Talk:Jimmy Savile

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2023

Remove "sir" from his name as knighthood is removed upon death otherwise it would have been revoked as stated later in the article. 2A02:C7E:5A15:F500:D157:1136:F367:3C46 (talk) 08:47, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 08:59, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/oct/09/jimmy-savile-knighthood

There's your consensus. 85.255.234.79 (talk) 11:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Knighthood

any reference to his knighthood and title of sir should be removed from the Wikipedia article.

The UK parliament cabinet office confirmed the title is a living one and ceases to exist when the holder dies. Therefore he is just Jimmy Savile.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/oct/09/jimmy-savile-knighthood 85.255.234.79 (talk) 11:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

The knighthood part is incorrect as hes deceased and if he was alive it would of been stripped... so the person editing this page needs to remove it! 2A02:C7C:8AA1:FA00:25FF:9DCD:D47A:F57E (talk) 20:53, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Jimmy Savile The Philanthropist

The use of the word 'philanthropist' is comical in English Wikipedia. The word translates to 'a lover of humanity', which means a person who has dedicated his/her life to helping other people. Here it's used as a title ANY rich person can buy with money. Ukas (talk) 11:47, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

His Sir title should be removed!

Disgusting he’s even on Wikipedia 86.15.39.17 (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Remove "Sir" he is dead. If he were alive he would be relieved of this title, he was not worthy of in the first place. 74.73.67.245 (talk) 01:28, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Removal of knighthood title

He died 12 yrs ago and should of had his "sir" title removed by Wikipedia then. Canman57 (talk) 20:20, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

See the section, Aftermath 'Most of Savile's honours were rescinded following the sexual abuse claims. As a knighthood expires when the holder dies, it cannot be posthumously revoked. Episodes of Top of the Pops hosted by him are not repeated.' Knitsey (talk) 20:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

The Reckoning

At the moment, I'm watching The Reckoning on iPlayer, with my jaw on the floor. Episode 2 shows Savile presenting a Christmas edition of Songs of Praise in Yorkshire, something that he never did as far as I can see. This occurs at the same time as he receives his OBE, so it is presumably meant to be around Christmas 1971. It also has a subplot about a girl who committed suicide after meeting Savile on Top of the Pops and the subsequent investigation, also not based on fact. It seems to be based on Claire McAlpine, who killed herself at the age of 15 and left behind a note making allegations against several disc jockeys. In episode 2, a young girl is shown being raped by Savile after an episode of TOTP, then killing herself. To be fair to Savile (difficult I know) there is no clear evidence that this event actually happened. At the start of the show there is a disclaimer saying "some names have been changed and some scenes created for dramatic purposes." Even so, some of the inaccuracies here are astonishing. While this is more on topic at The Reckoning, we do need to look at ways of pointing out that some of this is fictionalised. ♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

In this BBC article and interview with the writers, McKay and Pope, they clearly state that some parts and some characters have been fictionalised. That should be made clear - not necessarily on this page, but certainly at The Reckoning. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:29, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

In Episode 3, Savile is shown with his newly published book Stranger Danger and the Animals of Primrose Wood, which is supposed to be "Educating children about strangers" (screenshot). This never happened and is almost satirical. Episode 4 shows Savile as angry that his appearance on the final edition of Top of the Pops in July 2006 is very short; "I'm barely on screen thirty fucking seconds", he says to the production team. In real life, Savile was in Lochaber for the Highland Games during the weekend when the final TOTP was made, so he appears only a few times in some pre-recorded inserts. In Episode 4, Savile is shown drinking brandy and has a half empty glass next to his dead body (screenshot) Savile was not known as a drinker, and had been in ill health and suffering from pneumonia.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:40, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

If inconsistencies and errors like this are mentioned in articles about the TV series, they can be covered in the page about the series. I'm not sure of the point of mentioning them here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:46, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

