Wikipedia talk:Harassment

Statement by Legal

We have an excellent statement just published by legal. Have linked to it from this page. Specifically it clarifies what the "privacy policy" applies to, which is private data collected by the WMF. Additionally the WMF appears to support "Posting links to other accounts on other websites is allowable on a case-by-case basis."

They state

"It’s also important to remember that WP:OUTING can’t be used as a way to avoid the disclosure requirements in the Terms of Use: if someone is editing for a company and fails to disclose it, an admin properly posting that person’s company where it is relevant to an investigation is part of their job to help bring the account into compliance with those requirements."

And

"But we think it is appropriate, as described above, to post some already public personal information as part of a good faith investigation. We trust that editors, administrators, and functionaries can tell the difference in the vast majority of cases, and they can always contact the Wikimedia Foundation if a controversial borderline case arises."

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:47, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks for that. it obviously needed to be linked here — Iadmc♫^talk  03:26, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

• Wikimedia Foundation statement on paid editing and outing does three useful things:

• It confirms that the privacy policy applies only to information collected by the Foundation and its partners and obtained by editors and others while carrying out paid and unpaid roles. Apparently some editors were confused on that point, and believed that it also applied to deciding when to apply the "case by case" sentence, so that is helpful.

• It clarifies that the outing policy cannot be used to avoid complying with the terms of use. That is, WP:PAID trumps WP:OUTING when we request "employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation".

• It asks for common sense and good judgment in deciding when it is acceptable to post publicly available personal information.

SarahSV ^(talk) 23:52, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I, for one, am delighted that WMF legal has posted this. About the case-by-case language here at this policy page, it is important that editors understand that the "privacy policy" referred to by the WMF is the policy at meta, and not the personal information section of the policy here. Two different things. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:28, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Tryptofish is right, enacting this statement would require en-WP policy change (for more of which see section below). Also as below, editors should not rely on the WMF statement as immediate authorization to post personal information on-wiki; if you'd like a policy change to enact the statement, please identify and obtain that policy change first. -- Euryalus (talk) 01:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Except that Tryptofish didn't say that (see also my comment below), but of course I am indeed right. Editors should indeed tread very carefully for the time being, until the local consensus is achieved. But en-wiki is subject to the meta Terms of Use whether or not ArbCom or anyone else would like to have a policy that is contrary to the Terms of Use. So, WMF Legal's interpretation of the Terms on undisclosed paid editing is already in effect here, without the need for en-wiki to "enact" it. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:46, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Ah,apologies for misinterpreting your rightness. Let me rephrase by not mentioning Tryptofish and simply urging people to uphold the existing harassment policy unless/until there is consensus for change. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:05, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. From now on, I want to be addressed as "Your Rightness". (joke) --Tryptofish (talk) 02:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

• I had a question concerning this statement. Just to be clear, the language refers only to paid editing. We encounter many COI situations in which it is either not paid editing or it is unclear if the definition applies. Am I correct in assuming that this statement refers to only paid editing and not other COI situations? Coretheapple (talk) 14:20, 20 January 2017 (UTC)meh, reading it again I think the scope is clear. Coretheapple (talk) 15:33, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Socks of undisclosed paid WP editing companies

I have started a list here of the blocked socks used by companies involved in undisclosed paid editing to help with future follow up and enforcement of the TOU. IMO this list follows the spirit and letter of the WP:Harassment policy. Before I work on it further; however, I would like to get further community input. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, this isn't in line with policy as worded. The only case by case basis that outing currently allows is accounts on websites, not employer information. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:54, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it up. I don't see that we have much choice but to get far clearer on what those "case by case" situations are.

...an admin properly posting that person’s company... So, should we make this a situation where admin involvement is required in disclosing a company? --Ronz (talk) 22:38, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

We could ask legal to clarify it they meant to restrict this to admins. I would say it should not be. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:42, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree that we'd be much better off knowing what legal meant. Requiring admin involvement seems a large burden that's unnecessary. --Ronz (talk) 22:47, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

What is probably meant by company within the sentence "if someone is editing for a company ..." is employer as the term is used within the Terms of Use, namely whoever is paying for the edits. Or it could mean client. The point of the sentence is that we are allowed to say who the employer and client are. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:04, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

You could list those already publicly outed by necessity and take it from there. A list would certainly be useful to help the eagle eyed — Iadmc♫^talk  23:42, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

What we actually need is clarity from the arbcom. They could easily say "yes Legal has advised X but we are stricter", and I must note that they have already banned users for outing blatant bad faith spammers. Ping GorillaWarfare, your commentary on this, both personal and speaking for the arbcom, are probably required at this point - David Gerard (talk) 00:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Not sure if you're asking for my commentary on the WMF statement or on the advisability of this page, so I'll give you both. I can only give you my personal take at the moment: I'm horrified at the statement, as it condones (even endorses) posting personal information of editors if there's even the slightest concern of wrongdoing, with the only "requirement" being some plausible deniability that it was good faith. I think it completely undermines the harassment policy and the WMF's November commitment towards working to end harassment. I am hoping that the ArbCom will be publishing a response, though we're still discussing it. As for this page, I think it's a terrible idea. The statement explicitly said that it had no change on community policy, so I'm not sure why you now feel a page like this is a good idea. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I suggest we actually need is clarity from the community. To enact the WMF paid editing statement in full, the community would need to:

• amend WP:HARASS to permit "outing" to the extent necessary to conduct a good-faith paid editing investigation, and/or
• amend WP:BLOCKEVIDENCE to permit individual admins to block editors on the basis of private evidence provided directly to them and not able to be published for peer review; and/or
• positively require functionaries or Arbcom (as a subset of the admin community) to receive and act on personally identifying information in the context of paid editing investigations (but see below)

Option three offers the least policy change, as both functionaries and Arbcom are already authorized to receive and act on certain pieces of personal information. However there are longstanding restrictions (and traditions) on what evidence is considered, how it is obtained and to what degree it is relied upon. There has not traditionally been a positive obligation on either group to conduct or oversee offwiki investigations; there is reasonably strong opposition to generalized wikisleuthing by functionaries (see for example the ContribsX case of 2015), and past discussion on this talkpage indicates most functionaries are reluctant to enhance their offwiki investigatory role for reasons to do with privacy, harassment prevention and the law.

With any option, the community would also need to consider how changes might affect the anti-harassment policy being simultaneously developed by the WMF :- essentially whether or not enacting the paid editing statement increases the risk of harassment of individual editors; and if so, whether this is or is not worth it to reduce the prevalence of paid editing on Wikipedia.

I'll offer some personal views in the statement from Arbcom (if that eventuates). Hopefully the above is seen as more of a practical presentation of the options.

Further, please note that regardless of its rights or wrong the WMF statement does not of itself change any en-WP policy - before anyone seeks to enact the WMF statement they should seek community consensus to obtain policy change. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:57, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Euryalus, the policy has said, since February 2015: "Posting links to other accounts on other websites is allowable on a case-by-case basis." It's an unsatisfactory sentence, but the point of it is to allow common sense and "stating the bleedin' obvious", especially when it comes to paid editing. The statement from legal doesn't seem to go beyond that. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:17, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

The statement from legal seems to be being twisted to suit whatever desired outcome is wanted here. All legal did was reconfirm their position all along that the privacy policy, as far as they are concerned, is in regards to information collected by the Foundation. Of course that is all they are going to say on the matter. That is all they care about. They would be pissed if a CU was run on a potential undisclosed paid editor as that would be using Foundation information. You must draw a distinction between what legal is actually concerned about and what is being discussed here. Outside information is none of legal's concern as it isn't Foundation collected info. It is up to enwiki policy (and therefore community consensus) to determine what to do with that. --Majora (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Can you provide a citation for this please "They would be pissed if a CU was run on a potential undisclosed paid editor as that would be using Foundation information." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:28, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot "unless there is enough evidence that supports sock puppetry to warrant a checkuser." As is the case with any CU. The Foundation would be quite angry if a CU is run without merit. Hence the privacy policy, the existence of complaint channels, and the existence of the ombudsman commission. (and you don't have to cite the sky is blue). --Majora (talk) 02:31, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Sure of course CU should not be "run without merit". No one has ever requested them to be. Evidence of undisclosed paid promotional editing however is "merit". Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:36, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Try to see the bigger point beyond the "CU" part of the post. Legal's response was completely and totally predicable and inline with what legal actually cares about. That should, in no way, give anyone the green light to do anything on enwiki unless community consensus allows for it. As SarahSV stated. The policy already has a provision for allowance on a case-by-case basis and the previous RfC on opening that up further was closed and archived as stale (with no clear consensus to change anything). So legal's response was predicable and enwiki policy still dictates what happens on enwiki. If you want to change that you can always open another RfC. As it stands, it looks like we are stuck with the "case-by-case basis" wording that is currently in the policy --Majora (talk) 02:44, 20 January 2017 (UTC).

