Talk:War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)

Typos

The picture of the Chinook helicopter mistakenly refers to "USAF pilots." The US Air Force does not have pilots for the Chinook. They're "US Army pilots," as the citation notes.

First paragraph, last sentence "andwas" appears as one word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.60.35.95 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 19 June 2013

Under Casualties and Losses on right hand side "but reports suggest a higher number compared to coalition forces" may read better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.170.91.1 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 20 March 2014

"2001: Overthrow of the Taliban" - boming should be bombing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.183.22.30 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 9 May 2014

Map of current military situation

The map of the current military situation in Afghanistan is over a year old. I know that not that much has changed since then, but it would be nice if someone could upload a new one and make that reflected in the caption. I'd do it myself except I have no idea how. Thanks. Display name 99 (talk) 02:44, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

I second this request, what is going on in the country? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Someone working for someone probably removed this one https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Taliban_insurgency_in_Afghanistan_(2015–present).svg to lessen the negative PR impact of their forces withdrawing after a 20 year conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.137.44 (talk) 09:42, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

End of the war

Various sources are reporting the 18 years war has ended after the truce was signed with Talibans on February 29, and now troops are just being withdrawn: [1], [2], [3] , [4] and so many more. According to sources any further actions by Talibans would be insurgency but the war itself has ended with the February 29 deal. Well just pointing out, not an editor of this article so its upto editors of this article to decide. Dilbaggg (talk) 08:30, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

The withdrawal has begun, but I'd say the war is ongoing at least until all coalition forces have left Afghanistan. Even then, Taliban and ANDSF may continue to fight. --Cerebellum (talk) 15:22, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

In that case it will be civil war/insurgency. But the international war should be over with foreign troops withdrawal, like the Iraq war (2003-2011), Soviet-Afghan war (1979-1989), etc. Dilbaggg (talk) 04:36, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Hmm I see what you're saying, make sense. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:38, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with much of this The conflict ended for Western forces as far back as 2014 when Resolute Support became the new mission (Advise, Train, Assist). Combat missions officially at that point. Since then its been only minor involvement from Western forces. It has been a largely Afghan Government vs Taliban/Insurgency/Opposition conflict for many years now

Njofallofall (talk) 06:24, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

The sentence: "Since 2001, Afghanistan has experienced improvements in health, education and women's rights" should be removed from the introduction as soon as possible, given the Taliban takeover of the country. Ending the introduction with the statement that more than 6 million Afghans are internal or external refugees is much more appropriate.

Allied losses

Total dead in the infobox for Allied casualties should be 73,925+. I did the math. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:1D2:DEEE:5BB6:814A (talk) 17:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

If you have done it then edit it. No one pay heeds to everything on talk page. Khalidwarrior (talk) 03:42, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Taliban losses?

There are of course no real estimates of Taliban losses. However, there are various sources that have compiled different numbers for different periods. None of them are truly cohesive though

The Watson Institute for example, undercounts Taliban losses. and I will provide reasons as to why that is the case...

take for example the 2016 Estimate https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2016/War%20in%20Afghanistan%20and%20Pakistan%20UPDATE_FINAL_corrected%20date.pdf

This gives a tally 42,100

if we also take the 2019 Estimate https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2019/Direct%20War%20Deaths%20COW%20Estimate%20November%2013%202019%20FINAL.pdf

You will notice that the tally of 42,100 is also used.

The Newest estimate (Which is used within both the Taliban Insurgency, and War in Afghanistan article) give the new estimate of 51,191

Which only incorporates 2 separate 4 month reporting periods for the Ministry of Defense as stated within the source https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/figures/2021/Human%20and%20Budgetary%20Costs%20of%20Afghan%20War%2C%202001-2021.pdf "From July 1 through November 5, 2019, Afghan National Defense Forces reported killing 10,259 militants/insurgents/terrorists and reported killing 10,091 from 6 November to 13 April 2021"

This is a clear undercount, simply considering even from 2016-2019 there were no additions. Within the 2014 version, they admit that any estimates are likely undercounted, and no records are actually kept https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2015/War%20Related%20Casualties%20Afghanistan%20and%20Pakistan%202001-2014%20FIN.pdf

However, I would like to highlight that various sources do give Taliban losses for certain periods of time For example, the "Taliban at War: 2001-2018" specifically page 261 by Antonio Guistozzi gives yearly totals (according to Al Somud) from 2002-2016 (omitting 2013) Overall, we can see nearly 80,000 Taliban deaths during that reporting period.

