Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

Read this before proposing new criteria

Contributors frequently propose new criteria for speedy deletion. If you have a proposal to offer, please keep a few guidelines in mind:

1. The criterion should be objective: an article that a reasonable person judges as fitting or not fitting the criterion should be similarly judged by other reasonable people. Often this requires making the rule very specific. An example of an unacceptably subjective criterion might be "an article about something unimportant."
2. The criterion should be uncontestable: it should be the case that almost all articles that can be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to general consensus. If a rule paves the path for deletions that will cause controversy, it probably needs to be restricted. In particular, don't propose a CSD in order to overrule keep votes that might otherwise occur in AfD. Don't forget that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect if not carefully worded.
3. The criterion should arise frequently: speedy deletion was created as a means of decreasing load on other deletion methods such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion and Wikipedia:Proposed deletion. But these other methods are often more effective because they treat articles on a case-by-case basis and incorporate many viewpoints; CSD exchanges these advantages for the practical goal of expeditious, lightweight cleanup. If a situation arises rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and more fair to delete it via one of these other methods instead. This also keeps CSD as simple and easy to remember as possible.
4. The criterion should be nonredundant: if an admin can accomplish the deletion using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that. If this application of that rule is contested, consider discussing and/or clarifying it. Only if a new rule covers articles that cannot be speedy deleted otherwise should it be considered.

If you do have a proposal that you believe passes these guidelines, please feel free to propose it on this discussion page. Be prepared to offer evidence of these points and to refine your criterion if necessary. Consider explaining how it meets these criteria when you propose it. Do not, on the other hand, add it unilaterally to the CSD page.

Oft referenced pages

• Wikipedia:Deletion policy (talk)
• Wikipedia:Deletion log (talk and archives)
• Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators (talk)
• Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal (July 2005 proposal to expand WP:CSD)
• Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/New criteria (Summary of suggested changes as of November 2005)
• Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Explanations, explanations of the reasons for each criterion

A suggestion for encouraging and better enabling proper sourcing

Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification#A suggestion for encouraging and better enabling proper sourcing

Poll: Should the A7 list of article types be an exclusive list?

Additional discussion about A7 exclusivity

I have an observeration. Correct me if I'm wrong, but admins have always been able to delete anything at any time, in terms of software permssions. It was, prior to CSD, simply forbidden by policy. The details of the history I'm a little shaky on, but here's what I think I understand. The CSDs were created, with much hoo-hah and thrashing, to outline the cases where an admin could use the power they'd technically always had, the situations where policy against unilateral deletion was relaxed. This appears, over time, to have created a feeling of greater and greater freedom for admins to use their own discretion in cases where they never would have if CSD had never come into being. Of course, if it hadn't come into being there'd be other problems, and I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't have. I just think it's worth considering the background, as arguments to use A7 for anything-and-everything-that-fits-the-gist are essentially the same as allowing unilateral admin deletion (subject to DRV), and there's a reason that CSDs were supposed to be limited. SamBC(talk) 19:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Are those who support the (implicit or explicit) broadening of A7, or tolerance of its being stretched, supportive of the hypothetical permission for admins to unilaterally delete anything they think would never survive an AFD? SamBC(talk) 19:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be the wrong place to draw the line. Better, any deletion that is so clearly appropriate that it does not lead to debate over the process is fine. In other words, speedy whatever you want if no one minds. But ones that stretch the CSD rules have the potential, if nominally challenged, to end up in AfD anyway, which is worse than having simply gone through AfD in the first place. They aren't always challenged, of course, but for some kinds of deletions, the risk of further debate isn't worth the advantage of the unilateral action. Mangojuice^talk 05:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you're effectively correct. I think one should be careful about stepping outside the technical bounds of A7, as I think in general they're good guidelines as to when it's easy to tell if significance is asserted or not. On the other hand, I'm not going to hesitate a second to delete "My dog Fido is the coolest dog in the world, even though he barks a lot" because the A7 criteria do not include dogs. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. CSD shouldn't be a pair of shackles that prevents us from cleaning up the encyclopedia, it should be a guideline about what is and isn't appropriate to bypass the normal deletion process. Sometimes, things fall outside the stated boundaries, but are still good candidates for speedy deletion (such as the dog example, which I believe I've used 'round here before). EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The original intent of A7 was that only articles about real people that lacked a claim of notability would be eligible. Over time, and after much discussion, the other items in the list were added. Given that history, I think that list in A7 must be treated as exhaustive. Dsmdgold 02:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I've already outlined my reasons for supporting a "this is an exclusive list" clause - it serves as mere clarification and is not normative. We have failed to effectively separate the discussion of "is A7 an exclusive list" (yes) versus "should A7 be an exclusive list" (debatable). Broadening A7 is a perennial proposal that has been shot down in countless forms countless times on this talk page, and I don't believe you could gather consensus to broaden it now. Dcoetzee 21:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I've seen plenty of DRV opinions of the form "Overturn, A7 does not apply to articles on X". They don't always settle the outcome of the case, as many DRV regulars will consider whether the article has a shot at being improved enough to survive AFD, but they are regularly offered. Realistically, we've seen enough disagreement even for people about whether an article did contain an assertion that I would be very reluctant to extend A7 to topical areas where it isn't immediately obvious what is an assertion of notability. GRBerry 16:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Un-closing the poll on A7

