Talk:Turkish people

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Archive 10 has been created with a link at right. Archive 11, when needed in the future, should be a new subpage (same as creating an article) titled "Talk:Turkish people/Archive 11" and the link added to the template on this page's code. For further information on archiving see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page. Thetruthonly (talk) 21:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Article Image

Old version "SomeFamousTurk.png" contains images from non-free sources. In addition, used images are aligned wrongly. I suggest its removal. New version "TurkishPeople.png" are made of public domain pictures. Kaygtr (talk) 11:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I personally prefer the current image: File:TurkishPeople.png. Though we can improve this image further.Justinz84 (talk) 18:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Too few women

There is only one woman depicted. Are there more well known women who can be placed in it? - Yorkshirian (talk) 08:01, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Azra Akın, Miss World 2002
• Türkan Akyol, First woman Minister in the Turkish government (who later became the first woman President of a Turkish university).
• Sezen Aksu, singer, song-writer and producer who sold over 40 million albums worldwide
• Safiye Ali, first female doctor in Turkey; Treated war-wounded in the Turkish War of Independence, the Balkan Wars (of 1912/13), and in WW I.
• Leman Altınçekiç, First accredited female Aircraft Carrier pilot in the world. Preceded Lieutenant Kara Spears Hultgreen (first female American Aircraft pilot) by almost 40 years.
• Sema Aran, First female Army Officer. First Lieutenant Aran was commissioned just after to the Korean War.
• Ayten Alpman, singer famous for her song 'Bir başkadır benim memleketim'
• Sureyya Ayhan, Olympic athlete
• Sabiha Bengütaş
• Semiha Berksoy, opera singer
• Gönül Bingöl, first Turkish female surgeon
• Tansu Çiller, Turkey's first female Prime Minister
• Filiz Dinçmen, first Turkish female Ambassador to a foreign county
• Sertab Erener, winner of the Eurovision song contest 2003
• Mualla Eyüboğlu, one of the first female architects in Turkey
• Kara Fatma, Turkish folk heroine
• Sabiha Gökçen, the first female combat pilot in the world
• Nigâr Hanım, poet
• Mihri Hatun, Ottoman poet
• Nene Hatun, Turkish folk heroine
• Remziye Hisar, first Turkish female pharmacist
• Afife Jale, first Turkish actress
• Hülya Koçyiğit, actress and State Artist
• Suna Korad, soprano who held the title of 'State Artist' in Turkey.
• Nezihe Muhiddin, founder of the first party of the Republic of Turkey
• Bedia Muvahhit, actress and State Artist
• Gülsin Onay, pianist
• Elif Şafak, writer and the best-selling woman writer in Turkey
• Emel Sayın, actress, singer and State Artist
• Princess Durru Shehvar, Ottoman princess famous for the Durru Shehvar Children's & General Hospital in India
• Türkan Şoray, actress and State Artist
• Adile Sultana, Diwan poet and a philanthropist
• Razia Sultana, was the Sultana of Delhi in India and the very first woman ruler in the Muslim and Turkish history.
• Meriç Sümen, ballet
• Fatma Aliye Topuz, women's rights activist and humanitarian (currently illustrated on Turkish banknotes)
• Tülay Tuğcu, the President of the Constitutional Court of Turkey
• Arzuhan Yalçındağ, billionaire and the president of the Doğan Holding Justinz84 (talk) 14:30, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Turks in Infobox

The infobox must be reviewed. Turks in West Europe are usually citizens of Turkey working as foreign workers (Gastarbeiter). But most Turks in Bulgaria, Greece, Iraq etc., are not citizens of Turkey. If Turk is defined as citizen of Turkey ( the first sentence of this article), then Turkish speaking communities in ex Ottoman lands should not be tabulated together with citizens of Turkey working in foreign countries. (At least a distinction must be made in the table) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

This article is not about Turkish citizens. If it was then Kurds and other ethnic minorities such as Greeks, Armenians and Jews would also be mentioned. This article is about ethnic Turks. Turks in Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Iraq, Kosovo, Macedonia and Romania are ethnic Turkish people.Justinz84 (talk) 23:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Defining Turks on the basis of ethnicity is very difficult. Of course mother tongue is a criterion. But defining Turkish speakers is also problematic. BecauseTurkish is member of a wide language group of at least 30 languages (so called Turkic) which includes Azeri, Turkmen, Tatar, Gagauz, Uighur etc. Some languages of this group are mutually intelligible. Should mutually intelligible languages also be groupped as Turkish ? If not, which measure should be used to define a Turkish speaker ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not about Turkish speakers either... you don’t have to know the language to be a Turk. Turkish people are people who identify themselves as such. For example, I'm Turkish Cypriot and have lived most my life in the UK and US. I don’t speak the Turkish language fluently nor do I have Turkish nationality but still regard myself as a Turk. Hence, there is a difference between ones ethnicity and nationality. This can also be seen in many census’ whereby Turkish minorities such as those in Bulgaria, Macedonia and Kosovo have claimed to be a Turk in the last census... Moreover, many Turkish immigrants from Turkey living in countries such as Germany and the Netherlands are becoming German/Dutch citizens but this does not make them any less of a Turk nor their children.Justinz84 (talk) 17:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Image in the info box

The current image is ridiculous! Showing people like Hadise is a total joke! We should be showing Turks who have actually contributed to this world. I have created an image; 2 rows so far, I was thinking that we do a third row with people of today e.g. Hakan Şükür, Tarkan, Tansu Çiller, Hülya Koçyiğit etc.