On top of this, the Ministry of Defense has at times given yearly totals, or various seasonal estimates Take for example this article https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/officials-count-around-30000-war-dead-afghanistan-year Which states in the year 2016, there were 30,000 deaths in the Afghan War, 18,500 of them Taliban Also various reports from the MOD can be found here https://mod.gov.af/en/press-release or also the Twitter account (which tends to be updated more often) https://twitter.com/MoDAfghanistan We see that in this month (June) alone so far over 1,300 Taliban have been killed in ANDSF operations?

I think it would be interesting to incorporate these numbers because as I highlighted above.. the Watson study is very flawed (at least in regards to Taliban figures) However, I am unsure about how to do that They could very quickly increase the Taliban fatalities of the war well over 100,000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Njofallofall (talk • contribs) 05:51, 11 June 2021 (UTC) Njofallofall (talk) 05:57, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

In Regards to Afghanistan territorial control map. How can we define it as accurate or impartial?

I add this information also in the Taliban Insurgency page (and Taliban insurgency detailed map page), but I found it relevant here. In this case, I am speaking specifically to the map that comes from the "Taliban Insurgency detailed map" page which can be seen in the section for 2019 in the War in Afghanistan article

Going through the edit sections of this map I have noticed that there has been a heavy reliance on a singular source for the updates? Specifically, an anonymous Twitter account by the name of "RisboLensky" Which seems to be quite a questionable source? (Especially given the accounts political takes on certain issues which seems to be the opposite of impartial).

The fact of territorial control is that it is a contested issue (and often confused as to what "Control" means). There are various sources that give different standards Some of them clearly being Pro-Taliban, and others clearly being Pro-Afghan Government. ^ both of which are sources upon themselves. Each claiming to control the majority of the country.

Various other outsider sources apply different standards, and have come to different conclusions. (Which clearly at times can be debatable to the methodology)

For example, https://www.longwarjournal.org/mapping-taliban-control-in-afghanistan Which applied would give a completely different map lays out a methodology (though a questionable one) that deals with issues

Or perhaps the SIGAR reports (which will return in June) https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/quarterlyreports/2021-04-30qr-section2-security.pdf <-- as you can see it will return to reporting territorial control the last territorial control report was this one https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/quarterlyreports/2018-10-30qr.pdf None the less it will be returning, and will likely provide a different answer IF I supplied the SIGAR map of June 2021, will that then be added and updated to this map?????

There are also other sources that compile claims such as https://afghanistan.liveuamap.com/ which also highlights territorial control or various other sources that give completely different stats https://feminist.org/our-work/afghan-women-and-girls/taliban-controls-3-of-afghanistan/ ^ older of course, and I dont mean for you to use it.. but an example of how "Control" can be used to develop narrative as opposed to reality.

The List is honestly quite endless... and I am curious why we should take this map seriously when it seems to rely heavily on an anonymous twitter account? which absolutely discounts MOD reports https://mod.gov.af/en/press-release and seems to have a great deal of personal bias on certain issues JUST A few examples from the past couple of days......... proving it lacks impartiality and clearly has a lean on this issue.

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397834662492479490

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397901353268228096

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397816361850748929

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397463526810210306

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397459159650557954

These are just from the last couple of days, and random ones I could find These are not the comments of an impartial source. RisboLensky has a clear Taliban leaning, and is far more likely to report their claims. While ignoring other claims, and highlighting their own political views ^ this is what I have noticed while going through the claims, though I could be wrong.

So I ask Why are the majority of updates on this page of a singular anonymous twitter account?

This account is used as a source well over 700 times, since October 2018 which in that period saw only slightly above 1,000 separate edits. It makes up the vast majority of claims??????

While all other sources (which give completely different accounts) are completely ignored? Why is this? TRULY Why is an anonymous twitter account with 7,000 subscribers and a self claimed "Marshal and all inclusive, comprehensive and verified troll. Polytheist magician" the very basis of this map???

I find it very silly. Njofallofall (talk) 06:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Njofallofall - The map is out of date anyway since it hasn't been updated since 2019. I agree that if the map is sourced to anonymous Twitter comments then it is not reliably sourced. Time to delete it. FOARP (talk) 09:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

FOARP - Thank You so much for taking the time to deal with this.

