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:::Again, they explicitly state that there does exist weak evidence of the proposition. Whether you believe that evidence or not, the statement that no evidence exists is false. [[User:Miladragon3|Peaux]] ([[User talk:Miladragon3|talk]]) 06:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
:::Again, they explicitly state that there does exist weak evidence of the proposition. Whether you believe that evidence or not, the statement that no evidence exists is false. [[User:Miladragon3|Peaux]] ([[User talk:Miladragon3|talk]]) 06:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
::::You are right that I haven't provided evidence that Lynn falsified his data, because this is a Wikipedia talk page and that would be [[WP:OR]]. Fortunately, dozens of published scientists have already done that work for us. We have already had many, many, many discussions of Lynn, as well as Cochran, Hardy, and Harpending, on these and related talk pages. This is junk science and per [[WP:FRINGE]], should not be legitimized on Wikipedia. If you want ''real'' evidence that Lynn falsified, [[William H. Tucker (psychologist)]]'s work comes highly recommended, or if you want a more approachable work, ''[[Superior: The Return of Race Science]]'' is pretty good despite (and because) of the complaints of the scientific racists it documents. For Harpending etc., off the top of my head, [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence (2nd nomination)]] is one previous discussion about this. As I mentioned on that discussion, they are not serious scholars and do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. If they are right about any aspect of their 'intriguing' theories, it's almost certainly a coincidence or "stopped-clock" kind of thing, and not because of the merits of their supposed research. [[User:Grayfell|Grayfell]] ([[User talk:Grayfell|talk]]) 06:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
::::You are right that I haven't provided evidence that Lynn falsified his data, because this is a Wikipedia talk page and that would be [[WP:OR]]. Fortunately, dozens of published scientists have already done that work for us. We have already had many, many, many discussions of Lynn, as well as Cochran, Hardy, and Harpending, on these and related talk pages. This is junk science and per [[WP:FRINGE]], should not be legitimized on Wikipedia. If you want ''real'' evidence that Lynn falsified, [[William H. Tucker (psychologist)]]'s work comes highly recommended, or if you want a more approachable work, ''[[Superior: The Return of Race Science]]'' is pretty good despite (and because) of the complaints of the scientific racists it documents. For Harpending etc., off the top of my head, [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence (2nd nomination)]] is one previous discussion about this. As I mentioned on that discussion, they are not serious scholars and do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. If they are right about any aspect of their 'intriguing' theories, it's almost certainly a coincidence or "stopped-clock" kind of thing, and not because of the merits of their supposed research. [[User:Grayfell|Grayfell]] ([[User talk:Grayfell|talk]]) 06:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::All that is well and good, but if true, then that would cast significant doubt on the legitimacy of the source cited in this article, which treats them as legitimate work. [[User:Miladragon3|Peaux]] ([[User talk:Miladragon3|talk]]) 06:56, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
{{hat|For those without access, here is an extended quotation from the article in question. [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 05:59, 22 September 2023 (UTC)}}
{{hat|For those without access, here is an extended quotation from the article in question. [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 05:59, 22 September 2023 (UTC)}}
{{talkquote|There is little good evidence about just what IQ levels are typical for Ashkenazi Jews. (There is even less evidence available for Sephardic Jews, and in the rest of this section “Jews” should be taken to mean “Ashkenazi Jews of Eu- ropean descent.”) Jewish IQs have been variously esti- mated to be 7–15 points higher than those of White non- Jews in Britain and America (Flynn, 1991; Lynn, 2004, 2006). All available studies, however, are based on samples of convenience. It is not clear to what we should attribute the greater overall intellectual ability popularly attributed to Jews and supported by (weak) data. It is certainly possible to invoke cultural explanations, and there are numerous armchair genetic theories as well. One genetic theory may have more substance to it than the others. This is the “sphingolipid” theory of Cochran, Hardy, and Harpending (2005). Coch- ran et al. noted that Jews are subject to several distinctive genetic conditions that involve an excess of sphingolip- ids—the substance that forms part of the insulating outer sheaths that allow nerve cells to transmit electrical signals and encourage growth of dendrites. These illnesses include