Anyway, this is what I have created so far:

File:Famous Turkish people.png

This image consists of the following people:

• Top row, left to right:
  • Leyla Gencer - World-renowned Turkish operatic soprano.
  • Aydın Sayılı - Turkish historian of science.
  • Halide Edip Adıvar - Turkish novelist and feminist political leader.
  • Mimar Kemaleddin Bey - Turkish architect.
  • Feriha Tevfik - First ever Turkish model and Miss Turkey.
  • İbrahim Şinasi - Turkish writer.
  • Fatma Aliye Topuz - Turkish novelist, columnist, essayist, women's rights activist and humanitarian.
  • Turhan Bey- Hollywood actor.

• Bottom row, left to right:
  • Namık Kemal - Turkish nationalist poet, translator, journalist, and social reformer and Freemason.
  • Cahide Sonku - Turkish actress, model, writer and the first female film director in Turkey.
  • Mustafa Kemal Atatürk - Turkish army officer, revolutionary statesman, and founder of the Republic of Turkey as well as its first President.
  • Sabiha Gökçen - Turkish aviator and the first female combat pilot in the world.
  • Besim Ömer Akalın - Doctor and scientist.
  • Nigâr Hanım - Turkish poet.
  • Tevfik Fikret - Turkish poet.
  • Leyla Saz- Writer.

Turco85 (Talk) 15:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for this Turco85! I'll put it in the info box now. What about adding some olympic winners such as Ramazan Sahin, Ayhan Sureyya, Naim Süleymanoğlu or Halil Mutlu? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justinz84 (talk • contribs) 23:12, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I have just realised that the image is a bit big. So I am going to remove the last two images; so it wil be 7 in a row rather than 8.Turco85 (Talk) 15:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Another image was already created. This image is made of non-free source images, so I am not sure about adding it.

File:TurkishPeople.png This one is better. Kaygtr (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer the one which Turco85 has created. It has an equal amount of Turkish men and women who have contributed to society. The second image has too many politicians and seems a bit stereotypical with all those images of sultans. Turco85 is going to add one more row to the image so please feel free to give your suggestions. I agree that Orhan Pamuk should be in the image Justinz84 (talk) 21:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Kaygtr, not all those images that you have used is in the public domain. Its very likely to be deleted soon.Turco85 (Talk) 19:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Mahmud Kahghari should be replaced by another figure. He was not from Turkey/ Ottoman Empire and therfore does not fit into this article "Turkish people". --Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:16, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The image with sultans and more people from the history is far better. the current one has: -too much people from after the time of Ataturk -i dont think that Feriha Tevfik is really one of the most important Turks -i dont think that Turhan Bey is really one of the most important Turks - Nigâr Hanım and Tevfik Fikret as Turkish poets dont sound really like one of the most important Turks those and others in the image, were they known throughout the world?? I think that Ottoman sultans are more important, ofcourse you dont have to add all the sultans but Osman I, Mehmed II, Suleyman I and Abdulhamid II should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.85.21.37 (talk) 10:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Fatih, Kanuni, Ataturk

Fatih, Kanuni ve Ataturk resimde en basta yer almali. AverageTurkishJoe (talk) 03:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

are some users just plain stupid?

Seriously this is getting annoying now. If users want to change the image in the info box then be my guest... as long as all the images are actually in the PUBLIC DOMAIN! Also, you keep changing the population figures of Turks in the countries they live in as well as the rest of the information on this article because you keep repeating characters. Please stop changing the ENTIRE article to an earlier point in history just so that you can add an image!Turco85 (Talk) 19:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia; what you think of dictators or dictatorship or promoting/not promoting turkish people does not matter much. Fatih, and Kanuni changed the course of the history and they happen to be turkish whether you like it or not. Wikipedia does not have a mission to fight monarchy and bourgeoisie and fight for the suffrage of turkish women. Editorial decisions based on such concerns are expressly prohibited in Wikipedia. AverageTurkishJoe (talk) 13:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

AverageTurkishJoe, is it you who keeps repeating characters? If you want to change the image then please just do that. Stop changing the entire article as you are removing all the new information which is contributed by other users. As for your views on who should be in the image please discuss this in the section above (section: Image in the info box). As you can see there is already a discussion on having a third row in the image. Justinz84 (talk) 10:01, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

No it is not me. (You can see who is making changes in the edit history.)AverageTurkishJoe (talk) 15:07, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks at other users such as "are some users just plain stupid?" Aregakn (talk) 20:53, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Well it would be great if some users would refrain from keep vandalising this article.Turco85 (Talk) 17:20, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Can I move this page to "Turks", please? 67.124.202.32 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC).

No. Kavas (talk) 21:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Origins

All people pages like Russian people, etc has origin section. The origin section of this page, coming from History of the Turkish people should be rewritten for sure, but this section should not be removed. Kavas (talk) 21:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

POV

Turkish citizen and ethnic Turkish are different. But in this article the Turkish citizens are shown as the ethnic Turkish. Takabeg (talk) 04:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Turkish citizen (Türk vatandaşı, Yurtdışında Yaşayan Türk Vatandaşları) is the citizen of the Republic of Turkey and includes many kind of ethnic groups, Kurdish, Zaza, Laz and son on. And this group doesn't include some ethnic Turkish group who doesn't have Turkish citizenship. We can use numbers in this list for Turkish citizen (Türk vatandaşı). But these number are invalid for Turkish People (Türkiye Türkleri).

Turkish people (Türkiye Türkleri) is one of the ethnic groups of Turkic people. For example, about 55 million Turkish people lives in Turkey.

In this article will we write about which one ? Now there are serious problems in this article. We have to solve them. Thank you.

Takabeg (talk) 02:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Turkish people do not have to be from Turkey! What are you talking about, Turkiyeli Turkler??? What about Turkish Cypriots? they are Turkish but not from Turkey!Justinz84 (talk) 18:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

We use the term Türkiye Türkleri for the ethnic Turkish living outside Turkey, for example ethnic Turkish in Bulgaria. We use the term Anadolu Türkleri for the ethic Turkish living outside Anatolia, for example ethinc Turkish living in Rumelia of Turkey. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 00:24, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

No we do not use the term Anadolu Turkleri for Bulgarian Turks. We simply use the word Turks- why not check the Bulgarian census. It says nothing about Turkey Turks. The same goes for other countries. Turkish minorities living in Bulgaria, Cyprus or Rumelia settled in these countries before the Republic of Turkey was established! We are not from Turkey but we ARE Turkish!Justinz84 (talk) 08:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The old name was Osmanlı Türkleri today we use Türkiye Türkleri. See sources. Türkiye Türkleri isn't equal to Türkiyeli. Takabeg (talk) 12:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

And by the way, CIA is no longer used in this article. See previous discussion on this matter.Justinz84 (talk) 08:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

CIA 70 - 75 %

KONDA - 55,000,000.

Helen Chapin Metz, ed. Turkey: A Country Study. Washington: GPO for the Library of Congress, 1995. Turks Turks 80-88% is too old (1995).

Please don't exaggerate the number of ethnic Turkish. Thank you.

Takabeg (talk) 12:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

In Turkish language Türkler means not only ethnic Turkish (Türkiye Türkleri), also Turkic people (Türk halkları), Turkish citizen (Türk vatandaşı, Türkiyeli) etc. It's very ambiguous term, maybe you know. Takabeg (talk) 12:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

And pleas don't use Yurtdışında Yaşayan Türk Vatandaşları for ethnic Turkish. These datum are related with Turkish citizens including other ethnic group from Turkey. About 30 % of them are not ethnic Turkish. Takabeg (talk) 13:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

This article is on the Turkish ethnic group. And since this is the English language wikipedia, we use the English words for these things, although the Turkish words can be included as a side-note. Ashmoo (talk) 15:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Again you are wrong in the Turkish language we say the following Turkic groups like this:

• Turkish= Turkler (hence the saying 'ne mutlu Turkum diyene' (How happy I am to be Turkish)... we do not say 'ne mutlu Turkiyeli Turkum diyene' (How happy I am to be a Turkey Turk)
• Azeri= Azeriler
• Kyrgyz= Kırgızlar
• Turkmen= Türkmenler
• Uzbeks=Özbekler

Justinz84 (talk) 17:30, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

You have said in your last edit summary that We know that they are not only from Turkey. Cyprus, Iraq, Bulgarıa. Stop Vandalism. So if you know why are you still calling them Turkey Turks? Your reference proves nothing.Justinz84 (talk) 17:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

original research

Justinz84 persistently tries to use the datum for Turkish citizen (including non-Turkish ethnic group, for example Kurdish, Zaza, Laz ets.). Maybe for him all of Turkish citizens are Turkish people. Now we must consider that original resaerches are included in this article. We must solve these serious problems. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 17:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources which state that Kurds, Laz, Armenians, Jews etc etc etc which are included in the figures are only stated in the source for the German Turkish population. Nonethesless, the latest figures (2010) state that There are 3.5 million people of Turkish origin living with us in Germany. (http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/london/en/03/__Political__News/Westerwelle/Tuerkei__Seite.html)Justinz84 (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The source does need updating. I think we should add this source to the info box and remove the footnote of 4 million. Regards.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 16:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Iraq

A, B, C are not Identifying reliable sources. They are political and ideological sources. Why Identifying reliable sources were removed ? Why ideological sources are prefered ? Takabeg (talk) 18:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It is widely accredited that the Turkish population in Iraq is undervalued due to the community living in the oil-rich Kirkuk. Many academic sources state this.Justinz84 (talk) 18:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Please add many academic sources and remove these ideological sources. Takabeg (talk) 18:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok. We can add both the low and high academic estimates. Would you like to discuss which ones are reliable before editing the article?.Justinz84 (talk) 18:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

For example, Bill Park (2005) in Turkey's policy towards northern Iraq (page 36) states that Ankara and the Iraqi Turkmen Front claim 3 million whereas the CIA states 500,000. The source also illustrates how Turks feel discriminated due to the Kurdish influx.Justinz84 (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Mustafa Kibaroğlu, Ayșegül Kibaroğlu and Talât Sait Halman (2009) in Global security watch--Turkey: a reference handbook (page 165) also clarifies this.Justinz84 (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

CIA

CIA World Fact Book is considered as one of the Identifying reliable sources. We can use it too. Takabeg (talk) 18:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Well if you read previous discussions you would see that I was in favour of using the CIA source. However, it was users of Greek origin who opposed to it causing a non-stop edit-war until the page was protected. Ironically, given the fact that you see CIA as a reliable source, you will see that they refer to Turkish people are Turks and not 'Turkey Turks'.Justinz84 (talk) 18:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

CIA World Fact Book is Identifying reliable sources. In every article it is used. We don't have to ask other users to use it. In English we don't use Turkey Turks. In Turkish we use Türkiye Türkleri. Understand ? Takabeg (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

If you asked a Turkish Cypriot in the Turkish language are you a Türkiye Türk they would say no. Again, a person does not need to be from the Republic of Turkey to be Turkish. Of course the majority are descendants from Anatolia but that is all it does not make them a Türkiye Türk it just makes them a Türk.Justinz84 (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Shall we use CIA World Fact Book ? If you want, I'll ask Greek users. Takabeg (talk) 18:47, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Did only User:Athenean reject the reliability of CIA World Fact Book ? Other users ? Takabeg (talk) 18:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

To be honest I cannot remember. I would have to look into the archives but I do believe that this user was one of them. The only thing confusing me now is that before you was arguing that the number was 55 million due to the Konda report. Now you want to use CIA which would place the figure between 53,763,866 (70%)-57,604,143 (75%). Can you please find more references stating that ethnic Turks make up 70%-75% of Turkey's population?Justinz84 (talk) 19:01, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Konda