In a sense, Legal's opinion is just their opinion and not binding. And, yes, their agenda is not our agenda. But the Terms of Use, themselves, are binding on all Wikimedia projects. And we're not stuck with the "case-by-case" wording, as wording. --Tryptofish (talk) 03:00, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Tryptofish the ToU related to paid editing is not at all binding on all Wikimedia projects, as they can be overridden by the local community, which is why Commons does not require any disclosure of paid contributions from its contributors. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 13:40, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

The TOU is an absolute base level expectation that, of course, is binding for everyone. Just because posting other information about other sites does not violate the TOU (per legal) does not mean it would not violate enwiki policy. That is decided by the enwiki community and can be more stringent than the baseline (and often is). --Majora (talk) 03:05, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Majora, what you say is correct (in that we can have a local policy about harassment that is more stringent than what the ToU requires), but in this specific instance we are talking about ToU that require disclosure, so saying locally that disclosure is voluntary is not going above the ToU baseline, but rather setting a less stringent requirement. But more importantly, yes Kelapstick you are partially correct and I was partially incorrect. Looking more carefully into the link that you gave, and other information at meta, it is indeed the case that the ToU can be overridden by a local policy that may "either strengthen or reduce the requirements". Well, I'll be! But it's also important to note that such an alternative disclosure policy is permitted only when (1) we "gain consensus specifically to replace the paid editing disclosure requirements in the Terms of Use with the policy of the project", and (2) "After creating such a policy, projects must include their policy on the list of alternative disclosure policies." Note: "must". Right now, that has occurred for Commons, MediaWiki, and Russian Wikibooks, but not for us at en-Wiki. ArbCom cannot declare it. The community must create a new policy page on paid editing, because one does not now exist. Once it has gotten community consensus, we have to list it at meta:Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies. Until then, we are bound by the meta ToU on paid editing. That's the way it is. And before somebody proposes such a policy, we all need to think hard on why the ToU describe undisclosed paid editing as "deceptive" and "fraud". --Tryptofish (talk) 17:33, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Actually, we do already have Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure, but it says nothing about privacy or harassment issues, pretty much just repeating the ToU, and isn't listed at meta. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:39, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

A new policy that would revoke the ToU needs an "RfC (that) must be conducted in a manner consistent with the standard consensus-based process for establishing core policies." That's a fairly high standard. OTOH, once the current policy was established, modifying it in a way that does not weaken the ToU is accomplished in the same way that any other policy is modified. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:43, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Agree that it is the community from which we need greater clarity not Arbcom. Arbcom does not determine policy. IMO it is a bad idea to expect a group of volunteers (ie arbcom) to take on a duty they do not want as one of two things will likely happen. (1) they will not do it (2) they will do a really bad job. We do not need to protect the blocked accounts of undisclosed paid editors. We do need these details on Wikipedia to help detect their future accounts. We need to do this not only to protect the quality of our content and our reputation but to protect those who are being mislead by these companies (ie. their clients).

If we had a list of companies that are banned from editing Wikipedia because they do not follow the TOU, their clients will find this list when looking up the company and maybe not hire them. Right now we are simply sitting ideal and allowing these undisclosed paid editors to create the only story being told. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

It's significant that the WMF said "WP:OUTING can't be used as a way to avoid the disclosure requirements in the Terms of Use". That's an important point, with important implications for local policy. We at en-wiki certainly can set tougher standards for what constitutes harassment, than the minimum defined by WMF. And that's why it is indeed important for the community here to work towards a consensus about our policy. And furthermore, it's the community that should make policy, not ArbCom. But here is the significance of what WMF said: the Terms of Use cannot be overridden by a local project consensus. The Terms of Use are binding on all Wikimedia projects. Thus, however we decide to configure the wording of WP:OUTING, we cannot do it in a manner that tends to violate the Terms concerning undisclosed paid editing. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:40, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

+1 to that. If an account is blocked for undisclosed paid promotional editing and there is evidence that they are associated with a specific WP editing company, IMO this supports us linking them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:46, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

The terms of use do not call for third parties disclosing the paid editing. There is no conflict between outing and the TOU, the TOU says you have to self identify if you are to do paid editing. Outing prevents third parties from identifying you. What's more it doesn't say that a third party disclosing for you meets the requirements. So, a person who identifies a paid editor does not bring that editor in compliance with the TOU. In turn this means that meeting the TOU cannot be used to OUT another editor. On a slightly related note, if we are to implement anything I think it should fall within Euryalus's second or third bullet above. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:23, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

In a sense, "a person who identifies a paid editor does not bring that editor in compliance with the TOU", in that identifying personal information (as we define "personal information") is not what the ToU requires. The violating editor remains not-in-compliance personally, even after someone else makes the disclosure. But it's not really important whether the third party editor brings the offending editor "into compliance", in the sense of making them "see the light". After all, who cares about that? What matters is undoing the damage to Wikipedia's content that is done by the undisclosed paid editing. And identifying a violator's status as an undisclosed paid editor, and the specific way that the undisclosed paid editing is fraudulent, does in fact undo the damage done by the violation. Unless the community here decides to enact an alternative disclosure policy, the ToU that treats paid editing as something that must be disclosed overrides the outing policy here. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

The TOU treats paid editing as something that must be disclosed by the person doing the paid editing. That's it. End of text. It doesn't treat paid editing as something that the community must ferret out and identify, if we want to make that something that is a requirement of the community we need to change policy to do so. But, as is, there is no conflict because there is no requirement. --Kyohyi (talk) 17:18, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

What you are writing there is just a distraction. No one has written that "the community must ferret out and identify" undisclosed paid editors. If you don't want to spend time dealing with it, of course you don't have to. Of course. The question here is what those who want to address undisclosed paid editing can and cannot do. Jytdog (talk) 17:33, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and the ToU do treat undisclosed paid editing as prohibited, and expect local communities to enforce it. Otherwise, we have a nonsense situation: paid editing must be disclosed, but if you choose not to disclose it, nobody will stop you. Please note, however: we can still find ways to disclose paid editing by users who fail to disclose it, without violating those users' "private information" as defined by the outing policy, although the boundaries are fuzzy, and are not de-fuzzied by "case-by-case". --Tryptofish (talk) 17:44, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

It's not a distraction, it's a response to Doc James list. The justification is that the list is enforcing the TOU and identifying employers albeit by third parties. Identifying employers by third parties is not a requirement in the TOU. Identifying of employers by third parties is a violation of outing. Therefore the TOU and OUTING are not in conflict, and the list should not exist. --Kyohyi (talk) 17:52, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Basing an argument on things that no one is saying is a distraction and WP:DISRUPTIVE. Do not misrepresent other editors. No one is saying that "Identifying employers by third parties is a requirement in the TOU." If you don't understand the arguments being made, please ask. Jytdog (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's pretty clear you aren't getting my argument, and you shouldn't misrepresent me. Identification of employers by third parties does not meet the requirements in the TOU. Identification of employers by third parties is outing. Doc James said "I have started a list here of the blocked socks used by companies involved in undisclosed paid editing to help with future follow up and enforcement of the TOU.". This list includes the paid editing companies/organizations. Linking the two together is outing per employer. This list does nothing to enforce the TOU. What's more, this statement from Doc James "+1 to that. If an account is blocked for undisclosed paid promotional editing and there is evidence that they are associated with a specific WP editing company, IMO this supports us linking them" is pretty clear that he thinks we can link editors to WP editing companies. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:21, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Let me clarify. I think we can and should link "BANNED" editors to WP editing companies they work for. The word banned is very important here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:12, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Banned editors have all the same protections of outing as other editors. And while I think your trying to move us past the deadlock that we've come to, I don't agree with the direction are proposing. I would, however, support a resolution that's closer in line to what's done at SPI. --Kyohyi (talk) 20:07, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Socks: arbitrary break

• Support list connecting blocker users to their affiliated spam organizations Even though I support I also wish for ongoing conversation. One basis for conflict here is the premise that we Wikipedians are unable to differentiate between more rare, more horrible things like sexual harassment of vulnerable people on wiki and more common, commercial misuse of the website like posting promotional information on behalf of a company. I continue to think that countering harassment as traditionally imagined is important, and that countering spam is important, and I am not persuaded that these issues should be combined and be managed with a uniform process. I wish to promote safety on Wikipedia but I am not ready to agree that identifying companies and users who exploit Wikipedia as a business practice necessarily compromises the safety of individuals in harassment or stalking situations.

I am ready to support whatever personal protections for individuals anyone would propose. At the same time, I think that the problem of spam in Wikipedia has been a burden to thousands of editors, millions of readers, the source of many or most conflicts in Wikipedia, a wasteful unsatisfying time sink of volunteer labor, and an issue which can be singled out for special treatment like posting on a list. If there is enough evidence to block someone for spamming Wikipedia then it seems reasonable to me that there is enough evidence to list such users as being blocked for spamming Wikipedia, and to link those blocked accounts to the publicly accepted evidence which was used to create a rationale for the block. This might be in conflict with some current policies but as a practical matter the issue should be addressed. Previously some of the rules in Wikipedia have shown extraordinary favoritism to support the most obvious and complained about spammers in attacking and defiling Wikipedia for commercial gain. Spam is its own issue, and while the spam issue is addressed, I confirm that the OUTING policy should be strengthened for people who use it for reasons other than to post spam.

Let's keep the OUTING policy but make changes to help counter the worst spam. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I think that Bluerasberry makes excellent points about not letting outing policy get out of balance with the need to control deceptive paid editing. I'd also like to point back to what WMF Legal said that was quoted at the beginning of this discussion:

"It's also important to remember that WP:OUTING can't be used as a way to avoid the disclosure requirements in the Terms of Use: if someone is editing for a company and fails to disclose it, an admin properly posting that person’s company where it is relevant to an investigation is part of their job to help bring the account into compliance with those requirements."

Even given that we can develop, gain consensus for, and list, an en-wiki policy that handles the issue differently than that, it's worth thinking carefully about the point being made. Imagine a paid editor who takes the attitude that, because of the outing policy, they can ignore the disclosure requirement even to the point of causing major disruption. We don't need to have other editors posting that person's name, address, family members, etc. But do we really want to say that saying the person "is being paid by XYZ company to disrupt Wikipedia" is something that we want to treat the same way that we treat someone who stalks another editor and posts harassing personal information about them? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Trypto, with regard to Imagine a paid editor who takes the attitude that, because of the outing policy, they can ignore the disclosure requirement even to the point of causing major disruption. - that is already settled here in en-wiki - editors cannot avoid disclosing on the basis that it would make them OUT themselves. See this old ANI discussion and particularly this summarizing section. The statement from legal is really trying to talk about how to handle personal information in the midst of ToU discussions in light of OUTING.

