Talk:Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to not merge these two pages. ^Falling_Gravity 18:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

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Democratic National Committee cyber attacks to be merged ---> into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election

I propose that Democratic National Committee cyber attacks be merged into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. I think that the content in the cyber attack article provides additional detail and can easily fit within the article on Russian influence. If there is too much content, I would suggest that the cyber attack article becomes a sub article of the Russian influence article. Casprings (talk) 20:03, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• I strongly support a reverse merge, or per FallingGravity, a merge into something like Cyber attacks and the 2016 United States presidential election. The Democratic National Committee cyber attacks are the major incident involved, and this whole article, I think unintentially (I do not doubt the good intentions of its creators), becomes a massive POV fork. -Darouet (talk) 20:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election is the wider topic. Very good idea. Democratic National Committee cyber attacks should be merged ---> into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. Sagecandor (talk) 20:08, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Changed to oppose below. Sagecandor (talk) 23:01, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. What about Podesta emails, Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee cyber attacks, and Guccifer 2.0? Neutrality^talk 20:10, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Maybe a set of sub articles is a better solution to organize the information? Lots of content and this can be the umbrella?Casprings (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Definitely though Democratic National Committee cyber attacks should be merged into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. Sagecandor (talk) 20:14, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

@Neutrality, Casprings, and Sagecandor: I've long thought these articles should be combined into one comprehensive article. They don't make a lot of sense on their own. -Darouet (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Don't forget 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak, though I'm not sure how all these articles would mesh. ^Falling_Gravity 21:04, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support - I was thinking the same thing, but we will probably have to condense material. Also support Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee cyber attacks, and Podesta emails if the 'Contents' section of the latter is significantly reduced. I think Guccifer 2.0 should remain an independent article.- MrX 20:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with MrX about merging all these into here at Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election and condensing some of the other ones. We don't need to discuss all the "content" of the leaks, etc. Agree with MrX that Guccifer 2.0 should remain its own article. The rest can all get merged into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. Sagecandor (talk) 20:33, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support - per above. Logistics will be a little tricky, but these definitely should be addressed together. Neutrality^talk 20:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
• Against, Russian influence is alleged, not proven, keep the "cyber attack" myth as a smokescreen for insider whistleblowing separate.Keith-264 (talk) 20:47, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security. Sagecandor (talk) 20:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • The CIA’s Absence of ConvictionKeith-264 (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Joint statement from both Republican and Democrat Senators on the Armed Services Committee. Sagecandor (talk) 21:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
    • Keith-264 - A self-published blog has no place in serious discussion about merging content.- MrX 21:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
    • It's as credible as a CIA document these days.Keith-264 (talk) 01:31, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
      • @Sagecandor, MrX, and Keith-264: I don't think anyone - the American or Russian governments, Wikileaks or Guccifer, etc. would contest that the Democrats were hacked, i.e. subject to a cyber attack. Acknowledging that doesn't imply Russian government responsibility. Joint statements by U.S. senators on the other hand, while important to report, tell us nothing about the truth or falsehood of their statements, any more than political statements by politicians in literally any other country. -Darouet (talk) 23:03, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
        • But this joint statement does: Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security. Sagecandor (talk) 23:10, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
          • @Sagecandor: Can you explain what you mean? -Darouet (talk) 23:15, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
            • I mean it means this is an appropriate title for this article to discuss the widely covered topic. Sagecandor (talk) 23:17, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
              • No, my question is, in what way does the existence of the joint statement validate an article title that presumes something which is unknown? Are you saying that the Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security is as good as God's truth as far as wikipedia sources are concerned? Would you say the same of a Russian national security document and its conclusions? -Darouet (talk) 00:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
                • If such a hypothetical fictitious Russian national security document were as widely reported on from reliable secondary sources as this topic, then it too could have its own Wikipedia article. But now we're getting into hypotheticals. Sagecandor (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
                  • You answered the very last question I asked, which was practically an aside, and have now failed to answer whether you think statements made by US intelligence agencies should be treated as fact a half dozen times. Since you refuse to answer the question, it's fair to assume you do. Editing with that attitude is highly disruptive to this project. -Darouet (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
                    • You misrepresent what I said. The fact that they concluded as such, is notable and should be the topic of an article. Not saying it is inherently true. Just that it has gotten wide coverage in reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 01:29, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support, but merge to something like Cyber attacks and the 2016 United States presidential election. This would also include merging the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee cyber attacks article. ^Falling_Gravity 21:25, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • @FallingGravity: I would encourage you to propose this name change. The current title is an egregious example of WP:POVTITLE and your simple suggestion would solve the problem. -Darouet (talk) 01:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
    • It's kind of hard here because this is a merger discussion. I guess we could make this a WP:RFC and vote on what should happen to this article, whether merge, rename, or stay the same. ^Falling_Gravity 03:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Should keep it at this present title here, as references in all the articles point to same source of the cyberattacks. Sagecandor (talk) 21:27, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

    I think we should err on the side of caution because the Russian government hasn't confessed to pulling off the attacks. Generally we try not to imply guilt in an article's title per WP:POVTITLE. ^Falling_Gravity 21:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

    • There is no (U.S. recognized) court of law that adjudicates whether one sovereign power attempted to influence another sovereign power's presidential election. From MrX, above at [1]. Sagecandor (talk) 21:45, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

      • That may be an even better reason to be cautious, especially since none of this is proven, demonstrated, etc., and remains highly contentious. -Darouet (talk) 00:06, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support reverse merge – This page and the DNC page share a lot of contents, so merging makes sense. However, blaming the DNC leaks on Russia in the article title strikes me as a gross violation of WP:NPOV and WP:CRYSTAL. The proper article title would be something like "Information leaks in the 2016 US presidential election", it would merge the DNC / Podesta / Guccifer 2 articles and it would have a section on potential sources of such leaks, be they Russia, random hackers or disgruntled campaign members. It would also have a section on the effective or supposed influence that such leaks had on the election. — JFG ^talk 21:55, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I would oppose a reverse merge, as all the articles have referenced information pointing to a common cyberattack source. Sagecandor (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Would not support a reverse merge. This article provides the historical important fact that the Russian government (or at least US intel believes) directed efforts to elect Trump.Casprings (talk) 22:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Also oppose a reverse merge. Russia is indeed the culprit according to the government agencies charged with determining that.- MrX 22:34, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I add my voice to the chorus opposing a reverse merge for the reasons identified by the three editors above. Neutrality^talk 23:05, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
    • Fine, I won't insist. Amazing how you all take for granted what some CIA operative leaks to the Washington Post… Every nation has their own propaganda efforts! — JFG ^talk 06:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
      • NOT just the CIA, per [2]. Sagecandor (talk) 06:13, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Against - I think the DNC cyberattack has a different scope to this article. The scope of this article is much wider - it includes things other than hacking. Additionally, the DNC page includes the contents of them, while this page would only be concerned with the Russian involvement. Stickee (talk) 23:56, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support Reverse Merge as it's the large alleged event. BlueSalix (talk) 10:10, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support Reverse Merge per BlueSalix. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 15:23, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support merging Democratic National Committee cyber attacks into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. Oppose reverse merge (whaaaa???) Oppose merging the Fake News article into this one.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:21, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

*Oppose (again), what's emerged on this thread is that this is a classic example of the propaganda model of assertions being parrotted and the parrotting being taken as evidence of notability. The exposure of DNC-Clinton Foundation corruption was an inside job because Craig Murray's assertion has the same standing of the CIA assertions. Keith-264 (talk) 16:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Keith, please try to stick to the topic, refrain from off-topic rambling, and avoid calling other editors propagandists. And you already put your !vote above, commenting again further down, with a second bolded "oppose," makes it seem as if you're trying to "double vote." Neutrality^talk 16:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh I do apologise but it's getting harder to take this thread seriously. Thanks for the AGF and the sneer but I suggest that my comment was the most on-topic (sic) since the thread began. If you were paying attention, you would have realised that I was describing the process by which the CIA "revelations" are legitimised by the corporate media, rather than laughed off the front page with questions like "Evidence please?" I have no views about the other contributors, only the calibre of the comments (except for your unpleasant insinuation, that is). I didn't know that this was a vote and I don't care; I thought it was an expression of opinion and I had something to add. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment – Given the different proposals on merging and renaming (the article started as "Russian involvement", then "Russian influence", and now "Russian intervention"), it's probably best to set up an WP:RFC to vote on and discuss the different suggestions. ^Falling_Gravity 18:35, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Democratic National Committee cyber attacks is a legitimate sub-page of Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. The latter is a much bigger subject which includes propaganda efforts through RT TV and a lot of other things. This page is already too big. One does not need to dump everything into one page. This is simply to improve readability. My very best wishes (talk) 20:00, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose These discussions on basically breaking news are rarely a good idea. There's no reason this can't be revisited after the dust has settled and we have more than personal opinion and allegations to work with. TimothyJosephWood 20:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Clearly it's not clear which article should be merged into which other, if any. I support Timothy above and say we wait until the evidence is in. --DanielPharos (talk) 00:48, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Another suggested merger: Democratic National Committee cyber attacks be merged into 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak - discussion here. The main page Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election can be linked in the cyber attacks subsection of that article. 11Eternity11 (talk) 04:50, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose for the time present. Let's wait for the results of the review ordered by President Obama. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 08:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Merging it would only be appropriate if the DNC attacks were solely the responsibility of the Russians, when that is still an allegation and is still very much up in the air. Merging it would be saying that, according to Wikipedia, that was all a Russian thing, and we cannot say that at this point. Marteau (talk) 08:47, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose until dust settles per Stickee and Marteau. Depending on the outcome, a merger may be entirely appropriate, until all of the facts ore know it appears to be an endorsement of one side violating WP:NPOV - Scarpy (talk) 22:53, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose, multiple ongoing investigations by public sector and by fourth branch of government means all related articles will likely get expanded. Sagecandor (talk) 23:01, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose The scope of the DNC cyber attacks article is different from this article. This article has a much broader sweep with other added elements. There are a number of related articles besides these two, and each is topic specific. Keeping these seperate may be the best way to deliver the torrent of information coming forth from the media. And it is best to wait for the dust to settle to see what is worth keeping in these articles. Steve Quinn (talk) 08:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose This article is a large enough topic, 70k, without adding something else to it, especially since the other article is 35k long. --Frmorrison (talk) 15:26, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose the scope of this article is the alleged involvement by Russia in the US elections in general, whereas the DNC hacks is more about the release of unsavoury information from the DNC's internal documents. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with { {re|BrxBrx}})} 02:44, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. This article is far too large to accommodate the cyber attack article now. Strongly agree that the cyber attacks and leaks should be summarized in this article though. gobonobo ^{+ c} 06:00, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. This article focuses on a single perpetrator, Russia. The other article is needed to cover actions by others. Thundermaker (talk) 18:29, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - A merge would not be seamless. The article would become far too lengthy and give undue weight to the DNC cyber attacks when looking at the general scope. Meatsgains (talk) 04:46, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose the merge - This is important and deserves it's own page for people to learn from JonSonberg (talk) 20:13, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Title change proposal: Russian espionage and disinformation targeting the 2016 United States election

I'd propose this article be renamed "Russian espionage and disinformation targeting the 2016 United States election." The terms used, interference, intervention, influence, etc are too general and when used as umbrella terms they dilute what's documented by the WP:RS. - Scarpy (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Though that is accurately what happened, a vast majority of the WP:RS sources use the words "election", and "interference", the most out of all the descriptors. Let's keep the title short and not large and burdensome. Sagecandor (talk) 00:35, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

The proposed title is not very concise, so I'd be reluctant to support such a change. The current title seems to suffice. Dustin (talk) 03:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Both the proposed title and the current title are egregiously POV. We don't know who hacked the DNC.

Sagecandor, unless you have access to information that none of us in the public are privy to, you don't know if there was Russian interference in the US Presidential election. Reliable sources are reporting on claims made by American intelligence and government figures, and on denials by the Russian government. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:21, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Please don't make insinuations or assumptions in reference to individual contributors, and instead keep the discussion focused on content. Sagecandor (talk) 18:34, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Sagecandor, I made no personal attacks or insinuations, and I don't see how you could possibly interpret the above as a personal attack. But now that we're on the subject of you, I am interested to know how a new editor is so familiar with Wikipedia policies, noticeboards, arbitration, article deletion procedures, etc. Forgive me, but something just doesn't click here. Maybe you can clear this up for everyone here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:42, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Let's stop the off-topic accusations and inquisitions, please, thanks. This article talk page is for talking about improving this article. Let's discuss that together, thanks. Sagecandor (talk) 18:43, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Let me just come out and ask you the obvious question: how do you know that Russia hacked the DNC? We don't have reliable source backing for that claim, despite the title of this article implying that we do. You took very quick offense at my above statement, that the origin of the hack is not publicly known, despite accusations that have been leveled by various American intelligence officials and politicians. It's just strange to me that you took such personal offense at a comment that wasn't a personal attack, and your touchiness reminded me of your curious editing history - so forgive my asking. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:51, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

The proposed title is too verbose in my view. WP:TITLE advises to use titles that are concise and natural.- MrX 18:47, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

@MrX: Assuming I remember my English, it's a more common way of speaking to start the title with an adjective (Russian) rather than suffixing with an adverb and noun (by Russia). - Scarpy (talk) 09:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Scarpy: I agree that starting the title with "Russian" would be an improvement. The part I object to is "espionage and disinformation targeting" which can be concisely written as "interference in (or 'with')".- MrX 12:18, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't know anything, other than what I've read in secondary sources. We should go by what is documented in the majority of reliable sources about the subject. Sagecandor (talk) 19:24, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, and those reliable sources report on claims made by American intelligence officials and politicians. So unless our policy is to trust claims made by the CIA and FBI as fact, this article's title is POV. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:28, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

No, not just "American intelligence officials and politicians", but ALL the "intelligence officials" in the entire intelligence community, 17 intelligence agencies, and now, including the FBI. [3]. Sagecandor (talk) 19:46, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

So are you saying that we should treat American intelligence agencies as reliable sources here on Wikipedia? To me, that would seem like an incredible change in policy. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:06, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth. Please don't assume what I am thinking. I am saying it is not just a few "American intelligence officials and politicians". Sagecandor (talk) 21:00, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

It's hard not to come to conclusions when you strongly imply something. The important point is this: reliable sources are reporting on claims made by American intelligence officials and politicians. For the most part, reliable sources are not saying that these claims are true. That means that this article should not treat the claims as if they were true, and in particular, the title of the article should not suggest the claims to be true. Do you agree? -Thucydides411 (talk) 02:55, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Nope. Wrong. As our new leader friend says. Wrong. Not claims. Conclusions. Not by random individual officials. By the entirety of the whole of all of the intelligence community. All 17 agencies, plus the Department of Homeland Security, plus the FBI, all coming together to agree on the same conclusion. Sagecandor (talk) 03:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe it would help this discussion to clarify the status of the information. Did any reliable source say that there was 2016 United States election interference by Russia? --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:03, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Getting dizzy going in circles here. Agree with Timothyjosephwood, below. Sagecandor (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay, Sagecandor, now you're just confusing me. A second ago, when I asked you if American intelligence agencies count as "reliable sources" for Wikipedia, you accused me of putting words in your mouth. But now that I ask you if reliable sources have stated as a fact that Russia carried out the DNC hack, you say that US intelligence has come to that conclusion. You seem to want to dance around this issue. American intelligence agencies (nor Russian intelligence agencies, or any other government spy agencies) do not count as reliable sources. You can't say you're not claiming they're reliable sources on the one hand, but on the other hand cite them as reliable sources. -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:47, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)From your response, it looks to me like the discussion is approaching the point that no reliable source has said that there was 2016 United States election interference by Russia. If that's the case, then the title is implying something that is not verifiable per WP:V. We might then consider changing the title to the less problematic and more concise form: 2016 United States election and Russia. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:54, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

We have a multitude of reliable sources saying this. Sagecandor (talk) 05:08, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Then quote an excerpt here from one of them and give a link to the reliable source that makes that statement. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:12, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Let's focus the move discussion on the move discussion section, above, on this page. Sagecandor (talk) 05:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

From your response, it looks to me that you don't know of any. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:22, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Wrong. But from this discussion, doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and doesn't seem likely to progress to a constructive outcome. Sagecandor (talk) 05:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

That's enough of this for me. Too bad. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:35, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

For some reason the two accounts above seem to be ignoring the multiple other independent entities that came to the exact same conclusions as the 17 intelligence agencies did, months beforehand. Sagecandor (talk) 05:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Seriously ⇨ WP:CONCISE. TimothyJosephWood 20:11, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Agree with Timothyjosephwood, thank you. Sagecandor (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
    • This is a lazy argument. We're discussing a difference of 28 characters (79 to 51). WP:CONCISE says "The goal of conciseness is to balance brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the subject area." Someone not familiar with this topic could conclude from the current title that accusations of hacking voting machines were mad or something like that. The term "interference" is too vague. Vague titles are not encyclopedic titles. - Scarpy (talk) 09:00, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, it doesn't take much effort to make obvious arguments. The title is already too long, and making it even longer isn't a solution. Above and beyond that, (and we really should have an essay on this), these extended arguments that always pop up on articles about unfolding and especially politically charged articles (and has already happened a few times here including a brief move war requiring protect) are nearly always a complete waste of time. Whatever title individuals happen to prefer at the moment, which is usually only a marginal improvement one way or the other, are just as likely to be obsolete in a month as anything else. So have this discussion in a month, when it will almost certainly be more clear what exactly it is we're talking about. TimothyJosephWood 13:31, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Note that the title could be made more concise and address criticisms here by making the change to 2016 United States election and Russia. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:04, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Bob K31416: That proposed title would be an improvement. @Timothyjosephwood: I imagine that you before all others would be the first to recognize that a concise but misleading title is far worse than a verbose and accurate one. -Darouet (talk) 15:35, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't see this in terms of verbosity and misleading...ness (words?). It is a compromise between verbosity and being WP:PRECISE. Additionally, being somewhat more vague does't actually make your title any less precise, so long as there are no other closely related topics that could be easily confused by your given title. 2016 United States election and Russia probably easily satisfies this. TimothyJosephWood 15:43, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

So far, it looks like me, Darouet, and Timothyjosephwood support a proposed change of the title to 2016 United States election and Russia. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:50, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that is terrible proposal. This article is not about the two subjects "'2016 United States election" and "Russia" as the conjunction would imply. The article is about Russia's interference with the election.- MrX 16:49, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Using "and" is a routine way of making a connection between two subjects in a title. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:10, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. It's just really bad writing. The connection between Russia and the US election is interference, not "and". - MrX 17:18, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinions but I don't see much backing them up. BTW, here's an example of a Wikipedia article that uses "and" to connect two subjects in the title, Constantine the Great and Christianity. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:32, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Prove to me there's not a big purple gorilla sitting in my bathtub right now. I'm not sure what hypothetical example source would be satisfactory at this point. Sagecandor (talk) 17:45, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Thucydides411: In terms of disinformation, the Trolls from Olgino seems well documented to me. In terms of espionage, CrowdStrike, the company the DNC called in when they suspected a breach published their results. It's as detailed as the actual exploits used and the indicators that tied them back to Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear. CrowdStrike's conclusion was later supported by Fidelis, Mandiant, SecureWorks, ThreatConnect and the editor of Ars Technica: https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/ - Scarpy (talk) 09:00, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Scarpy: Crowdstrike's statements are notable, but it is a hired firm with links to the American intelligence community. Treating its statements as a source of truth is a major breach of ordinary editorial policy. -Darouet (talk) 15:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

There's, at least, three different definitions of reliable source being conflated in this discussion. (1) A reliable source as a publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (2) a person or organization that's reliable on a given topic (3) a source that provides the requested evidence of Russian intelligence agencies breaching the DNC for the purpose of answering the repeated requests for it on this talk page. I'm only providing (3) here because that's what was asked for in this discussion. If you want to insulate that very specific and detailed evidence that CrowdStrike provided in this report is a fabrication because they have "links to the American intelligence community" (which, by the way, you have completely failed to document) then I will use your argument against you. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Scarpy (talk) 16:32, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

If it's of any help in this discussion, note that for the purpose of writing a Wikpedia article, a reliable source is one that can be put into a citation. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:46, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect, stated the leak of emails in the 2016 US elections was part of a series of cyberattacks on the DNC committed by two Russian intelligence groups. Sagecandor (talk) 17:30, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

References

I oppose a rename to the vague "2016 United States election and Russia" — that's unclear and not very descriptive, as others have noted, that isn't how the reliable sources have framed it. I oppose (mildly) a move to "Russian espionage and disinformation targeting the 2016 United States election" — this is, I think, unnecessarily lengthy. I support a move to Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, as it reads better. Neutrality^talk 17:25, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Neutrality, and oppose this vague title proposal change, and support move to Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. Sagecandor (talk) 17:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

From WP:NPOV , "*Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc."

Russian interference in the 2016 U. S. elections is a widespread view in U.S. intelligence agencies [and numerous cyber security firms], but it hasn't been stated as a fact in reliable sources or in the text of our article. So I think we should keep that in mind when considering an appropriate title. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:16, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Again left out NOT just U.S. intelligence agencies, but also numerous cyber security firms. Sagecandor (talk) 18:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

No problem, I'll add it to my above comment. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:25, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

We can stop including U.S. intelligence agencies in any discussion of reliable sources. There's no reason to mention their statements in this context, because they're not reliable sources. Now, is someone here arguing that cyber security firms are reliable sources? I think we should stick to reputable media, and almost all reputable media stories on the subject describe "Russian hacking" as a claim that's been made by American intelligence agencies, rather than as a fact. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Comment again ignores assessments of Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect. Sagecandor (talk) 19:26, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Neither the intelligence agencies nor the cybersecurity firms have published any reports on this that can be cited, much less something that passes other Wikipedia criteria for a reliable published source. The published reliable sources have not stated the results of these organizations as fact. Also, in the text of our article the results of these organizations have not been stated in Wikipedia's voice as fact. So I don't think we should imply in the title that it is a fact.

That will be the last thing I say in this discussion, so good luck to everyone. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:54, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

The conclusions of Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect -- have indeed been covered by numerous WP:RS secondary sources. Sagecandor (talk) 22:01, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Sagecandor, you repeatedly confuse two different things: whether reliable sources state as a fact that Russia hacked the DNC and leaked the emails (they do not, generally, state this), and whether reliable sources report on claims made by U.S. intelligence and certain cybersecurity firms (reliable sources do report on those claims). That distinction is very important, because the current title strongly suggests that Russian interference in the US election is a fact, when it is rather something that various organizations and people have claimed. Reliable sources report on those claims, which is very different from reliable sources stating unequivocally that those claims are correct. The current title, as well as your proposed title below, are therefore POV. -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:11, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

It's the conclusion of 17 intelligence agencies and Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect -- this is not a single individual person who performed a crime. This was another sovereign nation state. We won't ever get an opinion from a court of law. The fact is it is the conclusion of all of these bodies and that is the single strongest conclusion we will get, most likely. This is not opinion or POV. This is concluded analysis. Sagecandor (talk) 04:14, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Sagecandor, you don't understand what WP:RS means. It's really as simple as that. There could be 100 intelligence agencies that all claimed the same thing, and 20 cybersecurity firms, but as long as reliable sources (e.g., reputable newspapers) did not report those claims as fact, then we would not be able to treat them as fact here in Wikipedia. Unless you can show that reputable newspapers generally state that Russia conducted the hacks and leaked the documents, then we can't treat those claims as fact. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:44, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Not sure why the ignoring here the conclusions of the Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect. They are not the United States government. These are reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 12:44, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@Thucydides411: this was covered in Wired: https://www.wired.com/2016/07/heres-know-russia-dnc-hack/- Scarpy (talk) 07:59, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 21 December 2016

2016 United States election interference by Russia → Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections – This title conforms to the five criteria of WP:TITLE more than any other proposal that I've seen. It lacks ambiguity, reflects the coverage in reliable sources, and is is written in a such that a reader could easily find it via search and have an immediate understanding of what the article is about. - MrX 18:49, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with #'''Support''' or #'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support

1. Support. Agree with the proposal exactly as written by MrX at [4]. The title Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections is the most descriptive, concise, and succinct title for this page. It happened in 2016, it impacted multiple elections, not just one, and the word "interference" is the word most used in a majority of secondary sources. Sagecandor (talk) 18:58, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
2. Support. More natural language, matches the sources out there; I agree that it is the most descriptive, concise, and succinct title. Neutrality^talk 19:38, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
3. Support per nomination. The current wording is awkwardly formed. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 20:15, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
4. Support this great improvement. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:22, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
5. Support per nomination. The current wording is awkward. Coattail effect (talk) 15:50, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
6. Support This is more succinct and seems more likely to match users' search terms. SPECIFICO talk 23:01, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
7. Support This reads much more naturally. - Scarpy (talk) 21:40, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
8. Support – Easier to read title with better form. Dustin (talk) 21:56, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
9. Support Shorter and easier for the reader to find content.Casprings (talk) 02:32, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
10. Support per nom. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 16:48, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
11. Support - better stylistically.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:35, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
12. Support per my statement in the proposal.- MrX 12:33, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. Attributing the hacks to Russia, as if that were a fact, is blatantly POV. We need a title that doesn't state accusations and claims made by unreliable sources (i.e., U.S. intelligence agencies) as if they were facts. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:13, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
2. Oppose. Title should simply be 'Interference in the 2016 United States elections' without any reference to alleged offending country until such time as evidence has been presented to be public to be scrutinized by all. Attack seemingly originating from IP address within Russia does not constitute government involvement. In December interview with Edward Snowden, he too questioned why no evidence has been put forward by U.S. Intelligence agencies to support Russian Government involvement but moreover brought up great comparison. When Sony was hacked, U.S. Intelligence agencies quickly came forward and produced evidence to support their findings that the North Korean Government was responsible for the hack. Here, we have no evidence other than a simple allegation. And, not to take pot shots at the U.S. Intelligence agencies, but these are the same people who lied to Congress for years, about bulk date collection, so credibility is an issue that should not be overlooked. Wikipedia should avoid repeating unfounded allegations and not put itself in the position of becoming another 'fake news' outlet. The title can certainly be changed at a later date once the allegations have been proven. -Parajuris —Preceding undated comment added 19:36, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
3. Oppose – Both the current and proposed titles fail WP:POVTITLE. Either we call it Alleged Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections or we call it Intelligence reports of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. I disagree with calling it just Interference in the 2016 United States elections because most sources do discuss Russia, either accusing its government or dismissing their involvement. — JFG ^talk 00:10, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
4. Oppose per JFG.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:12, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
5. Oppose per JFG. Assigning guilt in article's title violates WP:POVTITLE, especially since the Russian government has denied these allegations. We include these statements in the article, but the article's title tells the reader that these statements are wrong. While that might be true, that's not the job of the article's title. ^Falling_Gravity 01:40, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
6. Oppose – Nowhere in this article's text does it say in Wikipedia's voice that Russia interfered in the 2016 U.S. Elections, so the title shouldn't say so either. I think that this proposal is for changing something bad to something else that's bad, and reinforces a bad title idea. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
7. Oppose per Bob K31416, Thucydides411 and JFG. I consider it practically disruptive that Sagecandor is repeatedly proposing name changes that are practically identical, and all suffer the exact same flaw. The effect is that nobody is able to propose a real change - namely, one that doesn't manufacture a fact from an allegation. -Darouet (talk) 04:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
8. Oppose Any of the titles offered by JFG and Parajuris work better than the current title or the proposed alternative.LM2000 (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
9. Oppose - article titles should not be manipulated into making unproven claims appear to be undisputed facts. The current title is wrong too, obviously, for the same reason. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 04:01, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

