Talk:Trypophobia

Please hide the trypophobia inducing pictures

As someone with a severe case of trypophobia, I came to wikipedia to extract some information that might be helpful for me. I guess that's the case with most people suffering from any kind of phobia. Let me just say this: It does absolutely not help if the first thing you see on a wiki page is a picture that triggers your phobia. Please show some courtesy and put all the pictures at the end of the article with a disclaimer that warns people from scrolling down too far - or find a more sophisticated solution where one has to click the picture to see it. IMHO this should be a rule for any kind of content that's related to phobia or showing otherwise disturbing content. I'll personally not be editing this article for obvious reasons. 212.63.83.45 (talk) 15:02, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi, IP. I also have trypophobia and I understand what you mean, although the image (not images) in question doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to; this is because I've been exposed to it so many times (which is akin to exposure therapy). But because we are an encyclopedia and readers who don't have trypophobia will want to understand what induces it, it's felt that an image that is known to induce it should be somewhere in the article. I don't see how having the image farther down will help, considering that those who read past the lead (introduction) will also come across it and, if those readers have trypophobia (as they likely will since it seems that most readers who visit this article have it and visit it to understand it), they will also be triggered by the image.

That stated, whether or not to include the image has been discussed before. At Talk:Trypophobia/Archive 1#discussion (in 2013), we can see that Robert McClenon (the closer) stated, "There was no consensus on removing the image, but the image has been hidden, and there has been no recent request for exposing the image." At Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 122#Images on phobia articles (in 2015), consensus seemed to be for not including phobia images in phobia articles, especially the Trypophobia article. Ian.thomson, for example, stated, "The policy WP:IAR is there to say 'you don't need to apply WP:NOTCENSORED when doing so involves trolling the readers.' There is a difference between censoring articles to accommodate chosen beliefs and not taking an action that obviously is going to cause a significant portion of the target audience medical issues (even if those issues are psychosomatic, they're still medical issues). Going out of one's way to include triggers in articles on phobias is WP:DICKish and WP:POINTy. [...] WP:NOTCENSOR has been seen, see WP:REHASH and explain how inserting phobic stimuli into the article on the phobia itself does not go against WP:DBAJ. We are not here to decide which phobias are real, only note which ones are notable, and note what scientists have to say about it. You have yet to explain how not causing medical problems for obvious target audiences is the same as removing images of Muhammad or information on evolution." Emphasis mine. And I tend to agree with Ian.thomson. At Talk:Trypophobia/Archive 2#RfC Should we include this image? (in 2015), AlbinoFerret, states, "There is consensus for including the image. The majority opinion cites WP:NOTCENSORED, in this section of the policy page we find that the main page is WP:DISC which warns of triggering by images. The minority argument is mainly that the image may cause physical harm, but offers no examples of physical harm happening from the specific image. It also cites WP:UNDO, but only for the image and not for the other uses of the same source. There is also discussion of collapsing the image, but there is no consensus to do so."

Personally, looking at that 2015 discussion, I saw no consensus for including the image. To me, that discussion was "no consensus." Also, since that discussion, more research has been done on trypophobia and researchers are clear that it exists and negatively impacts those it affects. The imagery can cause harm. The imagery does not only induce psychological issues, but neurovegetative (autonomic nervous system) responses as well. What researchers debate now is whether or not it should be classified as a phobia and what the causes are. Seeing stuff like this and this, and your comment above, which relay that our readers have expressed psychological and neurovegetative harm at seeing the image, I am worried for them and am open to hiding the image in the lead in a collapse box so that those who want to see it can see it. But, in the 2015 discussion, WhatamIdoing notes issues with collapsing images. You can also see that WhatamIdoing expressed concern for those who might be harmed by viewing the image. I think it's time for another RfC on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:29, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, regarding this, why do you think moving it down will help? It's still going to induce trypophobia, and it will come as even more of a surprise to readers who think that the article is image-free until making there way to the end of it. I don't find the image to be decorative at the top. It's there to help readers understand what induces trypophobia. Also, an editor already tried moving it down and was reverted by one of the editors who have been most vocal on retaining the image. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:21, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

My recommendation, and I do not have an aversion to the image, is that the image be moved further down the page. That way, a reader who takes a quick look at the article will not see the image, but a reader who scrolls down the page will see it. However, there should not be any sort of a warning that scrolling down the page will reveal an image. We can assume that anyone who reads down the page is ready for the image. I would make the same recommendation about an image of decaying or diseased flesh, for instance, if the article was about flesh-eating bacteria. Move the image half-way down the page. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:52, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, thanks for offering a perspective. I'm someone who would read the whole article, though, and I'm sure that there are a lot of others like me. I don't think that most readers who start reading the article and see no image will expect a trypophobic image later on; I think they will be surprised to find it lower and, if they have trypophobia, just as upset if they'd found it higher. That stated, if the image is placed where WhatamIdoing placed it, they would have read a good portion of the article before coming across the upsetting image. I still prefer that it be placed at the top but collapsed since it's not easy to describe to people what induces trypophobia unless they see the type of imagery that induces it. It's not as simple as stating "a fear of holes." People with trypophobia can see holes and not have a reaction. It's about the pattern, look and depth (what researchers describe as "images that present high-contrast energy at low and midrange spatial frequencies"). And it's not just holes that induce trypophobia. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:18, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

My suggestion to move it wasn't about reducing or removing triggers (although, given how few people read past the first section, it might have that as a side effect).

I don't actually think this image is in the article for any educational purpose. I think it is more decorative than educational, and therefore, IMO it ought to be removed per policy. That said, if we're going to have it, it would make more editorial sense to put the image in the section that mentions a study involving lotus seed pods, instead of up at the top, where this plant isn't even mentioned. Therefore, I suggest moving it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:19, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, I disagree, considering that, as made clear in the RfCs, what induces trypophobia is not easy to demonstrate. In the 2015 RfC, you even stated, "First of all, it's not 'a pattern of holes'; it's being disgusted solely by an irregular pattern of holes (or bumps). This is much more 'disgusted by skin diseases' than 'frightened by polka dots', and these patterns don't turn up very often in everyday life. I'm looking around me, and I don't see anything that qualifies. Secondly, surprise matters for things that are disgusting or frightening." In that RfC, Abecedare also stated, "I came across this discussion through WP:VPP, and frankly the description 'fear of holes', 'irregular patterns of holes' is not close to as helpful in explaining what is being talked about (I initially imagined something like caves or fishing nets), as the image. The image is not simply gratuitous, but useful to the general reader in understanding the subject of the article." And I've already noted above why I don't think moving it lower helps at all. Started an RfC below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

The image can be removed on grounds it is off-topic. The image itself does not state it is related to the topic. The images that state they are related to the topic can be found here. QuackGuru (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

The image is not off-topic in any way; we have reliable sources, such as this one and this one, making it clear that lotus seed pod imagery induces trypophobia. We state it in the "Epidemiology" section, which is why WhatamIdoing moved it there. In the "Society and culture" section, it is noted that lotus seedhead imagery is one of the top trypophobia-inducing images. In the 2015 RfC, Abecedare stated, "I am not the only one who seems to think so, since the editorial decision to include such images has been made by almost every source on the subject including the first scientific paper describing the phenomenon, as well as popular accounts in mainstream publications such as the Scientific American, Washington Post, Popular Science, CBS News, Smithsonian Magazine, NPR, The Atlantic, and The Independent (the Statesman Journal appears to be the sole exception, although only the first page seems to have been archived so that too is not certain)." This is true; this image is the most common one given as an example of inducing trypophobia. The images you cited in the "A Case Report and Comprehensive Review of the Literature" don't change that and those images are specific to that case -- that little girl who has trypophobia. Not everyone with trypophobia is going to react to those images. I sure don't. Those images are not noted as common trypophobia-inducing images, but the lotus seedhead imagery is commonly shown to be a trypophobia-inducing image. Of course, the lotus seed pod image in question is not cited in the sources; it doesn't need to be. It's not like researchers are going around using the same exact image of a lotus seed pod. All is needed is an image of a lotus seed pod if we are to show one. RfC below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Should the image be removed, retained in the lead but collapsed, or moved down?

There has been much debate about this image (of a lotus seed pod) at the Trypophobia article. So far, the debate has produced a 2013 RfC, a 2015 Village pump (policy) discussion, a 2015 RfC here at this talk page, and now this one. The first RfC closed as no consensus to remove the image, the second discussion did not have an official close, but more editors leaned toward excluding the image (and other phobia images in phobia articles), and the final RfC closed as consensus for including the image. The discussions have concerned whether or not including the image is beneficial to readers, and whether or not it causes unnecessary harm to our readers. One view has been that the image is educational because demonstrating what induces trypophobia is not easy since a simple explanation of "a fear of holes" or "irregular patterns or clusters of small holes, or bumps" does not suffice. People with trypophobia can look at holes or irregular patterns and not have a reaction. Rather, the condition is about certain patterns, and in particular images that present high-contrast energy at low and midrange spatial frequencies. Lotus seed pod imagery is commonly noted as imagery that induces trypophobia and is used by researchers to test for trypophobia. Another view is that the image is irrelevant, decorative, or not needed, and that, even if it is educational, it causes unnecessary harm to our readers; this is seen, for example, here and here. WP:NOTCENSORED has been cited in past discussions. Some have felt that removing the image based on the possibility that it might harm readers, especially if the condition is not real or an actual phobia, is censoring. Others have stated that this is not a matter of WP:NOTCENSORED; it's a matter of whether we really need the image for the topic and whether we want to risk causing our readers harm. The imagery won't harm those without trypophobia, but it will harm those with it (they are the ones most likely to visit this article) and, with more research on the topic having been done since past discussions, researchers are are clear that it exists and does induce negative psychological or autonomic nervous system responses.

As a compromise, editors have suggested collapsing the image (although collapsing it has been noted as something that would cause accessibility issues), or moving the image far down the page. So should we remove the image? Retain the image in the lead, but collapse it? Or move it lower? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• Keep in the lead, but collapse. Like I stated in the #Please hide the trypophobia inducing pictures section above, I am someone who has trypophobia and I prefer that the image be placed at the top but collapsed since it's not easy to describe to people what induces trypophobia unless they see the type of imagery that induces it. It's not as simple as stating "a fear of holes." People with trypophobia can see holes and not have a reaction. It's about the pattern, look and depth (what researchers describe as "images that present high-contrast energy at low and midrange spatial frequencies"). And it's not just holes that induce trypophobia. In the 2015 RfC, Abecedare also stated, "I came across this discussion through WP:VPP, and frankly the description 'fear of holes', 'irregular patterns of holes' is not close to as helpful in explaining what is being talked about (I initially imagined something like caves or fishing nets), as the image. The image is not simply gratuitous, but useful to the general reader in understanding the subject of the article." Also in that RfC, DES stated, " I think that collapse is the best choice. An image is helpful, although not required, to allow readers to have a better idea of what sort of things cause this reaction in people (and there seems no doubt that there is a reaction, whether it is a 'true' phobia or not). But as was mentioned in the original VPP discussion, a lead image is displayed on previews before anyone even opens the article on the mobile site, and is instantly visible when a person opens the article, as people who suffer from this condition might be more prone to do than random people. The potential for harm is real, and a collapsed image that can be displayed with a single click is not censored. I have been strong in applying WP:NOTCRNSORED in the past, but this seems to me a very different situation. This is not a matter of offending someone's beliefs, political, religious or whatever. This is a medical issue. " I agree with all of that; I think we should go with WP:Ignore all rules with regard to collapsing in this case. As for moving the image far down, I noted above that I'm someone who would read the whole article, and I'm sure that there are a lot of others like me. I don't think that most readers who start reading the article and see no image will expect a trypophobic image later on; I think they will be surprised to find it lower and, if they have trypophobia, just as upset if they'd found it higher. To me, that is sort of a WP:Principle of least astonishment issue. That stated, if the image is placed where WhatamIdoing placed it, they would have read a good portion of the article before coming across the upsetting image. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I would kindly request you to reconsider and take into account that this flies in the face of long-standing policy. Back in 2013 I wanted to get anatomical dissections collapsed, but this does fly in the face of CENSOR and presents a number of technical issues where some users will never be able to see the image. And seeing as trypophobia is not a phobia, it is not apt to remove it on grounds of WP:SHOCK. Carl Fredrik ^talk 02:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I've considered all sides and I stand by arguments in this case. And no one can validly state "not a phobia and that's it" in this case anymore. This book source, which Doc and I have cited, notes that trypophobia may be considered a specific phobia. Researchers now discuss whether or not trypophobia is best classified as a phobia, but they are clear that trypophobic imagery induces fear, disgust, or both fear and disgust. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:29, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

