Talk:Falafel

Question about a source

This is my first time ever contributing to wikipedia, even as a talk page, so excuse me for any mistake I might do (although I've read a lot to try and minimize any mistakes). In the final words of the "Preparation and variations" section, it states: "Yemeni Jews are the first to introduce the concept of falafel served in a pita", looking at the source (Israeli Soul: Easy, Essential, Delicious. Michael Solomonov, Steven Cook. Page 23), it says: "Jewish food historian Gil Marks credits Yemenite Jewish immigrants with putting it all together in a pita sandwich around 1948", however, the next line clearly states: "An October 19, 1939 Palestine Post article is the first mention of the concept of falafels served in a pita bread", and indeed checking the source, published in October 19 1939, the description of Falafel being sold in Pita bread is accurate, and predates the 1948 claim, shouldn't the 1948 claim be dismissed then? --5.102.195.118 (talk) 16:17, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Political debate over origin of food

There was a claim that stated the origin of the dish resulted in ethnic disputes which was backed up by a faulty site(the link redirected me to an empty page) so I removed the citation and the statement overall. Reinhearted (talk) 19:55, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Please don't do that, a dead link is not a valid reason to delete sourced content. See WP:DEADREF. I have restored the content and fixed the link. --IamNotU (talk) 02:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

The history today page stated that the dish originated in Egypt but the time of origin is disputed while Oxford says the similar notion but argues it could have been invented in ancient times. Both articles indicate Egypt, if most reliable sources say that it most likely comes from Egypt, then why is the first sentence “the origins are unknown and controversial” ? Reinhearted (talk) 17:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

The text I restored was: Debates over the origin of falafel have sometimes devolved into political discussions about the relationship between Arabs and Israelis. Not seeing how the fact that there are debates is debatable. The reason given for deleting it was that the link was dead. Now it's not. If there's another reason, like "not necessary to put" or "I don't like it", that's a different discussion, see the section above. --IamNotU (talk) 20:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Yes, we’ve stated this before on multiple discussion boards. Also, the link you’ve used as citation redirects to a blog that’s very opinionated rather than factual and doesn’t actually specifically state that the origins of falafel have lead to debates of the relationship between Arabs and Jews. It talks about how many Palestinians feel that the Israelis appropriated their food including falafel. Reinhearted (talk) 21:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Controversial change to origin

I have reverted these edits by Reinhearted. They deleted the statement "The origin of falafel is unknown and controversial" and its reliable source Carlo Petrini's "Slow Food", which is followed by "A common theory is that the dish originated in Egypt". They left the unequivocal statement "The dish originated in Egypt".

This edit seems to be a continuation of the recent edit war that led to the page being protected, by IP 24.189.29.164 (talk) ([1], [2], etc.), user Factchecker1995, and several other IPs. That edit has been reverted about ten times already by other editors including Donner60, Supreme Deliciousness, LuK3, and Macrakis, so it seems there has not been a consensus to delete this. Reinharted has this time added another citation of "History Today" [3] (which I've restored) in support of an origin in Egypt, in addition to the existing one of Shooky Galili in Ynet News, which says that "falafel was almost certainly developed in Egypt", though it also leads with a detailed description of the controversy surrounding the origins. The edit also made small changes related to the Copts, which are actually contradicted by the new source.

Other reliable sources indicate Egypt as a likely though not definitively known origin, for example Gil Marks says "Origin: Probably Egypt", but gives India or Yemen as other possibilities. The Oxford Companion to Food says "Their origin cannot be traced and is probably extremely ancient. It is, however, generally accepted that falafel originated in Egypt". The "extremely ancient" origin disagrees with the History Today source. Given that there is no general agreement among sources, the past history of edit-warring over origin in this article and a corresponding controversy in general, I think that WP:NPOV precludes making such an unequivocal statement in Wikipedia's voice about the origin. --IamNotU (talk) 03:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC) Re-pinging Reinhearted, didn't go through the first time --IamNotU (talk) 03:42, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Previous consensus is that it is hard to say with 100% certainty where it originated, as is true with many recipes. Egypt is considered to be one of the most likely locations, but the basic idea is a standard one in Mediterranean and Middle Eastern cookery. I don't think that the article should say that it is certain that it originated in Egypt. Where sources disagree, Wikipedia should not prefer one over another and should reflect the fact that the sources disagree.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:58, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

the claim “the origins are unknown and controversial” indicates that the origins are completely unknown, even though most reliable articles indicate that it most likely originated in Egypt. The book that was used as a reference to that claim was hinting a political bias and didn’t specifically state what was written in the article. I used history today, which is known as a reliable source to indicate that the dish did indeed originate in Egypt, even though the time of origin is disputed. Also, many of the sources that dispute these claims such as “origins that trace back to India and Yemen” are haaretz and Jerusalem Post which are known to be politically bias and not entirely accurate. Reinhearted (talk) 16:55, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Why is there still a gallery section?

There is a perfectly fine link to commons. Figure it out all ready. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:CE7F:E270:20FD:CEF1:AA3A:3CE8 (talk) 05:30, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Agreed and removed. Wikipedia articles generally should not have repetitive image galleries as this is what Commons is for. See also WP:GALLERY.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:53, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Does the picture of giant fritters truly convey the dish?

That image is more of a spectacle than showing the dish. Googling "aleb falafel" of "falafel press" shows nothig of this size, while the article and every recipe discusses "balls" or small "fritters". This image is larger than chicken wings being fried.[4] Having it for the sake of novelty is annoying... at best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:CE7F:E270:7CDD:990F:348E:47C1 (talk) 05:08, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Staple?

@Spudlace: falafel is certainly a common food in Egypt, but I'm pretty sure it's not a "staple food" by that article's definition, "a dominant portion of a standard diet", even though the History Today article says it is. That article is surely using the term in a broad sense to mean "a common food", the way you might say that hot dogs are a staple of the US diet. The staple foods of Egypt are more likely bread (khubz), beans (ful medames), and maybe koshary in the cities. --Macrakis (talk) 23:17, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

No objections to removal. The source (which I forgot to add) was Anat Helman (OUP) quoting Clifford Wright: "The Egyptian version of the falafel is so much a staple food in Egypt that the word ta'miyya derives, in fact, from the Arabic word for nourishment". Spudlace (talk) 23:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Alas. It would be really amusing if it somehow was the staple food of an area. 2603:8081:2603:E100:753B:6E8C:537B:AFD4 (talk) 04:57, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Need a hand

So, I understand the people working on this article are super dooper interested in improving the project, and even the category of food as opposed to Isreal vs Palestinian bushtit. I drank a lot of White Claws (don't judge, I'm on a diet) and decided to give Seattle-style teriyaki a go since it has been in the back of mind for awhile. Note the proper use of images and inclusion of various degrees of history across peoples. It could use a copy edit if anyone has a few minutes, though (that damn White Claw). I think that it is already not too many steps behind this article since you have all turned it to shit. Oh well, love, and go fuck yourselves, CptNoNo Alansberries (talk)