Talk:Demi Lovato

Demi Lovato

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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All the pronouns are plural eg. They instead of She 75.71.104.22 (talk) 10:19, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

That's because Lovato uses singular they. - Purplewowies (talk) 03:01, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

singular they is not grammatically correct when we are referring to a specific individual whom we know of; singular they's refer to people we are not sure of their identity - for example "someone left their car door open". Or, they refer to someone in context of their job ie. "The journalist did not include bias in their report". But in the case of a human individual that we are directly referring to by name, "They" does not make sense. Sure, Wikipedia can make whatever rules they want and refer to someone as "they" even though it is grammatically incorrect, but does Wikipedia also bow to the wishes of non-cis people who want to be referred to as xe/xem or ze/zir, or doll? Or do the standards stop at they/them? https://pronoun.fandom.com/wiki/Dollself - 108.168.8.206 (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

If you're trying to make a point here, using Fandom isn't going to help. CUPIDICAE💕 19:07, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I was simply using that link to prove genders such as "dollself" exist. The rest of my statement was in no relation to that though, so an acknowledgement of the main point of what I was saying would be welcome - the fact that i) singular they is not grammatically correct when referring to a specific, known person, and ii) if Wikipedia extends pronoun use to genders outside of he/she/they. 108.168.8.206 (talk) 21:21, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The status of neopronouns on Wikipedia is a matter of some debate but to "acknowledge" your first point, you are wrong about the singular they. In the 21st century, RS on grammar accept that the singular they for a known, specific person is, in fact, a feature of English grammar. Newimpartial (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Demi using female pronouns again

On her instagram bio, she added she/her pronouns to the list of preferred pronouns. I think the article should be reverted to gendered pronouns to avoid the confusion that comes with using they/them to refer to a single person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.194.154 (talk) 20:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

What confusion? We use they/them whenever an individual prefers these pronouns to reflect their gender identity, and I haven't seen any confusion. Newimpartial (talk) 20:28, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

they/them for an individual is improper grammar. 165.89.30.1 (talk) 19:23, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Not a forum EvergreenFir (talk) 04:29, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
No, "we" don't. It's confusing to every normal person because you don't use plural pronouns for individuals. Don't be disingenous. SneedPoster321 (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC) "We" native English speakers certainly do - the Singular they has been around for hundreds of years. Newimpartial (talk) 02:59, 29 April 2022 (UTC) @SneedPoster321: If you disagree with our policies, this is not the website for you. (CC) Tbhotch™ 03:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC) No, it is the website for me. Your insistence on elevating unscientific political ideologies over neutrality is a personal problem, even if you have the numbers to enforce it over the entire site due to the rampant left wing biases of editors and admins. If you expect zero dissent, you will be continually disappointed. SneedPoster321 (talk) 03:09, 29 April 2022 (UTC) This removal indicates that you read the sanctions and that you understand them. (CC) Tbhotch™ 03:18, 29 April 2022 (UTC) I'm sorry you felt the need to be childish over your ideological biases getting pointed out. SneedPoster321 (talk) 04:08, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I see they/them is still their primary pronouns on their bio, I'm not sure if it's intentional the order, but she/her is probably their auxiliary pronoun, meaning singular they is still their preferred pronoun. An alternative is using one/one's, which is not gendered either and a gender omission (useful for people who is nullpronominal/use no pronouns). In the past, I saw Demi put only they/them to their profile, but once they said they don't mind being misgendered as well. Another way to refer to Lovato is using Demi's name. Hope that helps. — Tazuco ^(talk) 21:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Instagram is a unreliable source and should not be used as a source especially on controversial things like pronouns Qwv (talk) 14:38, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Not true in this case. Lovato's Instagram would absolutely be an acceptable source for this type of fact, per WP:BLPSELFPUB. IronGargoyle (talk) 16:44, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything confusing about using they/them as their primary pronoun. Them adding "she" to their bio essentially means that they don't mind being referred to with she/her pronouns, but that doesn't mean people should just ignore the they/them part of it. I personally see no reason to change the page, especially since it seems that they/them is their primary pronoun still. I say we keep it the way it is unless they come out and say they no longer wish to use they/them. QueerFilmNerd^talk 20:37, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree. If they prioritise "they" then we should say "they". If they change this later then we can change the article later. For now, it should stay as it is. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Agree ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:02, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Please change 'they/them/their' to 'she/her'.