• Leave in lead and collapse Agree with Flyer's analysis. Since the image is an ongoing complaint, collapsing would seem to be a good compromise. wp:IAR If it is collapsed, perhaps a few more images could be added which could give a more general idea of what can cause a reaction. Jim1138 (talk) 23:57, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
• Keep in the lead and do not collapse Seriously there are much much worse. But this image gets the idea across beautifully. Article is much much less clear without it. For those who have this condition to a serious degree, I am sure they browse the internet with images off. Exposure therapy is a treatment to phobias generally starting with a mild exposure (such as this) and moving to more significantly disturbing ones. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:02, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Doc, except we see time and time again that there are readers who have the condition, whether to a mild or serious degree, who apparently don't have images turned off. The IP in the #Please hide the trypophobia inducing pictures section seems to be the latest example. And in terms of "much much worse," lotus seed imagery is one of the top trypophobia-inducing images, especially when photoshopped onto human skin. It is perhaps the top trypophobia-inducing image, which is why researchers use it to test for trypophobia, and so many sources on trypophobia, such as this one, include a picture of it. Also, Wikipedia is not therapy (although repeatedly looking at the image here on Wikipedia has significantly desensitized me toward it). I would cite WP:Wikipedia is not therapy, but that is about the behavior of editors. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:32, 27 October 2018 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:41, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

And we have people who ask for sexually explicit images to be removed (supposedly harms young people). And people who ask for images of psychological test material to be removed (supposedly if the general populous sees it their usefulness will decrease). And people who ask for images of Mohammad to be removed (culturally insensitive). And people who want historical images of mental illnesses to be removed (not politically correct). And people who want images of drug paraphernalia to be removed (supposedly triggers addicts to use). And people who want images of smallpox removed (they find the images disturbing). Etc. We are an educational source. This image adds to this article.

The statement "The potential for harm is real" however the potential for benefit is just as likely. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:14, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Sexual images are not the same. Except for disgust, reaction to sexual images are not causing the same type of reaction that trypophobic images cause. As you know, I work on a number of sexual topics here at Wikipedia and I know that readers commonly object to images sexual images. Because of this, we consider WP:Offensive material and follow it at a number of our articles. If it's something like the Breast article, of course we are going to use an image of an actual breast. But at a lot of sexual topic articles, we use drawings or similar illustrations instead of real-life imagery because drawings or similar illustrations are less offensive to our readers, the real-life images tend to distract more and come across as pornographic rather than educational, and because the drawings or similar illustrations get the point across just as well as (sometimes better than) the real-life imagery. Religious issues like Muhammad are not the same. You've made that argument before and have been challenged on it. See the comment by DES that I quoted above. In the case of this article, I have not suggested removing it. I and others have suggested collapsing it because it can cause mental and physical harm to our readers. I don't understand why you are so against collapsing the image as a compromise. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:38, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

You have again made a completely unsupported statement "it can cause mental and physical harm to our readers". Are you going to provide evidence for your statement? The evidence for benefit is much greater than that of harm.[1] Keeping the image here may in fact help peoples mental health.

