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[[User:Marcelus|Marcelus]] ([[User talk:Marcelus|talk]]) 19:21, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
[[User:Marcelus|Marcelus]] ([[User talk:Marcelus|talk]]) 19:21, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Cukrakalnis|Cukrakalnis]] what do you say to my proposal to use the standard from the [[Napoleone Bonaparte]] and [[Joseph Stalin]] articles? [[User:Marcelus|Marcelus]] ([[User talk:Marcelus|talk]]) 20:01, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:01, 9 January 2023

Fair use rationale for Image:Miestas.Preliudas.jpg

Image:Miestas.Preliudas.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Fantazija.Finale.jpg

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 07:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Fantazija.Fuga.jpg

Image:Fantazija.Fuga.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Fantazija.Preliudas.jpg

Image:Fantazija.Preliudas.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Vasara I.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Vasara II.jpg

Image:Vasara II.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Vasara III.jpg

Image:Vasara III.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth

Most sites now say he was born 10 September (os)/22 September (ns) 1875. But Slonimsky places it at 22 September (os)/4 October (ns). The date 10 April also appears in some refs, the 10/4 of 10 April being a transposition of 4 October’s 4/10, so these numbers seem to have some credibility. Are we certain that he was born 10 September under the Julian calendar, and not 22 September? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Information from the Lietuvių (Lithuanian(?!)) Wiki-entry

The Lithuaninan (I guess) wiki-entry has some info this ine is lacking, if someone who speaks lithuanian could transfer that info it would be great.

--83.248.239.86 (talk) 21:55, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling of first name.

This article spells Ciurlionis's first name as "Mikalojus"; but I have seen the variant "Mikolajus" (exchanging the "o" and "a"). Is there any basis for this? Is it one of those things that cannot be resolved, or is a reason known for the wrong version (whichever that is)? Just wondering. M.J.E. (talk) 12:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Surely, "Mikalojus" and "Mikolajus" has nothing in common by spelling in Lithuanian language, so "Mikolajus" is some kinda mistake I guess. By spelling its similar to russian "Николай" (in Lithuanian "Nikolajus") and could be mistaken.

Name and nationality

To prevent future edit warring. Majority of sources describe him as Lithuanian and use his Lithuanian name. Here's a recent Polish source, whose title should make things quite clear. Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis: litewski malarz i kompozytor. Muzeum Śląskie. 2006. ISBN 978-83-60353-24-0. Retrieved 31 August 2012. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:02, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There doesn't seem to be any doubt that the Lithuanian version of his name is Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis. Sca (talk) 21:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mass removal of artwork

Now Sca this edit is simply this close || to qualify for vandalism. I imagine also that Lotje pic that up by watching my page and decided to remove circa 70 % of the works. Do me a favor Lotje, stop watching my page. Hafspajen (talk) 17:45, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Per WP:IG: ON English Wikipedia the galleries are NOT discouraged for quite a while. Like since 2009. Please see also this discussion here, Talk:Charles Marion Russell. It is standard actually to have galleries, so please don't remove them. Images in the gallery collectively do have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Galleries are not discouraged. See also Rembrandt, just look at that gallery. The same for using image size larger than thumb, exception from the general rule is most art and art related articles that they do fall into this category. Hafspajen (talk) 18:08, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is sad, rules to change all the time, difficult for me to keep up, but what a heck! Lotje (talk) 19:40, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The editors who put together this page in 2014 had good reason for including extensive illustrations. To the meager extent that he has been known in the West, Čiurlionis was known primarily as a composer; as an artist, not much. Our presentation is designed to correct that deficiency, and to show how his visionary artistic style complements his ethereal music. Sca (talk) 21:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also this edit here, on a Dutch article... from 10 March 2015 with edit notice - (can anyone stop Haspajen with his stupid galleries? cant he contribute in positive manner by writing something intelligent?) - well, I know only about two people currently agains galleries, and serial-removing galleries -one is Lotje, a Dutch editor, who we had this discussion a couple of times and she still removes them when she can, the other is a French guy. Hafspajen (talk) 23:27, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