Sadly, the same map is still used on this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_insurgency and as you can see from the edit history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Module:Taliban_insurgency_detailed_map&limit=500&action=history This anonymous Twitter account is STILL used as the main source for updating this map. There are plenty of more reliable sources that can be used (Some of which I have labeled up above). Njofallofall (talk) 04:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Muttawakil's supposed unconditional offer to hand offer Bin Laden over

I've struck the section discussing this. The only source is IPS which is not an established news service, but instead an NGO. Even taking the source at face-value, this appears to be reporting of how Muttawikil himself described what happened ten years after the fact, and is not corroborated by any other source. FOARP (talk) 09:39, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Result (as of 30 June 2021)

The result should be "Withdrawal of U.S and their allied forces from Afghanistan" instead of "Withdrawal of U.S forces from Afghanistan". Yamato Bismarck Hood Iowa (talk) 07:15, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Given the sole victory condition for US and Allies was complete destruction of the Taliban, we should think about posting it as Taliban Victory. They have endured and seen America and Allies driven out. Taliban win.

The war continues and although the Taliban are gaining ground they haven't won. Other countries & private military companies could join to support the Afghan government. Jim Michael (talk) 15:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

We can't base a wiki article on things that could happen, only on what has happened. Furthermore, any private military contractors conducting what would amount to illegal non-state actor action would be acts of terrorism, not war. The Taliban have driven America out, and the sole victory condition America and NATO allies attached to their combat operations was the destruction of the Taliban. The Taliban have won, and America has lost another landwar in Asia.

It would be legal for the Afghan gov to hire PMCs - many countries have done so in various wars. Unlike the Taliban, PMCs aren't categorised as designated terrorist groups. Jim Michael (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

How could you say the war is over just because an actor pulled out? The Afghan government still exists and is still fighting the Taliban. There are also other militias who oppose the Taliban for one reason or another that are still fighting too. Wowzers122 (talk) 22:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

From the look of things, the Taliban have consolidated control over 3/4s of Afghanistan, essentially being restored to their 1996 extent of territorial control. Most of the government enclaves are isolated and besieged. Would say that’s probably significant to the outcome of the war: that a belligerent reversed near all the coalition gains before the withdrawal is even over. Perhaps it’s worth noting in the results that most of Afghanistan is under Taliban control.131.96.223.33 (talk) 19:55, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Told you so. What reason for not calling it a Western Defeat now? The lengths people will go to to try and not admit America just had another humiliating military defeat in Asia. It is literally begging the Taliban not to attack as it runs away. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/14/afghanistan-taliban-advance-humanitarian/

That's not how Wikipedia works. It's not for us to decide, we wait until reliable sources start describing it as such. — Czello 13:36, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

It was over weeks ago, the removal of US forces and personnel should go in the aftermath section. Reliable sources, including the American Government itself with its surrender and withdrawal agreement by Trump, all admitted so. Wikipedia's mission should not include protecting the egos of American editors who just don't want to admit losing. However, this article needs to be changed to reflect the final loss and rout of America and we can close out the war in Afghanistan conflict as ending today, August 15th 2021.

If you want to provide some sources that declare the war is over, go ahead. — Czello 18:51, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Operation Haymaker

Article needed: Operation Haymaker. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:01, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 15 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jack Frost (talk) 10:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

---

War in Afghanistan (2001–present) → Afghanistan War (2001–present) – I have two reasons for this move. First, Afghanistan War has 384 million Google hits, and War in Afghanistan has only 304 million, so WP:COMMONNAME applies here. Second, Afghanistan War is shorter and easier to type. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 10:05, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Google hits are a poor metric for determing the common name, and 384m vs 304m is not a very significant difference. Both NGrams and a quick look at the article's references show that the common name is indeed War in Afghanistan. It's also already sufficiently concise. Lennart97 (talk) 17:10, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose If you use quotation marks in your google search you will get 17 million results for "War in Afghanistan", and about 2 million for "Afghanistan War". My preferred title is actually Afghan War but that also has only 2 million results. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:23, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose It could result in confusion with the Afghanistan conflict (1978–present)ImperatorPanda (talk) 13:46, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. I'm sorry but calling it "Afghanistan War" is an extremely biased name from an American perspective (we need something neutral for an international audience). The ex-Soviets for example call the Soviet-Afghan War also as "Afghanistan War". And then on top of that there are the Civil Wars (1989-2001) which further confuses matters. --Weaveravel (talk) 15:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
  • The 2001–present part disambiguates it. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 10:04, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Drug trade photos