Treatment of specific phobias to common situations is NOT to avoid said common situation. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:47, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

We know from the sources, like this review in the article, that people can be psychologically harmed and have negative physical reactions from looking at trypophobic images. We know from the readers who have complained about the image. Do you think that that the symptoms mentioned in the "Signs and symptoms" section are positive reactions? They aren't. This book source you cited, which is also the book source I cited in the article and in this discussion, does not support retaining the image. You are citing that source because it mentions exposure therapy. It notes that exposure therapy may help, not that it will help. I noted that repeated exposure to the image has helped me, but it's also made me more sensitive to trypophobic images. For example, bubbles never used to bother me, but now some bubble patterns make me think of the lotus image or trypophobia. Furthermore, Wikipedia is not therapy. So I fail to see why you are suggesting that we use Wikipeida as therapy for readers. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:02, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Frontiers has been labelled in the past as a predatory publisher. A negative physical reaction does not equal physically harmed.

Plus the journal article contains 8 potentially triggering images. The book you mention does not support hiding images. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:06, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

It's obviously not just Frontiers Media that has documented the negative signs and symptoms. And I know that Frontiers Media was listed as a predatory open-access publisher, but the listing was controversial (as also noted in the Frontiers Media Wikipedia article). The listing is also currently no longer in the Predatory open-access publishing article. You and I define "physically harmed" differently in this case. The book you mentioned notes that trypophobia may be considered a specific phobia, and we know that phobias do cause mental harm. The source also notes that people report becoming physically ill from looking at trypophobic imagery. As for the review's images, those images are specific to that case -- images that affected that little girl. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:23, 27 October 2018 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:23, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

No one is claiming that "phobias do not cause mental harm". The question is does exposure cause long term mental harm or does it actually make people better in the long run. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:36, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

But, Doc, it is not up to Wikipedia to try and take on exposure therapy. That's my point on you suggesting we keep the image un-collapsed in order to help readers. We agree on a lot (on most things, really), but we won't be agreeing on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

• Keep in lead but leave collapsing up to other decisions per Flyer22 Reborn and WP:NOTCENSORED. ^Semi_Hypercube ✎ 00:08, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

  I don't know if it's appropriate to cite a humorous essay, but also see this section for a description of an incident not unlike this one. ^Semi_Hypercube ✎ 00:11, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

• Leave in lead and collapse BTW, the photo disturbed me greatly and made me feel nauseated the first time I saw it here a while ago. It was hard to get it out of my mind. The ones that were used for the study that QuackGuru linked to did not bother me at all. This one seems "alive" to me and menacing in a strange way. I like Jim's idea of including some of the less disturbing pictures. As much as this one bothered me, it fascinated me as well that a picture could effect to the degree that it does - so I'd hate to see it deleted. Gandydancer (talk) 00:39, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Keep in lead and collapse to avoid deliberately upsetting the people most likely to want to read the article. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:53, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Keep in lead and collapse (see permalink as found by Flyer22 below). Rules are great but they are not applicable for every situation and this outlier warrants an outlier solution. NOTCENSORED is not relevant for this unusual case. Johnuniq (talk) 00:58, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Do not collapse per WP:NOTCENSORED. The image does a lot to aid understanding. It should probably remain in the lead as well. Anyone who desires to carve out an exception to WP:NOTCENSORED for phobia articles should make a proposal on the larger matter at the appropriate venue. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 01:22, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Keep in lead, do not collapse. This is an informative encyclopedic article, not a self help website. People looking for help with phobias should not be looking to wikipedia for tips anyway. The photo is encyclopedic. Natureium (talk) 01:31, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Natureium, I think that people are usually coming to this article to better understand the condition rather than for tips on treating it. The only "tip" is exposure therapy, and exposure therapy doesn't work for every one. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:17, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Exposure therapy has excellent evidence and is in fact the initially recommended treatment for specific phobias. It is effective in about 90% of people. Kaplan, J. S.; Tolin, D. F. (2011). "Exposure therapy for anxiety disorders: Theoretical mechanisms of exposure and treatment strategies". Psychiatric Times. 28 (9): 33–37. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:51, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not therapy and no one should be suggesting that we use it as therapy. I'm also 100% certain that most readers with trypophobia who visit this article and see that lotus image do not return to the article and therefore get true therapy by seeing that image. Exposure therapy requires repeated exposure. What proof do you have that readers are returning to this article for exposure therapy? Also, trypophobia often presents with an autonomic nervous system response. Researchers generally don't believe that the reaction is due to societal factors. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:23, 27 October 2018 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:23, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

