:Caliphate 750.jpg, File:Iraq ca. 875.svg. I would love all maps on the English Wikipedia to follow the same standards.

A455bcd9 (talk) 18:17, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I think that it's unfortunate that we're blending OR and synthesis in the same discussion. OR is where the "synthesis" term comes from but it is also a duplication/reiteration of wp:ver. If something looks questionable from an accuracy standpoint it should be challengeable / removable from the article. This has more of a relation to wp:ver but by necessity a less strict application of it for images . North8000 (talk) 18:28, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

@North8000: you're right. That's why at the very least I think we should add "User-made images such as graphs, charts, drawings, and maps should conform with Wikipedia's core content policies of verifiability and no original research: their file description page should mention their sources." Then, the issue of synthesis is more complex... A455bcd9 (talk) 18:31, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I think that there is a flaw in that (core content policies are for text so this would be modifying them, not applying them) and also that it would go too far. But something that implements what I described in my previous post might be good.North8000 (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Core content policies are not for text only @North8000:

• WP:OR's introduction: "The prohibition against original research means that all material added to articles must be verifiable in a reliable, published source, even if not already verified via an inline citation."
• WP:V's introduction: "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable."

A455bcd9 (talk) 18:49, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

• I think there needs to be citations provided when they are used on wikipedia otherwise anyone with a good graphics design capability can make any map and make it look professional, while being deceptive to readers. The readers have a right to know where this stuff is being generated from. I have experienced this on graphs on demographics and other kinds of research.Ramos1990 (talk) 18:37, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

• As has been mentioned before, WP:V and WP:NOR are complex policy pages; any change to them should be done for the right reasons and not just to settle an ongoing dispute (which is the prime purpose of this discussion). M.Bitton (talk) 21:33, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

  Please Wikipedia:Assume good faith: the purpose of this discussion isn't to settle an ongoing dispute but for me to better understand how core content policies apply to maps. By the way, based on the above discussion, updating these policies isn't necessary stricto sensu as we already have:

  • WP:OR: "The prohibition against original research means that all material added to articles must be verifiable in a reliable, published source, even if not already verified via an inline citation."
  • WP:V: "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable."
  • WP:IMAGEPOL: "Diagrams and other images [...] In such cases, it is required to include verification of the source(s) of the original data when uploading such images."
  • Help:File description page: "What pre-existing sources (free images, photos, etc.) were used as inputs?"
  • WP:CITE: "For an image or other media file, details of its origin and copyright status should appear on its file page."
  • WP:RS: "Like text, media must be produced by a reliable source and be properly cited."

  But it would be easier to make things more explicit when it comes to user-created illustrations. A455bcd9 (talk) 22:01, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

  Assuming good faith (which I do) does not prevent one from telling it like it is, especially when the consequences are far reaching. This whole thing (presented from a well chosen angle) is about you trying to settle an ongoing dispute in which you are involved. You're not just trying to understand how the policies and guidelines work, you're trying to alter them. M.Bitton (talk) 22:10, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

  No, that's not the case. But if you want to believe it, I'm afraid I can't do anything to prove my good faith. I feel sorry for you. Cheers, A455bcd9 (talk) 22:25, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

  I feel sorry for you. There's no reason to make personal comments. M.Bitton (talk) 00:44, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

  I apologize @M.Bitton. A455bcd9 (talk) 07:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you. Apology accepted. M.Bitton (talk) 19:59, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

A455bcd9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

@A455bcd9: As I just said on your user talk, I don't see a consensus for removal here, so it is premature and unsupported for you to be going through the 'pedia and removing all these maps, with only the edit summary of, "OR". What I see here is not only a lack of agreement with you, but you continually repeating yourself. I suggest you WP:DROPTHESTICK and move on to something more productive. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:26, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi @CorbieVreccan: I indeed removed a few images that didn't have any sources on Commons and marked others with Template:Imagefact (the equivalent of "Citation needed" for images). I'll stop doing it right now as I'm afraid your message may be a threat but I do not understand why my actions were problematic. I initiated this discussion to better understand our policies and how they apply to maps. During this discussion, it appeared that WP:OR and WP:V apply to "all material" and that WP:IMAGEPOL, WP:CITE, and WP:RS already require images to cite references. So I got my answer. (the question about WP:SYNTHESIS remains though) Please let me know if I misunderstood something. Cheers, A455bcd9 (talk) 22:34, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I would definitely not go removing images on that basis. If there is something appears incorrect about a map I would bring that up in talk at the article and if it both appears that there is an error and it's unsourced, I think that it would be pretty easy to get an agreement to remove the image from the article. IMO that is the defacto status quo for images/diagrams etc. in the fuzzy Wikipedia ecosystem. I also don't agree that your 22:25, 27 November 2022 response refuted what I said. Two of the five items listed do not even realte to what you are asserting. Also, when I said that the core policies are written for text I meant in their structure and how they are applied in the fuzzy Wikipedia ecosystem. For example, a piece of text may "contain" 2-3 statements; a map may "contain" thousands of statements and we can't be saying that it fails because one of those thousands is unsourced.North8000 (talk) 23:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I added {{Imagefact}} most of the time when I identified a problem. Sometimes I removed the image, I may have been too WP:BOLD... However, I don't think "that is the defacto status quo for images/diagrams etc. in the fuzzy Wikipedia ecosystem": for instance, WP:FAC requires all images to be properly sourced for the article to be promoted. Also, what are the "Two of the five items listed [that] do not even [related] to what [I was] asserting"? A455bcd9 (talk) 23:33, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I feel like this whole thing is based on a misunderstanding of the policy. Wikipedia:Uncited does not mean unverifiable. All material needs to be verifiable, with the emphasis on the "-able". That means that someone (not necessarily you) is able to verify that it came from some source. Cited material can be unverifiable; uncited material can be verifiable.

As for the rest, I fully agree with the concerns about unintended side effects. This is a difficult area and changes need not only careful thought, but a review of how it would affect dozens or hundreds of different subject areas. I see lots of potential for sweeping declarations to be rejected as stupid (we don't need a source cited for "the space on this map is called the Atlantic Ocean" or for "This graph shows an exponential curve"), and a gift to certain kinds of anti-science POV pushers ("You can't convince me that COVID-19 exists, so you can't use any diagrams of the virus's structure unless you jump through these bureaucratic hoops"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:55, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: yes, the question is "Does WP:V apply to user-made maps in the same way it applies to text?" (i.e. "must be verifiable", and if "challenged or likely to be challenged" => "must include an inline citation to a reliable source"). In any case, application of the policy shouldn't be stricter for images. (And there's also the issue of Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS, but that one is even more complex...) A455bcd9 (talk) 07:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I think that images, including maps, should be examined with respect to the main reason why it's in the article, and not with respect to anything else. For example, imagine that an article says (in plain old text) that these three molecules combine to form a protein spike on the surface of a viral particle. The image is added to illustrate the idea of three molecules combining in a single structure. This image is not only verifiable, but already cited (in the article text). Objections about anything else (e.g., a silly objection over an educationally appropriate use of false color or a more serious objection to an error in a different/irrelevant part of the image) should be rejected. (Of course, if you can swap in an image that is equally good for the local purpose and also doesn't have an error in another part, then that's great.)

Maps have some of the same problems as any other image:

1. Sometimes, the image already is a reliable source (i.e., not user-made).
2. Strong sourcing is impossible for most user-created images. There are no reliable sources that say "Yup, the photo she uploaded to Commons really is the neighborhood she said that it is", nor any reliable sources that say "Yup, the map she uploaded to Commons really is the neighborhood she said that it is".
   Worse, even if an external source later endorses that image as being accurate, someone's going to claim that it's still all wrong and bad and unverifiable, because having a reliable source saying that the image is correct after you've uploaded it would be WP:CIRCULAR, and someone else will say that having the reliable source endorse the image before you upload it will be rejected as the source buying a pig in a poke. The game is rigged against image verification.
3. Sometimes, the user-made image is the kind of "Paris is in France" or "Here is a street sign that says Maple Street" simplicity that we don't actually want sources for.

Maps have at least three specific problems:

1. We shouldn't have different standards for a "user-drawn map" and a "user-labeled aerial photograph" that would convey the same information.
2. In areas with geopolitical disputes, it's possible to cite any outcome you want.
3. Sometimes, citing the image would require an unreasonable number of sources.

To give you an example of this last one, let me tell you that a couple of decades ago, long before Wikipedia existed, I saw a map being produced. The sources were basically an aerial photograph (which he was turning into a line-art drawing) and the signs on the buildings (which he used to label all the different buildings in the photo). If we had a copy of that on Commons, the list of citations would have been a photograph in the local history museum plus one {{cite sign}} for every business in town. That would be fully cited. The information even would have been true (at the time), rather than merely being just verifiable. But providing those sources would have no practical value.