I think it's over the top to have three consecutive images about opium production in this section. One image should suffice. GreenCows (talk) 20:29, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Done! --Cerebellum (talk) 09:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 August 2021

Update it with the current actions from coalition forces such as the United States and United Kingdom such as evacuating others. Blazefuse (talk) 18:21, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. (pinging Blazefuse) — Lauritz Thomsen (talk) 19:00, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Imminent Taliban victory

It now seems clear that the Taliban will conquer the entire country by the end of the week, what would suffice in order to change "Result" to "Taliban victory" in the infobox? If we have major international newspapers like the New York Times putting it on the front page, would that be enough? --RaphaelQS (talk) 09:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• While there will certainly be continued fighting even after final surrender of the IRA government -- not unlike the last time the Taliban took over in '96 -- I would support (assuming RS report it) putting a pin on this article by crediting it as a Taliban victory (again, assuming RS report it thusly) and then starting a fresh article "War in Afghanistan (2021–present)" to cover the ensuing conflict. The belligerents infobox will get too confusing and cluttered otherwise. Chetsford (talk) 09:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• • Who said there will be a protracted conflict though? Let’s just wait for the coming events and see what happens. ArabMan719 (talk) 11:32, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

This is a conflict which has concluded with the end of the Kabul regime which occurred today. Therefore rename the article appropriately.SAMBLAman (talk) 13:50, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Not yet. There are thousands of American troops still there, even if their purpose is just to protect the evacuation. And the Taliban has not yet taken control of Kabul or of the organs of government. It's true that everyone seems to think that is inevitable, but it's not a RESULT from Wikipedia's point of view until it actually happens. If one sports team has a huge or insurmountable lead in a game, do we declare the result in our article before the game actually ends? -- MelanieN (talk) 18:21, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps we should wait till the evacuation is finished, but all major cities including Kabul and its palace are in Taliban hands, the Taliban is about to declare an emirate, and what’s left of the Afghan government that hasn’t gone into exile is negotiating surrenders. It seems to be a textbook case of debellatio. I would recommend using the Soviet–Afghan War as a frame of reference and adopting the result of “NATO failure and Afghan Taliban victory”. Certainly with the Taliban conquest of the country and destruction of the Afghan government prior NATO’s withdrawal, it would seem to be what the overwhelming majority of reliable sources say.Freepsbane (talk) 22:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban took control of the presidential palace and are sitting in the president's chair (and the president fled the country), which has been widely covered by the news media. What more is needed to declare this a Taliban victory? Someone Not Awful (talk) 01:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The entire war should not be listed as a Taliban victory, it should be listed as satus quo ante bellum. The Taliban conquered no American soil or extracted any unilateral concessions from the American government in a peace. The Taliban is in power as it was in 2001. This is a return to the status prior to the war.

Requested move 15 August 2021

War in Afghanistan (2001–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) – We don't know how the future will be, but the war we knew, the one started in 2001, is over. The history of Afghanistan is not over, and there may be new wars in the future, but I think this one should be closed. Theklan (talk) 17:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC) -Theklan (talk) 17:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support An unbiased conclusion will be to update the article as a war ending August 2021.- Wcnn (talk)
• Oppose until reliable sources start saying this war is over. — Czello 17:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Wikipedia is not a news ticker, we can and will wait. The war was/is said by some sources to have formally ended in 2014 but it de-facto didn't. Wait for reliable sources to state the end of the war, no need to be overzealous with title moves as of now. Gotitbro (talk) 17:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support I mean, If Afghan Civil War (1992–1996) ended with the Fall of Kabul (1996), so should this. Mausebru the Peruvian (talk, contibs) 18:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support This is the end of the American invasion/occupation phase of the war, and any continuing war would best be suited for a War in Afghansitan (2021–present) article. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 19:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support regardless of whether you go by the formal United States withdrawal or the military situation on the ground both have an end date of this month. Like the previous civil wars any future conflict will take place in a different context of an IEA/Taliban controlled Afghanistan Apache287 (talk) 19:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support It's Joever. - 2A0E:1C80:5:0:0:0:0:226 (talk) 19:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support per users Serafart and Apache287 rationale. If there is a "next round", it will be in a completely different background.----Darius (talk) 19:36, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose There are U.S. troops in Kabul. This move is premature. Zoozaz1 talk 19:36, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  User:Zoozaz1, it's 2021 now. Do you think it is possible that the war will go until at least 2070?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  I am simply saying that it is not Wikipedia's business to predict the future. Zoozaz1 talk 20:22, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support on the basis that, regardless of the situation on the ground, either title [(2001-Present) or (2001-2021)] could potentially be factually correct between now and 31 December 2021. However, only one title [(2001-Present)] could potentially be factually wrong between now and 31 December 2021. If, on December 31, the war is still ongoing, we can move it back to 2001-Present because WP:WORKINPROGRESS. Chetsford (talk) 19:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  We shouldn't be deciding an article title based on what may or may not happen on December 31st, we should be deciding it on what is happening now, and right now the war is not over. Assigning an end date to it is simply incorrect. Zoozaz1 talk 21:28, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