User:Radiant closed the poll on A7 with the comment that "voting is evil", and drawing no conclusion.

I un-closed it, for 2 reasons:

• Polling is not voting. Asking people to identify themselves along a yes/no axis has given information that is useful.
• It's only been 3 days. I'm happy with closing the poll after 5 days as "clearly no consensus", but today seems too quick.

Comments welcome. --Alvestrand 15:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with not closing it, as I've stated in that section. Poll was probably a bad (or possibly inflammatory) term to use, but it's generated good discussion. SamBC(talk) 15:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, whatever you call it, it's a discussion. Though many people disfavor polls and the poll format can sometimes limit commentary by constraining it, closing polls on sight is rarely the constructive way to make that point. If polls are evil, so is marginalizing what people say. Having said that, most Wikipedia policy isn't appropriate to be voted on, and this question less so than others. If it were a vote the vote would have lost, and I find the argument for keeping flexibility more persuasively made than that for making a tightly defined list of types of pages suitable for A7 deletion. Nevertheless, people who do want to make the list exclusive make some good points about notability and inappropriate deletions that nominators and deleting administrators should take into account. We're close to beating a dead horse at this point. Wikidemo 17:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

• You miss the point, which is that Wikipedia policy is not created by voting on it. If you want an actual discussion, don't force people to be either "for" or "against" something. Pigeonholing is precisely what blocks consensus and compromise. >Radiant< 09:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think I missed that. I think we disagree on whether the poll format is useful or not. In this case, we have identified that neither of the two "simple" positions have any chance of achieving consensus without several people (among the 11 who have formed an opinion) changing their minds. I think that's useful to know, even though I don't have a suggestion (for now) for a text that COULD achive consensus. --Alvestrand 12:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No, we already knew that in advance. >Radiant< 13:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Just to point out, xFDs aren't votes, and they still use that format. It seems in line with general practice on wikipedia. Personally, I dislike it until there's something concrete to talk about, and the "motion" for that "poll" was extremely vague, but in general it seems that this sort of pseudo-poll structure is beneficial as long as people know that it isn't a vote. SamBC(talk) 13:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• No, it is not general practice except in structured processes like AFD/RFA (and they're somewhat controversial even there). In general the problem with this sort of pseudo-poll structure is that it pigeonholes juxtaposes opinions, making a compromise harder to achieve. >Radiant< 13:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've also seen it used during informal mediations, to very benficial effect, and I have the feeling I've seen it used usefully elsewhere. In any case, there seems no reason to "close" the parts of the section that aren't poll-structured, so I've moved the end of the boxing back to where there are actually poll-style comments/responses/!votes. SamBC(talk) 14:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• The contradictions by making it exclusive are more odd than just letting practice differ from the policy (there is always WP:IAR) or just a more liberal interpretation: an article on a non-notable band's non-notable album is probably a db-band A7 target (it's hard to say that the album exists in a vacuum and hence an article on it is also in someway about the band, too) and I wouldn't blush at people interpreting A7 "real person" as including animals, and even "real" as broadly as it appears in WP so it's real enough to be A7'ed - otherwise, one could just say that an article about dog or the imaginary friend you made up in school one day is just nonsense and dispose of it that way. Carlossuarez46 22:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
• I dont think the poll format was useful here. It has a very rare appropriate use--when a discussion with a great many participants has gotten particularly complicated and it is impossible to figure out what the current state of the consensus maybe. It then serves essentially as a re-factoring. The discussion needs to continue--this is the sort of discussion where it is particularly important for the participants to try to explain things to each other, because it would be extremely valuable to actually reach a common policy DGG (talk) 14:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no prohibition on conducting polls, and it's disruptive to close them summarily. I've added a comment to that effect in the "polling is not a substitute" guideline. People can and do conduct polls, among other ways of encouraging discussion and surveying opinions. When editors - usually outspoken and experienced ones - close polls single-handedly despite wide participation they are often simply disagreeing with and opposing the question being presented in favor of their own decision. Wikipedia may not be a democracy, but nor is it autocracy by forceful editing. This is hardly the greatest threat to the consensus process. A much bigger issue is the walled garden created by aggressive editors who have their way on the policy pages, thereby establishing rules among a very small group of policy wonks that are out of touch with the vast majority of people who are actually writing articles. Wikidemo 16:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