KONDA also Identifying reliable sources. This is more precise than others. Why you remove this source ? Please stop vandalism. Please. Takabeg (talk) 18:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

This source states that in 2006 there was 55 million people who identified themselves as ethnic Turks (page 26). So is the current figure of 58 million for 2010 really unrealistic?Justinz84 (talk) 18:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

No. Its your original research. Takabeg (talk) 18:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

So you are saying that in the last 4 years the ethnic Turkish population has not increased at all?. The Library of Congress estimated a total of 57,514,400 ethnic Turks in 2008. (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/profiles/Turkey.pdf page 9)Justinz84 (talk) 18:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

We use it too in this article. Takabeg (talk) 18:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

We must use the datum of CIA World Fact Book. That shows the demographic structure after "Kurdish overture". Takabeg (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

In short, the percentage of ethnic Turkish in Turkey is 70% - 80%. Takabeg (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide a variety of sources stating that ethnic Turks make up 70% of Turkey's population? Because the majority of sources clearly and traditionally state around 80%.Justinz84 (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Traditional datum must be updated. Takabeg (talk) 18:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Well if you can find a variety of reliable sources then of course it should be updated.Justinz84 (talk) 18:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Konda indicates 76%. 72,561,312 x 0,76 = 55,146,597.12 Takabeg (talk) 04:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

edit warring

Is now stopped for the next four days while the page is protected. If you do not think you can reach a consensus pursue some form of dispute resolution. After the protection expires, keep in mind that the only exception to the policy on edit warring is the reversion of blatant vandalism, anyone who engages in multiple reverts or other edit warring behavior can expect to be blocked. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Beeblebrox. I hope this dispute will be resolved soon!.Justinz84 (talk) 18:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I hope too. But it's difficult because some users confuse Turkish citizen and ethnic Turkish and try to exaggerate the number of ethnic Turkish. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 18:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Takabeg, I find your comment to be a little hypocritical. Lets take other ethnic group articles into consideration:

• Bulgarians: according to Suman Gupta and Tope Omoniyi (2007) in The cultures of economic migration: international perspectives (page 58) '...statistical figures for short term emigration (6 months to 1 year) are: Bulgarians 80%, Turks 12%, Gypsies 6%, others 2%. Of populations involved in long term emigration 81% are Bulgarians, 13% Turks, 2% Gypsies. Labour migration is divided as follow: 77% Bulgarians, 12% Turks, 8% Gypsies'.

However, if we look at the Bulgarians article we can see that they use the following sources:

• demo.istat.it. (Italy) which currently gives a population of 40,880 Bulgarian citizens.
• Federal Statistical Office of Germany (Germany). But academic sources also state that there is a large Bulgarian Turkish population. e.g. Michael P. Smith and John Eade (2008) in Transnational ties: cities, migrations, and identities (page 173)
• It should be noted that the majority of the sources on that article are from The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Bulgaria. However as Nikolaĭ Genov and Anna Krŭsteva (2001) in Recent social trends in Bulgaria, 1960-1995 (page 73) point out '...the Bulgarian nation includes all foreign members of the Bulgarian diaspora yet excludes ethnically different citizens who were born and have lived in the country [Bulgaria] for centuries'.

• Greeks. Many Western Thrace Turks are under the term Greeks and can be found in the majority of the European Greek communities (as well as the US). See for example Cem Şentürk (2008) West Thrace Turkish's Immigration to Europe.

However, if we look at the Greeks article we can see that they use the following sources:

• Federal Statistical Office of Germany, which states that 294,891 are Greek. But as many source will again show us thousands of Turks are also under this title e.g. Richard Clogg (2002) Minorities in Greece: Aspects of a Plural Society (page 84)
• It should be noted again that the majority of the sources on that article are from the Hellenic Republic Ministry of Foreign Affairs or others sources which lead to nowhere e.g. the source for Belgium.

• Macedonians (ethnic group). Turks make up areound 5% of the FYRM and again also form part of the 'Macedonian' diaspora.

For example, Jane K. Cowan (2000) in Macedonia: the politics of identity and difference (page 106) notes the presence of Albanaians and Turks being part of the Macedonian diaspora in North America.

If we take a loook at the article Macedonians (ethnic group) demo istat (Italy) is again used and so is the Federal Statistical Office of Germany, and Statistik Schweiz for Switzerland; all countries with large ethnic Turkish communities.

These are just a few examples. I can give you many more if you wish.Justinz84 (talk) 10:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem here is there is some inflation using not-the-best of sources, as in many other ethnic group articles. In cases where the number of Turks in a country is uncertain, typically the maximalist estimate is used, often based on a dubious source, and no lower estimate is included. Let's discuss the figures for each country on a case by case basis:

• Turkey: If we take Justinz's "ethnic Turks" criterion, the figure of 58,000,000 (80% of 72.5 m) is slightly problematic, though it is not too bad. While it commonly accepted that Kurds make up about 20% of Turkey's population, not everyone in the remainder is an "ethnic Turk". Albanians, Bosnians, Greek Muslims, Laz, Arabs, Georgians, Hemshins, Circassians and many others. While most of the above groups have assimilated, they are not ethnic Turks. For me, the most reliable source on the issue is a recent study by Turkish academics that was commissioned by the government and published in Milliyet [1]. This is a major study, the result of many years of work by serious academics, and commissioned by the Turkish government itself. For me, this is by far the best source on the distribution of ethnic groups in Turkey, and it gives a figure of 55 million for ethnic Turks of Turkey.

• Iraq: The figure of 3 million is a gross overestimate, and the sources used are inadequate. New World Communication Inc., UNPO, KerkukNet, these are not reliable sources. KerkukNet is in fact a Iraqi Turkmen advocacy website. I don't know much about Amikam Nachmani's book as it is unavailable online. Given the situation in Iraq and the difficulty of obtaining accurate ethnic demographics, my hunch would be to go with the CIA factbook and US State Department (at least they have people in the country). Both give a figure of 500,000, which is in line with what I have seen widely quoted in the media. The figure of 3,000,000 is well over 10% of the total population, and I have never seen it quoted in a reliable source.