As of right now, August 15, it is factual and correct to say (2001-2021) and -- regardless of what happens on the ground, whether the war is over or it's entering a new phase -- it will be factual and correct to title it that way for at least four months. The title (2001-2021) does not, nor will it, imply the war is over until 1 January 2022. Chetsford (talk) 01:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Saying 2001-2021 is technically correct, but in that case why wouldn't we have said 2001-2020 in 2020? Having a final date in the title certainly implies that is the end date, which it is not, as of the time I am writing this. Zoozaz1 talk 02:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Saying 2001-2021 is technically correct, but in that case why wouldn't we have said 2001-2020 in 2020? I have no objection to you retroactively making that change in the past. Chetsford (talk) 04:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support, the war in Afghanistan is over, and is being reported by the news as such. Aasim (talk) 05:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support The President of Afghanistan formally relinquished power to the Taliban and the Taliban has taken over Kabul. I see no reason to consider this war as ongoing. JackyTheChemosh (talk) 20:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support All of the resistance is gone and the country fell with negotiated peace preventing further insurgency by the government ArabMan719 (talk) 20:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support, largely per Serafart. Kuchi Kopi (talk) 21:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose let's wait for a consensus from the reliable sources. --RaphaelQS (talk) 21:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban have just announced the end of the war. Tarek lb (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support once all international forces leave the country. --Cerebellum (talk) 21:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Too soon. We still have troops and civilians including government officials there, our embassy is still operating, and the Taliban has not taken control of Kabul or of the government. Right now the war is still "the present". When we make an official announcement, or when Reliable Sources agree that it is over, then we will make the move (and we won't need an RM discussion to make it). -- MelanieN (talk) 21:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support The war, as a physical conflict, is over and has a defined outcome - the Taliban have succeeded in taking over the country. A new government is set to be imminently established as the country officially "changes hands". All rescue troops/leftover international personnel will have left the country within no more than a week in the best scenario possible. The Afghan army themselves have indisputably succumbed to the Taliban, who have themselves also declared the war as over. Accordingly, to claim that the war is still ongoing, would seem to be factually incorrect, or at the very least incorrect by the time any such title change to the article would take place. The end of the war need not be determined by an official announcement if it is already the reality. ArbDardh (talk) 21:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)ArbDardh

Support. The war is over. As of today Sunday, 15 August 2021 the Taliban have captured the capital of Kabul. We are no longer engaging in any battles, and our diplomats have evacuated. It’s over. Not to mention both sides have agreed that it will end this year and in this month. Cj7557 (talk) 21:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support: It is over. The only victory condition attached to the conflict was the eradication of the Taliban. That has not occurred, and Western forces have withdrawn. Taliban victory, Western Allies defeated.

• Support: The war is over. Even it didn't officially end, the Korean war didn't officially end either, yet the war ended. JayPlaysStuff (talk) 22:19, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Relevant Info: Sources are starting to report this as a victory for the Taliban/IEA forces or reporting uncontested their assertion of this.Apache287 (talk) 22:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support: If the conflict enters a new phase, make a new page for that. But it's clear that the current phase of the conflict, where the US and a US-backed state fight the Taliban, is over.