• Ah, so that's where you were coming from. You are incorrect - if polls can be summarily opened, they can likewise be summarily closed, and both are equally disruptive or not disruptive. Your assertions are incorrect; the point is simply that policy isn't subject to being voted upon, and we shouldn't be giving the appearance that it is. Given the high amount of talk page debate here, you can't seriously call this a walled garden. >Radiant< 09:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

As much as I would like to respond, I don't want to hog WP:CSD with a discussion on polling. This has come up numerous places and seems to be a live issue, so I asked the question in Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). Yes, I agree that this page is not a walled garden but some others are - also a good thing to discuss...elsewhere. It's one of the healthier policy pages, I think. At this point the poll is long gone so it's a moot point here. Sorry for getting sidetracked. Wikidemo 09:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Question of I7 list exclusivity already addressed

See the non-criteria section, which I just tightened up and numbered. Non-criterion #6 says that articles that don't assert significance, but aren't one of the categories listed in A7, cannot be deleted under A7. That effectively makes it an exclusive list. If you've been reading this, I don't really think it should be exclusive so I almost got into an edit war with myself over this one. But in the end I figured I didn't want to delete anything that's already on the policy page, so I just tightened up the wording and left it in there. If you do want to weaken or delete it, please pay attention to the numbering so we don't get a numbering problem. Wikidemo 08:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Minor contradiction between I6 and I7

Criterion I7 can apply even if there is a use rationale, so I6 can't make the blanket claim that if there is a use rationale then the image needs to be put on IFD. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I changed it back because I7 doesn't relate to the situation where a use rationale is provided but disputed. If that's the case it is a candidate for IFD. I7 is where there's some violation of NFCC. Of course something could pass I6 and be an IFD candidate for disputed fair use rationale, yet also a speedy deletion candidate for I7 or any other criterion at the same time, but no need to mention that. Things can always break more than one rule at a time and be subject to multiple simultaneous remedial options. That's a universal point about policies. While I was at it I changed the name of I6 to conform to current terminology. Wikidemo 05:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The difficulty is the ambiguous word "instead", which can be read as "instead of CSD" or "instead of I6". Remember that we do not use any nonobvious legal conventions for interpreting our policies (cf WP:WIKILAWYER). Our policies need to be understandable by users who don't know how anything about how policies are written in the real world, who don't speak English natively and who have no familiarity with Western legal concepts. So any of our policies that requires legalistic reasoning to interpret isn't written well enough yet.

I'll make another attempt at clarifying I6; since the only option for deleting an image that isn't a CSD candidate is IFD, we don't really need to explicitly mention IFD there. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistency between CSD:C1 and {{db-catempty}}

CSD:C1 suggests that a category can be speedily deleted if it has been empty for four days. {{db-catempty}} however indicates that the category needs to have been empty for four days and [that] its only content has been links to parent categories. I had a category which had been empty for four days, but which had previously contained content, so I wasn't sure whether it could be speedily-deleted or not. (As it turns out, I got it deleted using {{db-author}}). DH85868993 02:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I have modified the template to match the current wording. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 03:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I'm wondering how we can check that the category has been empty for 4 days. I usually stay away from C1 because of that. -- lucasbfr ^talk 10:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Generally, by watchlisting it for a few days. The reason that clause is there is (1) to not delete recently-created categories that are still being populated, and (2) to avert people depopulating something and deleting it immediately. >Radiant< 11:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a job for a bot - watch empty categories tagged for deletion and keep track of how long they are empty. I'll put that on my list. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd send you a box of cookies! -- lucasbfr ^talk 13:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Add non-notable software products to A7

It arises with surprising frequency that I'm doing some sort of page watching, and an obviously non-notable software product is named. I will tag it db-web without thinking, but then it is rejected, because it is not actually web content. It seems like a fairly minor distinction to me. If web-content is speedy deletable, couldn't non-notable software products be as well (e.g., new patches that someone created and decides to write about on Wikipedia)? I truly believe this would be a good addition to the list, and is truly in the spirit of db-web. The Evil Spartan 17:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

• I agree often it is nn software from a nn firm, so the firm is speediable but its products linger? Like nn people and their pets and nn bands and their albums... I think a more liberal approach isn't the worst thing and the language of policy should probably be amended in all those instances to match the reality - these do get speedied often just depends (IMHO) who happens across it and how sensitive they are to criticism if it's challenged. Carlossuarez46 23:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I just speedy them if the firm is a good redlink, (which indicates that the firm is not notable), but I agree it should be added in there. Jaranda ^{wat's sup Sports!} 23:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. Since A7 does not apply to articles that are "non-notable" but rather articles that do not assert significance, I have a question: what consitutes an assertion of significance for software? At the moment, I think that this is too difficult to codify, which would suggest that "software" shouldn't be added to A7. I'm not against the exercise of judgment in cases which are not technically covered by A7 (e.g. pets), but software seems to be an area where an unambiguous judgment is difficult to make. –Black Falcon ^(Talk) 23:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
  • For software (and other computer-related issues), the google test works remarkably well. This is generally a matter of common sense. Some articles on software are both about the program and the person or organization writing it ("I wrote this gaem with my friend andits very kewl!!!1!") or are blatant advertising. >Radiant< 09:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • The google test is unrelated to "assertion of notability" in the article. If we need to rely on a google test, then this topic area isn't suitable for A7. A7 qualification should be judgable solely from the article (and its history, due to (not explained, see WP:BEANS)). GRBerry 16:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
      • A Google test might be useful in the context of a {{prod}} or an AfD, but I don't see how it could serve as an assertion of significance. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 16:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
        • I object because I don't want to see people trying to add "claims of significance" to legit articles that don't need them. I mentioned above that I had to de-speedy Ballerium at one point. The article just described the game and mentioned who was making it, without anything that was explicitly a 'claim of significance.' I wouldn't want people to add one just to avoid A7: that would tend to create NPOV problems, and may push articles towards G11 deletions. Mangojuice^talk 16:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

But if there is no valid assertion of notability, should it be an article here? I think that unless there is some claim of notability an article on software should be speedy deletable. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 16:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

But what consitutes an assertion of significance for software? Black Falcon ^(Talk) 17:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Given that we don't have accepted notability guidelines for software (Wikipedia:Notability (software) is rejected) I don't think we can say. Hut 8.5 17:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

An assertion of notability is just that, a claim that it is notable in some way. It does not have to be a good one, and it does not need to meet Wikipedia:Notability (software), just a claim. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 17:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but what makes software significant? That's the issue ... I don't think it's as unambiguous as with other topics. Take the article RealPlayer as an example. The software is without doubt notable, yet the first paragraph (which is the length of most software stubs) doesn't make an obvious claim of significance. Moreover, oftentimes a claim of significance is recongisable only to those who have expertise in computing and software products. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 19:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not for us to judge the value of the claim of significance, just if one exists or not. AfD decides if a claim is enough. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 19:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

My point is that with software it's difficult to judge not the value but the very existence or non-existence of a claim of significance. Given this difficulty, the addition of software to A7 is neither sufficiently objective nor uncontestable, which all criteria should be. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 19:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the article RealPlayer I would add something like "RealPlayer is one of the more widely used streaming image formats(ref)". I would not speedy an article that makes no such claim if it existed prior to the CSD rule, I would tag it as needed it or find it myself. Like other CSD requirements we could say "Articles before this date should be given X days notice first". ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 19:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Here is a claim of notability from that article hehe: "In 2006 PC World Magazine named RealPlayer as #2 in its list of the 25 worst products of all time". ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 19:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

That's why I pointed you only to the first paragraph. :) The vast majority of software articles are neither as long nor as well-referenced as the RealPlayer article. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 19:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me try my example. Can you tell me what is the assertion of significance or importance in this version of Ballerium? I certainly had a hard time explaining it to the user who marked that version for speedy deletion immediately afterwards. Mangojuice^talk 20:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's be clear about this: if a product is notable, and someone tags it because it doesn't make an assertion, that's a problem with every a7 category. So how would this problem be any worse with software and non-notable albums than with any other a7 category? And, if there's any doubt this might be a good idea, I suggest you all check out Ildjit and GenCOM Suite (both non-notable software, created by software author) - I just came across it, and I cannot pluck a speedy tag on it. The Evil Spartan 18:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

