Talk:Operation Trojan Shield: Difference between revisions
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Revision as of 00:16, 8 December 2022
![]() | This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | A news item involving Operation Trojan Shield was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 9 June 2021. | ![]() |
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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
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Scope
I'd like to suggest that this article deal with the communication platform. The sting operation should be a separate article. Thoughts? Schwede66 08:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- I think the two are inseparable at this point, as the communication platform seems to have been promoted solely to facilitate the sting. -- The Anome (talk) 08:57, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with The Anome, one is not without the other. If you have a counterargument, I would be interested in hearing why it should be separated. Jurisdicta (talk) 01:35, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- There's not much information about the actual platform. Either way, the article can be 100,000 bytes before we need to consider splitting (right now it's ~15k), so for now at least it's best to keep all the information together especially since they're completely connected. Uses x (leave me a message) 02:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Description
Im not sure it fair to describe anom as a encrypted messaging application as well as the messing app, the court document describe anom as a device, more persisly it seem to be a google pixle phone installed with a customized version of the android operating system. more detals about the device can bee seen a this now removed word-press blog https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PwQXt6Sn_YwJ:https://anomexposed.wordpress.com/+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au.it seem like it also contained voicepingapp.com used for walky talky feature.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.220.169.195 (talk) 16:34, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- The info has been corrected in the article since this. For future reference, here's the archived link in case the cache gets deleted at a future date: https://web.archive.org/web/20210608063520/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PwQXt6Sn_YwJ:https://anomexposed.wordpress.com/ Uses x (leave me a message) 00:31, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Unsealed court record
The now-unsealed court record: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20799201-operation-trojan-shield-court-record should provide a substantial amount of public domain text, as the statements given by the FBI agent are made by a U.S. Federal Government employee in the course of their work, and thus should be in the public domain in the United States. -- The Anome (talk) 09:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Name of the app?
I noticed some inconsistency among sources for the letter casing for ANOM. The USA's FBI used "Anom" in at least one of their court filings.[1] uses. The Australian Federal Police used "ANOM" in a press release.[2] This CNN article used "ANoM" though I can't see how they came up with that letter casing.[3] At present this Wikipedia article is using "ANOM" which is consistent with Australian Federal Police usage. --Marc Kupper|talk 15:01, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- I would presume FBI:s spelling is the "correct" one, since they commissioned the product. But we should include both ways of writing it since both seem to be used. On a similar note, is it really stylized as AN0̸M? To me the "A" looks more like a capital lambda, and the "0/" looks more like the danish/norwegian Ø, so stylized as ΛNØM ? (compare this. /Sigvid (talk) 16:58, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- I think the ANoM version was created by someone attempting to copy the look of "AN0M" as displayed in a font with old-style numerals. -- The Anome (talk) 18:02, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- More likely Slashed_zero. peterl (talk) 18:42, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the Ø was definitely a slashed zero, because they were trying to look l33t, and thus "cyber". But we can't easily represent this in Wikipedia in a reliable cross-platform way (there are several ways it can be done, but none are consistenly right), because of differences between browser rendering libraries on different platforms. -- The Anome (talk) 19:34, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. Maybe we could have a picture of the "icon" (maybe from here) then? Should fall under Commons:Template:PD-textlogo? /Sigvid (talk) 20:43, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- I think the ANoM version was created by someone attempting to copy the look of "AN0M" as displayed in a font with old-style numerals. -- The Anome (talk) 18:02, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
President Trump's involvement?
WP:NOTFORUM. Stick to discussions about how to improve this article.
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This operation began and evolved mostly during the Trump administration. The Dept of Justice under Trump was noted for a major increase in arrests for international crime, notably child pornography and sex trafficking. How involved were Trump administration officials in approving and coordinating this effort among the cooperating agencies and countries? 96.255.69.229 (talk) 00:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
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Warrantless?
No mention is made of any search warrants at the outset of the operation. Is it possible that using the Five Eyes framework allows governments to spy on the other four countries' citizens without obtaining warrants? Abductive (reasoning) 08:46, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
No prior history
why is there no prior history about this "app"? there was nothing on wikipedia; this article was created in june 8th 2021. did "app" really exist at all? what does actual court documents of arrested people say about the app that was used to gather information and evidence against them? or is there no mention at all of such an "app" in court documents? why is there no evidence of any such app except in publicity coming from law enforcement after the arrests? why is this significant fact not mentioned in this article?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:4000:2281:dc7c:48db:50bf:a506:2 (talk) 17:26, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Details from wordpress blog - include or remove?
I recently adjusted the wording on the wordpress blog post incident; however User:Uses x restored some of it ([4]). I think we should keep it to the short and sweet version. Basically, there's essentially no reason to take the cache of a deleted blogpost from someone who seemed to be trying to hype their own favored secure communication system seriously - anonymous, deleted blogposts are the absolute bottom tier of reliability. As such, we're stuck with whatever the RTE article says, and I'm not convinced that this one snippet is relevant enough to draw into the article very much. Notably, to my understanding there's been no allegation that the alleged Google connections were relevant or part of the scheme or anything. According to our sources, the comms were essentially bcc'd to FBI servers. There's no indication Google maintained said backups or anything. The bit about servers in US / UK / Australia / NZ / Canada is interesting and possibly relevant, but again, it's a bad source and RTE was essentially just repeating it.
