Talk:Murder of Keith Blakelock

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Death of Keith Blakelock/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: GregJackP (talk · contribs) 03:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Please recheck your references. One comes back with a suspicious/dead link (fn119 - soft 404); 4 come back to connection issues. There are 3 paywall refs (which are OK, just noting their presence). If possible to use an archive site, that is preferable, but not required. OK, with the connection error showing as noted below by SV - and like she said, the link itself works fine.
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	While valid fair use rationale is used, I would recommend a further search for alternative photos or images, especially if the plan is to take this to FA.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	On hold for 7 days to check footnotes/refs. I don't anticipate any problem in passing this once that is fixed. Passed, congratulations.

Hi Greg, many thanks for the review. I think I've fixed the links. This one is still coming up blue, but when I click on it, it's fine.

Regarding the two fair-use images (PC Blakelock in uniform, and his overalls after the attack), there aren't any free replacements, so it's either fair use or nothing, I'm afraid. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I was afraid that might be the case. It is properly justified, and like I said, doesn't affect it passing GA. You would know more about going to FA with it than I would, but I encourage you to nominate it for FA. It's a very good article. GregJackP Boomer! 23:53, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks very much for passing it, Greg, and I'll definitely think about taking it to FA. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Surprised this isn't a FA to be honest. Very good read and excellent work. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 11:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

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Local

We learn that Mark Duggan was local. I could not care about this fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.127.25 (talk) 14:24, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Over reliance of article on David Rose citations

Given this article in The Observer it's clear that David Rose is utterly one-sided and unreliable as a fair commentator. He made up his mind that Winston Silcott was innocent and nothing would change that view. Why else would he 'agonise' that the ESDA tests might reveal that the police account was accurate? To be agonised over scum like Silcott, a convicted murderer, thief and thug going to prison for hacking a decent policeman to bits, that alone marks him out as horribly biased.78.19.6.213 (talk) 18:13, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

First or third?

"Broadwater Farm riot": The second death was that of PC Keith Blakelock, the first police officer since 1833 to be killed in a riot in Britain.

"Death of Keith Blakelock" (this article): He was the third officer to be killed in a riot in the London area since 1833, when PC Robert Culley was stabbed to death in Clerkenwell.

Which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.184.247 (talk) 02:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Please stop edit-warring a deprecated source into the article

The WP:DAILYMAIL is a deprecated source, with a history of forging quotes. Even on the occasional plea that this is the Sunday version, it's still an unreliable tabloid.

SlimVirgin, you know Wikipedia sourcing better than this. Why are you blind-edit-warring this extremely dubiously sourced material back in? WP:BRD requires you to discuss, which you clearly didn't do - you gave no reason, I gave two explanations. What's the defence of this material under WP:BURDEN? - David Gerard (talk) 18:16, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

You should not be removing this source over objections. My understanding of the consensus is that the Daily Mail can still be used, but not casually or routinely. You also removed a link to the image posted by The Sun, which is very much part of this history.

The Daily Mail is used here as a primary source for the quotation from Divisional Fire Officer Trevor Stratford, starting "I remember running in with another fire officer to get Dick Coombes. I literally slid into the group ...". It's a very moving description of what the men did to try to save Blakelock. There is no reason at all to suppose that it isn't an accurate quote. It has been in the article since 2011. SarahSV ^(talk) 18:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

It has been in the article since 2011 The argument that we should keep bad content because it's old bad content has never been treated on Wikipedia as a strong argument.

The consensus I'm working to here is the two strong general consensuses reached in 2017 and ratified in 2019. You asked in your edit message that I respect consensus - I am. You appear to be invoking a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS that I see zero evidence of on this talk page - if this isn't the "consensus" you were invoking, please clarify.

Your claim is that "The Daily Mail can still be used", even though the RFC conclusion was that the DM is generally prohibited.

The precise exception you claim, to keep the quote - from the Daily Mail, a site with an extensively documented history of fabricating quotes, which is why it was deprecated - is: It's a very moving description - that is, "I like it". Even though eyecatching details and ginned-up descriptions are precisely the sort of thing the DM fabricates.

This doesn't seem a strong argument for keeping the DM quotes, and wouldn't last long at WP:RSN - which is the proper venue should you wish to carve out an exception to generally prohibited.

If there are zero other sources for the quotes than the DM, that's an argument against keeping them (per the RFC conclusion), not for keeping them. If there are other sources, we could of course use those and not the DM.

Have I missed aspects of your argument?

- David Gerard (talk) 19:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Generally prohibited doesn't mean prohibited in every case. It is used here as a primary source. That kind of exception was discussed with the closer after the first RfC. It will take me time to track down those discussions. But clearly there's no reason to suppose the named reporter would have made up that quote from an interviewee. You're engaging in a serious BLP violation to suggest otherwise. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

If you seriously think that not including the DM constitutes a BLP violation, you know where WP:BLPN is. If you don't seriously think that, you're really not helping your argument any.

Your argument appears to be "exceptions might exist, so I'm going to say this is one."

This is not a primary source - it's a news story. This is literally not what the words "primary source" mean.

The DM is a deprecated source. This means it is presumed unreliable and untrustworthy. It's been caught fabricating whole interviews. I keep finding, over and over, even examples where it claims to be quoting a press release and gins up the wording. RSN recently discovered that the DM faked its own past content on dailymail.co.uk - we literally can't trust the DM as a source for the content of the DM.

The WP:BURDEN of proof is on you to show that anything from this source is both necessary and irreplaceable, not on anyone else. That's why we went through two RFCs to establish its status as such.

Let me know when you want to take this to WP:BLPN, per the above. WP:RSN would also be a suitable venue - David Gerard (talk) 20:00, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

It's a BLP violation because you're alleging of the reporter with the byline that he makes things up. The interview is a primary source. No other aspect of the story is used, just a quote from an interview with the person quoted in the article. I can contact the interviewee if you like to ask him to confirm that he said those words. He could email OTRS. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:07, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

That's a nonsensical use of BLP. The Daily Mail has a serious track record of pure fabrication, that's well documented, and it's the reasonable default position. Is that your total backing for your claim that this should go in?

I am also unconvinced by the offer to literally go out and do original research for a Wikipedia article to support the use of the DM as a source - David Gerard (talk) 12:11, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Call for more eyes posted to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Use_of_extended_quotation_solely_from_Daily_Mail_on_Death_of_Keith_Blakelock - David Gerard (talk) 12:15, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I can't see this being considered an allowed use of the DM. To use for the source of a "moving' quote is right out for both being the DM and that we are not her to create sympathy (WP:NOT#MEMORIAL) - even if that quote appeared in the BBC, we should not be using it. --Masem (t) 12:44, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Do not use — DM has been known to fabricate quotations and cannot be relied upon to report them accurately, failing WP:RS. buidhe 15:33, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Its the Daily Mail and should not be being used for quotes.Slatersteven (talk) 15:54, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• Well, ONUS is pretty clear on who is responsible for the reinsertion of controversial material. More to the point though, why isn't this quote found anywhere else? One might assume that the bloke's interview might have been picked up by others, syndicated perhaps. But the only news outlet that has it is the Daily Mail; likewise no books either.
  However. I'd say the words are inaccurate but maybe convey the basic sense: Tim Brain's A History of Policing in England and Wales from 1974 quotes Stratford as saying:

  I half turned and saw the PC about 20 yards behind me. He just stumbled and went down and they were upon him. It was just mob hysteria. I stopped about 40 or 50 ft further on and turned. They had fallen on him and I completely lost sight of him. There were about 50 people on him" He was in "one hell of a mess". Sergeant Pengelly, in charge of the serial, turned and ran at the mob, bravely driving them off. Couch, Mr Stratford, and other officers ran back too and managed to pull PC Blakelock away, but by then he had sustained multiple stab wounds and a knife buried deep into his neck, right up to the hilt. Within minutes the 40-year-old father of three was dead.(OUP 2010, p.113)

  Suggest using this quote, or paraphrasing it, instead.
  Or as Masem says, just don't include it as a non-encyclopedic, NOTMEMORIALisation...it is rather (probably unnecessarily) florid.——Serial ^# 16:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

So, the DM may not in fact be accurately quoting, enough said.Slatersteven (talk) 06:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Depressing

I can't tell you what a depressing discussion this is for me. It's upsetting for several reasons, partly that I put a lot of work into this. But it's also the ideology over thinking that upsets me. It upsets me that that has gained the upper hand on Wikipedia, because our most important rule was always IAR. The significance of that was precisely a signal that ideology should never replace thinking on this project. Whenever I've helped to write a content policy, I've tried to build space for thinking into it.

As for the topic, I assume none of you were living in the UK when this happened. The importance of this to recent English history, and the way the country saw itself, can't be overstated. There are lots of competing interests and viewpoints, which made achieving NPOV hard, and I believe I succeeded. If it doesn't look as though it was hard, that's because you haven't read the article and you're not familiar with the topic.

That quotation is an important part of the effort. The article has been written to hang together. One thing is there because of the proximity of something else. I've been intending to tidy it and nominate it for FAC. When I write, I follow Wikipedia:Guidance on source reviewing at FAC. I look for the most appropriate source. Sometimes that will be a primary source; that's particularly true for quotations. Of course you take under things into account, but the idea that Paul Harris, the Daily Mail reporter, would not have conveyed this accurately, or that the fireman, Trevor Stratford, would not have complained if he had not, doesn't stand up to a minute's scrutiny.

There is a similar quote in The Times from Stratford about Blakelock that I could use. But it loses Dick Coombes and Dave Pengelly, and the image of Stratford sliding back into the crowd like a rugby player. This is important imagery: "I remember running in with another fire officer to get Dick Coombes. I literally slid into the group, like a rugby player charging into a ruck. We dragged him out, but he was in a hell of a state ... Dave Pengelly kept a rearguard barrier between us and the rioters, standing in the middle of it all with just a shield and a truncheon, trying to fend them off, which is an image I'll never forget."

Coombes never recovered his health. Pengelly was awarded the George Medal. The quote is a good one because it very neatly describes the involvement of the four men (Stratford, Coombes, Pengelly and Blakelock) at that moment. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Super not interested in the bigger fight going on here, but with respect to the fireman, Trevor Stratford, would not have complained, I think you are mistaken: one of the surprising things about the Jayson Blair scandal was that he'd been making up quotes and interviews for ages, and that no one complained. Presumably, that's because people don't remember exactly what they say in interviews, and Blair's fabrications didn't cast any of the non-quotees in a bad light. --JBL (talk) 21:00, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

But there is no reason to suppose that the quotation was made up or changed. This business with the Mail is conspiracy theory, something I despise and that I thought all sensible Wikipedians did too. But for some reason, when it comes to the Mail, the community (or part of it) has let itself be led down that path. SarahSV ^(talk) 21:25, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I am not a disputant here (I have never added or removed the DM as a source anywhere, particularly not on this article); I am just observing that your argument (which is, to paraphrase, "this quote is presumably real because if it were made up the person who is alleged to have uttered it would have complained") is not convincing. Because in the few cases where this can be documented clearly, people seem (as a general rule) not to complain when made-up quotes are attributed to them (as long as those quotes do not obviously cast them in a bad light). --JBL (talk) 21:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

The Mail has traditionally had good police sources and was known for its court reporting. If it is true that they made up quotes elsewhere, they are exceptionally unlikely to have done so about the police or firefighters. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:04, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I think WP:DAILYMAIL needs to be revisited, and how this whole thing unfolded. I remember at the time saying that the wording of the RfC close would cause problems. Throughout the RfC, you see people saying "Support prohibition though noting that common sense also applies"; "Only very limited circumstances"; "Support prohibition (within reason)"; "Support with reasonable exceptions".

The close at first appears to reflect this consensus: "Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited ... " (my bold). That reflected consensus. But then it veered into a supervote: "nor should it be used as a source in articles". I pointed out this contradiction on AN at the time. I wrote:

"Primefac, "generally prohibited" reflects consensus, but it's contradicted by "As a result, the Daily Mail should not be used for determining notability, nor should it be used as a source in articles." That last part says: "Do not use this as a source", and that will be interpreted strictly by editors who will remove it no matter how justified the use.

Primefac replied: "We used the terms 'generally prohibited' and 'nor should it be used' specifically because it gave a small amount of wiggle room for IAR/historically reliable usage of the DM to be used. It's not a 100% ban (which we did discuss as a possibility), because that would go against the overall consensus."

Not a 100 percent ban. But now editors are going around removing it from all articles, no matter how it is being used. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. With patently incorrect edit summaries too. I mentioned this before Christmas, to no avail. But certain users feel they are above reproach so there's nothing that can be done I'm afraid. I have also requested a method to eliminate their edits from my watchlist, but that, sadly, is technically difficult. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I remember the bit where you were furiously edit-warring a controversial claim cited to a dead link in the Sun into a BLP, without at any point noticing that the link you were insisting needed to go in was dead - David Gerard (talk) 22:32, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Whatever David. You are making false claims in edit summaries time after time. The source is not deprecated. There was no "furious edit-warring". I think you've mis-remembered. But whatever. I'm here to improve Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:34, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh I remember, the same issue as usual where you leave a mess behind that someone else has to clear up. Marvellous stuff, what a proud contribution to Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:41, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Not to mention the WP:LINKROT you introduce to just about every reference you "add". The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

It's a bad source with a long and well-documented history of fabricating quotes. That's one of the many reasons why it's deprecated. That's quite apart from all the other reasons others list above not to include the quote. The discussion on use of the source is, so far, WP:1AM against you - David Gerard (talk) 22:35, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Also pinging Sunrise, Jo-Jo Eumerus, Tazerdadog, who co-closed the RfC. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

If your aim is - as this comment appears to be - to relitigate WP:DAILYMAIL, it's probably time to move this discussion in its entirety to WP:RSN, so as to avoid the dangers of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS - David Gerard (talk) 22:33, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

My aim is not to relitigate it here. My aim is to show you that one part of the wording of that RfC did not reflect consensus, and that this was discussed at the time. We do need to revisit it. Not here, but we do, because you are acting on that one sentence ("do not use") but not the overall close ("generally"). SarahSV ^(talk) 22:46, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

"One part of the wording of that RfC did not reflect consensus"??? The closing summary of WP:DAILYMAIL was countersigned by four respected editors, and unless I missed something, nobody has ever even tried to challenge that close. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:23, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

The Rambling Man, we can and should do something about it. I keep seeing these edits, and editors being left angry and distressed, sources removed and text left unsourced, or text removed. It's unacceptable, and I don't believe the people who responded to the first RfC ever intended that to happen. But any attempt to gain new consensus needs to happen slowly and carefully to make sure we finally get it right. I'm going to start by researching how each of the RfCs came about and their closes. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:03, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Take it to RSN, but given the recent "they oven fact their own front pages" BS I know how far you will get.Slatersteven (talk) 06:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Break

This is far from the first time that people saw "generally", "usually" or synonyms and read it as "always". Changing some sentences in WP:DAILYMAIL - such as cutting the "source" sentence mentioned above, which should probably go - might help but I wouldn't bet on it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:19, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Jo-Jo Eumerus, forgive the repetition but I want to make sure this is clear. The RfC was closed by Yunshui and countersigned by you, Primefac, Sunrise and Tazerdadog. But it contained a contradiction (my bold):

Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail (including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist. As a result, the Daily Mail should not be used for determining notability, nor should it be used as a source in articles.

Calling it "generally prohibited" implied that it could sometimes be used. But adding that it should not be used implied that it could not sometimes be used. This was a fatal flaw in the close, and it meant that it did not reflect consensus. I pointed this out on AN at the time. Primefac responded that it was not a 100 percent ban. I said: "the problem is that it will be interpreted as written. Another problem is that the close didn't distinguish between the Mail as a primary and secondary source". The RfC also wasn't advertised on CENT. Now David is removing the Mail and the Mail on Sunday from every single article in which they are linked. The Mail on Sunday is a separate newspaper with a different editor and staff. Here he removed the Financial Mail on Sunday. SarahSV ^(talk) 13:05, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

• @SlimVirgin: can we lose (I assume none of you were living in the UK when this happened) the subjective assumptions/ calls to emotion please. For the record, I was drinking in The Swan a fortnight before it kicked off so I don't suppose I have to draw you a diagram.
  Back on objective point, there are two issues here: the contents of the quote and the sourcing of it. Personally, the material as it stands strikes me as unnecessarily lurid, and I can't see that knowing a rugger tackle was used particularly aids the reader. Likewise, the machete stuff: too much detail? I don't see why that can't that be described noncommittaly in the prose.
  The bottom line seems to be that contentious and disputed material is being sourced only to the DM, but we have a reliable, independent source that provides much the same material without the doubts as to its authenticity, it seems a textbook application of WP:DM. ——Serial ^# 09:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Serial Number 54129, it's an eyewitness account that describes the situation of four of the men, far better than any third party could summarize. SarahSV ^(talk) 13:10, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
    • I gave a >60-word quote from the same individual's eye-witness account, the only real difference being that this isn't as lurid and is cited to an impeccable source. ——Serial ^# 13:20, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
      • But it loses the others and what Pengelly did: "I remember running in with another fire officer to get Dick Coombes. I literally slid into the group, like a rugby player charging into a ruck. We dragged him out, but he was in a hell of a state ... Dave Pengelly kept a rearguard barrier between us and the rioters, standing in the middle of it all with just a shield and a truncheon, trying to fend them off, which is an image I'll never forget." SarahSV ^(talk) 13:24, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
        • Pinging Cassianto and Tim riley, who I see had the same problem. David has done it to one of my FAs and to this one that I would like to bring to FA. I've wondered about asking FA people about not being allowed in any circumstances to use the Daily Mail or, it seems, the Mail on Sunday, no matter how reliable the reporter. This is contrary to everything I know about choosing sources on Wikipedia. SarahSV ^(talk) 13:42, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
• Not A BLP Violation. Not usable as a source. When your name is on something that was published in The Daily Mail, BLP does not protect you from someone pointing out the fact that TDM has been caught fabricating quotes and entire interviews again and again. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the claim that under certain limited circumstances TDM doesn't lie is very much an extraordinary claim. Saying "it doesn't make sense to me that they would lie in this circumstance" doesn't cut it. I for one am tired of playing Whac-A-Mole, documenting new ways that TDM fabricates information as editors claim "I know in my heart that this time they can be trusted". No more. Show me evidence that they can be trusted in certain circumstances. Don't ask me to prove again and again that they can't be trusted. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:05, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion here has become a relitigation of WP:DAILYMAIL, to the point of pinging the RFC closers to this end. As such, I've moved the discussion text that was here there, to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Use_of_extended_quotation_solely_from_Daily_Mail_on_Death_of_Keith_Blakelock, to avoid the dangers of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in reevaluation of an RFC - David Gerard (talk) 11:13, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I've restored. If you want to copy posts somewhere, that's fine, but please don't move them. I'm about to post something. SarahSV ^(talk) 12:56, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

• Hell caught faking their own historical headlines. This is why they are depreciated, so we do not have to show every damn time they are telling porkies yet again.Slatersteven (talk) 11:18, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

  We have never caught The Daily Mail fabricating stories on a Tuesday under a byline that contains the letter "Q", so it would be a clear WP:TLA to remove those citations. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)