• Germany, France, and other Western European countries: Takabeg is correct in pointing out that many of the individuals listed as Turks in Western European countries may in fact be ethnic Kurds. If we use the 20% estimate for Kurds in Turkey and crudely apply it to Turkish communities in Western Europe, the figure of 2,800,000 million Turks in Germany becomes less than 2,300,000. Justinz, you need to be consistent. You can't claim that some of the people listed as "Greeks" in Germany are in fact Turks of Western Thrace (who make up only 1-2% of Greece's population), while ignoring the fact that many "Turks" in Germany and other countries are in fact Kurds (who make up 20% of Turkey's population).

• United States: Encyclopedia of Cleveland History, Turkish Society of Rochester are not reliable sources. The US Census is by far more reliable. Use it, and only it. It includes "Turkish ethnicity", so I don't see why we need those other (low quality) sources.

• Australia: Same problem as the US. The Australian census includes ethnicity, so it should be used instead of the low quality sources currently used.

• Greece: The sources used, e.g. "Western Thrace Minority University Graduates Association" are advocacy groups, hence highly partisan and unreliable. Since the Bulgarian census information is used for Bulgaria, I don't see why the Greek census results can't be used for Greece. I had entered it as a source earlier, but someone falsified it with a bogus source.

The figure for most of the other countries (Cyprus, Bulgaria, etc...) seem ok on first inspection. Though there are still some problems with some of the sources used, there has been a noted improvement over older versions of the article, and I believe with a bit more work we can iron out the last problems. Athenean (talk) 21:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Athenean, I sincerely thank you for your views. I’ve been waiting for a reply from anybody because the article will be available for editing again soon and this discussion seems to be going nowhere.

• The figure of 55 million does not seem unrealistic to me at all. Though in previous times when I have tried to use the Milliyet website as a form of referencing many objected as they saw it to be biased (ie pan-Turkish). But lets not forget that groups such as the laz are unfortunately usually put under the heading ‘kurds’. So although many people maybe put under the heading ‘Turks’ [though to be fair they have either been Turkified or have assimilated] the remainder are actually named under the label ‘Kurds’.
• Regarding Iraq, many academic sources merely state that the Iraqi government places the figure at 500,000 whereas the community itself places the figure at 3million. Academics themselves seem to avoid making their own estimates and merely just state that there is a statistical dispute.
• Can you actually find references stating that Kurds make up 20% of every western European country? I’m sure that you could not. Many of you seem to forget that Kurds in Europe do not just come from Turkey. Many are also from Iraq, Syria, Armenia and Iran...
• As for Western Thrace Turks, they make a significant part of the Greek community in Germany. This is a fact, one which can be found in a variety of sources. The smallest estimate of the community is 12,000. If Greeks are a population of 350,000 in Germany, at least 3.5% of them would be ethnic Turks. Yes Turks make a small percentage of Greece’s population, but that is only because so many of them have left or have lost their citizenship.
• I find it ironic that you do not find the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History as a reliable source yet you find the Milliyet source reliable. It’s laughable. Again if you are to read sources on the migration of Turks to the US many are from the Balkans as well as from Turkey. In fact, recent Turkish migration to the US was 15,000 Turks from Russia.
• I would also like to bring to attention some of User Takabeg’s intentions. On his/her talk page they have stated the following under the section ‘Turkish people’: ‘...In this case we remove Turkish descent Bulgarians, Meskhetian descent Georgians and Russian and so on. Do you understand me ?’; they are clearly trying to decrease the ethnic Turkish population, right? Athenean, how would you feel if I tried to remove the Greek Cypriot population or the Greeks of Albania from the Greeks article? Who is Takabeg to decide that suddenly the Turkish minorites in Bulgaria and the former Soviet Union shouldn’t be in the article? Moreover, Takabeg has also shown an interest in Joshua Project! I wonder why? We all know the reason. This user has clearly dug their own grave.
• You can all play the Kurdish card as much as you like. I for one do not deny that Kurds have also emigrated from Turkey to Europe. But Kurds have also immigrated from Iraq and Syria. Moreover, Turkish minorities have immigrated to Europe; e.g. the overwhelming majority of Turks in the UK are actually Turkish Cypriots; Western Thrace Turks have mainly immigrated to Germany and the Netherlands; Bulgarian Turks to Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden. Ahiska Turks to the former Soviet Union. This is all in academic journals and textbooks.Justinz84 (talk) 22:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I forgot to add in my previous post that in the footnotes it does state that the figure for Germany 'includes ethnic minorities from Turkey but does not include ethnic Turkish minorities outside of Turkey'. Academic sources places the Kurdish population in Germany at around 500,000. There is around 4 million people of Turkish origin in Germany placting the ethnic Turkish population at around 3.5 million.Justinz84 (talk) 22:48, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

We must compare with the official numbers of Turkish citizen abroad. And we must not use this chart for Turkish people. Takabeg (talk) 02:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

We do not need to 'compare' anything. Sources which state the number of Kurds included in the Turkish population can be used. The source you have just provided is only about Turkish citizens and says nothing about the amount of Turks or Kurds.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 09:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

No. Not only Kurdish population but many groups are included in Turkish citizen. This article are written about ethnic Turkish isn't it ? Kurdish, Zaza, Laz, Arab emigrants from Turkey are not ethnic Turkish. OK ? Now Turks in Bulgaria, Kosova, Rumania etc. are ethnic Turkish, Turkish Cypriots are ethnic Turkish, Iraqi Turkmens are ethnic Turkish. Kurdish, Zaza, Laz, Arab etc. and non-Turkish citizen - ethnic Turkish people must not be shown in same table. the official numbers of Turkish citizen abroad can be used in the article Turkish citizens abroad. Takabeg (talk) 14:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The majority of figures currently used are not based on Turkish citizens. Many of the sources include the number of Turks who are born in the host countries and who many even have differenct citizenships in its estimates. Not all Turks have Turkish citizenship. If the sources do not clearly state that the numbers inlcude Kurds etc then I don't see the problem.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 15:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

In English Wikipedia most of articles related ethnic Turks (diaspora, population, Turks in X) are too ethnocentric. Approaches in the article de:Türkeistämmige in Deutschland (in German Wikipedia) is more encyclopedic. In that article we can use datum about Turkish citizens. Takabeg (talk) 15:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll give you an example. In the source that you have provided by the T.C. Çalışma ve Sosyal Güvenlik Bakanlığı it gives a population of 423,471 Turkish citizens living in France. It is important to remember that these figures are for 2006. However, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (2008) shows us that a further 110,000 Turkish citizens have taken French citizenship between 1997-2006. Therefore, there are at least 533,471 people who have had Turkish citizenship at one point in France. So trying to decrease a figure of 423,471 due to the fact that not all Turkish citizens are Turks is wrong. I would prefer to see sources which either say that the population includes other ethnic groups or their actual population.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 16:07, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Önemli olan diğer etnik grupları kalmamak. Bu madde etnik Türk hakkındadır. Ona göre uygun kaynaklar seçilmelidir. Türk vatandaşları ayrı konu ve Türk vatandaşların sayısını gösteren kaynakların bu maddede kullanılması mümkün değil. Takabeg (talk) 16:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes I agree with you but trying to judge the number of Turks by looking at how many Turkish citizens live outside Turkey is unjustifiable. For example, there are 16,000 Turkish citizens in Azerbaijan according to this source... maybe there are some Kurds in this population, but that does not mean there is less than 16,000 ethnic Turkish people in Azerbaijan. There are actually over 100,000 ethnic Turkish people due to the Ahiska Turks being deported from Georgia in 1944. I hope you understand the point I am making. Unless the source actually says that Kurds or other minorities are included in the figures which are currently in the info box I cannot support you with your argument. Regards.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 16:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Some other questions

While this might not be the main problem with this article at the moment, could someone to explain why was this source about the number of Turks in Iraq removed? It's both a neutral source and the only one identifying the number to be about half a million, so its obviously relevant and approptiate for this article. Also a "failed verification" tag was removed from this source. The source doesn't contain the information it's claimed to contain (5 million Turks in Iraq) so removing the tag is quite disruptive. Kostja (talk) 20:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello Kostja, if you look in the 'Iraq' section of this discussion page you will see that I have already suggested that we use this source.Justinz84 (talk) 09:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

At first we have to remove these ideological claims: A, B, C. These are not Identifying reliable sources. Takabeg (talk) 02:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Ibrahim Al-Shawi says They add up to 150% of the population of Iraq. The extra 50% is propaganda and hot air! Takabeg (talk) 04:16, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Well it seems as though you are all in agreement with this. We will place both figures using the sources discussed in the above section. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 09:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Range will be shown. For example 300,000 - 3,000,000. With only neutral identified sources. Takabeg (talk) 16:05, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Page 47 of this source gives a population between 300,000 to 3,500,000.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 16:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Olabilir. Ancak (disputed) ekleriz. Propaganda siteleri kaldırırız. Zaten Kürt yönetimi (belki de ABD de) az göstermek ister, Irak Türkmen milliyetçileri ve Ankara fazla göstermek isterler. Değil mi ? Takabeg (talk) 16:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes I also think this as well. Either side could be exaggerating. I think we should just add both figures together. But we need to remove the footnote of 5 million because I could not find this in the source. Regards.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 17:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Reverting figures

I have reverted the figures which were placed because we still need to finish this discussion. Adding those figures again will not solve the problem. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 09:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

So far we are all in agreement with the population figures for Iraq so I shall change this now. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 09:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

And we must use CIA World Fact Book. Takabeg (talk) 10:08, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

And I indicated datum about Turkish citizen. Now we have to find datum about ethnic Turkish and replace them. Takabeg (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Lets please discuss everything through the discussion page. Your last actions did not help the situation. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Why is Germany disputed for? You said nothing before. The footnote states there are 4 million Turkish people. I have added that close to 500,000 are Kurds! That makes the ethnic Turkish population around 3.5 million. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

We can place both figures for Turkey. No need to say it is disputed. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

You said OK about adding (disputed). Iraqi Turkmen nationalists count Arabs whom they hope to remenber Turkmenness. You know. Takabeg (talk) 10:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

We must replace datum abou Turkish citizen (Turkish people, Kurdish people, Zaza people, Laz people etc.) with ethnic Turkish. Otherwise this article will continue to cheat readers. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 10:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

We don't need to actually write 'disputed' in bold letters. Readers will be aware that it is disputed anyway.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind having the figure 55 million for Turkey but can you remove the Milliyet reference and place another source please? It seems unfair that we can use it here when other users have opposed to it when they thought it was biased before. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

As you know both of them are propaganda. We must explain it. So we need to add the sign of (disputed) or (propagated). Takabeg (talk) 10:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

We can place something in the footnotes instead. The Info box is looking really messy at the moment. I think were figures only place the amount of Turkish citizens e.g. Italy we should have a footnote saying something like This figure only include Turkish citizens which may include other ethnic minorities from Turkey. However, it does not include Turks who have been naturalised or born in the host country; nor does it include ethnic Turks who were born outside Turkey. What do you think? Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