Tay-Sachs disease, Niemann-Pick disease, and Gaucher’s disease. Having too many of these sphingolipids is fatal or at least likely to result in serious illness that can prevent reproduction. Why does natural selection not eliminate these diseases? Cochran et al. enlisted the sickle-cell ane- mia analogy. The sickle-cell gene produces illness for individuals who have two copies of it (one from each parent). But those with only one copy of the gene are provided with protection against malaria. Cochran et al. argued that because Jews were segregated into trade and finance since their arrival in Europe in the 8th century AD, intelligence conferred a larger reproductive advantage for them than for others. The main evidence in favor of the sphingolipid theory is that Jews with Gaucher’s disease are more likely to be working in occupations demanding ex- tremely high IQ than are other Jews. No direct test of the association of the genes for these diseases with intelligence has been made, so the theory remains merely an intriguing suggestion. It is important to note that even at the highest esti- mates we have of Jewish IQ, Jewish accomplishment ex- ceeds what would be predicted on the basis of IQ alone. Nisbett (2009) has argued that the numbers of Jewish Ivy Leaguers, professors at elite colleges, Supreme Court clerks, and Nobel Prize winners are greater than one would expect even if average Jewish IQ were 115. He has also noted that remarkable as the superior achievement of Jews is, the achievement difference between Jews and non-Jews is far less extreme than differences between groups in many other comparisons that cannot be explained on purely ge- netic grounds, such as the achievements of the Italians versus the English in the 15th century, of the English versus the Italians after the 18th century, of Arabs versus Europeans in the 8th century, of Europeans versus Arabs after the 14th century, and of New Englanders versus Southerners throughout American history.}}
{{talkquote|There is little good evidence about just what IQ levels are typical for Ashkenazi Jews. (There is even less evidence available for Sephardic Jews, and in the rest of this section “Jews” should be taken to mean “Ashkenazi Jews of Eu- ropean descent.”) Jewish IQs have been variously esti- mated to be 7–15 points higher than those of White non- Jews in Britain and America (Flynn, 1991; Lynn, 2004, 2006). All available studies, however, are based on samples of convenience. It is not clear to what we should attribute the greater overall intellectual ability popularly attributed to Jews and supported by (weak) data. It is certainly possible to invoke cultural explanations, and there are numerous armchair genetic theories as well. One genetic theory may have more substance to it than the others. This is the “sphingolipid” theory of Cochran, Hardy, and Harpending (2005). Coch- ran et al. noted that Jews are subject to several distinctive genetic conditions that involve an excess of sphingolip- ids—the substance that forms part of the insulating outer sheaths that allow nerve cells to transmit electrical signals and encourage growth of dendrites. These illnesses include Tay-Sachs disease, Niemann-Pick disease, and Gaucher’s disease. Having too many of these sphingolipids is fatal or at least likely to result in serious illness that can prevent reproduction. Why does natural selection not eliminate these diseases? Cochran et al. enlisted the sickle-cell ane- mia analogy. The sickle-cell gene produces illness for individuals who have two copies of it (one from each parent). But those with only one copy of the gene are provided with protection against malaria. Cochran et al. argued that because Jews were segregated into trade and finance since their arrival in Europe in the 8th century AD, intelligence conferred a larger reproductive advantage for them than for others. The main evidence in favor of the sphingolipid theory is that Jews with Gaucher’s disease are more likely to be working in occupations demanding ex- tremely high IQ than are other Jews. No direct test of the association of the genes for these diseases with intelligence has been made, so the theory remains merely an intriguing suggestion. It is important to note that even at the highest esti- mates we have of Jewish IQ, Jewish accomplishment ex- ceeds what would be predicted on the basis of IQ alone. Nisbett (2009) has argued that the numbers of Jewish Ivy Leaguers, professors at elite colleges, Supreme Court clerks, and Nobel Prize winners are greater than one would expect even if average Jewish IQ were 115. He has also noted that remarkable as the superior achievement of Jews is, the achievement difference between Jews and non-Jews is far less extreme than differences between groups in many other comparisons that cannot be explained on purely ge- netic grounds, such as the achievements of the Italians versus the English in the 15th century, of the English versus the Italians after the 18th century, of Arabs versus Europeans in the 8th century, of Europeans versus Arabs after the 14th century, and of New Englanders versus Southerners throughout American history.}}