This title change doesn't assign any more or any less guilty the then previous one, it just improves the readability of the title. If you want to have a discussion about POV, have it not within a discussion about readability. - Scarpy (talk) 06:01, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

• For reference, there have been several alternate titles suggested in the Oppose section:

Interference in the 2016 United States elections – Parajuris

Alleged Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections – JFG

Intelligence reports of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections – JFG

and there was also an alternate title suggested in a previous section

2016 United States election and Russia – Bob K31416.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 22:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Many of the above opposes pertain to the inclusion of "Russia" in the title. These opposes make little sense considering Russia is already in the title. The new suggested title still contains Russia, but why not come up with a reason why it is worse than the current title? It seems more like blocking a better even if still-flawed title just to make a point. Dustin (talk) 21:26, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@Dustin V. S.: it's not reasonable to ask editors to choose between two more or less equally poor titles. The problem of the title has been discussed since this article was first created, and that is the primary issue that should be discussed. Debating between two deeply flawed wordings, by contrast, would just give them legitimacy they don't have. -Darouet (talk) 07:01, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I suggest you carefully read the oppose remarks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Nope, Dustin is exactly right. The RfC specifies two alternatives. If you want to do something else, then let's finish up that RfC and you can start another. Your comment is not actually helpful.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:27, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

@Bob K31416: I would tend to support the last option you listed - your suggestion - because it is pithy and can contain all relevant material. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on these different proposals you've mentioned? -Darouet (talk) 04:17, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

In Dustin's above message he compared the present title to the RfC's proposed title when he referred to the RfC's proposed title as "a better even if still-flawed title". If that's the case, then simply remove the flaw by adding "Alleged" to the beginning of the proposed title, as one of JFG's proposals did. (Alleged Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections) Maybe some of the editors who are supporting the RfC's proposal might go along with that. --Bob K31416 (talk) 09:21, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm all for changing the title to make it more neutral, but I don't think "alleged" is the right way to go per WP:ALLEGED. If we were to go this route, I think a better way would be "allegations," as in Allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. ^Falling_Gravity 19:00, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I think FallingGravity's suggested title, Allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, is a good one. It's explicit and NPOV. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Re FallingGravity's comment, "I don't think 'alleged' is the right way to go per WP:ALLEGED" – The guideline WP:ALLEGED says, "alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined". They are assertions that have not been accepted by reliable sources (publications) as having been determined to be fact. So I think "alleged" is appropriate. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:24, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

I guess in the end they mean the same thing, though there is a slight semantic difference in the article's main subject (alleged makes it about the interference itself, while allegations makes it primarily about the intelligence reports). I see a lot of articles that use "allegations" or "alleged" in their titles anyways. ^Falling_Gravity 03:32, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Support from me for Allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections as the title. It is well worded and seems factually descriptive of the article's subject. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 04:06, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia violation of policy exposed

Without verifiable content, information cannot be posted as factual according to Wikipedia policy.

Absolutely no factual references were used or cited to draw the conclusion the "2016 United States election interference by Russia" should be treated as a factual statement. At best, the intelligence agencies "believe based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts" that the leaks were "consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts." No actual evidence exists to implicate Russia and, to the contrary, the source of the leaks, Julian Assange, clearly stated that Russia was not involved. The fact remains that the DNC was hacked four months before the Republican Candidate was chosen. The Russians didn't even know that Trump would be the candidate when the "hacking" occurred, so it is highly illogical to assume that they intervened to benefit Mr. Trump when he had not been made the candidate and was actually expected not to be the republican candidate.

The Intelligence Technology employee of the Democratic National Committee, Delevan, openly admitted that he instructed the Podesta staffer to allow the unauthorized access to the documents to proceed and blamed it on a typographical error <1>. An equally plausible explanation would be that it was an intentional, inside job, performed by disgruntled democrats who were angry about the treatment of Bernie Sanders. Another Democratic National Committee staffer, similarly motivated, Seth Rich, was implicated as a source for leaked emails and was allegedly preparing to turn over Hillary Clinton's emails to the FBI when he ended up getting two bullets in his body,<2> "consistent with the methods and motivations of (Clinton)-directed efforts." With equal justification, it can be said that some "believe based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts" that Vince Foster's experience can serve as a role model for a Clinton implication.

Therefore, the title should be changed to "Alleged 2016 United States election interference by Russia."

67.161.43.34 (talk) 22:12, 22 December 2016 (UTC)William T. O'Connor

@67.161.43.34: This is a longstanding issue we've been trying to address. You're correct that the vast majority of sources do not refer to Russian interference as a fact. Hopefully the problem will be resolved in the coming weeks. Feel free to help with that if you are still editing here at that time. -Darouet (talk) 07:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM (and washington times is not a reliable source).Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:33, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

References

RfC: Should Putin's December 23 press conference statement be included or excluded?

At a December 23 press conference, Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election: "[The Democrats] are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame. In my view this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity." Does Putin's response belong in the article? (I am doing this as an RfC because the existing discretionary sanctions on American Politics effectively give anyone veto power over any material merely by deleting it, regardless of how flimsy the rationale for deletion may be—although in practice this is constantly abused and inconsistently enforced.)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:33, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

References

Survey – Putin response

• Support adding Putin's response. This material was deleted as "wp:undue" by User:Volunteer Marek, but it's hard for me to imagine how WP:UNDUE could apply to Putin's own response to allegations that he personally interfered in the U.S. election.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:37, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support This direct quote by Putin directly pertaining to the issue (in an article devoid of quotes by Putin) certainly is appropriate under the "Commentary and Reaction" section, the "Russian Government" sub-section, as originally entered by TheTimesAreAChanging. There currently is no direct quote by the man directly implicated in these actions and this one is notable, well-sourced, and encyclopedic. Marteau (talk) 04:25, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose this is a distraction. Obviously, Russia denies this and is trying to make this about the election and not about the violations committed by their intelligence and disinformation agencies. - Scarpy (talk) 05:57, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

You have cited a political, but not an encyclopedic, reason for excluding the statement of an alleged perpetrator of the action the article is devoted to. Your guess as to what Putin's motives are is irrelevant. The direct statement of the alleged perpetrator of the activity the article is devoted to is 100% completely relevant and 100% deserving of inclusion in the "Reaction and Commentary" sub-section. Marteau (talk) 06:31, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Obviously US politicians and officials never do this. That's what makes their opinions so reliable. Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm hesitant to respond here. I will remind you to assume good faith, and to pay close attention to comments before responding. If you'd like to have a two-sided conversation, I'm all for it. If you want to go off on tangents, there are other contributors to this article what will likely indulge you. - Scarpy (talk) 06:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support. It is clearly one of the more notable statements in the "Commentary and Reaction" section. It has received more than enough enough coverage in the non-Russian press. This despite the fact that (a) it's very recent (b) national media coverage is necessarily skewed toward reporting on statements made by domestic politicians (i.e. not Putin), something which has to be taken into account per wp:systemicbias. If it were up to me, the "reaction" section would be down to a paragraph, and a lot of the less-than-informative commentary (including this taunting by Putin) would go. since that does not appear to be in the cards, Putin's statement from his major annual press conference must be kept per WP:DUE. Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support - I think we have to include a brief mention of this based on the widespread coverage in reliable sources, even though it's empty posturing and diversionary.- MrX 18:29, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Can you be a little bit more specific about what you mean by "brief"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes. We can simply summarize what he said. For example, "Putin accused Democrats of seeking someone to blame for their defeat". Quoting him directly is just lazy writing.- MrX 15:02, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

That seems like a good idea, especially since we weren't quoting him directly but rather giving a translation of what he said in Russian. (There's a different translation with essentially the same or similar meaning on the President of Russia webcite.[5]) --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support – Statement is obviously relevant, and widely cited in RS, Volunteer Marek's POV notwithstanding. Suggest a WP:SNOW close. — JFG ^talk 08:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose – It wasn't specified what "all fronts" meant. For example, one of those fronts could be the war in Syria. Putin's comments about the elections accusations came a little later in the reliable source.