What you write about threading the needle in balancing addressing ToU violations and OUTING, by categorizing ToU disclosures (employer and affiliation) in a different "class" of personal information, is very interesting. Something to try to get consensus around!! Jytdog (talk) 20:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, and I agree with everything that you said, and the links are quite helpful. I agree with you that there is already a good basis at en-wiki to conclude that editors cannot refuse to disclose on the basis that doing so would out themselves. That's the way that I understand it, too, and it's reinforced by what the WMF has said. But here is why I raised it that way: Other editors have been arguing in this discussion that if a paid editor chooses not to disclose, and another editor makes the disclosure for them, then the paid editor has a legitimate complaint that the other editor is in the wrong for supposedly having violated the outing policy. I'm explaining that the paid editor's complaint is not really valid. And given that, it becomes problematic to sanction the other editor for outing nonetheless. If the paid editor has no justification for failing to disclose, then how can they be harassed by having the disclosure take place? And indeed the WMF said that a user "properly posting that person's company where it is relevant to an investigation" is appropriate, and consequently is not harassment. (Again, I have no quibble with also saying that only the minimum necessary amout of information should be made public.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

You're missing the confirmation bias, and circular reasoning. If the "paid editor" is not a paid editor then they don't have to disclose. And information about paid editing can be faked, and unrelated people can be banned/blocked. --Kyohyi (talk) 22:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you that posting personal information about the wrong person is a troubling problem, and one that must be taken into account. But it is not circular reasoning to argue that the problem with undisclosed paid editing is large, and the problem of misidentification is relatively infrequent. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Let me add: you have a valid concern about outing someone who does not deserve to be outed, but there is likewise a valid concern about blocking an editor trying in good faith to control COI editing. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:19, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes we all agree that posting wrong information could be a problem. But this proposal is only for banned users. And we are just posting the WP editing company they are associated with. If a banned user get associated with a paid Wikipedia editing company by error not sure that has huge negative repercussions. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:27, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

You're not sure there are "huge negative repercussions" to publicly accusing someone of misdeeds they didn't commit, in an environment where they can't respond? Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

And why can they not respond? These business continue on just fine even though we block bunches of their accounts. But yes I am sure there are not significant negative repercussions from listing accounts involved in undisclosed paid editing as accounts that are involved in paid editing. We do it already. Connecting them with a company changes not one iota from a "negative repercussions" angle Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:16, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

In your view, what would that minimum necessary amount of information be? -- Euryalus (talk) 21:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

In one fish's opinion: that there is paid editing, and either the party that is doing the paying or the specific nature of the editing agenda (the latter because editors need to understand what the POV was). But that answer doesn't really solve the problem. Say that XYZ Company paid the editor to do promotional editing, and there's a good chance that someone reading that will have enough information to search for more information than that. I've seen ArbCom block users for saying things that did not disclose personal information, but gave readers a clue as to how to find that personal information. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

• as Doc James just noted, this subsection is about a list of blocked socks who have been tied to companies offering paid editing services. It is hard to stay on topic! But let's do. Jytdog (talk) 22:30, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Or start a new subsection. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

• Note: A related discussion has sprung up (my fault) at User talk:Jytdog#Off-wiki handling of COI evidence. Comment there, or here in a new subsection, or... I don't know. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:44, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Also a discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:50, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• Three things which seem to be not generally understood in some parts of the discussion:

(1) This is not the WMF Statement about the policy that applies only at meta. It is the WMF statement about the policy that applies at enWP, , as the introductory paragraph makes clear (and presumably also at all WMF projects).

(2) While enWP may have a stricter privacy policy it may not have a stricter privacy policy that interferes unreasonably with enforcement of the minimum WMF policy on paid editing

(3)The formal opinion of WMF Legal about what enWP is required to do is fundamental to all policy at the enWP. We operate under their structure. DGG ( talk ) 00:41, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

• In my opinion, that's exactly right. But I would also add, per my interchange with Kelapstick above, that WMF spells out a specific procedure for setting a local en-wiki policy that differs from the meta ToU. But we can do that only by following that procedure. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:49, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

With regard to claims in #3 about the role of WMF in en-wiki's development and interpreting of the en-wiki OUTING policy, this is in my view charged territory and I ask folks to step very, very lightly. The autonomy of each project is a very old and fundamental part of the ToU. I am glad to have WMF legal's statement on these matters but from my view it is just an important voice (and this is not what I wanted them to focus on - I wanted them to focus on what they could do, directly, with respect to companies that advertise paid editing services but have no on-wiki disclosures). And please don't make claims that WMF is "requiring" anything of the en-wiki community in that statement; I don't see that they are. Jytdog (talk) 01:15, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

#2 is an interesting point; as always, the devil is in the details about how to "enforce" (meaning police and then adjudicate alleged violations of) the paid editing aspect of the ToU while not violating OUTING/Privacy. It isn't simple. Jytdog (talk) 01:15, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, I think we all are stepping lightly, in the sense that this is simply a discussion. But the WMF make it clear that, in the present day, their ToU do apply here, and local consensus cannot merely shrug that off. In fact, as I noted above, they provide an explicit procedure for making our policies different than what it says at meta. We can do that, so in that sense WMF is indeed allowing for autonomy, but that does not mean that we can spontaneously do anything that we want. And the fact that they have a procedure for creating a different policy means that they intend, absent that procedure, that what they say is a sort of requirement. (Think about it this way: if WMF, instead of en-wiki, had the outing policy as part of the ToU, we could not simply say that outing is OK here on the basis of a local autonomy.) --Tryptofish (talk) 01:36, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Of course the obligations for paid editors to disclose employer, client, and affiliation apply in en-Wiki unless we make a different policy. That isn't the question here. Jytdog (talk) 01:52, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Break 2

I think it's fair to say that a many of editors are concerned about undisclosed paid editing and the effect it is having on the English Wikipedia. We have all worked hard to make the English Wikipedia what it is today and to see it being undermined without the means or tools to counter it has been frustrating. To me, the central problem and barrier has been that 'undisclosed paid editing' includes an unreasonably wide range of cases with two types on either end:

1. Large scale operations involving sock puppetry, dozens if not hundreds of articles, and an elaborate attempt to willfully circumvent our policies and guidelines
2. Single article incidents that possibly involve WP:COI and maybe compensation (vaguely defined)

The second example could be a substitute teacher fixing a typo on an article about the school district in which they work. WMF Legal verified, elsewhere, that such an occasion would constitute undisclosed paid editing (an interpretation I am not sure is represented in the ToU and accompanying FAQ). In this example, the teacher is paid to be a teacher — not for their edits to Wikipedia — but because there is potentially a monetary benefit linked to their edits, according to WMF Legal, this is undisclosed paid editing.

I have absolutely no interest in going after editors even remotely in the same ballpark as the second example — let alone out their personal information (publicly available or not). More importantly, I have deep reservations about the practice of publicly posting any personal information about another editor. A person's digital footprint may include information that is publicly accessible and alone insignificant, but when amalgamated from various sources into one location and then posted to a place with the visibility of Wikipedia, has the potential for real harm. The further notion that this practice could occur during an investigation is equally as disturbing. What happens when an investigation concludes, well after the personal information has been revealed, that there was no wrong-doing or that the information was revealed under false pretexts. It is without question that such a situation could have lasting consequences for the individual whose information was revealed. We cannot expect every editor on the English Wikipedia understand the inherent risk they would putting themselves in by editing.

Something has to be done, but it is not what the WMF Legal is guiding the community towards. I am immensely proud of the work and policies the community has introduced over the years to protect the privacy of individuals in our community. The community decided a long time ago that the WMF's Terms of Use and Privacy Policy protected only the Foundation and more was needed to protect editors from hostile threats. The community has stuck by that decision. Personally, I am not wanting to see these protections disappear and the WMF depart from the longstanding practice to allow local projects to self-govern.

The community has a difficult road ahead; it must decide the fate of how undisclosed paid editing is handled on the English Wikipedia. Whatever that decision, it should align with the community's own core values and principals. Whether this translates to a policy: one that allows functionaries to evaluate privately submitted information (by the community) about undisclosed paid editing and grants functionaries the ability to block for ToU violations; or some other policy that empowers administrators (that I hope still preserves the protections offered by the community to all editors). Mkdw ^talk 04:10, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

I had this page on my mental list of "stuff to catch up with" and I was going to write a long post, but Mkdw nailed it. In every other context on Wikipedia, we operate by the principle of taking as much action as needed to protect the project, and no more. We don't reveal private information about vandals and trolls and sockpuppeteers unless the disclosure of that specific piece of information is necessary to protect the project from the offending user's actions. In those cases, what's being disclosed is usually something like an IP address or range - typically less personally identifying than a name or an employer - and those data are sourced directly to the checkuser logs, not to other editors' internet detective activities. And those are cases of actual demonstrated malice, rather than the typical paid editor's attempts to exploit our Google rankings or ride our coattails. It strikes me as very strange to see otherwise sensible people argue that we should provide information that is more identifying and less reliable with substantially weaker protection than we provide for data that is covered under the privacy policy.

It's too easy to overlook the fact that we have many examples like Mkdw's #2 above, and that even the #1s are still real flesh-and-blood people trying to put food on their tables in personal economic circumstances that make bottom-feeder internet freelancing seem like a good deal. I expect a lot of us have at one point or another made a short-sighted decision because of personal circumstances, and I'm certainly glad that none of mine have (to my knowledge, at least!) resulted in someone doxing me and accusing me of fraud on a high-traffic website. Furthermore, we're not very good at distinguishing "paid editor who obstinately refuses to admit to it" from "unpaid editor who's a big fan of their article topic and doesn't understand how to write for an encyclopedia". And we've seen a number of cases - real cases, not hypothetical what-ifs - of joe-jobs and impersonations in which established editors are misrepresented offsite as being available for paid work. It's important to remember that outing is irreversible - it can be contained and mitigated, if oversighters are quick enough, but it can't be purged from the brains of the people who've already seen the outing post, and it can't easily be removed from other sites that copy or mirror the post, and it can't (well, won't) be purged from the servers entirely. Outing or threats of outing constitute one of the most common forms of harassment reported to arbs and functionaries, and can be extremely distressing to the people affected. Those are very high stakes.

Importantly, as we invest our time in all of these conversations about "outing", we're missing the opportunity to explore the full range of possible ways to handle the actual, concrete problem presented by paid editing - namely, the problematic content it tends to produce. There are ways we can manage that problem without the need to publicly expose anyone's personal information or waste valuable volunteer time in error-prone amateur sleuthing. We could raise the notability criteria for people, products, and organizations, which are common topics both for paid editing and for other kinds of poor work (self-promotional, poorly sourced, under-watched BLPs, etc.) We could set up a "promo-prod" mechanism similar to BLP-prod to facilitate the deletion of content that isn't quite G11-worthy, but is unlikely to be developed in a reasonable amount of time. We could raise sourcing expectations. We could provide improved technical mechanisms for paid-contribution disclosures. We're on the harassment policy talk page, so this isn't the place for extended discussion of those things, but the point is we have a lot of unexplored options and underutilized resources to dedicate to this problem. I hope that we see some creative thinking about practical approaches to these issues. Oh shit, I failed at not writing a long post... ;) Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:16, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree completely with this "We don't reveal private information about vandals and trolls and sockpuppeteers unless the disclosure of that specific piece of information is necessary to protect the project from the offending user's actions. "

Having a list of what BANNED accounts are associated with what banned paid editing company is needed to protect the project from these offending companies actions. It is also required to protect people who are being not only mislead by the content they create but the people who pay these companies and think they are legit.

I do not see any credible argument that creating this sort of list will harm good faith editors.

Yes other measures are also needed to address undisclosed paid promotional editing. This is a complicated problems without a simple solution.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:48, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Opabinia regalis, this isn't the place to develop this, but I want to say that I strongly agree with your point: "We could raise the notability criteria for people, products, and organizations ... We could set up a "promo-prod" mechanism similar to BLP-prod to facilitate the deletion of content that isn't quite G11-worthy ..." Readers have gained the impression that anyone vaguely notable must have a page and should be able to control its content. If we were to enforce WP:NOT fully (particularly WP:NOTADVERTISING, WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:NOTFACEBOOK), a significant amount of paid editing would disappear. Doc James, attacking the cause makes a lot of sense. I don't have time to start a discussion about this elsewhere, but I'd be happy to take part in one. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:40, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

As below, I've been busy IRL recently and haven't had time to put much new thought into this; lack of time is one reason I haven't tried to start such a large-scale discussion either :) I do find it surprising that no one has, considering how much discussion there has been lately about paid editing in particular and quality control in general. Currently I am pretty backlogged on reading evidence for the open arb cases, but once those are closer to completion I'll give this a look. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:00, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Apologies if the answers to these are obvious, but a couple of questions:

• These editors were banned for UPE, but how do you know what specific editing services they were working for?(note: seeking a general answer, please don't post these specific editors' personal info here in response)
• What actual future evidentiary value could be obtained from such a list?
• Where an undisclosed paid editor is identified and banned, would it not be more useful to maintain a ready reckoner of the company articles they edited, so these can be watchlisted and routinely checked for promotional fluff, than to maintain a list of usernames which will never be reused? -- Euryalus (talk) 19:29, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Will email you the answer to the first bit.

The list will help people identify further socks from these companies. These companies have definitely created new accounts and are still editing.

It will help those who are being told that the companies are legitimate so they will not hire them in the first place. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:04, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know the answers to Euryalus' questions, but the "Break 2" discussion strikes me as very helpful, and I have an assortment of comments I want to make.

First, because it's getting lost in the tl;dr, I want to reiterate what I understand needs to be the procedure for enacting something here at en-Wiki that does not simply mirror the ToU at meta. It is explained at: meta:Terms of use/FAQ on paid contributions without disclosure#Can a local project adopt an alternative disclosure policy for paid editing?. We have to: (1) Develop a community (not ArbCom) consensus about a formal policy to take the place of the present Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure, that spells out what we do and do not allow to have posted onsite, and (2) list the new policy at meta:Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies.

Second, I am thinking about what specifically we need to figure out, and it grows out of a question that Euryalus asked me earlier in this discussion. We have to define, exactly, what we need to be able to post onsite that, just as Opabinia said, constitutes enough to take care of the undisclosed paid editing problem, and nothing more. I think it is:

1. The fact that there is undisclosed paid editing. (And just that, just a binary "is" or "isn't" that kind of editing.)
2. Enough information about either the business interest that is paying for the editing, or the POV that is being promoted, to guide editors in fixing the content. (How much of that is enough? We need to work that out. Maybe the actual name of a business if it is engaging in large-scale socking etc, but maybe not even the name if it's not that bad, just the business sector?)

I don't think anything more than that is needed. And we can probably hone #2 so that it does not leave enough bread crumbs to track down personal information. This has direct implications for the outing policy here: we ought to revise it to say explicitly that #1 and #2 are not included in the "personal information" that is protected, but everything else that is personal is. I'm thinking hard about making this something that does not open the door to the horror stories that the Arbs keep seeing. I read carefully what GorillaWarfare said at Jimbo-talk, and I think this information would not be anything like the Facebook material that she talked about. (Opabinia: your ideas about content, about raising notability requirements and so forth, would indeed be helpful in addition to this, but not instead of. That's because there will be people who will talk about the problem on talk pages and get confused about what they may post, and because people on both sides will try to game it. Notability, unlike porn, is not the kind of thing everyone recognizes when they see it.)

Third, we need to figure out whether or not the community still supports emailing information privately to administrators, or to functionaries, as the outing policy currently encourages. At Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 134#Proposal for a confidential COI mailing list, the community reacted quite negatively to having any sort of off-site investigation (and not just to the specific proposal, but to any kind of non-transparent investigating). I don't know how we reconcile all of that, but there needs to be a clear and unambiguous policy about what can and cannot be posted onsite, and discussed privately. The current outing policy is spectacularly unclear, at least to good-faith editors, even if functionaries think that it is obvious. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:52, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Opabinia regalis, raising notability is a start, but will do nothing in places where it really counts - big pages that Tryptofish describes below. My worries are exactly like Tryptofish's - one could game the system easily. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:16, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for that! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:26, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Tryptofish I think we reconcile things as follows. I think everyone (or the vast majority) here would agree there has to be some confidential place/forum/etc. for concerns to be discussed. Once there is consensus that this is a necessity, several options are then discussed and presented for voting. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:20, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to say here. The Village Pump discussion to which I linked just above seems to me to indicate that there may not yet really be the consensus to which you refer. And before anyone initiates an RfC about options, there is going to have to be a lot of community discussion before any viable options can even be described with the precision needed for a useful RfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:26, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm, I dunno. I think some folks who would have opposed that specifically would understand there is at times a need to discuss concerns privately. Also, that didn't really gain very wide input. As things stand now, I don't think the projected workload outweighs the abilities of checkusers, arbs and functionaries to deal with things (though obviously things might change!) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:38, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, that RfC was pretty widely advertised, and I would expect that the editors who commented there would also be within the larger population of a larger RfC. What struck me was the extent to which editors who opposed the proposal also specifically pointed out that they would oppose any off-wiki investigation by individual admins, arbs, or functionaries, on the grounds that no one should be blocked without transparency, and there would be too much risk of individual functionaries using it for personally motivated blocks. Not my own opinion, but an opinion that was pretty widespread. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Trypto, I've been meaning to respond to this but have been busy IRL for the last week and am just catching up. I think it's worth everyone taking two or three or ten steps back and getting a good look at this issue from a broader perspective, because it is really strange (and after a few days of paying no attention whatsoever to wikipolitics, let me tell you, really strange) that so much of the conversation around the topic of managing paid editing is hyperfocused specifically on this narrow issue of "I think I found a paid editor, so when can I out him?" Seriously, it is weird that the talk page about the policy on harassment has hosted so much of this discussion.

On the one hand, I think you're on the right track in trying to work out a minimalist view of what would be needed to support a hypothesis of paid editing. On the other hand, I think that waaaay before anyone starts trying to define what the minimum amount of information to post might be (or just how sure you have to be that you're right before you post it, or whether we should create a set of uberfunctionaries to receive this information, etc etc etc), we need to first work out the details of what the actual problem is and what approaches would work best to minimize it. Most of this conversation - and in that I include the WMF statement - is proceeding from the unstated and unsupported assumption that it is productive to identify a suspected paid editor, search for their personal information, and either post it on-wiki or share it with editors in private who will review and make judgments specifically about this off-wiki research. None of that actually seems to come with a justification for why this is a good way to manage a problem that a) involves a lot of socking anyway, and b) mostly generates content that is unwanted on its own merits. That's one reason why I emphasized an approach based on actual evaluation of the content: since most of it is bad to begin with, getting rid of it on the grounds that it's bad is much quicker and completely obviates the need for risky, time-consuming, and error-prone off-site investigations. There is just no compelling reason to go down this road outside of circumstances at least as extraordinary as those that prompt release of data protected by the privacy policy. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:00, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Oh, no need at all to be sorry! I do think that you raise many very good points here. I've been pretty immersed in these discussions over the last several days, and I can observe that a lot of us are thinking hard about minimizing the amount of information that needs to be revealed, in not harming a user who was incorrectly accused, and in differentiating between someone who just wants to publicize something small that they are close to, and who doesn't yet fully understand policy, versus someone coming from a website that is set up to engage in deliberate policy violation on a large scale. And I'm not seeing anyone who really is saying "when can I out him?" But it's worth considering that there can be a need for explaining to a putative undisclosed paid editor why we are reverting or blocking them, to provide concrete evidence. And very importantly, I think that you are mistaken in thinking that simply enforcing existing policies and tightening notability guidelines will control the problem without discussing motivations. I said somewhere else that generals tend to fight the last war, and here, we should not underestimate what is coming our way in the era of "alternative facts". I wrote Break 3, just below, for exactly that reason. And I think I described a very plausible situation in which our existing policies and guidelines simply will not be able to keep up with the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Break 3

I've been paying close attention to the scenarios that other editors have been describing, about the really awful kinds of harassment that occur, really I have. And I don't mean to diminish any of that with what I'm now going to say. But I think that it is important to consider the impact on editors from the other side of the issue.