I personnally don't see a reason NOT to change it. There are more cons to keeping the plurar 'they/them' in the article. The fact is, it DOES cause confusion. When speaking of her with a music band for instance, who are you refering to by saying 'they'? the whole music band or just her? She personnally added the pronouns she/her, the order has not been confirmed to have any sort of significance, nor has she insisted people call her 'they'. The fact is, there is nothing wrong calling her with 'she/her' pronouns, it gives clarity to the article and STILL respects her wishes. Emli89 (talk) 17:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Demi lists they/them first suggesting they are the preferred pronouns (that's what I do myself). There's no reason to move them back. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

(e-c) One reason not to change it is that there is no reason to change it: they/them are standard pronouns for individuals to choose in English, Demi has in fact chosen they/them, and they have not un-chosen those pronouns by also listing she/her on Instagram. If anything, they/them is *less* confusing to use for a genderqueer person than she/her, in terms of WP:ASTONISH, etc. And, perhaps most importantly, by now most of the Lovato-related RS since the initial pronoun preference was announced use they/them; if that eventually, changes, we can always revisit the usage in this article at that point. Newimpartial (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing surprising about refering to a woman with 'she/her', there is nobody on earth who be confused about that lol. Also, there is no proof that the order in which the pronouns are written have any sort of importance, in fact, one could argue that she first changed her mind about the pronouns and listed only 'they/them', and then changed her mind again to add 'she/her' which she just added at the end of the line, as anyone would. The order has not been proven to have importance, and assuming otherwise is making assumptions in Demi's place. What pronouns are her favorite in the list she wrote is not our business. However, [[1]] states that 'Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible' , misusing the pronouns is making the article less clear, more confusing in a variety of scenarios and unnecessary. In that case, the reader has to do his own research in order to confirm who you are refering to ( i.e. the music band or demi?) which also violates the Wikipedia:Writing better articles#State the obvious guidelines. This is an article written in formal language, you have to stay concise, prioritise the avoidance of confusion and state clearly the subject of each sentence.

Remember, you should not follow your personnal experiences when deciding how to edit an article Wikipedia:Avoiding common mistakes, your judgement on whether the order of pronouns on instagram has any importance at all is not proven. That is your personnal experience, and mine says otherwise.

Take a look at this sentence for example: Lovato's fifth and sixth albums, Confident (2015) and Tell Me You Love Me (2017), infused soul and mature themes; they earned a Grammy Award nomination for Confident, while "Sorry Not Sorry", the lead single from Tell Me You Love Me, became their highest-charting single in the U.S., reaching number six.

It's too long, it is confusing because the use of plural in the sentence makes it so that one has to reread in order to understand what is attributed to which album...

Now look at this one : Lovato has an older full sister named Dallas; a younger maternal half-sister, actress Madison De La Garza; and an older paternal half-sister, Amber, whom they first spoke to when they were twenty years old.

At first glance it is confusing whether 'they' refers to multiple members of the family or just Demi herself. Again, one has to reread it in order to understan clearly the meaning.

Again, look at this : Their mother is of English and Irish descent. They have been vocal about their abusive and strained relationship with their father and once stated, "He was mean, but he wanted to be a good person.

Is 'they' refering to the mother-daughter duo or just Demi ?

There is an extremely long list of such sentences, that are not concise, do not convey meaning in the most direct and simple way. That is not the academic way of writing. Also, Demi has only stated they/them as pronouns, not their. One could argue that their is not appropriate either. Emli89 (talk) 18:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

If you are using your own, apparently limited, literacy in 21st-century English as a basis to argue that the singular they is confusing and should be avoided - well, I'm afraid you're going to need a more convincing argument. The idea that this article, and others using the singular they, are misusing the pronouns is fairly WP:EXTRAORDINARY in 2022 and would require something more than an editor's strongly held personal opinion / private language to back it up. Newimpartial (talk) 18:18, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