" Putin dismissed suggestions Moscow had helped Trump to victory in any way however.

  'It's not like that,' he said. 'All of this (the accusations) speaks of the current administration's systemic problems.' "

--Bob K31416 (talk) 16:59, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Bob K31416: You should really withdraw your oppose, as it is based on false pretenses. "One of those fronts could be the war in Syria." No, Russia actually is involved in the war in Syria. In context, Putin was quite clearly referring to the U.S. elections: "Democrats are losing on every front and looking for people to blame everywhere. They need to learn to lose with dignity. The Democratic Party lost not only the presidential elections, but elections in the Senate and Congress. ... Is that also my work?" (Or use Russia's official translation: "The current US Administration and leaders of the Democratic Party are trying to blame all their failures on outside factors. I have questions and some thoughts in this regard. We know that not only did the Democratic Party lose the presidential election, but also the Senate, where the Republicans have the majority, and Congress, where the Republicans are also in control. Did we, or I also do that? ... This is not the way things really are. All this goes to show that the current administration faces system-wide issues.") More importantly, none of our reliable sources thought to misinterpret Putin's words in the highly creative manner you suggest, as I will document below.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

The quote you just gave, together with his point elsewhere about the the substance of the leaks being more important than the identity of the leakers, is IMO more substantive and measured than the stuff about politicians not being "graceful." The latter is too close to the shrill rants from ex-spies about the "hideousness" of Trump's treatment of their courageous colleagues. Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:18, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I think there's a problem with your RfC proposal because the given source doesn't clearly indicate that the quote is about the elections. The fact that you had to go to other sources, seems to admit that your given source is inadequate. You might try making a proposal that is correctly sourced by using material from the sources in your recent message above and we'll see if it works. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:20, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I had no idea that the one source I gave could be so misconstrued, or that we were going to be this pedantic. I have replaced Reuters with the Washington Post of the same day, which uses the same Putin quote but is even more unequivocal regarding its meaning.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose While it would be appropriate to include a well-sourced statement that Putin denies Russian involvement in the hacking, that is not what this RfC would provide. This RfC promotes the clearly UNDUE and irrelevant fact that Putin denigrates the Democrats. Per my statement and others in the discussion section below, editors should oppose this WP:POINTy RfC and we should instead follow policy to include appropriate accounts of Putin's denial. SPECIFICO talk 19:12, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose to including as direct quotation. This should be mentioned, but only briefly summarized as the fact that Putin denied the claim. I do not see any reason for including direct quotation here. He is not a Cicero, and the statements adds nothing to the simple fact of denial beyond disparaging other people. The only reason to include quotation is to disparage democrats, which is not the purpose of WP.My very best wishes (talk) 21:03, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

It's also not the purpose of Wikipedia to exclude quotes just because they disparage Democrats. If the quote is notable enough, it should be included, either in direct or paraphrased form. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

So, why exactly anyone would consider this quotation notable? This is just a slander that provides zero information. Saying that, I realize that certain slander can be notable (e.g. "shoot the rabid dogs!" by Andrey Vyshinsky or "kill them in an toilet" by Putin) as described in numerous books. However, I do not see why that particular slander would be notable. My very best wishes (talk) 05:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

If the Russian President makes a public statement on alleged Russian hacking, then it's inherently notable. The evidence for that notability is the wide press coverage Putin's remarks have received. It doesn't matter if you consider the content of those remarks to be "slander that provides zero information." A lot of people think President Obama's statements on the issue, and the statements of his intelligence agencies, are also slander that provide zero information. But they're notable, as evidenced by the press coverage they've received. The only possible reason to exclude this information, that I can see, is political. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support: These statements have been widely reported, and they deal directly with the content of this article. I think it's obvious they belong in the article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:24, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose including the quotation, which is undue. Of course Putin's denial of involvement, properly sourced, should be included.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:32, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: Could you please help me understand your reasoning behind invoking WP:UNDUE on this? "UNDUE" is of course very broadly writter, and it is not clear to me what aspect of the "undue" policy you think including this quote violates. Marteau (talk) 22:55, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Sure. This isn't an article about "Putin's opinions about the Democratic Party of the United States". Which makes inclusion of this quote POVFORKish. Like I said, his denial of Russian involvement is of course DUE, but his opinions about the Dems, is not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:58, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: If this is "undue" for the reasons given by Volunteer Marek et al., so is roughly 90% of the "Reactions" section, which has little to do with the narrow question of whether or not the hackers were employed by the Russian state. Editors are being highly selective--per wp:systemicbias--in what they consider "undue." Putin's other point was that it's not who stole the emails, but what's in them. Remember that Putin himself tried push the same "our enemies did it" line as the Democrats when the Panama papers came out, to distract from the contents of the docs. Would pointing that out also be "undue"? Remember that this article is about Russian "interference in the election", not Russia's "interference in the DNC's IT infrastructure." Therefore the broader political issues can't be dismissed, and in fact are not dismissed by RS. Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:15, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Ummmmmm.... that's actually not true at all. Blatantly not true. Can you *specifically* which parts of the "Reactions" section have "little to do" with the Russian interference in the US election? Because when I read it, it looks like all of is precisely about that. (And seriously, trying to distinguish between "Russian interference in US election" and "Russian interference in DNC structure" is just silly) Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:29, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

"Former CIA director Michael Morell said foreign interference in U.S. elections was an existential threat and called it the "political equivalent" of the September 11 attacks". Let's see: an ex-spy saying "its 911!" is wp:due and relevant; a sitting president saying that the Democrats have used the "Russian interference" angle as a distraction from their political mistakes and from the content of the emails is off-topic. Did I get that about right? Finally there is nothing silly about the distinction: Russian "interference in the election" encompasses everything from hacking to fundamentally compromising the electoral process. Some others (rough irrelevance score, with Putin's remarks as the 60% baseline): Trump on WMD (60%); Trump on China (100%); ex-CIA Little on Trump disrespecting CIA heroes (100%); ex-CIA Harlow on Trump's "hideousness" (100%); Clinton on Putin's personal vendetta (50%); McElvaine calling for intervention by the electoral college (50%) because it's the worst scandal ever (a year ago, the worst was "Benghazi-gate", if memory serves); probably a few others I was too lazy to cite. Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:05, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

You said, quote, "90% of the "Reactions" section, which has little to do with the narrow question of whether or not the hackers were employed by the Russian state". You haven't actually managed to substantiate that at all, just made up some numbers. Here, let me respond (irrelevance score, with Putin's remarks as the 87.456% baseline):

Ex-CIA director (3.455%), Trump on WMD (8.334%), Trump on China (actually barely mentioned) (100*(sqr(2)/5.7)%), ex-CIA Little on Trump disrespecting CIA heroes (actually disrespecting CIA assessment of the hack) (2x+y=2.8, x=y, .01*x%), ex-CIA Harlow (actually not Trump's hideousness, but that the dispute is hideousness, please read that correctly) (.01*(e^2)/2*e^1.1%), Clinton on Putin's vendetta (.01*lim (x--> inf) (5*(x^4)+6)/(6*(x^4)+3*(x^3)+2x)... %), McElvaine calling for intervention (4.9494949494949494949494949494949494949494949494949494949439494949494%).

See how that works? Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:10, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

FWIW, it doesn't look like the two of you are discussing your issue in terms of the policy WP:UNDUE, which begins with,

"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 03:46, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

References

• WP:DUEWEIGHT has nothing to do with who made the response, and everything to do with the extent of coverage in reliable sources. If you would like to convince other editor that this material should be added to the article, you might start by showing that other reliable sources are treating it as important and that it helps readers understand the subject.- MrX 03:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Okay—I gave you Reuters—here's Huffington Post, Slate, Business Insider, CNN, Fox News, and USA Today. A Google search for "Putin sore losers" gets 263,000 hits. And this story just broke a few hours ago.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
  • ... Washington Post, Daily Mail, Politico, CNBC Marteau (talk) 05:07, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
• I'm changing the RfC title from the highly argumentative "Is Putin's own response UNDUE?" to "Should Putin's December 23 press conference statement be included or excluded?" PEr Wikipedia:Requests for comment, the question presented in an RfC should be brief, neutral, and specific. The original title was none of these. And TheTimesAreAChanging, you should put your argument/perspective under "survey" or "threaded discussion" — not under the question presented. These are pretty simple and important rules for RfCs.