No. Most of datum are related emigrants by country. In this article we white about ethnic Turkish who is one of the Turkic peoples. Kurdish people in Turkey (and emigres), Zazas in Turkey (and emigre) etc. And these minority consist about 30% of total population of Republic of Turkey. They are neither Turkish people nor Turkic people. If we use datum about Turkish citizen, this article will continued to be Ethnocentric. We must not provide faked information. Our children want to exaggerate the numbers of Turkish people, we know. But here is not a forum but encyclopedia. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 11:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Turkish descent

Then why don't you provide me with the sources which just state the ethnic Turkish population then? If you can't then we should just do what I have suggested. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 11:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that a footnote would be better. It needs to be made clear that although the figures which just use Turkish citizens include ethnic minorities from Turkey it does not include the ethnic Turks who have been born or naturalised in these countries. Furthermore, the figures do not include ethnic Turks who have been born in other countries such as Bulgaria, Cyprus, the USSR, Greece and so on. Turkish minorities who immigrate to Western Europe are not listed as Turkish but as the whatever citizenship they have e.g. Bulgarian, Greek, Macedonian and so on. Turco85 (Talk) 09:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, since we are in agreement I will add a footnote. Regards.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 13:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

The info box

The total population was written between 55-70 million. How is this possible when 55 million alone live in Turkey? I have removed this ludicrous statement.

• Turkey I'm happy with.
• Germany I'm happy with.
• Iraq I'm happy with.
• Bulgaria I'm not happy with. The population is at least 800,000. We are currently using a census which is 10 years old.
• France happy with but I have a few more sources to add e.g. http://fr.novopress.info/55474/l%E2%80%99appel-d%E2%80%99erdogan-aux-turcs-de-france-devenez-francais-pour-mieux-rester-turcs/
• Austria I'm not happy with because this figure is not about Turkish citizens. There is around 120,000 Turkish citizens in Austria not 300,000. The 300,000 includes ethnic Turks who have been naturalised and born in Austria.
• Australia I'm happy with but I would also prefer a footnote.
• Greece I'm not happy with. Where is the reference claiming that there are 80,000 Turks? All three sources say 150,000.
• Switzerland the majority of Swiss Turks have been naturalised. So even if this figure is about Turkish citizens, many ethnic Turks have not got Swiss citizenship. I think we should use a different soure.
• Italy I'm definitely not happy with. Though this figure includes all Turkish citizens, it does not include ethnic Turks who have been naturalised or born in Italy. Furthermore, there is a large Bulgarian Turkish population in Italy... and what about the Turkish community in Moena who have been living there for centuries?
• Norway happy with but again would prefer a footnote instead.

Turco85 (Talk) 09:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Well can you please provide the refernces? Regards.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok will do. Just give me a few days as I am working on other articles at the moment. I have just included the Turkish population in Syria to the info box. It's a reliable academically published source and I have included both the low and high estimates so there should be no problem I hope. Turco85 (Talk) 11:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Origins

This section is poorly written. We need to improve this section please.Turco85 (Talk) 10:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

In what way? Is it poorly written in English or does the section have historical errors? The part of the section where Xiongnu was mentioned was borrowed from Xiongnu page. The "Turkicness" of Xiongnus can be discussed, but there is an academic claim that Xiongnus were grandfathers of Turks. But, I do not think there's any historical error in the section starting with Göktürks. The books of Bernard Lewis, Halil İnalcık and J. P. Mallory is used. Kavas (talk) 21:07, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Syria

There is a big problem with the figure of 750,000-1,500,000 in the infobox. The source used refers to Kurds in Syria, for which 750,000-1,500,000 seems eminently reasonable. However, this is nonsensical, as Kurds aren't Turks. From what I have seen in the literature, most sources do not even mention any ethnic Turks in Syria. Athenean (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

No the reference states the following on page 112 Suriye’deki Türklerin nüfusları tam olarak bilinmemekle birlikte Türk kaynaklar, 750 bin ile 1.5 milyon arasında değişen tahminlerde bulunmaktadır. English translation: The total population of the Syrian Turks is not known for certain however estimates suggest between 750 thousand to 1.5 million. It goes on to say that many have been Arabanised and therefore the population may actually be higher. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 07:43, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The usage of 'Turkiye Turkleri' is WRONG

If we say Turkiye Turkleri we are only referring to people from Turkey. Turkish people are just Turkler i.e. Turks. A person does not have to be born in Turkey to be Turkish. Some users have to stop trying to create a term which is not real and stop confusing us with other Turkic groups!

In the Turkish language we say the following Turkic groups like this:

• Turkish= Turkler (hence the saying 'ne mutlu Turkum diyene' (How happy I am to be Turkish)... we do not say 'ne mutlu Turkiye Turkum diyene' (How happy I am to be a Turkey Turk)
• Azeri= Azeriler
• Kazakhs= Kazaklar
• Kyrgyz= Kırgızlar
• Turkmen= Türkmenler
• Uzbeks=Özbekler

Furthermore, if we take other groups into consideration e.g. Germans who are from the Germanic peoples, they do not call themselves Germany Germans! Just Germans.. the same applies here.