Revision as of 06:56, 22 September 2023

Former good article nomineeRace and intelligence was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 14, 2005Articles for deletionKept
June 24, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
July 18, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 25, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 4, 2006Articles for deletionKept
April 11, 2011Articles for deletionKept
February 24, 2020Deletion reviewOverturned
February 29, 2020Articles for deletionKept
Current status: Former good article nominee

Scientific Consensus

At this point WP:DENY is probably the best approach here. Wikipedia talk pages are not a WP:FORUM. Generalrelative (talk) 23:10, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I see in the FAQ section of this page that folks are trying to claim no evidence for a genetic link between race and intelligence as a "scientific consensus" viewpoint despite the fact that actual scientific consensus is so rare that the phrase could be considered an oxymoron. Let's take a look at the claims related to that FAQ and maybe delete that section?

No evidence for such a connection has ever been published.

The bell curve research, SAT scores, army entrance scores - most race/IQ data has shown a gap that is challenging to explain exclusively through environmental factors.

A statement signed by 143 senior human population geneticists states categorically that genetics research in no way supports the view that "recent natural selection has led to worldwide differences in I.Q. test results".

143 academics choosing to virtue-signal on a topic likely to help their career doesn't speak to a broad scientific consensus. Top academics signed a letter condemning the COVID lab leak theory too.

As understanding of the human genome and the science of population genetics advances, it has become increasingly clear that race is not a biologically meaningful way to categorize human population groups. See for example this statement by the American Association of Physical Anthropologists.

That's just saying the terms of the discussion are ill-defined. So you're welcome to say there's a "scientific consensus" that race is a poorly-defined concept - that's a fact.

Even if we take ancestral population groups to be proxies for race, most subject-matter experts agree that cognitive differences between such such groups are unlikely to exist.

"most" doesn't amount to a scientific consensus - you'd be fair to say that "most" university professors vote for the political left but that doesn't mean there is a "scientific consensus" that the left is better

Extensive evidence has been published which indicates that observed differences in IQ test performance between racial groups are environmental in origin.

100% environmental in origin? I don't think so. That's like claiming that Shaq is good at basketball because he trained a lot. The guy is also tall.

Most researchers view the idea of a genetic connection between race and intelligence as scientifically obsolete. 

Sure, they view race and intelligence as fuzzy, unscientific topics that they don't want to get into. That's not the same as saying that there is a scientific consensus.

There is a scientific consensus that the earth orbits around the sun. There is little scientific consensus on the topic of race and intelligence. Also this phrase is not the kind of wording that should appear on a supposedly neutral wiki page. Brandon (talk) 21:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does not base article content on the unsourced opinions of random contributors. What you 'think', and what you consider 'facts' are of no relevance here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:52, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I read the higher-level discussion and now understand that you have higher-level mods who are willing to allow this extreme language. Obviously not something I can overrule. Not sure how a discussion gets closed out but I'm not trying to renegotiate a supreme court ruling on my first day Brandon (talk) 22:17, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your "first day"? According to this you've edited sporadically on this account since 2011, and just happen to have resumed editing after 4 years in order to dispute consensus in one the most contentious topics on the encyclopedia. If you're not yet aware that we don't have higher-level mods who are willing to allow this extreme language perhaps you are also not aware of our policy against abusing multiple accounts? Generalrelative (talk) 22:31, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is my only account. I read this particular article and it was so heavily partisan that I decided to get back in the game. Brandon (talk) 22:35, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have offered precisely zero evidence that this article doesn't follow standard Wikipedia practice in not promoting fringe pseudoscience as some sort of counterpoint to clear scientific consensus. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The bell curve isn't fringe pseudoscience. It was written by reputable academics. The other discussion on this page wants to add some data from it. Let's add back a bit of objectivity to the page by including some of that. Brandon (talk) 22:50, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing 'objective' about using Wikipedia to promote fringe racist views. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm looking to add data to a page with very little data. As I mentioned, if you have better data, I'd be happy to pursue it. But I am beginning to suspect that you don't like any research you've ever seen on this topic. You wouldn't go to a page about nuclear fission and remove all the data because you consider nuclear power dangerous, right? You contextualize data that you don't like. Brandon (talk) 23:04, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The data in the Bell Curve that you seem to be so impressed with was based on fringe science funded by the Pioneer Fund, who are also notable for publishing Nazi propaganda in the US. It was and is fringe pseudoscience. Hernstein probably was reputable before it was published, but it definitely tarnished his legacy. Murray never really was reputable except among the far-right. MrOllie (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific consensus in the lead