File:Mikalojus Konstantinas Ciurlionis - FAIRY TALE (FAIRY TALE OF KINGS) - 1909.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Mikalojus Konstantinas Ciurlionis - FAIRY TALE (FAIRY TALE OF KINGS) - 1909.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on September 12, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-09-11. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Kings' Fairy Tale
Kings' Fairy Tale, a painting by the Lithuanian painter, composer, and writer Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis (1875–1911) completed in 1908–1909. During his lifetime, Čiurlionis created about 300 paintings, composed about 400 pieces of music, and wrote many literary works and poems. Considered representative of the fin de siècle epoch, he contributed to the symbolism and art nouveau movements.Painting: Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis
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File:Mikalojus Konstantinas Ciurlionis - DAY - 1904 - 5, Varsuva.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Mikalojus Konstantinas Ciurlionis - DAY - 1904 - 5, Varsuva.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 3, 2018. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2018-06-03. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:02, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Day
A Day (1904), a painting by the Lithuanian artist and composer Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis (1875–1911). Čiurlionis contributed to symbolism and art nouveau and was representative of the fin de siècle epoch. He has been considered a pioneer of abstract art in Europe. During his short life, he composed about 400 pieces of music and created about 300 paintings. The majority of his paintings are held by the M. K. Čiurlionis National Art Museum in Kaunas, Lithuania.Painting: Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis
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Musical works on Spotify

Are all those in-line links to Spotify really allowed?? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To add to article

To add to this article: at least a few words describing the general style of this composer's music. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 01:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Czurlanis

I see no reliable references that mention this surname. Please do not remove citations tag until a reference is provided. Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Marcelus in his reverting edit summary wrote "not needed here, in the article it's explained that he was born into Polish family" - Well, he was NOT born to Polish family. What is more, at this time the area was part of the Russian Empire and under enforced Russification. So whatever official birth documents he had, they were in Russian. Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 20:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's the name he was using in Polish, and that's how Poles were calling him: see Marcelus (talk) 23:26, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please add this reference to the article. Why it so hard to follow the rules? Sheesh!Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 23:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need for thousands of reference to easily verifable facts, especially in the lead Marcelus (talk) 07:37, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Čiurlionis was a Lithuanian but a native Polish speaker so I do not see why you need a ref. Merangs (talk) 22:53, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You don't see, but I do see. We cannot have unreferenced information in Wikipedia. Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 23:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also Czurlanis in not a Polish version from Lithuanian and it does not sound Polish at all, but it is a calque from Russian Чурлянис . Polish construction would be Czurlon, like Giedraitis -> Giedroyć.
Since it is a nontrivial rendering change of a rare name, it does require a reference. Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 00:08, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a calque of Russian. There is a plenty Polish-Lithuanian names that sounds like this: Staniszkis, Januszajtis and so on Marcelus (talk) 07:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

3O Response: Please add the reference. Per WP:Verifiability, any material that is challenged needs an inline citation to a reliable source. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian name

