Talk:Jesus: Difference between revisions
→Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2022: WP:TPNO, no discernible request, seems to just be proselytizing |
→Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2022: new section |
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:Carpenter is mentioned in the article, but IMO not so much it should be in the [[WP:LEAD]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 09:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC) |
:Carpenter is mentioned in the article, but IMO not so much it should be in the [[WP:LEAD]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 09:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2022 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Jesus|answered=no}} |
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Jesus wasn't born in 4BC he was born in 0. BC literally stands for Before Christ. How can there be 3 years Before Christ if he was born in 4BC. There is no logical sense in this. [[Special:Contributions/81.108.218.116|81.108.218.116]] ([[User talk:81.108.218.116|talk]]) 21:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
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Frequently asked questions
This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived. |
- Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Wikipedia?
- The issue was discussed on the talk page:
- Based on this Wikipedia search the phrase is widely used in Wikipedia.
- The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
- The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.
- Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?
- Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.
- Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?
- The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:
- Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
- Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.
- The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.
- Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?
- The formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".
- Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?
- A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.
- Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
- Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
- It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally.[1] For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine,[2] Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."[3][4]
- Finally, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.
- Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
- A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
- More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.
- Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?
- Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
- Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?
- The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.
References
- ^ R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
- ^ Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
- ^ Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.
Added at the bottom
Jesus is a religious, cultural, worldwide icon, and is among the most influential people in human history. (Reference here) - User:Sleetimetraveller — Preceding undated comment added 12:53, 21 July 2021
Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2022
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I think it would be appropriate to change the birthdate, approximately to the deathdate, i.e AD 1-3, like AD 30-33, and the modern description of "Jew", as in contemporary Jewish people, which had not yet developed into the same people group of today, to "Judean", i.e relating to Judea 2A01:C22:90C7:6F00:A1EE:993D:6C91:A259 (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit semi-protected}}
template. Please additionally ensure that you provide reliable sources for your proposal. Actualcpscm (talk) 16:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2022
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I just want to add more bible stories to page about jesus Jessie H Christian (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- This is not really a proper edit request, though you could start another section. Start with a story you'd like to add, and we can discuss it here--being such an important and heavily visited page, it is always best to discuss first. Having said that, I think including more stories might be an uphill battle, just because we try to keep the page succinct. But that doesn't mean it can't be a successful battle. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:24, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- Uphill battle indeed. The assumption in this article is that Jesus existed, making this an historical biography. So, we can’t relate stories that are not reliably sourced. The various versions of the Bible and other Abrahamic religious texts (Talmud, Book of Mormon, Quran) are not reliable sources for history. We must depend on scholars. That is to say, I don’t think Bible stories can be added here. Easier in a religious article, like Jesus in Christianity. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- Not done for now: Basically, what Dumuzid says. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:29, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
In the introduction it should say carpenter as well.
Not just preacher and prophet but was a carpenter for nearly all of his life but the last 3-4 roughly. 47.5.27.207 (talk) 09:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- Carpenter is mentioned in the article, but IMO not so much it should be in the WP:LEAD. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2022
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Jesus wasn't born in 4BC he was born in 0. BC literally stands for Before Christ. How can there be 3 years Before Christ if he was born in 4BC. There is no logical sense in this. 81.108.218.116 (talk) 21:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
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