Talk:Yasuke

Problematic sources in recent edit re-introducing the troublesome "samurai" title

@Gloveup37 added a paragraph in the lede in this edit, giving an edit summary that this "Added an important background detail that is well supported." However, the supporting references are themselves problematic: Britannica (another encyclopedia, no primary sources given), the Smithsonian Magazine article (link) already discussed above as unsuitable as a source (currently at the bottom of the Talk:Yasuke#Request for comment on samurai terminology section), the Lockley and Girard book African Samurai (Google Books link), also discussed above as unsuitable (in both the Talk:Yasuke#Samurai and Talk:Yasuke#Lockley 2016, Lockley 2017, and Lockley 2019? sections), and apparently also relying on a French article from Radio France Internationale (link), which itself provides no primary sources, doesn't define "samurai", and reads like a pop-culture piece.

Here, I address just Britannica.

The Britannica.com article about Yasuke at https://www.britannica.com/biography/Yasuke claims that Yasuke was granted the title of "samurai", without explaining their own sources. Their article about "samurai" at https://www.britannica.com/topic/samurai is vague in its defintion of the term and is inconsistent with what I've read in other more-detailed sources, with Britannica's content seeming to state that anyone who was a warrior from the 1100s through to 1868 was also a samurai, which is patently wrong — the categories of 武士 (bushi, "warrior [as a job]") and 侍 (samurai, "samurai [as a member of a specific hereditary social class]") are definitely distinct, such that even Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the second of Japan's three unifiers (after Oda Nobunaga, before Tokugawa Ieyasu), was pointedly described as not a samurai, due to his family's agricultural background.

• Britannica's article also claims that "As a samurai, Yasuke would have fought in several battles for Nobunaga, though the exact number is unknown." This is temporally problematic.

Based on historical dating alone, we know that Yasuke met Oda Nobunaga in March 1581. The Honnō-ji Incident was in June 1582, after which Yasuke was effectively banished from Japan.

March 1581 to June 1582 is only about 15 or 16 months.

Looking at a timeline of events during the Sengoku period, the only battles listed during that period are the Second Tenshō Iga War in autumn 1581, and the Honnō-ji Incident in June 1582. These are the only battles that Yasuke could have possibly participated in, without being a time traveler.

• We have zero records indicating that Yasuke was present for the Second Tenshō Iga War, and we do have records indicating that Oda Nobunaga himself was not present. Given that Yasuke was a personal attendant to Oda Nobunaga, we can infer that Yasuke was not a participant in the Second Tenshō Iga War.

• We do have records indicating that Yasuke was present for the Honnō-ji Incident, and that he did indeed fight. This is, as far as I know, the only battle for which we have historical records stating that Yasuke was a participant.

• Britannica's article also claims that "It is possible that Yasuke served as Nobunaga’s kaishakunin, a designated second in the ritual who beheads the man dying by seppuku." This is also problematic, not on time-traveling grounds but due to a disagreement with other known sources.

We have records indicating that Yasuke was not Nobunaga's attendant for his seppuku, as Nobunaga shut himself alone inside an inner chamber of the Honnō temple complex as his final witnessed act. See also Honnō-ji_Incident#Scene_of_the_incident. Confusingly, the last sentence of that section states that someone named Kamata Shinsuke served as Nobunaga's seppuku assistant; at any rate, it wasn't Yasuke.

We do read that a fellow named 森成利 (Mori Naritoshi), also known as 森蘭丸 (Mori Ranmaru), and his brothers were helping defend Oda Nobunaga right up to the end. Mori himself was killed by someone named 安田国継 (Yasuda Kunitsugu). The account of Luis Frois, the Jesuit who introduced Oda to Yasuke, also appears to corroborate that Oda Nobunaga shut himself alone into an interior room.