In your dispute, I suggest that you spend a while thinking deeply about why you care about these particular maps. What would you personally do differently if the source(s) were added on the Commons page tomorrow? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer @WhatamIdoing: I'm not sure what to conclude from it though 😅.

However, to answer your last point: I don't have a dispute. The question emerged from a discussion here about how to improve an existing map (that already has a source). Do we need sources to fix mistakes identified by contributors? What kind of sources? How to avoid WP:SYNTHESIS? etc.

And then, besides this specific example, I wondered what the general policy was as on the one hand, WP:FAC has strong sourcing requirements for user-made maps, while on the other hand you can find unsourced maps in many articles. A455bcd9 (talk) 22:18, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Evidence-based-mapping

I've just discovered @Nederlandse Leeuw's essay Commons:Commons:Evidence-based mapping where they cite two deletion discussion precedents (Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 May 28#Template:Legality of zoophilia by country or territory and Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 August 16#Template:World laws pertaining to animal sentience) and conclude:

• Maps that are based largely on original research (WP:OR) should be removed from English Wikipedia, and any templates which embed such maps should be deleted.
• Maps are a visual representation of data, and data must be sourced (WP:UNSOURCED). Therefore, lack of sourcing is a valid rationale for deletion of templates that embed them, and removing such maps from English Wikipedia.
• Maps that synthesise data from multiple sources in order to reach a conclusion not found in any source, or bring together data from multiple sources that are not compatible (e.g. population data in which children were only included in some sources), commit WP:SYNTH. Therefore, such maps may be removed from English Wikipedia, and any templates which embed such maps may be deleted.
• Merely bringing together data from multiple compatible sources, without extrapolating one's own conclusions from them, is not prohibited in WP:SYNTH or anywhere else, and so no valid reason for removal of maps or deletion of map-embedding templates from English Wikipedia. Therefore, this is a valid way of making maps on Commons and using them on English Wikipedia.
• No conclusion was reached about whether sources should be listed in the 'Source' parameter in the map's description page on Commons (as this essay recommends), inside the English Wikipedia article or map-embedding template in the form of references (as some Wikipedians argued), or both.

Is Nederlandse Leeuw's conclusion above representative of the consensus on the English Wikipedia? A455bcd9 (talk) 20:43, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

(found nothing at that link but let's assume that what you describe is in an essay) From a process standpoint, clearly no, an essay derived from two template deletion discussions is many levels away from the process that would be required to be considered to be a Wikipedia consensus. North8000 (talk) 20:54, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I've just fixed the link @North8000.

By the way, MOS:IMAGES also says: "Each image has a corresponding description page, which documents the image's source, author and copyright status; descriptive (who, what, when, where, why) information; and technical (equipment, software, etc.) data useful to readers and later editors. [...] Reliable sources, if any, may be listed on the image's description page. Generally, Wikipedia assumes in good faith that image creators are correctly identifying the contents of photographs they have taken. If such sources are available, it is helpful to provide them. This is particularly important for technical drawings, as someone may want to verify that the image is accurate."

Does this guideline for technical drawings also applies to maps ("as someone may want to verify that the image is accurate")? A455bcd9 (talk) 21:05, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Your questions keep representing ginning up things that you find into things that they aren't and then asking for a "yes" answer that your creation is the rule. You already received your answer on what common and accepted practice is You should just listen to it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:21, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

But what is accepted practice @North8000? If I sum up other contributors' answers it seems to be something like "User-made maps should cite sources but we shouldn't modify the policies because it's a complex issue and we want to avoid unintended consequences":

• Masem: "User-made maps definitely should include one or more sources where the information used to create the map was pulled from"
• Blueboar: "Isn’t this covered by WP:OI?"
• Zero0000: "It would be ok to write that map makers should (not must, so as to not immediately disqualify many existing maps) record the reliable sources for their map."
• S Marshall: "I think this is complex and has a lot of facets"
• Ramos1990: "I think there needs to be citations provided when they are used on wikipedia"
• M.Bitton: "WP:V and WP:NOR are complex policy pages"