Separately but relatedly, it's also incorrect to frame the issue of whether "Putin's own response should be included" — his response already is included, under "Reactions: Russian government," we clearly and specifically note what Putin's representatives have said (denied that Russia participated, termed accusation "nonsense") and additional quote Russian foreign minister Lavrov as well. Neutrality^talk 03:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Why would it be preferable to cite only "Putin's representatives," but not the man himself—especially when a CIA-connected journalist told ABC Putin was "personally involved"?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

In light of the malformed presentation, I suggest somebody archive this and that if OP wishes to pursue the RfC a properly stated and formatted version be presented. SPECIFICO talk 03:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Only in American Politics, folks.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

If you move your argumentation out of the question section (to the comments or threaded discussion section), that would in my view fix the problem. This is a pretty simple thing to do to follow pretty simple RfC rules. Neutrality^talk 04:12, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

We're only going to have a problem a month from now if this RfC is not properly set forth. I am going to post on AN asking for assistance. The cherrypicked statement by Putin on the 23rd is not about the hacking, it's another in his denigrations of the Democrats and by implication Sec'y Clinton, for whom he has longstanding animosity. There are RS accounts of Putin denying Russian involvement in the hacking and it's appropriate to say Russia denied the conclusions of the US Gov't, but this RfC is misstated and cites Putin's off-topic dissembling on a different subject. This needs to be closed and a proper RfC or edit -- on the topic of this article -- added to the talk page or article. SPECIFICO talk 16:27, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

The premise of the RfC that "Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election" with the given quote, is not supported by the reliable source. Presentation of Putin's response to accusations came a little later in the reliable source, as indicated in my comment in the survey section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:14, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

That's why this RfC is a hot mess. Even if the putative outcome were "support" it would not relate to the relevant matter, namely that Putin has denied involvement. So any supporting !votes here are supporting an undue off-topic and irrelevant statement. That's why we need to shut this down and mount a properly stated RfC, although frankly, as others have stated, the posting of this RfC seems like an argumentative and WP:POINTy reaction to @Volunteer Marek:'s appropriate reversion of the off-topic content. Is there an Admin in the house? Please can't we get this straight? OP has been asked to edit, but at this point we have responses and it is too late for OP to correct this. SPECIFICO talk 17:41, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Not sure if admins intervene in this type of situation. In the meantime, you might consider adding your opinion to the survey section and hope that more will see the problem with this RfC and oppose it --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:01, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

I will do that, thank you, but I will also challenge any close that purports to endorse off-topic article content due to the disruptive malformed statement of the RfC. SPECIFICO talk 19:08, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

As documented below, Bob K31416 and SPECIFICO are playing with fantasies rather than facts, and SPECIFICO is the only one being disruptive (while threatening further disruption). Putin's remarks are apparently so damaging to the narrative these editors seek to promote that they find it easier to assimilate them into their worldview by assiduously denying that Putin said what everyone else heard him say (Russia's official transcript be damned!).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:55, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what kind of alternate universe Bob K31416 and SPECIFICO are living in when they claim "The premise of the RfC that 'Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election' with the given quote, is not supported by the reliable source." Here is Russia's official transcript of the press conference:

• Yevgeny Primakov: Our western colleagues often tell us that you have the power to manipulate the world, designate presidents, and interfere in elections here and there. How does it feel to be the most powerful person on Earth? Thank you.
• Vladimir Putin: I have commented on this issue on a number of occasions. If you want to hear it one more time, I can say it again. The current US Administration and leaders of the Democratic Party are trying to blame all their failures on outside factors. I have questions and some thoughts in this regard. We know that not only did the Democratic Party lose the presidential election, but also the Senate, where the Republicans have the majority, and Congress, where the Republicans are also in control. Did we, or I also do that? We may have celebrated this on the "vestiges of a 17th century chapel," but were we the ones who destroyed the chapel, as the saying goes? This is not the way things really are. All this goes to show that the current administration faces system-wide issues, as I have said at a Valdai Club meeting. ... The outstanding Democrats in American history would probably be turning in their graves though. Roosevelt certainly would be because he was an exceptional statesman in American and world history, who knew how to unite the nation even during the Great Depression’s bleakest years, in the late 1930s, and during World War II. Today’s administration, however, is very clearly dividing the nation. The call for the electors not to vote for either candidate, in this case, not to vote for the President-elect, was quite simply a step towards dividing the nation. Two electors did decide not to vote for Trump, and four for Clinton, and here too they lost. They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame. I think that this is an affront to their own dignity. It is important to know how to lose gracefully.

And here is how this was reported in reliable sources:

• "Putin to Democratic Party: You lost, get over it," The Washington Post, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladi­mir Putin has a message for the White House and Democratic leaders who accuse him of stealing their candidate’s victory: Don't be sore losers. That was how Putin answered a question Friday at his nationally televised annual news conference about whether Russia interfered in the U.S. presidential election in favor of Donald Trump. The Democrats 'are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame,' he told the nearly 1,400 journalists packed into a Moscow convention hall for the nearly four-hour event. 'In my view, this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity.'"
• "Putin says Democrats are being sore losers: 'It is important to know how to lose gracefully'," Business Insider, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin said Friday that top Democrats are being sore losers by, in part, looking to blame Hillary Clinton's stunning election loss on hacks said to have been orchestrated by the Kremlin. 'They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame,' Putin said. 'I think that this is an affront to their own dignity.' 'It is important to know how to lose gracefully,' he added, suggesting Clinton's loss was a result of a 'gap between the elite's vision of what is good and bad' and the 'broad popular masses.'"
• "Putin reaches out to Trump, while thumping Dems," Fox News, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin followed up a warm letter to Donald Trump with a more terse message for U.S. Democrats Friday: Don't blame me for your November drubbing. ... 'Democrats are losing on every front and looking for people to blame everywhere,' he said. 'They need to learn to lose with dignity.' 'The Democratic Party lost not only the presidential elections, but elections in the Senate and Congress. ... Is that also my work?' he said. He went on to ridicule Democrats for never-say-die efforts to overturn the Nov. 8 presidential election, first by calling for recounts, then trying to get electors to flip. 'The fact that the current ruling party called Democratic has blatantly forgotten the original definition of its name is evident if one takes into consideration unscrupulous use of administrative resource and appeals to electors not to concede to voters' choice,' Putin said, according to the Russian news agency Tass."

Do I really need to go on? There is no serious argument that this material has nothing to do with "claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election"; as both the official transcript and the cited RS make clear, Putin chose to respond to the question about interfering in the election by emphasizing the Democrats's need for an external scapegoat. The real argument is simply that some editors don't like how Putin chose to respond, citing WP:NOCRITICISMOFTHEDEMOCRATICPARTYCANEVER,EVER,EVERBEALLOWED—red link very much intended.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:38, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

That wasn't my argument. Maybe my recent message responding to you in the Survey section might clarify that. [6] --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

• I don't understand. How is this content off-topic? Putin discussed the hacking scandal - isn't that directly relevant to this article? -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:22, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

@Marteau:It was not the Democrats accusing the Russians of this or that. It was the official intelligence assessment of the US Government, accepted by both parties in Congress and just about everywhere else except the Trump team, who endorsed and requested Russian interference. SPECIFICO talk 00:37, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: It is not our task to judge the correctness, or incorrectness, of Putin's statement. It is his opinion and his reply to the accusations he has faced, and it belongs in the "Reaction and Commentary" section. But besides that, the Democrats certainly DID accuse the Russians "of this or that". They actually made quite a big to-do about it, as I recall. Marteau (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

But my point is that his "accusers" are not the Democrats, it is the US Government. Only the Trump campaign and associates deny this. SPECIFICO talk 01:22, 26 December 2016 (UTC) SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

"Obama administration accuses Russian government of election-year hacking" Marteau (talk) 01:52, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I was attempting to respond to your statement above that Putin's derogation of the Democrats is on topic for this article because it was the Democratic Party that accused/determined that the Russians hacked. But it was not the Democratic Party, it was the US Government -- the Obama Administration for the executive branch based on the National Intelligence Assessment, and a broad bi-partisan array of US members of Congress. So Putin's snarky put-down presumably of the campaign of Sec'y Clinton, whom he despises, is not relevant to this article. It might be relevant to an article about Secretary Clinton's campaign, since it is a meme that various talking heads on the cable networks have also presented. SPECIFICO talk 02:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, then. Marteau (talk) 02:10, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Please specify the disagreement. Do you doubt that mainstream RS all report that it was the US Gov't intelligence assessment that Russia hacked? SPECIFICO talk 02:14, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

This article is about Russian interference in the election. Democrats, using US intelligence as a basis, have in fact accused Russia of interference. Putin has addressed Democratic criticism. I feel that these issues are worthy of inclusion in an article about Russian interference in the election. I think it has foundation and rationale for inclusion based on policy and guidelines. Thats my stance, you disagree. Now, I'll resume agreeing to disagree if you don't mind :) Marteau (talk) 02:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