We all know about such undisclosed paid editing examples as someone promoting a small business or a garage band, with relatively rare outbreaks of massive problems with multiple sockpuppets. But I'm convinced that it will be just a matter of time until we look back on all that as "the good old days". Not only do large corporations have increasingly sophisticated PR departments, but we are entering an age of fake news motivated by political agendas, and even Russian hackers. As Wikipedia becomes more and more noticeable as the top Google hit, and as where "anyone can edit", we will become more and more of a tempting target for deep-pocketed interests who will put effort into figuring out how to game the system. And it won't simply be matters of new pages where we can try to apply stricter notability guidelines.

Let's say a moneyed interest that is hostile to climate science decides to use us for their purposes. They hire a few people to set up a very large number of socks. Each sock goes to one of our geographic pages, and they merely make a small change in the numerical value of the average temperature, to lower that number by a few degrees. Do that enough, and there's a little less evidence for climate change. And they play the system. Let's say I look at one of these edits and decide to revert it as unsourced. A different sock turns up and reverts me. Rinse and repeat. Do I keep reverting and end up violating 3RR? Then I start to notice a few other geographical pages where the same thing is happening, but with different sock accounts at every page, no overlaps. It dawns on me that this might be an organized effort and not just a few random number-changing vandals. So I go to a talk page or noticeboard, and point out these edits and express my concern so that other editors will also look into it, and maybe get some page protection. But the paid editors are a step ahead of me. They create some Joe job external web pages where they post something about the fact that they actually are doing these edits, except in a way that is innocuous, along with a lot of personal information that doesn't really need to be there, and then they create other pages about embarrassing personal information about the same "real names" that the first group of pages contain. And they send an email to ArbCom complaining that Tryptofish is outing them by saying that they might be paid editors, which they deny, and they are very upset that the suspicions I posted will lead others to track down the embarrassing information about them and dox them. So ArbCom blocks me, until we can all figure out what is really going on. It could credibly happen. Same thing for efforts to make crime information on pages about US cities just a little more prominent, to advance the "American carnage" agenda of a US political faction. Or efforts to make our medical pages treat sugar as just a little more nutritious. It could quickly grow to a scale that good-faith editors will find overwhelming (after all, there is already some overwhelming from large class student projects: multiply that by a big number). Pleasant dreams, y'all!

So we need to have clearly established ways for editors to make good-faith accusations of ToU violations without violating the outing policy (and of course also without opening the door to outing editors who may be wrongly accused of paid editing). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

We already have cases of dictators from third world countries paying people to alter their Wikipedia profiles to help them continue to suppress their populations. That was a particularly unpleasant paid editor who complained vigorously when after he outed himself it was used against him.

Yup one concern is that these companies will begin adding bunches of "personal information" to their outside pages to protect themselves from being disclosed on Wikipedia. Of course all the personal information will be made up / borrowed from someone else. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:49, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks User:Tryptofish, now my pov editing nightmares will get even worse. In fact I'd argue that pov editing may be a bigger threat to Wikipedia, maybe even now, then paid editing. Doug Weller talk 08:49, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Doug – that's what I'm here for! I think that the boundary between POV and paid will become increasingly blurred in the future. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:23, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I do not see as many large sock cases with POV editors as I see with paid editors. POV editors typically edit one main topic so easier to address / keep an eye on. Paid editors edit what every topics people pay them to. Often obscure stuff that is poorly watched because it is of questionable notability to begin with. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:27, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Tryptofish's nightmare scenario has already happened. First, see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology in 2009. Second, among the politicians who would use us are not just third world dictators, as in the Kazakh Wikipedia, but staff members of US Congressmen,see WP:Congressional staffer edits. DGG ( talk ) 19:00, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, DGG. I've been listening to news about "alternative facts" and the press being the enemy of the people here in the US (not to mention the size of the inaugural crowd), and I think that I really do see a storm heading Wikipedia's way. There's a cliché that generals fight the previous war, and I see a danger in thinking about these hazards in terms of the past history of doxing (which of course is not to say that privacy does not matter). --Tryptofish (talk) 23:57, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

The number of ways content can be gamed are numerous - using undue weight for starters - sock 1 removes sourced negative material and says article is unbalanced. edit war continues. RfC is held and socks 2,3 and 4 uphold view that inclusion of said material is problematic for whatever reason. Can also argue that many newspaper sources are reliable or unreliable, depending on scenario. Ditto blogs. etc. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:18, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Required reading: Please see Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest#And now in other news . . .. The scenario I described here is starting to happen, and the outside world is taking notice. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:05, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Page move outing?

Odd case, but I'm curious as to where we sit. Let's say that User123 creates an article on John Smith that reads just like an autobiography. Someone decides that it is, (and is probably correct), but rather than send the John Smith article to AFD, moves it to User123's user page (not a draft in their sandbox). Now visiting User:User123 shows the biography of John Smith, as if they had created it there. Should this be regarded as outing? If so, what is the correct response? Move the article back, leaving the original move and reason in the move log? Just delete it? Or let it be, if on the grounds that it was extremely likely that it was an autobiography after all. And do things change if the user was User:jsmith or even User:johnsmith123? - Bilby (talk) 23:28, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Interesting question. (I'm tempted to reply that it is outing if the first administrator to see it thinks it's outing, and it isn't if the first admin thinks that it isn't. Welcome to the wonderful world of "case-by-case".) But seriously (and just one fish's opinion, not the final word), I think it's relevant that it can't be outing if the user voluntarily posts it here and does not redact it. And there's certainly a well-established practice of putting a "connected contributor" tag on article talk pages. So if the username is nothing like John Smith, it's just a userified page, and that does not really imply that it's about oneself. And if the username is johnsmith123, then the user has voluntarily written a page with information about John Smith and voluntarily called themselves john smith. The one caution I would make is that the editor moving the page into userspace, or doing anything else with it, should be cautious about asserting that it is autobiographical. It's often sufficient to take such action without saying it out loud. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:46, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I think you are probably correct if their username matches the biography they are writing - it is probably best to regard that as a form of self-outing, and not worry too much, although there may be other issues as you say. With the User123 case, my concern isn't with userfication, but making the biography into their user page. If it was moved to User:User123/John_Smith then I'm ok with it, as I agree that that isn't making a statement that the person is John Smith (ignoring move log comments). The one I'm more concerned with is moving John Smith to User:User123, making the claim that the person is John Smith, rather than that they have been working on an article about John Smith. - Bilby (talk) 01:36, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Oh, that's different, if the move is to the user page itself (I should have realized that you said that). That would seem to me to be a seriously inappropriate thing to do. Whether it's really outing is questionable, but it would also raise BLP issues, maybe even a sort of NPA, and it's probably never appropriate to equate an article page with a user page. I would probably move the page back into article space and then PROD or AfD it if appropriate. I'm not sure whether the edits would qualify for oversight, but hopefully someone who knows is watching and will answer that. But putting it on a user page, even if the user name suggests that it's the same person, strikes me as a very weird thing to do. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:39, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'll act on that basis, return the pages, and look to prod them. That sounds like a good approach. - Bilby (talk) 22:09, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

• Maybe outing. Not harassment, not a violation, and not sanctionable. If you genuinely believe someone outed themselves, then asking them about it has to be taken as a good faith action. And moving the page might as well be asking them about it. It would be one thing if you moved their userpage into the mainspace and added real names, but the action described clearly is not covered under this policy. Theoretically, under some circumstances, it may be a clear bad faith action, and those should be reported on ANI, but as described it is not harassment, and so should not be covered in the harassment policy page. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:22, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
• FWIW, I agree with Trypto that moving a page to someone's userpage without asking them about it is a weird thing to do and if I saw it I'd probably first guess that someone made a mistake trying to userfy the page. I wouldn't call it outing - or at least not so obviously so that it would be covered here - but it's definitely not appropriate as a regular practice. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:33, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

OR, would you consider the move to be a candidate for oversight if there had been no obvious connection between the biography and the username? I'm asking because I don't know, and it was a possible consequence of Bilby's question. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Depends on the context and content, IMO - I'd be more inclined to do it (and give them a lecture on WP:AUTOBIO) if the subject themselves asked for oversight, or if it was somehow obvious from their other behavior that the page-mover was aiming to harass rather than clumsily help the author. We do sometimes get "oops, I didn't realize that was public" type requests from new editors. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:15, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I would just assume the person who did the move made a mistake and move the text to either the talk page or the sandbox of the account in question. I know I have posted on the user page by mistake when I meant to post on the talk page.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:37, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