A455bcd9 (talk) 21:52, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Just chiming in here as A455bcd9 tagged me and cited part of my Commons essay "Evidence-based mapping". On the whole, North8000 is correct that the essay as such is just that: an essay. However, what I sought to do is take the first step towards a more comprehensive policy on the requirements of basing maps on evidence. For that, I've gathered all sorts of English Wikipedia & Wikimedia Commons policies, guidelines, rules, precedents, conventions, plus my own suggestions, in that text; these have widely varying levels of consensus, from strong (official policies) to weak (my suggestions). And the excerpt quoted by A455bcd9 is derived from AfD precedents, which reflect a kind of jurisprudence consensus, if you will. And the first two points cited therein answer A455bcd9's first question in the positive: Should we automatically remove WP:OR maps from articles? (at least if the author doesn't answer or cannot provide reliable sources). Yes, we should. The two precedents clearly state we should per WP:OR and WP:UNSOURCED.

To answer A455bcd9's second question Would it be OR to create a map based on various text sources? or on various other maps?: It depends on whether all sources for all the data that have been used for the map are all mentioned clearly and accurately, whether these data are compatible, and as long as no conclusions are drawn that are not mentioned in any of the cited sources per WP:SYNTH (except for simple calculations per WP:CALC). This is also stated in the third and fourth point of the quoted essay excerpt. These are not just my opinions, these are relevant map precedents based on some of English Wikipedia's core policies. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:03, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

PS: To add to that: some of the templates that were nominated for deletion embedded maps that I had created based on multiple but compatible, clearly and accurately cited sources. The community approved of my evidence-based mapping practices, and kept those templates which embedded my properly sourced maps, and deleted a bunch of templates embedding maps with no or poor sourcing.

Also note the difference between English Wikipedia and Commons: Although it takes a very high threshold to have a map deleted from Commons (as it values free artistic expression without copyright violation above all else, including accuracy and verifiability), the threshold for removing an unsourced OR map from English Wikipedia is very low (as it values accuracy and verifiability above free artistic expression). In other words, you can make all the maps you want without even trying to support your claims with sources and then upload them to Commons, but don't expect English Wikipedia to accept your rubbish maps inside its articles and templates. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:18, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

PPS: I should add that I am not in favour of automatically removing unsourced maps, but on a case-by-case basis. After all, if a user sees an unsourced map, but thinks it is valuable, they can look for and add the sources the map was probably based on or could be based on, perhaps improving the map in the process. I've been in that position several times. Unsourced maps aren't necessarily worthless (so I agree with Zero0000 that existing maps should not be immediately disqualified), but their presence on English Wikipedia should be tolerated with caution, and sourcing should be provided ASAP, depending on how important/controversial the unsourced information is. Unsourced maps with highly controversial information, e.g. about what is legal or illegal to do in a certain country or region and thus could influence the behaviour of people who read Wikipedia, should be removed immediately according to the zoophilia AfD. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:39, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@Nederlandse Leeuw: yes, WP:V should apply to images in the same way it applies to text: we don't automatically delete unsourced (or poorly sourced) sentences. We would first tag them with Template:Citation needed, try to find a source, modify the text to match the sources found if necessary, or start a discussion on the talk page. (Unless the unsourced text is obviously inaccurate and in that case it's better to be bold and delete it right away. For images, we can also immediately replace an unsourced one by a sourced alternative.). A455bcd9 (talk) 07:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, generally speaking I agree with you. Of course, there is not always an alternative image/map readily available, and not everyone has the know-how or time to create one themselves. Until 2018 I always used Microsoft Paint (a simple but primitive and outdated programme as far as mapping is concerned) and switched to InkScape (which I still don't fully understand, but at least produces .svg images that are generally easy to edit, scale, translate etc.). Since then I've been able to produce some quality evidence-based law-related maps (if I do say so myself, but last year's AfDs confirmed the community appreciated my approach above the unsourced and controversial law-related mapping path). In that sense, replacing bad unsourced texts may be easier than replacing bad unsourced maps, although granted, writing text on English Wikipedia also requires some skill that many people do not have: sufficient mastery of the English language, a Wikipedia-like encyclopedic style and tone, and complying to all our policies, guidelines, precedents, conventions etc. Therefore, a case-by-case approach is best: when a map (or a text) is unsourced, but plausibly accurate, we can (A) try and fix it ourselves, or (B) add a {{datasource missing}} or {{citation needed}} template respectively in hopes that the creator/author or another user will come along to fix it for us, unless (C) the map or text is so bad that it should be removed immediately. Law-related maps might perhaps be given a similar status to texts in a WP:BLP; people reading Wikipedia should be able trust maps about what they are and aren't legal to do in a given country or region, especially in the domain of criminal law. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:14, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