If we treated the U.S. government like any other government—for example, the former Soviet regime—we would be far more skeptical of official U.S. government statistics on GDP, inflation, or anything else—and we would be particularly cautious when reporting on classified CIA intelligence analyses anonymously leaked to CIA-connected journalists working for CIA-connected newspapers with no supporting evidence. If we were capable of looking at the U.S. government objectively, we would recognize that it has the same feuding power centers and careerist incentives to the tow the line as any other state—that the CIA is perfectly capable of fabricating intelligence to suit the needs of the incumbent administration—indeed, that the CIA has a long history of doing exactly that. Recall, for example, Richard Helms's bowing to pressure from LBJ to reduce the CIA's estimate of North Vietnamese/Viet Cong troop strength: "At one point the CIA analysts estimated enemy strength at 500,000, while the military insisted it was only 270,000. No amount of discussion could resolve the difference. Eventually, in September 1967, the CIA under Helms went along with the military's lower number for the combat strength of the Vietnamese Communist forces." (That illusion was, of course, shattered in spectacular fashion next January.) (SPECIFICO even recently cited "George W. Bush’s CIA briefer admits Iraq WMD 'intelligence' was a lie"—but I'm sure that could never happen today!) The publicly available facts are as follows:

• As of October 31, 2016—just days before the election (and at a time when pundits were still postulating a 90-98% chance that Clinton would win)—the consensus of the U.S. intelligence community was that "even the hacking into Democratic emails ... was aimed at disrupting the presidential election rather than electing Donald Trump." This assessment was radically altered following Trump's surprise victory (and shortly before the Electoral College voted), but—so far as is known—the intelligence community has not acquired any new information on Russia's actions or intentions since October 31.
• On December 9—the same day that President Obama ordered a full investigation into Russia's alleged role in the election—the CIA leaked its apparently predetermined conclusion that Russia intentionally helped Trump to its favorite newspaper—The Washington Post.
• After leaking these shocking new claims to the press, the intelligence community refused to share any of the underlying evidence with Congress—citing the ongoing review ordered by Obama! In another hate fact purged from this article, Representative Peter T. King called the intelligence community's conduct "absolutely disgraceful," adding: "It's almost as if people in the intelligence community are carrying out a disinformation campaign against the president-elect of the United States." (The CIA has violated its charter to manipulate U.S. public opinion many times in the past—and has a history of rigging democratic elections across the globe, from Italy to Chile.)
• Whatever the current official U.S. government position, the U.S. "free press" unquestioningly towed the government line in a coordinated and Orwellian manner, resulting in headlines such as the following: "No, the presidential election can't be hacked," CNN, October 19, 2016. cf. "Where's the outrage over Russia's hack of the US election?," CNN, December 10, 2016.
• Finally, on December 23, Putin pointed out the obvious: Claims that "Russia hacked the election" look suspiciously like a trumped-up (pardon the pun) attempt to obfuscate the Democrats's stunning repudiation by invoking a sinister foreign bogeyman as the scapegoat. This is consistent with the above facts, as well as the broader psychological phenomenon of the Western Left incessantly blaming "the Russians!" for its continual series of defeats. (See, e.g., "Russian hackers 'probably swayed Brexit vote', says Ben Bradshaw MP," Sky News, December 14, 2016; "Russia Pushing Migrant Rapes': Russia may organise migrant sex attacks in Europe to make Angela Merkel lose German elections, EU experts claim," The Sun, December 14, 2016.)

Because Putin's remarks are so profoundly damaging to the current official U.S. government position (itself likely to suddenly, inexplicably change yet again after January 20, 2017), editors are pretending that Putin didn't really say what the official transcript says he said, or couldn't possibly have meant it—and, in any case, doubting the accuracy and integrity of the CIA is inherently WP:UNDUE, or something.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

The last point too accurate to be said out loud. I can't wait to see what will be considered "due" and "reliable" for this article after January 20th, 2017. US officials say... Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I frankly can't believe that we're arguing over whether a widely covered statement by the Russian President on the hacking scandal and election is relevant to this article. Even more than that, I can't believe that there are people who are arguing that it isn't related to "2016 United States election interference by Russia." I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality. Really, can we just step back and try to approach this article with less blatant POV battling? -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree _{Adotchar| reply here} 10:36, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. The thrashing and wailing accompanying the proposed inclusion of a quote by the man directly accused of involvement in this issue, in the "Commentary and Reactions - Russian Government" subsection is becoming ludicrous and at this point I have to believe POV pushing is involved. The proposed quote does more than simply deny Russian involvement; it ascribes a purported motive and is something anyone who hopes to fully understand the dynamics of this issue should be exposed to. His words also capture the tenor of the issue and the animosity present beyond which what a sterile paraphrase can capture. That this statement is Putin's POV is clear, and any bemoaning about how it casts Democrats in a bad light insults the intelligence of the reader... the source and his bias is obvious and the reader needs no protection from such a quote in a "Commentary" subsection. Marteau (talk) 13:11, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Re "The proposed quote does more than simply deny Russian involvement" – If you read it carefully, it does not deny Russian involvement. Here it is for reference, "[The Democrats] are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame. In my view this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity."

Also note that it is not a quote of what he said, which was in Russian, but rather a translation. It differs from the translation given on the President of Russia webcite, although it essentially has the same or similar meaning. Here it is for reference, "They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame. I think that this is an affront to their own dignity. It is important to know how to lose gracefully."[7]

--Bob K31416 (talk) 15:43, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. Putin's comment could be more properly considered a comment, or reaction. Which actually makes it perfectly appropriate material for the "Commentary and Reaction" section, which is of course what this RfC is about. Marteau (talk) 21:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Any opinion polls about this topic?

- 0x5849857 (talk) 00:53, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

@0x5849857: Fox News did a poll on this. Politico/Morning Consult did another poll more recently. ^Falling_Gravity 02:04, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

@FallingGravity: Any way to introduce this to the text? - 0x5849857 (talk) 17:26, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

I would be opposed to including any opinion polls in this article. Polls are notoriously unreliable and really have no bearing on the factual veracity of the subject.- MrX 19:15, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

It is worth putting in. BTW polls are very reliable, it's just that they are not precise enough to predict close elections. In the U.S. presidential election for example, they showed Clinton beating Trump in the popular vote by 4%, she beat him by 2%, which was within the 4% margin of error. TFD (talk) 20:52, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

The polls in question ask whether members of the public think the interference made any difference, which is a notoriously difficult question to answer (despite most folk's willingness to try). A poll of political science experts would be better, but still asking a basically unanswerable question because no-one truly knows what would have happened absent the interference. The fact is that we don't know the extents of the interference, we don't know the specific tactics of those engaged in it, and the vast majority of us don't know what effect those tactics would have, or how they would play off each other. "What would have happened if..." is one of the most hypothetical questions ever, which rarely produces answers which are in any way useful.

Hell, the very numbers of the polls might be telling. If just under half of the 1/3 of voters mentioned (the number who, in the polls, believed the interference affected the outcome divided by the percentage of voters who supported Clinton, a highly conservative estimate given what I'm figuring) had turned to Trump over Clinton as a result of the interference, then Clinton would have won by an absolute landslide if not for the interference.

At the end of the day, the public lacks the expertise and information necessary to draw an informed conclusion on this, and informed conclusions to such a hypothetical question are extremely unreliable, anyways. MrX is absolutely right that the polls have no bearing on the 'truth' of this subject. That being said, I'm not convinced that invalidates them from being used in the article. I think a brief mention would be quite acceptable. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 21:33, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

The purpose of the polls isn't to determine the correct answer to the question but to determine what people's opinions are. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:15, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

That's correct, and it has very little to do with the subject of this article which is is Russian interference. Mentioning the polls is a red herring that attempts to lead readers to believe that Russia was not able to influence the election, so their attempts to do so should be dismissed. If Russia was able to influence the election, polling the people who were influenced would tend to produce meaningless results. Show me a poll of Canadians and then we will have something to talk about.- MrX 12:17, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

@MrX: Mentioning the polls is a red herring... That's certainly possible, but not necessarily inevitable. I think a single sentence, at the end of the Experts and scholars subsection would sufficiently contextualize the information. something like "In contrast to the expert reaction, public polls taken by Fox News and Politico showed that only about 1/3 of the general population felt that the interference had an impact on the election."