This is not a blog, it's an article that has to conform to scientific-style writing, emphasing concise , clear manner of writing. 2022 trends have nothing to do with it and throwing poorly chosen insults at others will not solve this issue or make you more likeable to gen z. The fact is, in order to accomodate this trend the article has been made significantly longer and less clear. The fact that you do not even consider the plenty of examples I have provided is evidence that you strongly bring in your personnal opinions in evaluating constructive criticism. Demi herself has agreed to use of she/her pronouns. Those DO make the article better, and there are no reasons not to make use of it to better the article. Emli89 (talk) 18:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Please read MOS:GENDERID, singular they and preferred pronoun. The use of the singular they in English as a preferred pronoun is by now an established practice, and the arguments that "it is confusing" or "it isn't the grammar I was taught" don't really have any relevance to WP policy or practice. MOS:GENDERID, and WP:V, are what matter in this situation, and both mandate the use of "they" in this article based on the current state of the sources. Newimpartial (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Emli89: I really don't see a point in changing her pronouns in the article. It's a lot more than just changing the words in this article, there's dozens of articles on Demi that would need to have a change in pronouns, for a change that in the end is purely cosmetic. If she says she only wants to go by she/her at some point in the future, that would justify the change, but now it's unnecessary. --VersaceSpace 🌃 18:23, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

You're saying, because it would take too much effort, you won't do it and will refuse to consider any kind of logical argument ? You should have started with that... What's the point of talk pages and guidelines then ?

I would've even offered to help with the editing if you asked. Emli89 (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Those first two examples are fairly long and complex sentences. To be "concise, clear", one might want to break each into two sentences, which would allow using Lovato's name as the subject or at least clarifying the antecedent by talking about one topic at a time. The first example mixes the concepts of themese and charting; the second example mixes a list of identities with some additional details about one of them. DMacks (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Demi's pronouns are not a significant aspect of the problems with either of those examples. Newimpartial (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Emli89, you ain't gonna win this argument. There's more editors 'here', who support the usage of "They/them", than don't. Personally, if it were up to me? We'd be only using the pronouns "He/she" or "Him/her", etc. But, it's not up to me, so you just don't get upset about it & you don't risk getting blocked over it. GoodDay (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Your input on non-binary inclusion in Wikipedia was not needed, much less on the talk page of a biography of a non-binary person. But yes, Emli89, I would also advise you to stop fighting for this to happen, because the path of this discussion (as well as the one at ANI) is very clear. --VersaceSpace 🌃 00:17, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I've already accepted that fact. I said as such in the other thread as well. My only remaining issue is the personnal insult from Newimpartial. I merely wish for an apology. Emli89 (talk) 01:45, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2022

Please change the picture 2603:6081:933C:B43F:61AB:5EBE:8827:25C5 (talk) 01:44, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 01:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

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• Demi Lovato 2022 (cropped).jpg

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Demi no longer identifies as nonbinary?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-11073851/Demi-Lovato-admits-no-longer-using-reverted-her.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

Should we change the pronouns on this article back? (This seems to be different from the discussion above, which uses Instagram as a source.) George Huntley (talk) 18:53, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

First we would need a source that isn't deprecated, yeah? Newimpartial (talk) 19:13, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe this one's appropriate: E.T. —VersaceSpace 🌃 19:15, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, it isn't deprecated. :)

Note re: the section heading - these sources (and presumably the podcast interview on which they are based) discuss pronouns but don't make a statement about nonbinary identity (or otherwise) - feeling more feminine doesn't have anything in particular to do with being or not being nonbinary.

My own WP:OR observation is that being such a fluid person might hint at an emerging genderfluid identity, but that isn't mutually exclusive with nonbinary identity and, in any event, isn't presented as a gender identity in these articles. Newimpartial (talk) 19:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, actually changing Demi's pronouns on the article(s) is going to require extensive discussion no matter what, so I suggest waiting until more people learn of this so it can be thoroughly spoken about. —VersaceSpace 🌃 19:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

If she went from her to him on social media, there would be no hesitation to change every reference to "him". Now that it needs to be changed back, suddenly there's cautious debate. 165.89.30.1 (talk) 19:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

That's false. When Demi became non-binary there was discussion prior to the changing of the singer's pronouns across articles. Is there an implication you're attempting to make? —VersaceSpace 🌃 19:33, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Why are you moving the goal post? I don't see anything wrong with DailyMail. Do we need to wait until the outlets that pushed the Jussie Smollett hoax, Covington kids hoax or Trump Russia hoax to chime in on the story? 165.89.30.1 (talk) 19:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, 165.89.30.1, we actually do, as they are reliable sources. —VersaceSpace 🌃 19:29, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

IP: The Daily Mail is deprecated for use on Wikipedia. It is not considered reliable. Newimpartial (talk) 19:36, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

https://www.etonline.com/demi-lovato-updates-her-pronouns-to-sheher-188417 Hello, it appears that plenty of non deprecated sources have reported on this and she herself made the statement she has officially changed her pronouns back, including her saying “Everyone messes up pronouns at some point” implies she has abandoned identifying as they/them. We should respect her wishes and change her Wikipedia page to reflect how she identifies, especially before users like Newimpartial that contributed to petty conflict in the other topic on her talk page turn this into a repeat of that topic. JNC23 (talk) 19:46, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

@JNC23: neither me nor Newimpartial have displayed any objection to changing Demi's pronouns, but this is a contentious change that will need to be discussed at length, or at the very least we'll need to wait for more reliable sources to report on this. —VersaceSpace 🌃 19:49, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I understand your hesitation, but what source is more reliable than her stating this herself on a podcast? I know you are not opposed to it, I was just noting that on the previous discussion of this topic that happened last month Newimpartial was among a group of users contributing to conflict over this, and I just feel it would be beneficial to make this change before it becomes a similar cesspool of argument JNC23 (talk) 19:59, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

JNC23: the passage from the interview that reads “Everyone messes up pronouns at some point” should not be misread as suggesting that Demi messed up their own pronouns - that's not what it says.

In last month's discussion, all we had was "she/her" on the trailing end of a list of pronouns on social media, and editors were arguing here that the article switch pronouns for reasons that have nothing to do with WP policy. The sourcing situation is clearly changing, so there is no need for you to be hostile in anticipation of a potential negative reaction. Newimpartial (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

No, that sentence does not refer to herself, it refers to the interviewer. Demi might better be described as genderfluid, but that she is using she/her pronouns does not mean she's no longer non-binary or anything. Like myself, some of us are just fine with whatever pronouns. Others, like Eddie Izzard, oscillate until they feel at home in one set. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

@JNC23: It is not verifiable that Lovato has "switched back" or no longer identifies as non-binary. Her Instagram bio currently lists their pronouns as they/them/she/her, implying acceptance of either. In spite of the sloppily written headlines, accepting both she and they pronouns does not constitute "abandoning" non-binary identity. Pronouns are not gender identity—people do not "identify as they/them". There's a mild case to be made that we should prefer the one listed first, but it would be fine for this article to use either. Distinctions like these are why we need to exercise caution. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 20:01, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I was just about to add what Roxy said... "The pronouns on Lovato's Instagram bio have been updated, which also include they/them/she/her. " means either are fine. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

But she/her is much easier to understand grammatically than they/them, and if both are acceptable, why not go with the pronoun that is easier for readers to understand? Also, unsure why a direct audio quote from her is still not enough evidence. She never said she still is cool with people using they/them, and maybe she hasn't had time to go on Instagram or remembered she has to change her social media pronouns. And even if she does change them on Instagram, that still wouldn't be enough for Wikipedia. 24.156.179.25 (talk) 20:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh and also, the mental gymnastics here is astonishing. We use pronouns to reflect how people identify, correct? Pronouns *are* gender identity, that was the whole reason why people change pronouns in the first place. RoxySaunders is thinking of pronouns =/= biological sex. The only reason why at this point she would tolerate they/them is because she doesn't care, not because she doesn't think she is feminine. 24.156.179.25 (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• A green-level RS on RSP (People) has covered this story with an exchange in quotes from the podcast here. The source says: "In response to Dhia asking Lovato to explain the concept of chosen pronouns like they/them, the 29-year-old singer-songwriter said, "Yeah, so, they/them is... I've actually adopted the pronouns of she/her again."" That seems quite clear to me. --Kbabej (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

  Correct. To steelman the other side's argument, they can say "that doesn't mean she no longer uses they/them". But the thing is, she has had both pronouns for a while. So, what would be the point of her statement? If she still went by both they/them and she/her, she would feel no need to even say that. At minimum, she *prefers* she/her over they/them. And based off the woke Wiki agenda, we *must* use *preferred* pronouns. Just because someone can go by they/them doesn't automatically mean that's their preferred pronoun. Crazy concept isn't it? 24.156.179.25 (talk) 20:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)