In this case I think a mistake was unlikely. I also don't think it was deliberate harassment - just an incorrect idea that moving mainspace bios to a user's home page instead of to a sandbox would be helpful. - Bilby (talk) 03:41, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Should be a simple mater of bringing it to the users attention with recommendations of a preferred practice. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:01, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps not in this case. But that's alright - it should be easy enough to handle politely. - Bilby (talk) 01:07, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I have no place here, but reading through the first half is worrying. Whatever you all do, don't undermine harassment and its psychological - social cost on people. Recently I read someone asking an other to take tea and vehemently saying they themselves are on a high sugar consumption from related stress. As an ip editor, I know the implications from watering down of policies from its title. If outing is going to be a sanctioned practice, it doesn't take much effort for user's to find reasons for doing it and for doing it better. For paid editing and subsequent problems we already have good counter measures - trim the content if promotional, check whether it satisfies core policies, if continual problems exist in proving point - deal as such (block and ban), if the issue is serious - move the topic for some sort of panel assessment, above all move on to other articles. It is also logically faulty to think everything can be controlled. If anything anti-harassment policy should be strengthened to current evidences, supportive towards structural victims and usage of such policies should be given space for acknowledgement and response (even reviewing the current state of the policy, there are usages of tongue in cheek language which leads to equivocality), guideline's should be there for better interpersonal skills. - All these are from a laymen's view, but very important individually at this moment.117.241.55.2 (talk) 05:10, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee response to the Wikimedia Foundation statement on paid editing and outing

The Arbitration Committee has just published a response to the WMF statement at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Response to the Wikimedia Foundation statement on paid editing and outing. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:48, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Have started the RfC - listed at Wikipedia_talk:Conflict_of_interest#Investigating_COI_policy. Vote away.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:19, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

As part of this wide-ranging discussion, I've posted Wikipedia_talk:Conflict_of_interest#Concrete_proposal_1 which reads

Concrete proposal 1

The following shall be inserted at the end of Wikipedia:Harassment#Posting of personal_information

"There are job posting sites where employers publicly post advertisements to recruit paid Wikipedia editors. Linking to such an ad in a forum such as WP:Conflict of interest noticeboard is not a violation of this policy."

Let's keep the !voting and discussion there as part of the overall discussion.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:26, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

ToU - create "protected" vs "unprotected" classifications of "personal information" when we finish related discussions?

One thread of discussion that I would like to pull out, is the following - the ToU obligates people editing for pay, to disclose "employer, client, and affiliation". It's been said in a few places, that paid editors do not have the right not to disclose this information. (Just like no one has the right to persistently ignore the other policies and guidelines - editing here is a privilege that comes with obligations).

That is a fact - paid editors do not have the right, to not disclose this information.

There are different things that can follow from this with respect to other editors here.

1. One can say: "Yes paid editors must disclose, and if they don't disclose we can ban or block them. Nothing here gives a third party the right to disclose this information on a paid editor's behalf."
2. Another reading is, "Yes because this information must be disclosed, it should not be protected under OUTING - other editors should be able to post this information"
3. Another reading is: "Yes because this information must be disclosed, it cannot be protected under OUTING - other editors must be able to post this information"

I am uninterested in the difference between 2 and 3 and I hope people don't get into the weeds of that. The stark difference will be between those who follow the line in #1 and those who follow the lines in #2 or #3.

So is it worthwhile, then, to define two classes of "personal information"?

The first paragraph of the OUTING section states:

Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person has voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia. Personal information includes legal name, date of birth, identification numbers, home or workplace address, job title and work organisation, telephone number, email address, other contact information, or photograph, whether such information is accurate or not. Posting such information about another editor is an unjustifiable and uninvited invasion of privacy and may place that editor at risk of harm outside their activities on Wikipedia. This applies to the personal information of both editors and non-editors.

What about (after we finish related discussions) adding to the end of that:

However, as described in the Terms of Use, editors who receive consideration for editing Wikipedia are obligated to disclose their employer, client, and affiliation, for each edit they make for consideration. Those three pieces of information are therefore not protected under this policy and it is not the community's concern if other personal information can be determined based on any or all of those three pieces of unprotected information. However all other personal information remains protected by this policy and cannot be posted in Wikipedia; posting other personal information is harassment.

Please note that separate discussions would be needed about :

• a) whether off-wiki sources can be used at all, to determine the employer, client, and affiliation of a suspected, or even already-blocked, undisclosed paid editor;
• b) what would count as evidence (kind of an WP:RS guideline) both with regard to on-wiki diffs and off-wiki sites
• c) what process would be used; and
• d) who would have the right to post unprotected information once the process was complete.

Those are separate and important questions. Am just trying to see if -- if we are able to agree on a), b), c), and d) -- folks can agree to this classification. Trying to build stepping stones toward consensus. Jytdog (talk) 22:46, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

IMO some degree of transparency is essential. Editors deserve the right to defend themselves and the community should see a degree of due diligence taking place. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:32, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

While Paid editors are required to disclose, what happens to people who are incorrectly labeled as paid editors? The exception being applied in cases 2 and 3 rely on the "paid editor" being a paid editor. Does it become a violation of outing if this label is applied incorrectly? --Kyohyi (talk) 14:58, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

The reason we shouldn't put this in place until after the discussions in a) through d) have been done, is to make sure we get it right. If the account cannot be connected with reasonable certainty to "employer, client, affiliation" then it would not be posted. Am just seeking here to get agreement that the information required to be disclosed should be considered a different class of "personal information" and - pending discussion about how to implement, should be exempt from OUTING. No desire to implement this until related discussions are done. Getting agreement on this will help make the other discussions easier as it clarifies what is under discussion (e.g. posting someone's address or RW name is not what anybody is thinking about) Jytdog (talk) 17:49, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Obviously, the devil will be in the details, but broadly speaking I am strongly in favor of this kind of approach. I do, however, agree that the issue brought up by Kyohyi is important. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:57, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Risks/benefits of posting employer/client/affiliation?

As User:Opabinia regalis noted here and others have noted elsewhere, a discussion about the potential risks and benefits of allowing editors to post "company/client/affiliation" on behalf of paid editors would be useful.

Setting this up to get that rolling, with various categories to help keep things clear, based on what various folks have already said on this issue here and elsewhere.

This is all with respect to allowing posting of employer/client/affiliation on behalf of undisclosed paid editors (UPE) and is all about potential risks and benefits. If we actually do this, unexpected harms and benefits could emerge that nobody anticipated.

Above comments and following sub-headings added by User:Jytdog — Iadmc♫^talk  21:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Risks to confirmed UPE

• Loss of reputation for future engagements, possible loss of income Brianhe (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Risks to suspected UPE

• might be used as bludgeon to win content disputes; editors unfortunately "cry COI" too often in content disputes. Jytdog (talk) 17:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• if identification of employer or affiliation is accurate and there was no unpaid editing, editor has been OUTED with no benefit to anyone and only harm to the editor Jytdog (talk) 17:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• "Suspected" should not be included, only confirmed undisclosed paid editors should be named: risk of error and therefore legal action and defamation if unconfirmed — Iadmc♫^talk  21:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• Per Opabinia regalis, below, the risks to real human beings of having their personal information made public are massive and very real. Let's never lose sight of that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Risks to editors who post

• there is apparently legal risk here, per statements by sitting or former arbitrators like this and this, the latter further elaborated here. Jytdog (talk) 17:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• If done incorrectly risk of block for OUTING Jytdog (talk) 17:17, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• Risk of error and therefore legal action and defamation if status of outed party is unconfirmed — Iadmc♫^talk  21:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Risks to people, institutions, etc not named above

• mis-identifying employer/client/affiliation harms the reputation of the misidentified entity Jytdog (talk) 17:21, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Benefits to readers

• See the scenario I posted in #Break 3, just above. Readers want useful information, not deviously disguised promotion. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:55, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Benefits to confirmed UPE

• Decreases the unethical competition Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:05, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Benefits to suspected UPE

• Can provide an answer to "why did you revert/block me?" Editors who have been sanctioned want to see evidence. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• If done correctly and sensitively, it can provide an opportunity for a falsely suspected editor to be able to set the record straight. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Benefits to other editors

• allows other editors to see disclosure that should have been there from the beginning, so that edits can be evaluated in light of the COI. Same reason that COI disclosures are required in academic publishing. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• allows editors concerned with undisclosed paid editing over time, to see patterns of company activity and identify articles that are especially subject to COI editing, to better maintain article quality there. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• If the outed party is correctly identified, we have a good idea who not to trust — Iadmc♫^talk  21:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Benefits to other Wikimedia projects

• If any Wikimedia project loses the perception that we provide useful information, that instead of having gone back to the early Pokemon days, we have become an outlet for "alternative facts", our legitimacy will be lost, and Wikimedia will go the way of daisy-wheel printers, to be replaced by something else. No, I am not exaggerating. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Benefits to people, institutions, etc not named above

• provides groundwork on which WMF Legal might then choose to take direct action with regard to paid editing companies Jytdog (talk) 17:16, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• if list is made and is reasonably public, would allow people/entities who want to hire paid editors to see companies with a history of UPE. Could come to function like a Beall's list of Predatory open access publishing (a word of caution, Beall discontinued his list, apparently due to legal troubles or other harassment but the reason he discontinued it is not clear. ) Jytdog (talk) 17:32, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• Shows how to properly edit and what and who to avoid — Iadmc♫^talk  21:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

General discussion

• This is a fascinating list, but more for what it doesn't include than what it does. You've started a list of the "risks" of posting others' personal information without their consent, and didn't include a heading for the risk to the editor whose personal information is exposed. It's pretty clear the thinking here began with risks to the people already inside the Wikipedian "empathy circle" - mostly the editors who want to be permitted to post this stuff - and therefore has overlooked the most serious risks, which are the possibility of harming someone who's done nothing more than ignore a terms-of-use document on a website (a behavior that is ubiquitous online), and the possibility that you might be wrong and irreversibly expose some entirely innocent editor's personal information. These are much more serious risks than someone getting temporarily blocked while a problem is investigated and resolved. Maybe this is a consequence of my real-life work, but I spend a ton of my time being wrong about stuff. It is part of the nature of research to develop a model that seems to fit the available data well and then discover some new information that reveals a flaw. I am very accustomed to assuming I might be wrong about things, even when I feel subjectively confident in the evidence. Unfortunately I don't see that kind of mental habit reflected in most of the conversations surrounding the "outing" of paid editors.