• Support It's over. The Taliban won. Godspeed. Pyramids09 (talk) 22:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose While the end result is clear, evacuations are ongoing and the U.S. has informed the Taliban that it will take military action in response to any attacks on evacuees. While unlikely, this is a possibility in the near future. While I agree the war is nearly over and this page should be moved soon, I don't believe it has met that bar quite yet. Caleb 1223 (talk) 23:32, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Strong Support Conflict will continue in Afghanistan, but the period of the American led intervention against the Taliban that began in 2001, and finally withdrew in 2021 marks the end of this phase of the conflict.--Caltraser5 (talk) 23:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support The New York Times, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal all describe the government of Afghanistan to have fallen. That there are still some forces there to help with the evacuation is not a continuation of the war. The war is over. (Narkstraws (talk) 23:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC))
• Oppose Per WP:NOTACRYSTALBALL, wait until reliable sources state it's end, fighting is still ongoing in pockets of Kabul, and no on knows what is going to happen. Des Vallee (talk) 00:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support There's still a war inasmuch as Ashraf Ghani is still a president. The war is over, and the Taliban won. Bigeyedbeansfromvenus (talk) 00:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support The conflict within the scope of this article is over, ending in a Taliban victory. Any future conflict is going to need its own article starting from the new paradigm. BSMRD (talk) 00:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NOTACRYSTALBALL and the ongoing fighting. We do not declare a war over until the sources say so. Scorpions13256 (talk) 00:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• ’ ‘ ‘ Support ‘ ‘ ‘ It’s pretty clear that the War is over, and it ended with the Taliban taking control of the Afghan government. The media does not declare the end of a war Dragonborn12255 (talk) 00:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• ‘ ‘ ‘ Support ‘ ‘ ‘ It’s pretty clear that the war is over, and it ended with the Taliban taking control of the Afghan government and the President going into exile. It isn’t a great idea to allow the media to be the ones who declare things like this Dragonborn12255 (talk) 01:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Striking duplicate vote codingcyclone ^{please ping}/_{my wreckage} 01:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support The Taliban won, even though it was through a US retreat. The result of the war is total Taliban control of the country. It can be spun as a "strategic withdraw" (as happened with the Vietnam War for decades) but that is ideological pedantry, not factual. Someone Not Awful (talk) 01:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support The Taliban won and now there's a transitional government being set up, while fighting may and will go on, they won't be the same forces as the begging of the war. I'd also support the creation of an article called "War in Afghanistan (2021–present)" to distinguish between ANA vs Taliban and whatever comes next.--Garmin21 (talk) 01:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support It's over, the Taliban won. While it's nice to think we can "take it back" and it's uncomfortable to think "What the Hell did they all die for?" when you look at the bodies, it's over. War in Afghanistan 2001-2021. The fight is over, these poor people are dead, let the ashes cool. It. Is. Over. --User:18-Till-I-Die (talk)

• Support: this stage of the war, involving the United States and Western allies, has ended. Any more conflicts should rightly open a new article. Though to be safe we can wait a few days until the handover of powers to the Taliban is complete. NoNews! 01:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support: I think that, with the collapse of the government and fall of Kabul, this war is clearly over. Taliban has won…. District9123 (talk) 02:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support: The Taliban has declared the war over, if you consider Al Jazerra a reliable source
• Comment It appears that USA Today and Al Jazeera have both announced the end of the war. If more sources do the same, I will strike my previous comment. Until then, I am off to bed. Scorpions13256 (talk) 02:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support: Joe Biden lost. He is hiding in his basement and CNN said he is expected to make a statement "in the next few days". He is having a mental breakdown, but wikipedia isn't Joe Bidens personal project, if he wants to admit it or not, doesn't matter. The Taliban took over the country and officially declared it over. Multiple media outlets did the same. 212.95.5.216 (talk) 02:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support: Pretty much all WP:RS say the war is over and the Taliban is victorious. Both parties claim the war is over. There will be an aftermath, of course, but that can be dealt as such in this article or a new one. Loganmac (talk) 02:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support: The country, while not at peace, certainly isn't currently in any equal war. Even if there's still lots of fighting (there will still be lots of fighting) it's most accurate to say that *this* phase of the war is concluded. NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 02:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The discussion and !votes here seem to be almost entirely about individual views on if the war in question is "over." While that is a perfectly fine discussion to have, that is not how Wikipedia determines page titles, or really any content. When it is clear that the majority of reliable sources are saying this, we should reflect that, but until then what everyone's view here about if they think the war is now over is not meaningful for this decision.--Yaksar (let's chat) 03:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: I'm with Yaksar. My personal beliefs aside, reliable sources haven't exactly claimed the end of the war, and, moreover, not all of the coalition troops have left yet. Think, for instance, of the Soviet–Afghan War, which we have lasting until Colonel-General Boris Gromov, the last Russian soldier, left Afghanistan, in 1989. Should we not also do the same here? — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 03:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Support Taliban declares 'war is over' as president and diplomats flee Kabul https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/talibans-rapid-advance-across-afghanistan-2021-08-10/ . Conflict may continue in Afghanistan, but the period of the American led intervention against the Taliban that began in 2001, and finally withdrew in 2021 marks the end of this phase of the conflict.Nafis Fuad Ayon (talk) 04:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support All of the parties on the side of the US-led invasion are in-exile, evacuated, evacuating, or no longer extant Benica11 (talk) 04:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Comment If the article is moved, there should be an en dash and not a hyphen in the title. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 04:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose (for now) per WP:NOTACRYSTALBALL. I suspect that in the next few weeks sources will agree that the war is over (I do). But events are moving quickly and this is still a current event. We can afford to wait until things are more certain. ErieSwiftByrd (talk) 04:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support Time to move on... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Support This war was mostly part of an American-led intervention during the global war on terror, with the historical repeat just like in 1975, it's no surprise that Afghanistan has become the new Vietnam of the world. 06:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC) AustroHungarian1867 (talk)