OK, just to clarify, there is a 1985 book by Irene Keller called Benjamin Rabbit and The Stranger Danger for which Savile wrote an introduction.[1]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but what I don't understand is why you are setting out that information here? If these errors etc. are relevant to the Wikipedia page about the dramatisation, and if they're mentioned in published reviews, they can be mentioned over there. But you are just reporting your own original research, are you not? All this article needs to say is that the dramatisation is partly fictionalised - no need to go into the details. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:05, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

There is now a Telegraph source that mentions some of this.[2]. Definitely needs a mention at The Reckoning. Martinevans123 says that the Songs of Praise appearance was Christmas 1969 [3] not 1971 as is stated on screen, because Savile has just been sent a letter giving him an OBE. Thanks Martin.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I've started a paragraph at The Reckoning (2023 TV series). Open to expansion, of course. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

"Introduced by Jimmy Savile who for several years has been an honorary churchwarden of the Anglican Parish Church in the village of Craggvale..." Martinevans123 (talk) 16:53, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Martin. Like many BBC TV programmes from the 1960s, (Doctor Who etc) the original quad tape of this is probably now lost forever. There don't seem to be any clips from it anywhere, which at least spares the BBC's embarrassment if people saw it today.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Time/date of death and do "fingers crossed" bear mentioning?

How exactly do we know his time/date of death? According to one article, his nephew, Roger Foster, said he "passed away quietly in his sleep during the night". This makes it unclear if Savile died on the night of October 28, or the early hours of the 29th. Should the article also mention, if there's any truth to the claim, that Savile was found with his fingers crossed? The claim suggests he was hoping for the best in what waited him in death. Grimly, some accounts suggest he had a smile on his face. One hopes that it was the face contorting, depending how long he had been dead for. If the original calim could be found, it could be added within the events' timeline of the article along with attribution, in the last paragraph of the "death" section worded something along the lines of: "According to some reports, Savile had a smile upon his face and his fingers were crossed." 92.23.219.201 (talk) 20:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd be astonished if any source meeting WP:RS requirements ever published such a claim. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if Dan Davies' book can be regarded as a reliable source but it is one of the earliest mentions of the "fingers crossed". {https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1iFhBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT7&lpg=PT7&dq=jimmy+savile+fingers+crossed&source=bl&ots=DteGJcBeHY&sig=ACfU3U0-8XK5EghD2Bz4E22iikqOolvKSQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiNy5OZ7-6BAxUqhP0HHQcYBnM4ChDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=jimmy%20savile%20fingers%20crossed&f=false} Some articles omit the "smile", probably because the idea that he died with one final taunt is an image, that even the people he abused, can't get out of their heads. Intestingly, "The reckoning" has him in his armchair, rather than bed, and seems to have his face natural (with one viewer suggesting that the writer implied he died fearful of the idea he was going to Hell). One hopes that the quote, unquote, "smile" was a facial spasm. 92.23.219.201 (talk) 20:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I would hope for something to have an expert on a claim that Savile's facial expression was described "smiling when he was found dead" and I want to be very specific about the particulars. There has to be an original source, if someone had to asserting that there was a certain expression upon his face immediately before he dued and that this expression remained (after he was basically dead). While one shudders to consider the possibly Savile was smiling when he died, and that he somehow retained some measure of the expression after passing, I do not find it beyond the realm of possibility that Savile was smiling preceding his death and immediately thereafter dying but physically retaining his last conscious expression. This would also put some doubt on the claim by Foster that he died in his sleep. If there's any truth to the "fingers crossed" claim, that he had to have been aware he was dying, and not asleep, unless that also was a spasm of the body after death. 92.23.219.201 (talk) 21:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The main source for the fingers crossed claim seems to be Dan Davies' book, which is also the main source of The Reckoning. News reports at the time said that Savile "passed away quietly in his sleep during the night." Probably best to leave out the fingers crossed without clearer sourcing.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC)