Talk:Lyndon B. Johnson

Descriptions of LBJ's legacy

I want to be transparent about a recent change I made to the public image and legacy sections; I removed one Kent Germany quote that was largely redundant with another historian's evaluation immediately preceding, and I adjusted the summary of Germany's assessment from "poor" to "evolving" as I believe that better matches the spirit of the quote as well as better aligning with the summary of such in the lead. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:32, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Death place

I am trying to determine what should be in the "death place" section in the infobox. This is a relatively minor matter but it actually is something I stumbled upon a while ago and I don't think has been fully resolved. The understanding of events is that Johnson had a heart attack at his ranch on January 22, 1973, and was airlifted to San Antonio where he was pronounced DOA. Right now, the IB says that he died in Johnson City, Texas, pointing to this source, which begins: "Lyndon Baines Johnson, 36th President of the United States, died today of an apparent heart attack suffered at his ranch in Johnson City, Tex."

However, I do not think this should be the correct assessment of the information based on what we know, and the claim in that source appears to conflict with a more detailed description of the area where Johnson lived. He resided at a ranch in Texas, which is part of the Lyndon B. Johnson National Historical Park. According to the National Park Service website, the ranch itself "is located 14 miles west of Johnson City near Stonewall, Texas". The Johnson City segment of the park is a geographically distinct area which covers his boyhood home and a visitors center. The ranch where he lived is not in Johnson City and not connected to that segment of the park, but rather near Stonewall, which would indicate Gillespie County, Texas as the "place" of death, as much as it is the place of birth; the Park website says that "The LBJ Ranch was where he was born, lived, died, and was buried". The article was arranged to have Gillespie County as the birth and death place for a while (I might have done this but I can't recall).

A third option would just be to list his death place as San Antonio, since this is where he was legally pronounced dead. But that is probably a bit too legalistic.

Pinging @Omnis Scientia as the editor who set the current configuration in the IB.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 16:15, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

It is quite confusing. I searched a lot of sources from then and based my final decision based newspaper accounts from then and books which say Johnson became unresponsive en route to San Antonio. That I understood from it was that they airlifted him from Johnson City which was where he became completely unresponsive. What is clear is he was not in Stonewall (certainly not the LBJ Ranch) or in San Antonio when it happened.

If you think there credible sources which say otherwise then go ahead and change it but make sure to add it to the "Death and funeral" section as a reference. -- Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:14, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

As of now, I'd be more inclined to switch it back to Gillespie County, as I assumed the existing sourcing was stronger to support him dying at the ranch and that ranch being in Gillespie County (not Johnson City, which is in a different county). There are passages in the NYT article that seem to strongly imply that Johnson had in all probability died at the ranch before he was even transported (and the existing sourcing supports the notion that the NYT erred in saying the ranch was in Johnson City proper), but it's hard to go with that alone because the only fact it can directly confirm is just when he was pronounced DOA at San Antonio.

However, I was unaware of reporting that confirmed he was airlifted from Johnson City specifically. If there are sources that could be added to that effect, then that could help verify it as a plausible death place. In the end it's a very peculiar situation, where the answer depends on how we're phrasing the question (since the location where his heart stopped was not where he was pronounced dead), considering all of the transportation through rural areas and municipalities and eventually by air. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 20:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I think, until solid proof that says otherwise, it is better to revert back to Gillespie County, Texas. I went back and found accounts contradicting each other, including the NY Times article I added.

I would also be okay with San Antonio IF we get a general consensus from others here whether or not the location of the legal declaration of death is allowed (I'm not entirely sure). As far as I can tell, it's the only confirmed fact we know of. The rest is, as you say, a very peculiar situation given where it started and ended. -- Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:03, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I will revert it back to Gillespie County and clarify its use with the existing sources. I think there have been articles where the location of legal declaration of death have been used, but often it was less ambiguous than this case, where at least the slight plurality of sources I've looked at seem to suggest he died at the ranch but it is not in any way unanimous. Regardless, I think Gillespie County is supported by multiple sources that are available and so it makes sense to use at least for now. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 01:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I support the Gillespie County approach. The preponderance of sources support this, and even one of the sources quoted above ("airlifted to San Antonio where he was pronounced DOA") indicates that he was dead before reaching San Antonio; that is what DOA literally means. There are established accounts of his Secret Service detail finding him dead in his bedroom at the ranch and I'm not aware of any convincing evidence to the contrary. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 02:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Heart attacks

It is believed Johnson had five heart attacks, although only three are confirmed. (Aardi18 (talk) 19:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC))

Can you improve the article by adding a reliable source for the believed/confirmed numbers? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 22:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Here is one source that could be used: https://www.drmirkin.com/histories-and-mysteries/lyndon-baines-johnson-1908-1973.html (Aardi18 (talk) 11:17, 3 November 2023 (UTC))

Roe v. Wade

There's only one reason that Roe v. wade should mentioned in the section on the death and funeral: most Americans remember the day that LBJ died as the day that SCOTUS handed down the landmark Roe v. Wade ruling. January 22, 1973 is mentioned almost every year as it was also the day of the ruling and the news of LBJ's passing overshadowed the ruling. No mention of Roe v. Wade (since overturned) will be mentioned until we reach a consensus. Please mention if it should be mentioned that both the passing and ruling happened on the same day. SnoopyAndCharlieBrown202070 (talk) 11:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Stop it. Your idea didn't get any traction the last time you suggested it, and nothing has changed since then. Binksternet (talk) 15:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Tyler served in all four elected federally elected positions of the U.S. government - must be added

The introduction states that Lyndon Johnson is one of just three people to serve in all four federally elected positions of the U.S. government (President, Vice President, Senator and Representative) along with Andrew Johnson and Richard Nixon. But he is one of FOUR as John Tyler also did so (President 1841-45, Vice President 1841, Senator 1827-1836 & Representative 1816-21). Can this please be changed to reflect that. I don't have editing permission and think it is hugely important. Thank you. 2A02:C7C:392C:1A00:85BC:4A0B:DDD4:DB76 (talk) 11:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Are we counting people who were elected to the presidency? Neither Tyler nor A. Johnson were elected. So, either add Tyler or remove the earlier Johnson. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The sentence currently reads: 'Johnson is one of only three, along with Richard Nixon and Andrew Johnson, to have served in all four federally elected positions of the U.S. government.'

Tyler needs to be added. Four people have served in all four federally elected positions of the U.S. government , NOT THREE.

Whether they were elected to the presidency or not is irrelevant. 2A02:C7C:392C:1A00:8C95:7756:D1A0:B66A (talk) 12:52, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

We can always change the wording, as I think whether a person is elected to the office on their own merits, and not just succeeding by the accident of the previous president dying in office, is relevant, especially in Nixon's case, where he didn't have the advantage of incumbency, as LBJ did. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

True - but either way needs to be changed. Thank you very much for your help. Personally I think it makes most sense simply to add Tyler and make it four (given that A Johnson, like Tyler, ascended to the presidency due to the death of the incumbent is already there). 2A02:C7C:392C:1A00:4471:3FB9:D477:7F0E (talk) 11:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)