• Oppose for now At this point, there are still some pockets of Afghanistan that remain under government control, and the Taliban have not yet established a stable government. I have no doubt that this phase of the conflict, at least, will end in the coming days, but I would suggest waiting until the situation on the ground becomes a bit more clear. --LordNimon (talk) 05:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support The media reporting unanimously frames the war as over Nickelpro (talk) 06:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Hold on for a few days, then support. I think we have enough evidence and sources proclaiming that the war as we know it has ended: one of the two major combatants has virtually ceased to exist, either by surrendering (Afghan government) or withdrawing from the country (NATO forces, not counting the specific forces in the Kabul Airport which constitute a mere evac relief mission). Other conflicts resulting from the war's aftermath may ensue (an Afghan gov-led insurgency? Subsequent international interventions?), but those should be treated independently and analyzed in a case-by-case basis. This stage of the conflict is essentially over. Nonetheless, I think we should not rush the move and wait a little couple days out of prudency, but the timespan of this discussion will probably be enough for it. Impru20^talk 07:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support Kabul is back under Taliban control, the Afghan government has collapsed, the president has fled and after 20 years, America’s longest war is over. --Saqib (talk) 07:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support Islamic Republicans have fallen, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has been restored, Article 2021 Taliban offensive already mentions Taliban victory, Taliban insurgency article also states. Taliban officials said the war is over, I agree with them, there is no one in the Afghan region to lay down resistance or sought to form an alternative government.--Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk) 07:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2021

79.75.108.78 (talk) 18:49, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --Ferien (talk) 19:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Missing Biden statements

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X20mGH266r4

Last month Joe Biden made important statments like: - The Afghan troops have 300 thousand well equiped and trained soldiers and an airforce, while the Taliban have just 70 thousand - The Taliban will not take over Afghanistan - There is no chance. Zero. That it will be like Saigon. You will not see helicoters evacuating an US embassy

All of those statements made just a month ago. Currently this article is very partisan and just quotes of Biden get posted, sometimes out of context, that are strongly in his favor. For completition sake, all the statements that he made in his press conference a month ago should be included. If you need reliable sources, you just need to choose a random newspaper of your liking and see what they wrote about this conference. 212.95.5.216 (talk) 02:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree these need to be put in the article. Wikipedia has become far to partisan. Cj7557 (talk) 05:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

America is going home now. Biden's statements on Afghanistan haven't been this unimportant since Bill Clinton mattered. We should start trimming contradictory English rhetoric and needless partisan snippets, not adding more. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I would argue that these statements have a relevant historical value, as they highlight the position of US officials in contrast to the actual situation as it unfolded. The context surrounding these statements is a matter worth evaluating alongside the rest of the history of the War in Afghanistan. Jade Phoenix Pence (talk) 08:49, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Jade Phoenix Pence

Change the title to (2001-2021)

The box at the top right hand side says:

War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)

and in the article

> On 15 August 2021, the president of Afghanistan Ashraf Ghani fled the country and the Taliban declared victory and the war over.

But the title says (2001-present)