Recently @AndyTheGrump reverted my edit that corrected an inaccuracy in the lead about scientific consensus

I replaced the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin. with the scientific consensus is that intelligence is a complex trait that is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors. exactly as stated in the cited source of medline plus

he argued that MedlinePlus which is produced by United States National Library of Medicine is not WP:RS, calling it “misuse of source” even though these are the exact words of the source, and claimed it irrelevant even though the title of the article itself is “Race and intelligenceChafique (talk) 11:52, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even setting aside the reliability issue, you cited a source that is about genetic variation between individuals - this article is about variation between groups. That is an extremely important distinction. See the many, many discussions about this on this talk page and its archives. MrOllie (talk) 12:01, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the individual vs group distinction is important. And this sentence of the lead has been repeatedly discussed in the archives, including in several RfCs about the scientific consensus. DFlhb (talk) 08:42, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please look at the context of your edit. The lede, like the rest of the article, is discussing supposed differences in IQ between groups ('races'). Your source isn't. Furthermore, the lede is supposed to summarise material discussed in depth in the article body. The article body cites multiple in-depth analyses of the actual topic in question. It is entirely inappropriate to try to counter them in the lede by citing a MedLine webpage aimed at a lay audience. There is a multitude of peer-reviewed and subject-expert written content available on the subject, and those are the sources we should be citing. MedLine is fine for it's intended purpose (providing background information on medical topics to the general public) but it isn't a peer-reviewed journal, and it isn't a reliable source for topics it doesn't even discuss. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:11, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chafique Medline plus is just a digital library run by the National Institutes of Health. They index papers from academic journals, including good and bad. You can find papers purporting to prove demonic possession in MedLine. Inclusion in Medline does not make something good by default. The papers are published in journals (the actual source), not Medline, which simply indexes them. Zenomonoz (talk) 12:12, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should this article discuss the hereditarianism movement itself?

I'd support adding a sentence to the last lead paragraph about the clear political goals (segregation/eugenics/"racial awareness") of the hereditarian position (based on this paper, page 6), and adding a corresponding paragraph to the body, maybe in the "Policy relevance and ethics" section. Some of this stuff is mentioned in the History section but only in passing; most of this article focuses on the science, but not on the movement linked to that science, and that movement's false claims (that their research is suppressed, "taboo", or that opponents are engaged in "blank-slate" science denial). The paper I linked addresses this at length and is a good source if we decide to cover this. DFlhb (talk) 08:46, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Frederick Douglass

Please be careful when discussing Frederick Douglass. He was the half black, half white offspring of a plantation owner. He is also very important to the issue of Blackface. When new slave families arrived on plantations, plantation owners often allowed their children to interact with the slave kids. Whenever this happened, the black kids would laugh at anything the white kids did, funny or not. This condition was picked up by the whites, it was imitated in traveling circuses, on stage, in vaudeville, and in silent film. It was so bad that when Douglass gained fame, he was told to never smile in pictures taken of him, or it would remind people of the condition. So, of the hundreds of pictures taken of Frederick Douglass, none show him with a smile. This, despite being instructed to ally himself with the Suffragette Movement, having two wives (one white), and five children. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Milner (talkcontribs) 23:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What edit are you suggesting? --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:28, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence for Jewish IQ advantage