That's not necessarily true. Let's look at the article Ildjit. Does it contain an assertion of notability? Quite frankly ... I can't say. For instance, it says that ILDJIT is an "extendible JIT compiler", a "parallel JIT compiler", and a "distributed JIT compiler". I have no idea what that means or whether the intersection of those three characteristics is important. (And I'm sure there are people who are less familiar than I with computing and software topics). If this article was about a person or a company, it would be far less technical/more comprehensible and it would be much easier to ascertain whether an assertion of notability exists. I share Mangojuice's concern that artificially requiring assertions of notability in descriptive articles about software products will encourage editors to introduce bias and a promotional tone. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 20:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Two thoughts. First, as long as A7 is not an exhaustive list I'm reluctant to add software products because as people have commented it is hard to tell what constitutes an assertion of notability absent a sometimes awkward boast about how many people are using it or how important it is. Not impossible, just more work and potentially more controversial than CSD is set up for. Second, I nevertheless would encourage people to make the best claim for notability they can because that puts the article in context and makes it more relevant and useful to the lay reader. Frankly, I'm a former software professional and I can't tell in a five second glance whether IDJIT or Ballerium or most of the others are things I should know about, worth reading, etc. Wouldn't it be better to introduce an article with something like: Ballerium is a massively multiplayer....game that, thought it never progressed out of beta testing, influenced the future course of game design by x, y, and z. I made that up of course, but if something is notable because it makes a difference in the world, isn't it best to say the difference? Software X is the leading software for task Y, a major function within the insurance industry. Software X obtained 300,000 pre-release orders, one of the top ten products of 2006....and so on. That would be a real claim for notability and article editors, if challenged, ought to be ready to make a claim like that.Wikidemo 21:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyvios

I'm being told by User:Carlossuarez46 that I can't tag db-copyvio on an article if the creator claims copyright, even if they don't bother to follow any of the procedures to prove that they are the copyright owner. Is this correct? Corvus cornix 21:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Normally if there is an assertion of permission it is not speedy but should be listed on Wikipedia:Copyright problems. If then there is still no clear permission (OTRS) the article gets deleted. Garion96 (talk) 21:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, what I told you is that G12 says that we should not speedy delete articles if there is a credible assertion of permission. So I declined your speedy request. I would hope that we could use this forum to discuss changing G12 to permit speedy deletions upon copying of non-public domain or GFDL content and permit the permissions folks to restore those upon receipt of the permissions rather than granting the benefit of the doubt to the asserter of permission. In the case Corvus cornix mentions it was pretty clear cut that the article author was likely to be the copied content author too. Carlossuarez46 21:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, the procedures for WP:CP call for the page to be blanked after the copyvio tag is put on it. Should I do that in the middle of the AfD discussion? Corvus cornix 22:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to say "yes", as it's still in the history for AfD participants to review. Deletion review works with even less available than that, so it shouldn't be a problem. -- But|seriously|folks  22:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

• If the creator claims copyright but does not want to license his work under the GFDL, then Wikipedia cannot host it, and such content can be speedily deleted over licensing conflicts. If the creator claims copyright but it is unclear whether he accepts the GFDL, it should be discussed first. >Radiant< 09:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • If you believe clicking the Save Page button licenses your contribution under the GFDL, then you would think any contribution made via a page edit would be so licensed as long as the person making the edit is in fact the copyright holder, regardless of whether they just wrote the material or wrote it previously. But IANAL. Dcoetzee 09:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes, that would appear to be the case. But I've seen some people who deny their GFDL licensing, or try to withdraw it later. These tend to be blocked rather quickly. >Radiant< 11:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
      • If we want to expand G12 to cover all apparent copyvios except those cleared by OTRS, we should amend G12 to explicitly remove the "credible assertion" exception to deletion. I also have hairs to pick with the way G12 is formulated: is the copyvio any less that a user copied 5 paragraphs with one edit and another user copied a further 5 paragraphs in a second edit? No. Then why is it limited to "material was introduced at once by a single person"? If the article is a verbatim copy of unfree web content that's apparent on its face what relevance does the # of edits or editors have unless the infinite monkey theorem sometimes plays out in the single digits. Carlossuarez46 20:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Temporarily suspending I6

I have made a proposal, by edit, that we temporarily suspend I6 because Betacommandbot, the bot that was tagging images for lack of a fair use rationale, attempts to have been restarted and malfunctioned, tagging many images that actually did have rationales. In addition, there has been some serious discussion about whether a written rationale should be required and whether it is appropriate to speedily delete legacy images for lack of rationale, given that the prior arguments that the Wikimedia Foundation was requiring us to do that turned out to be untrue.