@Cukrakalnis So you are planning to add Russian name to every single Lithuanian, Polish, Georgian etc. figure that was born in Russian Empire? Do you think that's reasonable? I only added Polish version of Čiurlionis names because he was born in a Polish-speaking family and was using that name in his youth. That's literally in every single biography of his, he only later learned Lithuanian etc. Marcelus (talk) 16:15, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you imagining things that no one ever said? I never said that I planned to add a russified name to all ethnically non-Russian citizens of the Russian Empire. However, adding such names is useful in helping people to find more information about that person in that other language. I don't understand why you are telling me why you added his polonized name to this article, because I was not removing it from the WP:LEDE. I don't understand why you are making such a big deal out of it. Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis I already said what I think: you are actively trying to hide the Polish name Čiurlionis. And don't say you didn't remove it from the lead because you did that, pushing it down to the references Marcelus (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis - Remember what you just said above -->..However, adding such names is useful in helping people to find more information about that person in that other language.
I’ll keep that in my records 😉🤷‍♀️ - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus is lying. The Polish name was always in the WP:LEDE and I never once removed it from there: [2], [3], [4]. Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis Well, let’s see... the Polish name disappeared from the lead after your edit here. Let me look again... let’s check again. Nope. Not there, the name is gone from the lead, it was pushed down the pipe into ref. link. So? What happened? 🙂 - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:38, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A note in WP:LEDE is part of WP:LEDE. I did not make any names disappear, it's Marcelus that keeps removing non-Polish names. Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:44, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis How about making the Polish name re-appear and be clearly visible in the lead first and then we’ll move to the Russian name issue? Fair? - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:56, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unfair. There is zero reason why an Efn of other lang templates cannot be used in Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis, but can be used on articles about Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte and Joseph Stalin. I refuse to submit to Marcelus' WP:Bullying - he has repeatedly WP:STRAWMANed my words and arguments, accusing me of things I did not do and of saying things I never said. Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis Zero reason? 😉 - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, 🤫, let’s try to solve this - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:21, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus why not keep the Russian name also? GizzyCatBella🍁 17:22, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella Adding a Russian name does nothing here. We don't do it for the hundreds of other characters who lived in the Russian Empire but were not Russian. Čiurlionis's biography is divided into two periods in terms of national identification and the language of everyday life. Early youth, when brought up in Polish culture and language, he felt Polish. And also the later period when, under the influence of the Lithuanian national revival, he became an ardent Lithuanian patriot. Still in 1901, he wrote to a friend: “We should be proud to be Poles […]. Our land, our freedom, our rights have been taken away, but our speech, our hearts, our intelligence will not be taken from us even by force. Moreover, Čiurlionis was a talented man of letters and wrote only in Polish. This does not mean that I want to make him a Pole by force. But it does not mean that his connection to Polish culture or the fact of using a Polish-sounding name should be hidden. Marcelus (talk) 18:44, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But he was born in the Russian Empire? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus Yeah, you are right. He was born in Stare Orany .. yea, the Russian name can go. - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:08, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But let’s see what Cukrakalnis has to say. Should Russian name stay or go? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I say that it should stay because Čiurlionis was born and died within the Empire of Russia. After all, post-1865 Congress Poland was a part of that Empire. Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:28, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella Yes, he was born in Russian Empire, because most of Lithuania was under Russian rule. But that's the case for hunderds of other figures. Marcelus (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What's the relevance of a Polish name to a Lithuanian who was born in Lithuania and lived in Prussia? Should we add a Polish name to the article about Alexander the Great because there are books where he is called Aleksander Macedoński? Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Was Lithuania and Poland once a great single country? Maybe that’s why? 😉 - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:30, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Martynas Mažvydas died in 1563, which is 6 years before the Union of Lublin in 1569, so the PLC is literally irrelevant when talking about him. Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:32, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
o yeah? Okay, let’s see... he spent his youth in Vilnius... lets check the history of that city.. hmn 🤔:
In 1387, Jogaila acting as a Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland, granted Magdeburg rights to the city. The city underwent a period of expansion in the 16th century. The Wall of Vilnius was built for protection between 1503 and 1522, comprising nine city gates and three towers, and in 1547 Sigismund II Augustus moved his court from Kraków to Vilnius.
hmm... no connection to Poland? Are you sure about that Cukrakalnis 🤔🙂 - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:48, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. So now lets check the Prussia connection to Poland during his life-time...hmn.. ruled by Poland see Polnisch-Preußen..🤔 - so? Still no connection? Should I continue? - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:54, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Martynas Mažvydas left Vilnius in 1546, a year before Sigismund II Augustus moved his court from Krakow to Vilnius (temporarily).
You still haven't answered my question why a lang-pl name is relevant to Martynas Mažvydas. Did he publish any Polish books? No.
Is he known to have spoken Polish? Yeah, but he also spoke Latin, Ruthenian and German. So, clearly, there is no reason to add a Polish name to a person simply because he spoke Polish, anymore than it is to add a Latin, Ruthenian and German names to that same person.
As for Ducal Prussia, I inform you that four out of five articles about the Dukes of Prussia don't have a lang-pl template: Frederick I of Prussia, George William, Elector of Brandenburg, Frederick William, Elector of Brandenburg and Albert, Duke of Prussia. So, there is no reason to add Polish names to a person because that person lived in Prussia.
Please, @GizzyCatBella, please tell me why we should put a Polish name in the article of a Lithuanian who is totally irrelevant for Poles. Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:02, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis but adding the Polish version of his name does’t make him Polish. He is still a pure Lithuanian. I showed you the connection to Poland above... and as you just said here earlier - adding such names is useful in helping people to find more information about that person in that other language. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:08, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never said that adding a Polish name to a person makes them Polish 😉 The article on pl.wiki is literally Martynas Mažvydas. Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:13, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis @GizzyCatBella I added Polish version of Mažvydas name, because he was translator from Polish to Lithuanian, his Catechismus is largely translation of Polish book of Jan Seklucjan. He also translated Polish songs written by Jurgis Zablockis/Jerzy Zabłocki. By the number of polonisms in his writing it is assumed that his Polish was actually better than Lithuanian. According to Jurgis Gerullis he was educated in Polish school. There is also the thing mentioned by @GizzyCatBella of Prussia being part of Poland. That was my reasoning Marcelus (talk) 18:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There you go.. crystal clear to me. Thank you @Marcelus - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:32, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Putting people's names into Efn is not hiding them - it's standard practice on Wikipedia: see the articles Joseph Stalin, Napoleon Bonaparte and Alexander the Great. Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:28, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't fully correct. Aleksander the Great has his Ancient Greek name in parentheses, Napoleon has his Anglicised name and the birth name in the lead, Joseph Stalin has his Anglicised and birth, Georgian name in the lead. But overall these aren't good examples because these are three well-known figures, that have grounded in the literature English variants of their names. It's not the case with Čiurlionis. Marcelus (talk) 18:35, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus, which part of the phrase Putting people's names into Efn is not hiding them - it's standard practice on Wikipedia: see the articles Joseph Stalin, Napoleon Bonaparte and Alexander the Great. "isn't fully correct", according to you? By the way, Čiurlionis is the primary name used in English sources, so it's actually a good example. Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:43, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis I already answered this question. Čiurlionis is Lithuanian form of his name that is used in English literature, names such as Alexander the Great, Joseph Stalin, Napoleon Bonaparte are Anglicised forms (not Iosif, but Joseph etc.) Marcelus (talk) 18:48, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, do I have news for you 😃 Putting people's foreign-language names into Efn is not *hiding* them and including these names into an Efn is standard practice throughout Wikipedia. Seems like you're the incorrect one here, mister 😉 Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:56, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They are certainly hided, because they are less visible. It's certainly not a standard (maybe you invented it?), and even your three examples aren't proves of that, because as I showed to you alternative variants of the names are still visible in the leads of these articles. Marcelus (talk) 19:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus - Mikalojus Čiurlionis (he did not use this version of the name, because it was created several decades after his death) did not know Lithuanian, and his native language was Polish. He kept diaries in Polish throughout his life, all of his literary work was written in Polish, as well as most of his letters. Is this true? GizzyCatBella🍁 19:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
his works were written in Polish but has been published in Lithuanian 🤦🏻‍♀️ Another case of the Polish-Lithianian identity. We are never going to escape from the issue, are we? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Although now known as an advocate of Lithuanian nationalism, Čiurlionis began his life in rather different circumstances. He was born in Senoji Varėna, a town now in southeastern Lithuania but then part of the Russian Empire; as was customary for educated Lithuanians at the time, his family spoke only Polish. - 🤦🏻‍♀️ GizzyCatBella🍁 19:30, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At the bottom it says: "All the information in this post was derived from Wikipedia and from Ciurlionis’s “official website” at http://ciurlionis.eu/en/music/." Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:35, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So did his family speak Polish or no? Lets see...
@Cukrakalnis should i continue or that’s satisfactory? 🙂 - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:42, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was pointing that out because WP:REFLOOP. I reiterate, I never removed the lang-pl template from the article or the WP:LEDE. After all, a note in the lede is still in the lede. It's just that Marcelus and you are very opposed to putting two lang templates into an Efn, which you both misinterpret as a removal of the lang-pl template, which is objectively false. Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He certainly was writing only in Polish, that's for sure, he started to learn Lithuanian only in 1907 and never felt fluent enough to write in it, especially poetry. But he died in 1911 so it's understandable. As for his name, I'm not sure Marcelus (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They are certainly not hidden (definition: not easy to find). Having to move a cursor a few pixels to the top-right corner of a person's name in the first sentence is by no means not easy to find. Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no excuse whatsoever to push the Polish version of his name into obscurity, so it is not visible in the lede anymore. - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:35, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A note in WP:LEDE *is* part of WP:LEDE. Putting a name into an Efn, just like it is done in so many other articles, is not "pushing his name into obscurity". Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on Efn in Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis

In Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis, there is a dispute about using the Template:Efn for foreign-language names (Russian and Polish). I justify this move by pointing to articles where that is already the case: Joseph Stalin (Russian and Georgian names are in Efn), Napoleon Bonaparte (French, Italian and Corsican names are in Efn), etc. Two users, @GizzyCatBella and @Marcelus, are against this and insist on removing the Efn. One of the users, Marcelus, accuses me of trying to "hide" Čiurlionis' Polish name ([5]), while simultaneously removing the Russian name ([6], [7]). Should the foreign-language names be put in an Efn or not? Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Related discussion 0.5 second scroll time above. - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:03, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is probably one of the least honest RfCs I've ever read. It is worth adding what I already wrote to the author of the RfC in the discussion above, but he chose to omit it, that even in the examples he gave, the alternative forms of names, namely what the character was born under, are given in the main part of the article. And Template:Efn contains only additional information that would overly stretch the lead of the article (e.g. spelling Stalin's name in Cyrillic and Georgian). It's also not a standard as Cukrakalnis suggests, just a notation used in the few articles he could find (the third Alexander the Great was dropped, apparently because it didn't fit the narrative). Moreover, the Russian form that I removed, Cukrakalnis added today, just to have an excuse to transfer the Polish form of the name Čiurlionis to the reference.