Basically, to me, this is kind of like hoisting up the person who wrote an analysis that a stock was going to fall 3 months before a stock actually collapsed. Maybe this analyst was on to something, but far more likely is that they were just lucky: tons of analysts are constantly making hordes of predictions, some people will be right by sheer chance. Wikipedia shouldn't raise up these "I totally called it" predictions without really strong backing in independent sources competent in that area. This random wordpress guy was right - but so what? Maybe he was just lucky. Having read the article, a lot of his other complaints sound unhinged like the use of JIRA for issue tracking, so it seems entirely possible he was merely throwing out random accusations. We shouldn't act as if he actually cracked the case, because two paragraphs in a non-technical media article isn't sufficient to say either way. I think keeping it to just "calling it a scam" is the most that's supportable here, and remove the added bits. Thoughts? SnowFire (talk) 23:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- @SnowFire RTÉ syndicated the article from the Agence France-Presse, which is a major news agency. AFP doesn't post articles on their site like Reuters/AP/UPI do, so the syndicated articles are the best source. Anyway, my view is that even when the "exposing" is put aside, the connections to those servers is an important part of how the device worked, as it explains how messages were copied. There might be a better way to present the information compared to how it is right now, but I think the information should be mentioned somewhere. Uses x (leave me a message) 23:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Sure, we can mention it, but I wouldn't particularly cite it to this one deleted blog rant is all I'm saying. We can mention the connections to the extent that reliable sources bring them up, which very well may not match the slant that Mr. Blogposter made (who, let me stress again, made some nonsensical claims too). SnowFire (talk) 00:22, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Promotional tone
I notice my edit changing "over 800 suspects" to "around 800 suspects" was reverted. I won't edit any more of these, but similar hypey wording occurs around 9 times in the article (3x "more than", 1x "almost", 5x "over"), and combining all of these together, it makes this article sound a bit like a press release or an advertisement. I would personally prefer a more factual, encyclopedic tone. My proposed solution is to change most of these to "around" or "about". –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:42, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- In the UK the National Crime Agency hasn't said how many were arrested, so we know "over 800" is correct, but the actual number might not be anywhere near 800 so "around" wouldn't work. Uses x (leave me a message) 23:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Move
Proposing move from ANOM to Operation Trojan Shield. Taylor 49 (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Done. Taylor 49 (talk) 19:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- After 90 minutes of waiting? Please follow the instructions on WP:RM if you really want to forward with this. Wikidata using "Operation Trojan Shield" can just mean Wikidata is wrong. Anyway, "Operation Trojan Shield" is mentioned in passing in a few articles ( https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/08/world/australia/operation-trojan-horse-anom.html mentions it twice) while ANOM is mentioned constantly. More generally, this article is about the app as a whole, not just the law enforcement operation, and it is more recognizable with the ANOM title. SnowFire (talk) 20:03, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- I shouldn't even go into this since you haven't even bothered to explain your reason, but it's also worth noting that Trojan Shield appears to be specifically the FBI's name for the operation - but this was a global operation (e.g. also Operation Ironside, etc.). So it's not a great name on those grounds either. SnowFire (talk) 20:05, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
wikidata has separate items about the police operation and the software
Wikidata has Operation Trojan Shield (Q107145411) which currently associates with Wikipedia articles in about a dozen languages, including this one (currently named ANOM), and commons:Category:Operation Trojan Shield. The item is an instance of is a sting operation (Q6283446) and international collaboration (Q63444455). It has properties item operated (P121): ANOM (Q107177733) and uses (P2283): ANOM (Q107177733)
Wikidata also has ANOM (Q107177733) which is an instance of Trojan horse (Q14639), messaging app (Q18922759), spyware (Q14644) and mobile app (Q620615). It has no Wikipedia articles at present, and commons:Category:ANOM. It is used by (P1535) Operation Trojan Shield (Q107145411).
This article is currently titled ANOM but is mostly about the sting operation. I agree with Wikidata that they are different "things" (but related). If this article is not split, we should consider which wikidata item it best fits, since the titles are presently confusing. --Scott Davis Talk 11:53, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- See also the first talk page item: "Scope". I note, though, that the Wikidata and en.WP items do not necessarily have to match, and that it is important to link to related articles in other languages through Wikidata. Schwede66 12:59, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- At the moment, it looks like the other language articles are not all properly tagged either. I expect the Wikidata item, Wikipedia article title, and first sentence to agree on the primary topic of the article. Currently, this article title is "ANOM" but the first line is "The ANOM (also stylized as AN0M or ΛNØM) sting operation (known as Operation Trojan Shield or Operation Ironside) is a collaboration by...". af:ANOM-lokvaloperasie according to Google Translate the title would be ANOM trap operation and the first line "ANOM (styled as AN0M) was a supposedly safe messaging program used by criminals and formed the basis for a trap operation." Neither article matches its title, but in opposite ways. The articles about the software should be ANOM (Q107177733) and the ones about the sting operation should be Operation Trojan Shield (Q107145411). Eventually, some of the article might be split and have one for each wikidata item (or for others we don't have yet). --Scott Davis Talk 15:04, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: the result of the deletion discussion on Commons was to keep the image, so this is no longer an issue. -- The Anome (talk) 11:40, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
GrapheneOS' alledged use in ArcaneOS
Recently, a discussion on the GrapheneOS Wikipedia page took place and it was decided that the alledged use GrapheneOS in ArcaneOS was not relevent enough to be on the GrapheneOS page.
But it may be relevent to this page, the sources from the removed section on the GrapheneOS page are below:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7b4gg/anom-phone-arcaneos-fbi-backdoor
https://www.engadget.com/fbi-anom-phone-arcaneos-180523267.html
Note to editors from the GrapheneOS discussion: There is likely a bias/conflict of interest from editors involved in that discussion, If you are a editor from the GrapheneOS discussion, You are advised to Stay Out Of This Discussion. 2603:7080:A903:F154:B992:783B:E850:2A41 (talk) 22:08, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
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