Let's hold off on further deletions until we resolve this issue. Re-starting the large scale deletions would be a provocation at this point. This is a matter that ought to be addressed in a calm, sensible way. Also, the conversation should be had at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content, not here. Wikidemo 03:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No, all the images that where tagged have now been reverted and no where has there been consensus for your removal of the need for rationales. β^_command 04:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, "calm" and "sensible" in this case was stopping the bot and reverting the edits, not suspending the criteria. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 04:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for undoing the effects of yet another malfunction of this bot. I agree that if all the new tags have been reverted then "calm and sensible" is to let things stand as is; this was just a quick attempt by me to prevent any real trouble if these things stood. "Calm and sensible" is not to re-start the image purging program. There isn't any consensus to delete all these images. It would be helpful to get an agreement not to re-start the bot with respect to legacy images lacking written use rationale. The bot never got proper approval for this use. Starting this up again for old images is provoking a serious problem, and disrupting a lot of articles. It's best if we can discuss this issue in one place - WP:NONFREE is the policy page where all this springs from. This page and I6 are simply an implementation question. Wikidemo 05:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It's been discussed all over the place. The bot is fine, doing something that bots do well (despite the occasional malfunction), and is helping with a cleanup task far too massive for human editors to manually edit. And if deleting admins aren't looking at I6 images to see if a rationale is actually present, they need a troutwhack—malfunctioning bots aside, many editors who add a rationale forget to remove the I6 tag or don't know if they're allowed to, and leave it there, so it's extremely important for a deleting admin to look if a rationale's actually there. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The bot is just tagging images, which it was approved for (the bot goes by and say "do you have this or not?"). What you should be asking is for the admins who are doing the deleting to grant a grace period. In that sense, there would be more time, and we would know what images needed attention. If the bot stopped tagging, then we simply wouldn't know what images would be effected. -- Ned Scott 05:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No, the bot is not okay. It circumvented the normal approval process - it was approved with no discussion, no notice period, no disclosure about what it was going to do, speed of tagging, etc., like every other bot. There was no description of what it was going to do, and an obscure discussion for a few days on an administrator's board was taken for approval of a year-long program of image deletion. The bot approval process is designed to figure out what people are up to with their bots and whether that's appropriate. If the bot were approved on a promise that "I am going to tag half the non-free images on Wikipedia and rally administrators to speedily delete them" and peopel had a chance to comment on that it would never have been approved without oversight conditions. As it is, to paraphrase, it was approved in a few hours on an informal comment that said I would like to run my bot to tag images without fair use rationales. As it stands the whole process is now in the hands of a single editor who has been somewhat contentious about the issue to do whatever the editor wants, at the editor's speed, acting unilaterally without oversight. This has caused one of the biggest aggravations I have seen around here, iF all we need is a survey of the images without use rationales I think that exists already, or we could have the bot do that without posting warnings that the images are about to be deleted. Wikidemo 05:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

you know what? Ive created those list, posted them, and bent over backwards. I have a filed BRFA that is approved for tagging images, It as been brought up many many times on both AN and ANI along with the NFCC talk page. so stop making attacks against me and fix the problem of images that have no rationales. β^_command 05:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned the approval was irregular, not done with proper disclosure or process, and without reference to what the actual plan was. I have fixed a bunch of images, probably several hundred by this point and despite lots of contentious opposition managed to create some templates by which people have fixed a lot more. How many have you fixed? How about you help by working on bots to help fix images, not just delete them?Wikidemo 09:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

How is this "in the hands of a single editor?" The single editor you're referring to can't delete a single image! Remember, these images always were subject to deletion if found and tagged. The process hasn't changed, the rules haven't changed, it's simply being done more efficiently, and still with oversight from others (the admin who reviews the image for deletion, at the very least). Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Specious argument. The bot triggers the deletions. The deletion process starts and stops when the bot runs. The schedule is up to a single person. Nobody asks me, and nobody asks anyone else, when it will run, how, with what notice, etc. There is simply no oversight and it's being done in a backwards way via a process singularly devoted to deleting images, not fixing them. Yes, the administrators deleting the images without spending the time to fix them are a problem too. If they would make the effort they might mitigate some of the problems with the bot. But the process is still not sensible. Wikidemo 09:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The bot does not "trigger" a deletion. It triggers an examination from an admin. If an admin is deleting an image only because a bot tagged it then the problem is not the bot. I think it is very sensible, and I don't see why you should be consulted before existing image policy is enforced. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 16:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? The bot tags an image and seven days later an admin comes by and deletes the image. If the bot tags a thousand images, seven days later admins come by and delete a thousand images. Or 800-900, at any rate. I believe "trigger" is a reasonable word to describe that. The admins are organized and they follow behind the bot to delete images the bot tags. The reason it's not sensible is that they're deleting perfectly good images more or less on a random schedule without trying to fix them, so we end up with a lot of holes in articles. I should be consulted to the same extent the other millions of Wikipedia participants should be consulted. A program to delete 170,000 images, half the non-free images on Wikipedia, needs some discussion.Wikidemo 19:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