As I wrote in the discussion above: adding a Russian name does nothing here. We don't do it for the hundreds of other characters who lived in the Russian Empire but were not Russian. Čiurlionis's biography is divided into two periods in terms of national identification and the language of everyday life. Early youth, when brought up in Polish culture and language, he felt Polish. And also the later period when, under the influence of the Lithuanian national revival, he became an ardent Lithuanian patriot. Still in 1901, he wrote to a friend: “We should be proud to be Poles […]. Our land, our freedom, our rights have been taken away, but our speech, our hearts, our intelligence will not be taken from us even by force". Moreover, Čiurlionis was a talented man of letters and wrote only in Polish. This does not mean that I want to make him a Pole by force. But it does not mean that his connection to Polish culture or the fact of using a Polish-sounding name should be hidden.

As a matter of fact if Cukrakalnis wants to use standard set by the Napoleon Bonaparte and Joseph Stalin then the article lead should look like this:

Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis[a] (born Mikołaj Konstanty Czurlanis; 22 September [O.S. 10 September] 1875 – 10 April [O.S. 28 March] 1911) was a Lithuanian painter, composer and writer in Polish.

Marcelus (talk) 19:21, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Cukrakalnis what do you say to my proposal to use the standard from the Napoleone Bonaparte and Joseph Stalin articles? Marcelus (talk) 20:01, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]


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