Also, it is relevant precisely because it is a reaction to these events. Which is a different way of saying that it is only relevant as a reaction to these events. It barely warrants a sentence, but barely counts, IMHO. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

MjolnirPants, I guess I could live with that, but no more.- MrX 13:58, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Do the "experts and scholars" even agree that it "had an impact on the election"? For example, just because an expert believes that Russia interfered doesn't necessarily mean that they believe it made a significant difference. ^Falling_Gravity 18:51, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

We may not be able to say, "In contrast to the expert reaction" unless there is a reliable source that makes that comparison. (WP:NOR) Maybe someone can find such a reliable source? --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:36, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@FallingGravity and Bob K31416: Do the "experts and scholars" even agree that it "had an impact on the election"? From my exposure to the RSes, it seems so. That being said, I admit that it's an assumption on my part based on the nature of the opinions the experts have given. However, there's a case to be made for contrasting the certainty expressed in the polls vs the ambiguity of the exact quotes from the experts. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 01:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

I didn't see anything in your message addressing the problem re WP:NOR, which I mentioned in my last message. You need to address that before continuing. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:54, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

You should have read the last sentence of my comment, then. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:20, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Balance

This is BALANCE that is sorely missing in this entire article. It needs a section describing WHAT was exposed by said interference. Many citizens would be happy to have that information regardless of who hacked it, others would prefer it have never been exposed, the point being the WHOLE story is NOT the Russians interfered it is more the Russians expose democratic party's misdeeds.Aceruss (talk) 07:49, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

If you want the article to discuss the content of the leaks, here is what you should do: find a number of news articles (not opinion pieces) in reputable sources (think major newspapers) that discuss the contents of the leaks. Then list those sources below, and perhaps write a paragraph or two that summarizes those sources, using neutral language. I suspect that the inclusion of this topic will be contentious, so laying out your proposed addition here on the talk page first would be best. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:59, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

This article is not about what was exposed by the emails stolen from the DNC. We already have an article about that.- MrX 12:23, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Surely some description of what is alleged to have been stolen in these hacks is relevant here. After all, the content of the leaks is integral to the accusation of election interference. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:00, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Honestly, this article is really retarded and just repeatedly states that "U.S. officials were confident Russia had interfered with the election" followed by references. Where's the proof that Russia did? Seriously, stupid. This article, atleast the intro, needs to be re-written. Ghoul flesh • talk 01:51, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

If Adrian Chen's "observation" about a pattern of trolling can be quoted, then it would be reasonable to quote the Transition Team's characterization of the Intelligence Community's report

There's a section in the article entitled Russian troll's support for Trump, which starts off with this musing:

Adrian Chen observed a pattern in December 2015 where pro-Russian accounts became supportive of 2016 U.S. presidential candidate Donald Trump.[41] Chen noted the trolls "have turned into conservatives, like fake conservatives... all tweeting about Donald Trump and stuff", and wrote "maybe it's some really opaque strategy of like, electing Donald Trump to undermine the U.S. or something, like false flag kind of thing."[41][42]

If this is sort of speculation is appropriate, then surely the Transition Team's much more succinct reminder that the (presumed) originators of the election interference idea, were, after all, the same guys who proclaimed that Hussein had WMD should surely also merit quoting.

(What the article currently says is that Trump "rejected" the report and "attacked" the intelligence services. This is needlessly non-specific and i think incomplete enough to be misleading. There are a lot of quotes in the article, but not sure there are any from the Transition Team.)

Son of eugene (talk) 08:49, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

It's already in the article. It's always a good idea to read the article before pointing out what's wrong with it.- MrX 12:33, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Ah, great, thanks Mr. X. I searched for the string "WMD" and didn't see it, and so wrongly concluded that the quote wasn't in there. Son of eugene (talk) 04:40, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Hasn't the FBI spoken for itself?

I was surprised to read in this article, under the FBI section, that it was Brennan (the CIA Director) who published in a memo that the FBI agreed with the CIA (after there had been questions about it). But apparently, other than not having publicly denied the claim, the FBI has not affirmed its agreement. I did go to the provided sources, two of them are essentially the same text and all three say just that, that Brennan made the claim... and that's it. I couldn't find anything by the FBI itself expressing agreement with the CIA. If such a source exists, it should be included.2001:8A0:F009:9A01:4407:1AC3:DFE9:E4A9 (talk) 01:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 29 December 2016

2016 United States election interference by Russia → Intelligence reports of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections – After numerous chaotic title changes for this article, the latest move request is not heading towards consensus, as Support arguments advocate better grammar, while Oppose arguments are aimed at the inconsistency between the title and the article contents, an issue that has been present ever since the article was created. WP:POVTITLE has been cited, arguing that the current title states Russian interference in the US elections as fact in WP voice, whereas the article contents and sources attribute the accusations to US intelligence reports and discuss other points of view as well.

Some alternative titles have been proposed in the discussion, and I would like to submit the (imho) most neutral one to a formal move request. Here is my evaluation of this proposal according to the five WP titling criteria:

• Recognizability – The proposed title explicitly names the subject matter (interference in US elections), the alleged perpetrator (Russia) and the source of such allegations (intelligence reports), thereby accurately reflecting article contents and cited sources.
• Naturalness – The proposed title is grammatically clearer and better worded than the current one.
• Precision – The proposed title incorporates elements that have been debated earlier, i.e. the word "interference" rather than "involvement", the scope of 2016 US elections (not limited to the presidency), the discussion of Russia as the main focus of investigators and the attribution of accusations to intelligence reports. All these elements contribute to precision.
• Conciseness – Prior discussions have established that we cannot remove any element of this title without appearing biased.
• Consistency – In most election-related articles, the title does not begin with the year. As this event is rather exceptional, there is not much consistency to expect, although we could cite Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil War and Opposition to United States involvement in the Vietnam War as similarly-structured titles.

Let the discussion begin! — JFG ^talk 09:51, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - Thank you for citing the five title criteria, but your assertions that your proposed title satisfies the first two of those criteria is easily refuted. First of all, this article is not about "intelligence reports"; it is about the much broader topic of Russian interference in the election, its impact, reaction, reports, congressional actions, executive actions, and so on. It would be like renaming Watergate scandal to Burglary arrests at the Watergate office complex. Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections is by far the better title. The main argument opposing it is WP:POVTITLE because Russia denies it. That's almost comical in that it ignores WP:V and the fact that sources overwhelmingly accept that Russia actually did actual interfere with the US elections. Unfortunately, we have editors who use POV to mean anything that deviates from their own personal point of view, and that is very wrong. When these oppose arguments are in the previous move request are appropriately discounted, as well as the suspicious vote by a user whose only edit in the past seven years was to the move request, I think it has a good chance of achieving consensus. Also, it's only been active for eight days, so creating another move request seems out of process.- MrX 12:29, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@MrX: WP:Move requests normally run for 7 days, so the one above should get closed soon, and I don't see how a reasonable closer would assess anything but "no consensus" given the state of the discussion, thus offering a new MR for consideration is legitimate, although I must admit it's a bit hasty on my part. Besides, you shouldn't have added a !vote in your own move request; the closer knows that you support yourself.

Regarding the meat of the matter, we obviously disagree about the current title's neutrality or lack thereof. Note that "Watergate scandal" isn't titled "Richard Nixon's spying activities on his political opponents" and Nixon White House tapes isn't titled "Nixon's destruction of evidence in the Watergate scandal", although strong facts have been established in this historical case. At this point in the "Russia is undermining US elections" story, we don't know if Russia intervened and how, we know that US intelligence agencies say so and that Russian government denies it. We know that Democrats accuse Russia of leaking their emails and that WikiLeaks and Guccifer 2.0 say Russia is not the source. We know that Trump was elected and that many people have done and will do whatever they can to make him appear illegitimate. Most importantly in my opinion, we know that both Trump and Putin want to rebuild confidence in relations between their countries whereas their political opponents want to pursue an adversarial strategy and continue the defiant posturing on both sides as in the heydays of the Cold War (which, being neither Russian nor American, worries me). All of this is great WP:FORUM material but shouldn't influence how we name articles. And when I read this article again and again, it talks mostly about which intelligence agency said what when, and how various politicians reacted, but it's quite short on discussing the actual interference process or evidence thereof. Hence my proposal to focus on "intelligence reports" in the title as well. The proposed title doesn't discredit those reports and it doesn't call the interference "alleged", so I believe that it is the most neutral title that has been floated so far. — JFG ^talk 21:39, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose for all the reasons identified by MrX. Additionally, this should not have been opened as a separate requested move, but rather should be added to the already-existed requested move as an alternative proposal, so editors may discuss the competing proposals side-by-side. Neutrality^talk 13:53, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Move requests with several proposals tend to get bogged down and end up inconclusive. It's much easier and efficient to decide on a particular title proposal. — JFG ^talk 21:50, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Per the arguments above, and per the simple fact that the RSes are reporting Russian involvement (and have been since August at least). This is clearly yet another attempt to whitewash deprecate Russia's involvement. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 15:38, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Your WP:Aspersions are not constructive. — JFG ^talk 21:52, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Ignoring for now the fact that I did not cast any aspersions, your response is 'equally' nonconstructive. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:15, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

How is this not an aspersion? "This is clearly yet another attempt to whitewash Russia's involvement." You should strike through that statement in your above comment. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:33, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

WP:ASPERSIONS and dictionary.com - aspersion are how. I made a comment about this proposal while implying that it was one of multiple reasons why I disagree with the proposal in the context of explaining the previous sentence. The fact that it offended you in some way is frankly, not my problem. WP:AGF and get over it. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:50, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Since there are multiple requests to change the article's title, it might be better to close these discussions and start a Request for Comment so we can reach a consensus title. ^Falling_Gravity 22:28, 29 December 2016 (UTC)