Why was this content deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CuriousCrafter123 (talkcontribs) 17:55, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake. Sorry. I've self-reverted. NightHeron (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@NightHeron I'm not going to complain if you think this content is really necessary (though I don't see the point myself), but can you fix the sfn multiple-target error that you've re-introduced please? Thanks, Wham2001 (talk) 10:47, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What error are you referring to? I'm not familiar with the term "multiple-target error". Thanks. NightHeron (talk) 11:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See Category:Harv and Sfn multiple-target errors – it's where a shortened footnote (reference using {{harv}}, {{sfn}} or one of their relatives) points to more than one long-form citation. The solution in this case is to convert the inline reference to Nisbet et al. (2021a) to a shortened footnote (sfn) citation. If you edit articles using shortened footnotes more than very occasionally, I would recomned installing this script, which highlights various kinds of problems with shortened references in a clear and helpful manner. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 17:11, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The edit in question was put in not by me, but by CuriousCrafter123 two days ago. I've never used the "shortened footnote form", don't know how to use it or how to correct it when misused, and have already spent almost an hour trying unsuccessfully to understand it. If you want to revert CC123's edit, I won't object. I thought the content was relevant and well-sourced, but it's not crucial for this article. NightHeron (talk) 18:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, harv and sfn are not obvious the first few times. I've converted the reference. Best wishes, Wham2001 (talk) 19:51, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There has been some edit warring over this, and the claim has been made in an edit summary that the sentence misrepresents the source. I took the time to reread the relevant section just now, and I see the authors are quite clear that there isn't any real evidence that Jews (or Ashkenazi Jews in particular) in fact have higher IQs on average than other populations. As the authors emphasize, All available studies, however, are based on samples of convenience. They then go on to discuss the question of to what we should attribute the greater overall intellectual ability popularly attributed to Jews. But "popularly attributed" does not imply that there is in fact scientific evidence. The closest thing to evidence that they cite are two estimates comparing Jews in Britain and America to White non-Jews in the same countries, and one of these estimates is by notorious quack Richard Lynn. All that said, I'm not especially committed to retaining the edit, which was added by a brand new account (it's been discussed before, e.g., whether Jewish intelligence is relevant to this article at all, given that there is some question as to whether "Jewish" is a racial category) but I don't think that the rationale that was given for removing it in this instance makes sense. Generalrelative (talk) 01:42, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are confusing evidence with conclusive evidence. The authors explicitly state that there does exist weak evidence in favor of the proposition, and discuss it as if it were true. Note, for example, that rather than discussing why the belief may have come about that Ashki Jews have higher IQs, they instead discuss a theory that would explain a higher AJ average IQ. They describe the theory as "an intriguing suggestion", a descriptor very unlikely to be used about a theory of a mechanism explaining something you believe to be untrue.
For a couple other examples: other than this joke study, there have not been any studies done to the highest level of rigor to show that parachutes prevent death. Relative to the standard in the field (randomized controlled trials), the evidence we have that parachutes prevent death is weak. On the other hand, there is lots of strong evidence (RCTs, meta-analyses, the whole lot being peer-reviewed) of certain psychic abilities in humans (ESP). There's also equally strong evidence against. But while most people and scientists would likely say there is no chance ESP is real, the statement that there is no evidence of it is false, and the statement that there is only weak evidence that parachutes save lives is (technically) true.
You're right that "popularly attributed" doesn't imply that there is evidence, nor do I mean to suggest it does. However, you ignore the rest of the sentence: "supported by (weak) data". This is explicitly saying that there exists evidence, but that the evidence should not be taken as conclusive. I genuinely do not understand how this could be read any other way. Peaux (talk) 05:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I could scrawl any false statistics I wanted on on a cocktail napkin. Perhaps I could even find someone willing to described it as "intriguing". That napkin would, technically, be a kind of 'evidence', but to present it as "some evidence" would be either disingenuous or completely and dramatically missing the point. Richard Lynn's fringe pseudoscientific nonsense is just about as legitimate as that hypothetical napkin-scrawling would be. It's perfectly possible for a theory to be intriguing without being supported by a shred of real evidence. Grayfell (talk) 05:53, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That napkin would not be evidence. Samples of convenience, however, are. If your claim is that they all falsified data, as you hypothetically did on your hypothetical napkin, then you'd be right to say there is no evidence. But you have provided nothing to back up that claim, and the source cited certainly doesn't either.
You can say that you consider the data that exist to be nonsense, but the source cited in the article, supposedly by seven top scholars in the field, does not.
And you misunderstand the "intriguing" comment/argument. They are referring to the proposed mechanism, not the proposed effect, as intriguing; and my argument is that people generally do not consider proposed mechanisms for effects they believe not to exist, to be intriguing.
Again, they explicitly state that there does exist weak evidence of the proposition. Whether you believe that evidence or not, the statement that no evidence exists is false. Peaux (talk) 06:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are right that I haven't provided evidence that Lynn falsified his data, because this is a Wikipedia talk page and that would be WP:OR. Fortunately, dozens of published scientists have already done that work for us. We have already had many, many, many discussions of Lynn, as well as Cochran, Hardy, and Harpending, on these and related talk pages. This is junk science and per WP:FRINGE, should not be legitimized on Wikipedia. If you want real evidence that Lynn falsified, William H. Tucker (psychologist)'s work comes highly recommended, or if you want a more approachable work, Superior: The Return of Race Science is pretty good despite (and because) of the complaints of the scientific racists it documents. For Harpending etc., off the top of my head, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence (2nd nomination) is one previous discussion about this. As I mentioned on that discussion, they are not serious scholars and do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. If they are right about any aspect of their 'intriguing' theories, it's almost certainly a coincidence or "stopped-clock" kind of thing, and not because of the merits of their supposed research. Grayfell (talk) 06:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All that is well and good, but if true, then that would cast significant doubt on the legitimacy of the source cited in this article, which treats them as legitimate work. Peaux (talk) 06:56, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For those without access, here is an extended quotation from the article in question. Generalrelative (talk) 05:59, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