  Importantly, I want to amplify what I mentioned above in my previous post on this page. It is really weird that so much of the conversation about managing paid editing is taking place on the talk page of the harassment policy and is focused on this one specific, controversial, and time-consuming means of approaching the problem. Personally, I'll be much more inclined to believe the arguments that this is somehow necessary if I start seeing the people who claim they need to be posting personal information instead investing serious effort in developing other approaches to the problem that are more consistent with our usual working practices. And by that I mean the traditional methods of "comment on the content, not the contributor". Notability standards, new-article quality control, sourcing. See where the WMF stands on adapting ORES to spammy edits as well as vandalism. Consider amending deletion processes to facilitate the removal of promotional articles. If necessary, people can then present evidence of specific sets of circumstances in which those more conservative preferred approaches are not sufficient. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:43, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Wouldn't "the editor whose personal information is exposed" be included in the "Risks to confirmed UPE" and "Risks to suspected UPE" groups (even if innocent)? Mojoworker (talk) 21:05, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Not to totally speak on Opabinia's behalf, but I think she's talking about the framing. Calling them UPE and not Editors puts them out of the empathy circle. --Kyohyi (talk) 21:08, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Does that mean Admins are in the empathy inner circle? Mojoworker (talk) 21:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Rarely... — Iadmc♫^talk  21:35, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

If - and it is a huge if - you want to read Opabina as being rhetorical in writing that there is no consideration to the editor whose information is exposed, that kind of rhetoric is unacceptable to me for a sitting arb in a highly charged discussion. I would like to think that Opabina simply read too quickly before they posted. Jytdog (talk) 21:32, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

User:Opabinia regalis please redact your misrepresentation of what I wrote. I provided two sections for risks to editors whose information would be posted (and in one case I am not even sure the community would ever arrive at consensus to post if it was only suspected). Two. Not zero. Jytdog (talk) 21:27, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Kyohyi is correct. I'm objecting to both the framing and the consequences of that framing, namely that "the person whose personal information is exposed" is not necessarily the same as "the suspected/confirmed paid editor". That's why I posted in the "general comments" section rather than just adding to the headings or lists of risks. There are many other possible risks to the owner of the personal information that aren't accounted for in the construction of the discussion - for example, it may be that information belonging to the wrong Joe Bloggs gets posted, or that the investigator falls for a joe job and posts accurate information about an editor's identity based on inaccurate beliefs about their activities, or that posting information about Joe also reveals information about Jane, or.... etc. Opabinia regalis (talk) 21:34, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps she meant it wasn't inclusive enough? Not sure, though — Iadmc♫^talk  21:35, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

User:Opabinia regalis The cases you mention about making a mistake or falling for a joejob fall squarely under "suspected UPE". And again, this is about posting, with regard to a specific user account that is a suspected or confirmed of UPE, the "employer, client or affiliation". There are only four "fields" under discussion, 1) account username; 2) the three pieces of information named in the ToU - employer/client/affiliation. There is not one section for suspected/confirmed - there are separate sections for suspected and confirmed, and I did it that way exactly to deal with the kinds of things you mention. At this point you appear to be almost willfully trying to distort the discussion and I ask you to a) stop doing that, and b) redact your misrepresentation. Jytdog (talk) 21:47, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

This is a real question, not a rhetorical one: do you really not see that "the person whose personal information is exposed" - the person, the real-life human being - is a different class being asked to bear different risks than "the suspected UPE", the (IMO rather dismissive) term you chose to refer to the Wikipedia identity you suspect of editing for pay? The difference lies in the possibility that something went awry in your "investigation".

In principle, doing a risk analysis on this problem is a good idea. In practice, I think it's unlikely to produce any clear conclusions, for a number of reasons. The simplest is the issue in the preceding paragraph, the need to correctly identify all of the stakeholders and their associated risks. More subtle is the problem of framing: how we (readers of and participants in this discussion) evaluate these risks largely depends on the extent to which we identify with the hypothetical members of each group. This is what I'm getting at with the "empathy circle" comment - the discussion is framed so that readers of it empathize with the hypothetical editors who might get blocked for posting their concerns, but not with the hypothetical real-life person who found themselves in unpleasant personal circumstances, took on some crappy online freelance work, and now has that decision publicly associated with their real name on a major website. I'm not saying you're deliberately constructing it that way; it's just the expected consequence of a discussion framework written by someone with a known strong opinion on one side of a divided issue. The broadest reason this type of risk analysis is unlikely to be beneficial is simply that it's incomplete: as I mentioned above, there is a very noticeable trend in discussions of "paid editing" to focus narrowly on the perceived value of posting allegedly paid editors' personal information, to the exclusion of managing paid-for content using other community mechanisms. A risk analysis that doesn't compare the risks and benefits of such posts with the risks and benefits of other approaches is insufficient as a basis for drawing any conclusions about how the community can best manage paid editing. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Jytdog, you are surely a grown-up dog, and you don't really need to have anything redacted. Opabinia, no it's not weird to discuss the issue here (and does it really surprise you to see something weird around here anyway?), because the outing policy is the policy that will be used against any editor who makes a mistake in how they try to deal with undisclosed paid editing. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Trypto and Opabina. The misrepresentation is very serious to me. I am very disturbed by the utter lack of good faith, and the assumption of stupidity and thoughtlessness on my part in what Opabina is writing here. The assumptions make actual dialogue impossible. I am not writing this lightly. Jytdog (talk) 23:32, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Nobody is intentionally misrepresenting anything. You two disagree. Whether you dialog or not is up to you. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:52, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Does anybody ever intentionally misrepresent things? It doesn't matter why. It is a blatant misrepresentation that what I wrote above ignores the risks of OUTING to people suspected of UPE who aren't doing that or leaves no space for discussion of that. It is right here for pete's sake. User:Tryptofish how does your point here differ from that in any significant way, reading mine with even a modicum of good faith? Jytdog (talk) 00:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I read yours entirely in good faith, and it never occurred to me otherwise. The difference is in the framing. Peace. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Trypto, that's exactly the problem I'm trying to push back on. You can make lots of mistakes in trying to deal with paid editing - say, by not making a good case for deletion when you take a fluff-filled article to AfD. The only way this policy is relevant is if you want to post the personal information of someone you believe to be editing for pay. That should be a very small part of the broader activity of "dealing with paid editing", relevant only in the most extreme situations, yet the discussion is disproportionately dominated by that topic.

Jytdog, I didn't say you are stupid or thoughtless. I said that I disagree with what appear to be the underlying assumptions motivating this discussion, and I wish you would reconsider those assumptions in more depth. I think the people advocating management of paid editing in part by loosening the outing policy are underestimating the risk of error and making assumptions about the likely failure modes that are inconsistent with my experience dealing with harassment and outing victims. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I think you're stupid or thoughtless or acting in bad faith. Like I said, I'm wrong all the time, so I may well be wrong now - but calling my thoughts on the subject "misrepresentation" doesn't convince me I am. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Only a small part of dealing with undisclosed paid editing involves the use of off Wikipedia material. Most has and always will entirely involve on WP evidence. What we are doing now; however, is not enough when we are dealing with companies that primarily do undisclosed paid editing. There are a number of organizations out there, that number is growing, and we have been failing to adapt to the changing times. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:57, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

I should clarify that when I referred to an editor making a mistake, I was thinking more specifically about an editor who posts something that might seem to you to be personal information and seem to me to simply be an advertisement for paid editing. I think that editors who are trying hard to act in good faith can get in trouble over the current version of the outing policy because the policy is unclear in so many ways, and it may be another kind of mistake to sanction such an editor. For that matter, "case-by-case" strikes me as a colossal mistake. So obviously there are indeed many different kinds of mistakes. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:44, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

And I will add that Opabina's repetition of the claim that "there are other ways - go work on them" expresses a lack of awareness of the hours and hours of work that people put in all the time - the ongoing efforts -- to address paid editing/COI issues, operating very much within the limits of OUTING, and gives no room for them to even begin to understand why there has been this continual effort to come up with better ways to navigate the tension between the values of integrity and privacy, much less a space from which to productively contribute to the discussion instead of trying to derail it and shut it down. It leaves no where to go. Jytdog (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

While I have no doubt that people focused on COI issues work hard, I mentioned the "comment on content, not contributors" maxim because I was specifically referring to approaches that focus on content, not COI investigations. The issue I am interested in is the implicit premise that evaluating bad content on its (lack of) merits is inadequate to solve the part of the "paid editing problem" that matters to our readers: the part where we get bad (misleading, promotional, poorly sourced, etc.) content as a result.