And, once again, if a human tagged the images, the same thing would happen, because most of them aren't getting done. When I'm looking through CSDs, I'm looking for a rationale. I don't know what the uploader was thinking, I don't know why people think it's an appropriate nonfree use, and I'm not going to try to outguess them. If they want to reupload the image with an appropriate rationale, or write one before the week's up, either option is open. But the requirement for a rationale has nothing to do with the bot, and was required long before WMF even made its resolution. Images without rationales have always been subject to deletion, the bot is just bringing more to people's attention. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

If you won't consider saving an image you shouldn't be deleting it either. It's not a matter of the uploader's state of mind, it's the use of the image in the article. That's usually quite clear. Wikidemo 07:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Using whatlinkshere rather than categories for maintenance lists

I've suggested we should convert most of the maintenance templates to use a "whatlinkshere" based mechanism rather than categories to keep track of articles needing maintenance, and have implemented an example using template:copyedit/test. If you have an interest in this, please comment at Wikipedia talk:Maintenance#Using whatlinkshere rather than categories for maintenance lists. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

What does this change improve? ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 17:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Please comment at Wikipedia talk:Maintenance, per the link above. The advantage is that we avoid cluttering the list of categories shown for articles with numerous maintenance categories. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal C2.6

I would like to propose a new speedy criteria for category renaming. I have come across 3 examples (in one day) that would qualify. Here is the scenario. Renaming in order to conform with the disambiguation found in the parent article. Look at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 September 4 for the examples: 1 and 2. We have Category:Mayhem albums yet Mayhem (band), and we have Category:Richmond City Council yet Richmond City Council (Richmond, California). Keep in mind that the renaming process requires users to tag, list and wait 48 before the process can go through, so there is oversight just in case. So what do others think about adding a new rename criteria, C2.6 "Renaming in order to conform with parent article disambiguation, i.e. x to x(y)"?-Andrew c ^[talk] 02:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Isn't changing article categories within an editor's discretion? Why not simply change the category without notice if you want to be bold, but if anyone objects or you think it might be controversial, or it involves a lot of work editing multiple articles, then put it up for a comment first? That can be done informally, without an explicit CSD process, no? And then if there is an old empty category page that can't be moved, it gets deleted in due course.Wikidemo 21:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a speedy renaming section at WP:CFD I think that's where it should belong. It sits there a short while so that others can object or second the nomination and if no one objects it just gets handled. I don't think we should open a second process because people may be expecting to see it elsewhere and it would be difficult for editors used to new page patrolling to recognize the conflicts that are the staple of the CFD world. Carlossuarez46 16:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

CSD G8

Maybe this criterion should be made an article criterion. I don't see how this criterion fits in with other categories. J-ſtan ^Talk_Contribs 19:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but if we do that we have to leave a blank placeholder so the numbers stay the same. That ends up being messier than leaving this one where it arguably doesn't belong. Wikidemo 08:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Deprecation of G7

With the swift approval of WP:REVOKE, CSD:G7 has become obsolete. It is no longer acceptable to request deletion of GFDL content because you are the author and you wish it removed. Doing so is a blockable offense. Thus, this deprecated criteria should be removed. 198.203.175.175 19:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think G7 should be removed because it doesn't only apply to GFDL content. It extends into other things such as hoaxes and test pages. If the author blanks them, that is covered under G7. J-ſtan ^Talk_Contribs 19:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

All material submitted to the encyclopedia is licensed under GFDL. Hoaxes, test pages, and nonsense have their own criteria. G7 conflicts with WP:REVOKE. 198.203.175.175 20:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, hoaxes are not covered under a CSD. G7 covers the original author removing content for any reason (not just GFDL), or requesting deletion. If the request for deletion conflicts with WP:REVOKE, then it is not covered. J-ſtan^Talk_Contribs 20:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Admins are not obligated to delete under G7; the criterion exists as a courtesy for users who realize their material is inappropriate and either request deletion or blank the page. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

And this conflicts with critera #2 above. 198.203.175.175 20:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't follow. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

G7 does not obligate us to delete anything, nor does it admit deletions made in bad faith (see the non-criteria section for more explanation). As such it doesn't conflict with REVOKE. Its main purpose is for a user to request a deletion in a place where they screwed up and it makes sense, or for things like user subpages, etc. Dcoetzee 00:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