PS: With regards to maps portraying the distribution of the usage of languages or the adherence to religions per given territory, these tend to be cases where immediate removal is not necessary or warranted, depending on how inaccurate or unsourced / badly sourced the information is. When I encounter a map like File:OrthodoxyInEurope.png (your first example given), my standard approach is (B): adding a {{Datasource missing}} template if no sourcing or evidence is given, and perhaps even a {{Inaccurate-map-disputed}} template if I have got evidence to the contrary. But in order to be (C) removed immediately from English Wikipedia, I must have indications that the map is significantly misleading, perhaps intentionally, e.g. for reasons of ethnic, religious or linguistic nationalism (incompatible with WP:NPOV and WP:SOAPBOX). For examples of this kind, I refer to relatively recent AfDs: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eastern Orthodox Slavs Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muslim Slavs Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/North Slavs. File:OrthodoxyInEurope.png might also be removed from English Wikipedia for this reason if there are indications that this map was made not for informative or educational purposes, but for some sort of political message about how all people in a given territory "belong" to a certain religion (rather than a majority or a specific percentage, which is not indicated anywhere in the description), which might or might not be the case here. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:44, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree File:OrthodoxyInEurope.png seems okay-ish. The worst part is that there's no legend, so it's unclear why some areas aren't colored (e.g., Tatarstan in Russia) even though they have large Orthodox populations (but probably not the majority of the population). On the other hand it's super fine-grained in Bulgaria to exclude towns with Bulgarian Turks. Ideally we would create a new map citing WP:RS.

Anyway, have we reached a consensus on the following questions:

• Does WP:V apply to user-made maps?
• Does WP:OR apply to user-made maps?
  • If yes, in practice, how to avoid WP:SYNTHESIS when building maps?

A455bcd9 (talk) 16:48, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

The roads projects used to use a process to create SVG maps similar to Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Maps task force/Tutorial, based on GIS data. At FAC they sometimes did ask us if the sources were declared on the Commons page, and that was generally it. I appreciate that this probably will not work for every application described here. (And I say used to, because since then we have shifted to dynamic maps). --Rschen7754 19:23, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• The answers to A455bcd9's questions are:-

1) Yes, WP:V and WP:OR are core content policies that apply to everything displayed on a rendered mainspace Wikipedia page.

2) If the image is hosted on Wikipedia and you think it violates a core content policy, either move it to Commons or begin a FFD.

3) If the image is hosted on Commons and you think it violates a core content policy, unlink it so it doesn't appear on a Wikipedia page. Unlinking is a bold edit to which WP:BRD applies, so if you're reverted, do not counter-revert but proceed to the talk page.

4) You probably weren't going to do this at all, and it's probably quite needless for me to say it, but long experience of Wikipedia is forcing me to type this out: proceed slowly and don't begin a map-related campaign or crusade of any kind.

5) WP:SYNTH is where you combine sources to reach, imply or suggest a conclusion that's not contained in any of those sources. Synth is a problem when, for example, editors combine statistics from two different studies. You should only do that if the studies are comparable (used a similar method, took place at a similar time, covered a geographically similar area, etc.)

That last paragraph needs some elaboration.

5a) When applying WP:SYNTH we need to bear in mind that editors must combine sources. WP:N requires multiple sources covering a topic. Editors are supposed to read all the sources, evaluate which are the best, and then generate an encyclopaedia article that summarizes what the sources say. We must allow editors to do this.

5b) SYNTH is only a problem if it leads the reader towards a novel conclusion that isn't found in the more reliable of the sources.

5c) An encyclopaedia article is an easily-readable summary. This means editors have to make their content accessible to the general public. A map that appears in an encyclopaedia article can and often should be a simplified version of more complex maps from the sources.

5d) Editors aren't allowed to trace copyrighted maps. This is more of a problem in some parts of the world than others, but for example the standard and most reliable maps of the UK, those by the Ordnance Survey, are often Crown Copyright. Because we can't trace maps, some inexactitude has to be tolerated.

Hope this helps.—S Marshall T/C 23:28, 3 December 2022 (UTC)