There is little good evidence about just what IQ levels are typical for Ashkenazi Jews. (There is even less evidence available for Sephardic Jews, and in the rest of this section “Jews” should be taken to mean “Ashkenazi Jews of Eu- ropean descent.”) Jewish IQs have been variously esti- mated to be 7–15 points higher than those of White non- Jews in Britain and America (Flynn, 1991; Lynn, 2004, 2006). All available studies, however, are based on samples of convenience. It is not clear to what we should attribute the greater overall intellectual ability popularly attributed to Jews and supported by (weak) data. It is certainly possible to invoke cultural explanations, and there are numerous armchair genetic theories as well. One genetic theory may have more substance to it than the others. This is the “sphingolipid” theory of Cochran, Hardy, and Harpending (2005). Coch- ran et al. noted that Jews are subject to several distinctive genetic conditions that involve an excess of sphingolip- ids—the substance that forms part of the insulating outer sheaths that allow nerve cells to transmit electrical signals and encourage growth of dendrites. These illnesses include Tay-Sachs disease, Niemann-Pick disease, and Gaucher’s disease. Having too many of these sphingolipids is fatal or at least likely to result in serious illness that can prevent reproduction. Why does natural selection not eliminate these diseases? Cochran et al. enlisted the sickle-cell ane- mia analogy. The sickle-cell gene produces illness for individuals who have two copies of it (one from each parent). But those with only one copy of the gene are provided with protection against malaria. Cochran et al. argued that because Jews were segregated into trade and finance since their arrival in Europe in the 8th century AD, intelligence conferred a larger reproductive advantage for them than for others. The main evidence in favor of the sphingolipid theory is that Jews with Gaucher’s disease are more likely to be working in occupations demanding ex- tremely high IQ than are other Jews. No direct test of the association of the genes for these diseases with intelligence has been made, so the theory remains merely an intriguing suggestion. It is important to note that even at the highest esti- mates we have of Jewish IQ, Jewish accomplishment ex- ceeds what would be predicted on the basis of IQ alone. Nisbett (2009) has argued that the numbers of Jewish Ivy Leaguers, professors at elite colleges, Supreme Court clerks, and Nobel Prize winners are greater than one would expect even if average Jewish IQ were 115. He has also noted that remarkable as the superior achievement of Jews is, the achievement difference between Jews and non-Jews is far less extreme than differences between groups in many other comparisons that cannot be explained on purely ge- netic grounds, such as the achievements of the Italians versus the English in the 15th century, of the English versus the Italians after the 18th century, of Arabs versus Europeans in the 8th century, of Europeans versus Arabs after the 14th century, and of New Englanders versus Southerners throughout American history.