Justinz84 (talk) 15:35, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Another example, we do not call Turkish Cypriots Kibris Turkiye Turkleri we call them Kibris Turkleri!.Justinz84 (talk) 15:39, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Turkish= Türkler
• Azeri= Azeri Türkleri
• Kazakhs= Kazak Türkleri
• Kyrgyz= Kırgız Türkleri
• Turkmen= Türkmenler
• Uzbeks=Özbek Türkleri

The problem is this usage. What about adding Kibris Turkleri to the translation section? Kavas (talk) 13:52, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Well it's better than before but I still think it would be best just to say Turkler. Furthermore, saying that modern migration to western Europe began in the 1960s is also wrong. For example, Turkish Cypriot migration to the UK started in the 40s and 50s. Justinz84 (talk) 07:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I have just realised something else as well, how would someone who knows no Turkish at all understand what 'Türkiye Türkleri, Girit Türkleri, Kıbrıs Türkleri, Bulgaristan Türkleri, Batı Trakya Türkleri, Rodos Türkleri, Kosovo Türkleri, Makedonya Türkleri, and Romanya Türkleri' even means? one would probably think that all these terms refers to all Turks which again is wrong. e.g. not all Turkish people are from Kosovo or Romania...Justinz84 (talk) 07:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree, I don't see the ponit in writing all these names. A person in their right mind would obviously know this anyway. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:29, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

It's a Turkish translation, a non-Turkish person does not know Turkish by definition. I write these names because "Türkler" means in Turkish all Turkic groups, including Azeri Türkleri, Kazak Türkleri, Kırgız Türkleri, Türkmenler, Özbek Türkleri, Uygur Türkleri, Kırım Türkleri, Kazan Türkleri, etc. But, Turkish name excludes Azeri Türkleri, Kazak Türkleri, Kırgız Türkleri, Türkmenler, Özbek Türkleri, Uygur Türkleri, Kırım Türkleri, Kazan Türkleri. Have not you heard Kazan Türkleri? Kavas (talk) 16:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

One would not probably think that all these terms refers to all Turks which again is wrong. e.g. not all Turkish people are from Kosovo or Romania if she/he reads that Turks of different regions have different names in Turkish in the article. Kavas (talk) 16:24, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

It is possible to move these names to a footnote, as introduction of an article should be small, but deleting these names is not a good idea, Türkler in Turkish has a wider usage than "Turkish" in English. Kavas (talk) 16:26, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest a footnote. But you have forgotten a few names such as Turks in Syria etc. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 18:02, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Turks in Syria, Turks in Iraq: Türkmen. Kavas (talk) 01:00, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Turkmen refers to people from Turkmenistan. The communities in Iraq and Syria are sometimes called 'Turkoman' and 'Turkmen' but they were mainly Ottoman Turkish migrants. They are Turks not Turkmen as many sources would clearly show you. You have also forgot to include the Ahiska Turks; if you are not going to include all the names then I don't think that any of the others should be used either. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the list of names. There are around 500,000 Turkish Cypriots, 400,000 Western Thrace Turks and over half a million Bulgarian Turks in Turkey... They are not Turkey Turks are they? and what about those who came to Turkey from Yugoslavia? Turco85 (Talk) 21:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Current image is totally WRONG!

The current image is totally wrong, because it shows only turks who lived in 20th and 19th century, but Turkish history started much earlier and there were already Turks before the 19th century.

Some say above that there are too few women and others say too much sultans, but you can't change the history! Turkish women didn't had a big influence on the Turkish history, Turkish men were more important and famous.

The greatest Turkish Ottoman sultans should be added because they changed the history of the Turks and the name of the Turks, they can't be ignored. Example Osman I was the founder of a big longlasting world empire you can't ignore him! Kanuni was feared by all Europeans the greatest Ottoman sultan, you can't ignore him either. Or Mehmed II the conqueror he conquered Constantinople. A very important city that almost wasn't taken before! Sultan Abdulhamid II should be added too because he made the empire strong again. I know those are too much sultans but those were one of the most important Turks. For example Sinan the architect of some big buidings (including the mosques of sultans) could be added too, he is not a sultan. In short Ottomans are also Turks and the Turkish nation was at is greatest during the Ottoman times. The first image is better!!!! The people in the current image are all after Ataturk, 'the modern turks'. I don't say do not add those people, but the sultans are far more important.

I think that the one who made the current image really hates Ottomans, sultans and muslims. :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.85.21.37 (talk) 10:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Well I think we should add a few sultans with good images. But stating that Turkish women have not contributed to Turkish histroy is completely absurd. We can maybe add two new rows; 1 'Ottoman' row and 1 'modern' row of people who are still living today. I support the view that we should have an equal number of men and women. Regards. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 17:17, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

What is the point?

What is the point in having a section for Architecture, Arts and calligraphy, Music and Literature? What has this got to do with the Turkish ethnicity? Surely it should not be in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.152.115.109 (talk) 21:39, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

About That Info Box

Please. Whoever is editing the infobox, stop deleting the estimates for Turks in the United States. A couple of quoted online sources are given for the 500,000 number. They are online local history encyclopedias not providing references for those figures, but fine let's let them stand. But the 190,000 self-identified Turks in America figure is from the American Community Survey, which is run by the US Census bureau. *Please* leave that figure to at least let the readers decide between the two estimates. Deleting verified and sourced information because you dislike it is dishonest and violates quite a few wiki principles. Thanks.Konchevnik81 (talk) 20:42, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Well the 190,000 figure is already written in the footnotes anyway. We have to remember that thousands of Ahiska Turks have come to America in the last 5 years I doubt the US bureau has included them. Turco85 (Talk) 21:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Thousands? How many thousands? Source please. The 190,000 figure is from the US Census, which is ultra-reliable. There is no way it should be in the footnotes. Rather, it is the poorly sourced and dubious figure of 500,000 that should be in the footnotes. Athenean (talk) 21:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Ditto for Australia. The 2006 census [2] (download the excel worksheet) says 59,000 (and that includes those with ancestry, not just those born in Turkey), yet the article only uses a figure of 150,000, which is only casually mentioned once in passing in an article in the Sydney Morning Herald, without any explanation of what the figure includes and how it was obtained. Athenean (talk) 23:19, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh know here comes Athenean again trying to put the Turkish figures lower again! haha. You're one to talk when you keep an eye out for the figures in the Greek article. But if you do a google search you will find material of Ahiska Turkish migration- an estimated 15,000 recent migrants. I think the 2010 census (which will be published soon) would be considered 'ultra reliable' not this source. There are more references which gives an estimed 500,000 than the one reference which estimates 190,000.Turco85 (Talk) 10:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)