And as long as we're talking about "framing", I reject the framing of an "integrity vs privacy" dichotomy. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

User:Opabinia regalis I realized I did not directly reply to the following: } This is a real question, not a rhetorical one: do you really not see that "the person whose personal information is exposed" - the person, the real-life human being - is a different class being asked to bear different risks than "the suspected UPE", the (IMO rather dismissive) term you chose to refer to the Wikipedia identity you suspect of editing for pay? The difference lies in the possibility that something went awry in your "investigation". Of course I am aware that every person operating a user account is a real person. My entire approach to dealing with COI (when I could do that, before my TBAN) was dialogue-based and the mistake I made that got my blocked was a departure from that. What I am trying to communicate to you is the following - your responses to my posting have been based entirely on your assumption that I don't respect other editors and their privacy. Your question is the exact same as "Does your mother know you beat your wife?" The only answer is: I don't beat my wife. And of course I take everyone's privacy seriously. Why do you assume I don't? And why is the effort to even discuss this so threatening that you keep trying to shut it down? Those are real questions back to you - and they are real questions from me to you. Jytdog (talk) 02:36, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. However, you're wrong about what assumptions I may be making. You argued that the category I said was omitted had in fact been included. I disagree, and asked whether you saw the distinction I was drawing. As for shutting down discussion, why would you assume that was my intention, instead of the simpler hypothesis that I just disagree with you? Considering this exact subject is currently being discussed on at least three separate pages, whoever is trying to shut down discussion is apparently doing a piss-poor job of it anyway ;) Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• Let's try to actually discuss the objection to the section header "suspected UPE editors". In the discussion about amending OUTING to deal with UPE, we need some way to talk about useraccounts that people begin investigating in good faith, to make sure folks commenting are clear that this is not something that applies to just anybody. This is also written with the assumption there wlll be an actual process in place to authorize posting "employer/client/affiliation" (I cannot imagine there is a chance of consensus without that) for user accounts of suspected or confirmed undisclosed paid editors (who are, yes, people). Keeping all that in mind, User:Opabinia regalis what would you prefer that we call this subsection so that we can actually talk about it? Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
  • My point is more subtle than "we should change the section header", or I would've just said that ;) What I am encouraging you to do is question the assumptions that led to your original choice of wording and structure. Changing the wording doesn't change the assumptions. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
    • Tryptofish has "framed" this is in difficult way, as a "disagreement". This is not a disagreement about where to go with policy, this is a disagreement about what is going on in my mind. That is not a "disagreement" in any sense we use that word in WP. You have declared me incompetent to participate this discussion - too caught up in fervor about COI matters to be trusted to think and write clearly about OUTING and needing to have what I write here deconstructed, the conversation about the issues stopped dead in their tracks, and the flaws in the place I am coming from unpacked, as it is just "fascinating" to see a warped mind at work. And Opabina, you actually stand by this behavior and defend it as appropriate, anywhere in WP. I cannot wrap my head around that. Jytdog (talk) 16:25, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

All I mean by "disagreement" is that OR takes a very strict position on "content not editor", whereas you are (correctly, I believe) pointing out that it isn't as simple as that – and that you consider OR's language to be a personal attack on you, whereas she (correctly, I believe) is trying to explain that The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I think you're stupid or thoughtless or acting in bad faith. My hope is that the discussion will turn away from editor motivations, which is very much of a distraction, and towards finding a consensus about what does or does not need to be posted about undisclosed paid editing accusations. And as for "framing", I can try to explain what I mean by going back to your earlier comment about my edit at #Risks to suspected UPE. I did not mean it as a criticism of what you had previously put there, and I do recognize that there is some redundancy between what we each said. But I gave it a different framing, in the sense of a difference in affect. You referred to no benefit to anyone and only harm to the editor. Quite correct, and said in a businesslike way, and nothing wrong with that. I, on the other hand, put an emphasis on the more emotional aspects of that harm, which I think is useful in drawing attention to something that will be important for editors to pay close attention to as these discussions continue, and also in demonstrating to editors who feel as OR does, that we understand their concerns. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:44, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Why is this discussion happening here

User:Opabinia regalis you have mentioned a couple of times that you don't understand why this discussion is happening here.

There is actual and obvious tension between the spirit and letter of the ToU and COI guideline and their intention to protect the integrity of WP content, and the spirit and letter of OUTING, with its aim of protecting privacy of editors.

It takes clear thinking to understand that tension and grapple with it. Which is not always available. Jimmy Wales, on the one hand writes op-eds in the NYT like this about the absolute value of privacy in WP ("Privacy is an essential right."), thinking with only his "privacy" cap on, but then turns arounds and writes things like this: My own view is that our policy on WP:OUTING is not well written, and prevents open discussion of the problems. In too many cases, speculating that an editor is a paid advocate is a mild example of failing to assume good faith (a real concern, of course) whereas proving it could be treated as a case of outing. That's not good policy. thinking with his "paid editing" hat on.

This kind of hand-wavy approach is actually destructive (and yes I am speaking to you Opabina) because there is a lot at stake for editors who choose to spend their volunteer time addressing integrity issues, and the tension is not easy to manage.

The biggest risk that people who choose to spend their volunteer time working on these issues run, is getting indefinitely blocked under this policy. That is a huge deal. User:Doc James wrote this recently: In fact the severe interpretations that some take of the "outing policies" make me feel less safe rather than more safe, as they protect those who harass others. - that was with regard to what he went through with the people from Medtronic and trying to have action taken against them here in WP, and his own worry that his work addressing integrity issues might end up getting him blocked, if he does something that someone with the power to block perceives as a violation of OUTING.

I, of course, ran afoul of this and was indefinitely blocked for it. That block was due to a mistake i made that I shouldn't have made, and was justified, but it resulted in a chilling of other people addressing COI/paid editing efforts at all, as several editors have emailed to me. (which is again, my fault for making the mistake) My fault.

Discussion of this policy is where things need to be worked out with regard to the community navigating the tension between preserving integrity and preserving privacy, and deciding how to calibrate things. It would not be appropriate to have it elsewhere.

And about other ways - purely en-WP ways - to address integrity issues in WP. That work is happening all around you at COIN, in AfD discussions where promotional pressure is increasingly being raised as a reason to delete marginal articles, and new page patrol. These issues are being raised here for good reason - namely to reduce the risk for those who address these issues, and provide more information about the paid editing that goes on. Everybody understands that risks are involved in trying to selectively adjust the OUTING policy. Nobody, including me, takes them lightly. Jytdog (talk) 23:06, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

and I'll add that I am not confident the community will ever reach consensus on amending OUTING. It might not. But the consistent efforts to dismiss and shut down the discussion from happening at all are getting in the way of even trying. Which is part of why we might not reach consensus. Jytdog (talk) 00:14, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

With respect to the comments by User:Jimbo Wales, the ones about privacy occured in 2015 while the ones about the effects our privacy policies on making addressing UPE more difficult were in 2017. This might simply reflect a further development of his position as we all become more aware of the seriousness of the current situation. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:02, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

nope, he has been saying the vague "OUTING is flawed" thing for a while. 2013 example: diff. I don't want to litigate that either. My point was just that it is very hard to figure out how to actually amend OUTING in a way that deeply respects privacy while improving our ability to maintain the integrity of WP, and it is hard to even discuss because privacy is such a deeply held value and the conversation gets distorted very quickly with wild allegations. Jytdog (talk) 02:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I disagree User:Jytdog with you position regarding your block. You were blocked on June 27th 2016 until August 8th, 2016 (5 weeks). The blocked remained long after you acknowledge the "mistake" and agreed not to do it again. You were required to go through a bunch of hoops to get unblocked. And the block was for providing evidence that an account that was editing in a promotional manner and being disruptive, was in the marketing department of the company they were writing about. Yes yes, it was so obvious that the evidence was not really needed.

In other cases; however, you can compare a fellow editing who works under their real name to Hitler's physician, "Josef Mengele" and nothing happens besides some minor scolding. IMO the use of the harassment policy has unfortunately moved away from decreasing harassment to protecting paid editors. The interpretations of some are resulting in more harm than benefit not only to our editors but to our readers. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I really, really don't want to relitigate my block and hope the discussion doesn't go there. Jytdog (talk) 01:53, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

These discussion seem to have gone lengthy and unstable. I don't see information regarding how does one in a non-invasive manner get to an understanding that a user is a paid editor. I hope it isn't through a snowballing of assumptions. Can someone provide some information on the process.59.96.162.139 (talk) 18:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

59.96, it is a good question how can investigations be non-invasive and cooperative. I am a frequent contributor at WP:COIN and feel that I can give a perspective on this. One way is to simply ask an editor if they are paid using {{Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Question}} or equivalent, and assume good faith that the answer is true and complete. In some cases this doesn't work, so we depend on what we see in the articles. Conflicted editing, as a rule, is bad editing and leaves a pretty big signature of POV wording, content, and selective sourcing. Rarely, but occasionally, an off-wiki connection will be made but really this is not the norm. You can see in the Orangemoody case how some scammed businesspeople contacted Wikipedia to complain and the ball got rolling from there. - Brianhe (talk) 19:50, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

That's a good explanation, but I feel like I need to add that there is a very real risk that, as the problem grows in the near future, intentional violators will find better ways to cleverly camouflage their POVs, to make it look like innocuous editing. There are tremendous incentives to game the system, if we make it practical. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Mildly, another mention of that traditional suggestion: we could also make paid editing that little bit less lucrative by substantially increasing the notability requirements for businesses and businesspeople. At present any business that can cobble together a half dozen trade magazine reports of their press releases has a moderate shot at an article here, and these small-scale companies are a key market for UPE. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:06, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Then I'll give what is becoming the traditional reply. Yes, I think nearly everyone regards that as a good idea, but the question is whether it would be sufficient by itself. Per #Break 3, I am sure that it will not be. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:09, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

What, to solve the entire issue? No, it wouldn't be. But worth doing all the same. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:14, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! That means that we agree, and I am glad about that. I know of a few editors who have in fact argued that it would solve the entire issue, or close to it, and I hope that they will come to be persuaded. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:20, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

By increasing notability standards; allowing functionaries (or a subcommittee) to block on privately held evidence; continuing to run checkusers on paid sock farms; and deleting any UPE created articles (provided they have not been substantially edited by other editors in good standing) and salting them, will be able to play a major role in reducing the effects of undisclosed paid editing. Mkdw ^talk 00:00, 4 February 2017 (UTC)