I'm going to leave aside the bulk of what you're arguing because it seems to me to be a barrel of red herrings (if you'll forgive the phrase). The fact of the matter is that Cochran et al.'s hypothesis is in no way evidence that Jews have higher IQs than others. I will say, by the way, that I find the use of the term "IQ advantage" to be misleading (the sources sometimes use it, unfortunately, but not in this instance). We're really just talking about average performance on a specific set of tests, and in order to make claims about that we'd need systematic studies, i.e. most certainly not "samples of convenience". And the authors are clear that such systematic studies did not exist at the time of writing. Generalrelative (talk) 06:14, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand my argument. Of course, a hypothesis is not evidence. However, the fact that the authors of the source discussed a hypothesized mechanism for the proposed effect is evidence that they, who (I believe) you described as seven top scholars in the field, find the proposed effect credible enough to care about how it might be explained. The hypothesis isn't evidence, but the fact that they discuss it is evidence they believe to some extent in the effect you claim there is no evidence for. As for whether samples of convenience should be considered evidence, you're right that they are not sufficiently conclusive evidence. But you are substituting your personal judgement for that of the authors of the source. They explicitly describe the effect in question as "supported by (weak) data". You have consistently ignored that the text of the source directly contradicts the claim made in the article.

I'll also note, the standards you propose are an isolated demand for rigor. There are lots of effects in psychology for which the only evidence is samples of convenience (college students in psych classes or in general). We do not describe those effects as being supported by "no evidence". Peaux (talk) 06:52, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence of Ashkenazi Jewish IQ advantage

The article currently reads "There is no evidence for a Jewish IQ advantage." This statement is not supported by the article cited. I'll outline here the relevant section of the article, "Jewish—Non-Jewish Differences in IQ". The first paragraph says there is "little good evidence" about the IQ of Ashkenazi Jews, then citing three studies which provide some evidence of higher Ashkenazi Jewish IQ; they say these studies are samples of convenience. They seem to be convinced that such a difference exists. Rather than arguing there is no difference, they instead go on to discuss in the second paragraph the source of the difference, focusing on Cochran et al.'s sphingolipid explanation. They do not believe there is strong enough evidence in favor of this theory, but still do not believe to be affirmatively untrue, as they still regard it to be "an intriguing suggestion". In their third paragraph, they note that even the highest estimates of Ashkenazi Jewish IQ wouldn't account for the observed differences in Ashkenazi Jewish accomplishment. This is the entirety of their treatment of Ashkenazi Jewish IQ.

There is no bad-faith interpretation here, this is the straightforward, plain reading of the source material. Even if you think one source is sufficient to establish the existence of academic consensus, this source does not suffice, as it directly contradicts the claim currently made in the article. The authors explicitly say that there exists evidence/data in favor of the proposition. Where am I wrong here?

If you wanted to say "According to such-and-such authors, there is 'little good evidence' for an Ashkenazi Jewish IQ advantage", that would be supported by the source, though it would be somewhat biased towards what you want to be true. But the claim that there is no evidence is straightforwardly false. Peaux (talk) 01:47, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See my post just above where I address this. Let's limit the conversation to a single thread. Thanks, Generalrelative (talk) 01:52, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]