• Remove the image completely and link to a gallery in the links at the bottom or at least Keep in the lead and collapse as a shitty compromise. Frankly, I can't believe this is an ongoing discussion or even something open for a vote. We might as well have a flashing gif in the lead of the epilepsy article. There are people who will become physically ill from such images who are also the people who are prevented from reading the article about their condition. This is a no-brainer. This is not "censorship". The image does not "aid understanding", quite the opposite as it prevents users who would most benefit from reading the article from reading it. Telling people who have the condition they shouldn't be reading a Wikipedia article anyway is just disgusting. —Pengo 01:38, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
  • So you consider a feeling of disgust to be equivalent to an epileptic seizure.... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:35, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Keep the uncollapsed image, but move it to mid-article. The topic has been an "internet phenomenon" that peaked in early 2016, but has declined in interest by 70% since. Some 16% of people have this reaction,[2] indicating that the probable majority of page visitors (216,000/month) are ok with seeing the image. The image itself is relatively benign (as are soap bubbles or air-filled chocolate bars) compared to some of the pictures in the video at trypophobia.com. A reasonable solution would be to keep the image (or substitute it with a cut Aero chocolate bar -- I'd like the article to have more examples to show the range of stimuli, as shown in the Atlantic article) but place it in the Signs and symptoms section, perhaps with an infobox statement that the article contains images that may be disturbing to some users. --Zefr (talk) 02:17, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Zefr, I think that most readers visiting this article are ones with the condition looking for information on the condition. Furthermore, researchers are clear that aversion to trypophobic imagery is common. Like I stated above, the lotus seed pod imagery is one of the top trypophobia-inducing images, if not the top one. Just look at the comment by Gandydancer above. Bubble imagery is the far less tame of the two is significantly tame compared to lotus seed pod imagery. I don't think it's a good option to add even more trypophobia-inducing images. Also, this article is not that big and more images could overwhelm the article and cause WP:Sandwiching issues. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:38, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

• Keep in the lead and do NOT collapse

I've presently arguments strongly before, I now refer to Doc James. There is absolutely no standard for collapsing mages, so that's just a no-go per policy even if the RfC finds that it wants to do that... (Hopefully it won't because doing so is just inane.) Carl Fredrik ^talk 02:43, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

• Keep in lead and collapse Agree with Flyer22's detailed articulation. The WP:Content disclaimer does alert those who find it that Wikipedia may contain images and videos which can trigger epileptic seizures and other medical conditions, but barely any readers are aware of this. In addition, Wikipedia in general needs to be more welcoming to more potential editors; I think it's worth considering that people with trypophobia (probably a disproportionate fraction of those interested in learning more and editing the page) are likely to be averse to working on an article that presents a triggering image at the top every time they save. FourViolas (talk) 03:06, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