G7 absolutely must remain. A lot of users blank pages with the intent that they will be deleted; sometimes they'll even put a "delete" comment in their edit summary. This criteria is essential to clearing out old empty pages that were mistakenly created. --MZMcBride 01:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:REVOKE means that you can't demand that good contributions be deleted by revoking the GFDL license (or rather trying to). There's still no policy against asking for things to be deleted. -Amarkov moo! 02:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey! I was copy-editing the "non-criteria" section and noticed the issue is already addressed there. I reworded it some and threw in the reference to WP:REVOKE. That should settle it. G7 is not for bad-faith deletions, but is for innocent mistakes and people changing their mind. I've asked for deletions a few times myself when I misspell a subject name, write a new article only to find out that it already exists under a different name, etc.Wikidemo 08:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• I kind of fail to see the point of WP:REVOKE. It appears to have been written in a fit of moral panic, and does not appear to be necessary. >Radiant< 09:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Even if it's true it doesn't need a whole policy page - it should just be a paragraph on some other policy page, like this one. But what can you do? Wikidemo 09:48, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• edit it, of course  :) >Radiant< 09:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not that bold. It's a policy page, for goodness sakes. Someone might get mean. Wikidemo 10:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• • It was created and deemed policy two days later as a means to permanently ban people who question the legal interpretation of a few people. 198.203.175.175 16:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Going through the new pages log is depressing

New user creates non-notable/inappropriate article, gets deleted, user doesn't come back. The next minute, the same thing happens. Repeat ad infinitum.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 11:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

A7 Edit-warringskirmishing on the A7 bit of non-criteria

Okay, I suggest we all talk before doing any more editing of this.

That said, I disagree with the current version as replaced by Radiant, and prefer the version by Cryptic, and here's why: The criteria for speedy deletion represent consensus-based exceptions to the normal process of deletion. They are based on a presumption of things not being allowed until they are specifically allowed. They were not created to limit the freedom of admins to delete anything they felt should be. Thus, consensus is needed to allow a deletion, rather than forbid it. Thus, we are confident that there is consensus to allow speedy deletion of the types of article enumerated in A7, but there is no apparent consensus to extend it.

Admins (or others) asserting that A7 can be stretched would seem to be thinking of CSD as a restricting policy, rather than a permitting one.

Now, maybe A7 should be stretched. Maybe it ought to have more types of article included, maybe it ought to say "any article", but there's no consensus been demonstrated for this. Thus, the policy stands that A7 only applies to those types of article listed, as the community has not given a consensus-derived consent to admins deleting other types of article outside the normal process. Admins always have WP:IAR and WP:SNOW (well, sort of) to delete things that really obviously want to be deleted, but don't fit the criteria. SamBC(talk) 12:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

And A7 has already been substantially expanded from the original definition, which barely gained community consensus. Trying to shift this again without broad community input is poor form. -- nae'blis 13:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

"Admins always have WP:IAR and WP:SNOW (well, sort of) to delete things that really obviously want to be deleted, but don't fit the criteria." My thoughts exactly. CSD isn't either a restricting policy or a permitting one. It just lists certain types of deletions that are less likely to be controversial if they don't go through the deletion discussion process. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I rather expected my version to be more popular with the interpret-CSD-loosely camp than the -strictly one. (Inspection of my deletion logs will show that I'm well into the loosely side, and that I cheerfully label my IAR/SNOW speedies as A7s if they even vaguely fit.) My expectation was that the wording already implied that there wasn't consensus either to allow or to disallow these deletions, as Radiant objected to in his edit summary; this could be made clearer by inserting a whether (for "There is no consensus whether to speedily delete articles of types not specifically listed in A7 under that criterion."). —Cryptic 13:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Objective definition of "importance or significance"

While we're on the topic of A7, I have a few things to say and ask. Is it possible to objectively define whether an article "asserts importance or significance" of the subject? I'd say it isn't. It's also confusing to new contributors, who won't understand the concept of notability, and the fact that "importance or significance" is effectively synonymous with how much you can prove that other important or significant people or groups care about it, which the newcomer often does not realise. What do you say to this?-h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 14:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I say that the wording "importance or significance" is used very deliberately, and they have their usual definitions. While A7 predates WP:N, if the criterion used the contorted Wikipedia-specific definition of notability, it would have been changed to specifically say "notability" by now. (And the failed proposal to speedy unsourced articles would neither have failed, nor indeed have been needed.) —Cryptic 14:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I have not had much trouble telling the difference. Of course it is not truly objective, that is why we have humans make the decision instead of a bot. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 14:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, actually, a bot would have trouble doing it anyway as it would have to recognise natural language, which computers tend to be incapable of.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 14:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, something I can do very well as a human. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 14:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)