• Keep in the lead and use progressively sharpening gif Keep in the lead, with an image that is sufficiently blurred (at least in the sweet spot, if not the whole image) that the adverse effect would not be triggered in the most sensitive person. Rotate the gif through five, progressively sharper images, of about five seconds each. This will give anyone sufficient time to notice what's going on, and to move away, before the fully sharp image appears. (Include a link in the caption to skip the intervening images, and go directly to the sharp image.) An example of an image of this type can be seen in the discussion section below. Mathglot (talk) 06:16, 27 October 2018 (UTC) updated by Mathglot (talk) 09:49, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Keep in lead/collapse, or move it down. I don't think this case is covered by the spirit of NOTCENSORED, which you can see by looking at the pull quote in the NOTCENSORED section that discusses ideological objections. It's always seemed a bit weird that we chose this image. Do we have a view from a high place on the agoraphobia article? No. Enterprisey (talk!) 06:56, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• keep in lede/do not collapse readers should get use to per[3]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:27, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Keep as is. A larger number of people suffer from arachnophobia, estimated in some studies at up to 6%, with perhaps 1% suffering from severe symptoms. So should we remove or blur all images of spiders? Peter coxhead (talk) 10:39, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Peter coxhead, it is worth noting that, except for a cartoon image at the bottom of that article, we currently don't include images of spiders in that article. As seen with List of phobias, we also don't include images in the vast majority of our Wikipedia phobia articles. The difference with trypophobia is that the vast majority of people have not heard of it, although many have experienced it, and many have no idea what induces it. As noted above, explaining it with text alone is insufficient. Arachnophobia has gotten far more attention than trypophobia has and people know what spiders look like. I am for retaining the image, but we keep getting readers who have panic attacks or other negative reactions (mental and/or an autonomic nervous system response) from seeing the image. These people just want to learn more about trypophobia here at Wikipedia, but are scared away from doing so because of that image. Gandydancer's experience with the image is my experience (except for the nausea). It is not pleasant at all to have that experience. I truly do think that, per DES, the best option is to collapse the image in the lead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:53, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

• Keep in lead, no preference on collapsing – I'm not familiar with policy or precedent surrounding the collapsing of images, but it would seem pretty obvious that this image enhances a reader's understanding of the subject matter in a way that words alone cannot. Its importance undoubtedly trumps the concerns that it causes harm, since Wikipedia places a higher priority on educational value, especially when the effect from harm is not serious and completely subjective. I understand the request to collapse the image, but if this causes accessibility concerns, particularly among mobile readers, then it should be avoided. --GoneIn60 (talk) 11:24, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

Pinging all of those who were involved in the past discussions or edited regarding the image, except for those that are no longer editing (meaning they haven't edited Wikipedia in a year or years, whether because they stopped or were indefinitely blocked) and those already aware of the discussion (WhatamIdoing and QuackGuru): Silver seren, Vkil (Edgar Vekilnik, Jr.), Pengo, Nyttend, Jytdog, Doc James, SPACKlick, CFCF, Ian.thomson, EvergreenFir, Masem, NeilN, DESiegel (DES), Alanscottwalker, Thisisnotatest, Ozzie10aaaa, Wikimandia (МандичкаYO), Looie496, Roches, Godsy, Rhododendrites, Jerodlycett, Comatmebro, Stickee, Mangoe, Gobonobo, Trystan, Anthonyhcole, Wongba, Yobol, B, Someguy1221, Inomyabcs, Jim1138, Vorsipellis, and Robert McClenon. The IPs obviously can't be pinged. I will also alert the relevant WikiProjects, the WP:NOTCENSORED talk page, and Village pump (policy). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

• Suggestion: @Flyer22: Perhaps you could edit, adding a collapsed image, then revert. Add a link to that version to give an idea what it might look like? Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 00:00, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Jim1138, back in 2015, this edit by Silver seren showed what it will look like. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:32, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Some kinda caption here.
Warning: the focused image contains patterns of holes that may be disturbing to some viewers.

• Suggestion: use a progressively sharpening gif as proposed above, with the aid of the Wikipedia Graphics Lab (pinged to this location) who can hopefully comment on the feasibility of this approach. Mathglot (talk) 06:36, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

  Wow! Practically no sooner had I posted, than User:PawełMM came up with exactly what I was imagining. Graphics Lab folks are the best! Mathglot (talk) 09:33, 27 October 2018 (UTC)