In the absence of anything scholarly that 1) defines the word "samurai" for purposes of the text, and 2) claims that Yasuke himself was specifically granted this title / social rank, I am removing "samurai" from the "Rank" field in the right-hand info-box, and adding clarifying text that whether to call Yasuke a "samurai" depends very much on how one defines the term -- as much of this talk page also discusses. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

In the lead section, Toyotomi Hideyoshi was described as a samurai Merzostin (talk) 15:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Our article here continues to have various issues; not sure about your point in bringing up Toyotomi? Also, Toyotomi isn't mentioned until about a third of the way into the article, not in the lede...? (Honest confusion on my part, no snark intended.) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

"are definitely distinct, such that even Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the second of Japan's three unifiers (after Oda Nobunaga, before Tokugawa Ieyasu), was pointedly described as not a samurai, due to his family's agricultural background" Hideyoshi was described as a samurai in his page Sacchisachi Merzostin (talk) 23:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I think I might see where the confusion lies.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi died with the social status / rank of samurai, but he was not born to that social station.

In the [[Toyotomi Hideyoshi]] article, in the [[#Early life]] section, we have this:

Hideyoshi had no traceable samurai lineage, and his father Kinoshita Yaemon was an ashigaru – a peasant employed by the samurai as a foot soldier.

Arguably, he was not part of the samurai hereditary noble social class until he married into it in 1561, as mentioned in the [[#Service under Nobunaga]] section: his wife One had family connections to the Taira and Minamoto clans, as well as the imperial family itself. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:38, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

thank you. from the future MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This article might need a semi-protection

Idk if this is the right place to ask for it, but basically the trailer for that new Ubisoft game is out, the game has Yasuke in it, and racists who don't know anything about history are now out and about vandalizing the page. We might have to protect/semi-protect this page for a while. Anzasquiddles (talk) 17:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Wtf are you talking about? Ubisoft is spreading false information by calling Yasuke a 'historical samurai' which he was not, as this Wiki-article also says.

The article should be protected, though, because woke-authoritarians are likely to try and change it, making Yasuke a samurai for their agenda. 178.24.248.178 (talk) 17:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

But... you vandalized it. We can see your edit history.

Yes it needs protection though.

Yasuke was NOT a Samurai. He was a Kosho, which were often Samurai but not always. There is no evidence or historical accounts of him being a Samurai. Calling him a Samurai is historical revisionism and a result of poor Circular Reporting (the hundreds of articles referring to him as one without verification or evidence of any kind - random articles online are NOT credible sources, when discussing a topic like this, only historical evidence matters, not modern misinformation). Until we have undeniable, verifiable evidence of any historical accounts confirming him as a samurai, he was not.

I repeat: calling him a Samurai is historical revisionism and based on no evidence and not professional enough for Wikipedia. People without any understanding of source evaluation should refrain from editing articles. This won't happen so can a moderator PLEASE add a section detailing that there is no evidence he was a Samurai and lock it already?

The edit history is a mess of unprofessionalism and revisionism. Acdenton (talk) 19:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

He was likely a samurai. Retainers were almost always samurai. According to the below Oxford university source. To explicitly say he was not is unnecessary commentary that is only producing racist and negative remarks because a recent video game was announced.

https://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/index.php/tour-by-region/oceania/asia/arms-and-armour-asia-133/index.html#:~:text=A%20retainer%20refers%20to%20a,practical%20than%20many%20samurai%20armours. Mmsnjd (talk) 00:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

almost always and then you give a link to... amor? ok where does it say YASUKE was that?

this is BAD. this is against wikipedia's source MisteOsoTruth (talk) 01:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No one is taking you seriously when you pull the racist card.

There were lots of Retainers that weren’t Samurai. Yasuke was also a unique case as he was not only an outsider but a slave, and as such it would require convincing evidence to suggest he was a Samurai. Such evidence does not exist. Exclusif66 (talk) 09:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

私は塩飽系の日本人で、日本の戦争文化の歴史家でもあります。

あなたの問題は人種差別主義者にあるわけではありません。あなたの問題は、編集者が弥助について誤って主張したこの重大な不正確さを正そうとする日本人にあります。

弥助は武士ではありませんでした。弥助にはその称号は与えられておらず、また、弥助は日本の土地NOR支配権を持っていなかった。

このトピックには半保護も必要ありません (私の土地の歴史の修正主義者によるものでない限り) いかなる保護も必要ありません。

弥助は決して「武士」である（とされる）という不条理な主張に修正されるべきではなかった。

(Now, in English):

I am Japanese (of Shiwaku descent), and I am also a historian on Japanese Warfare culture.

Your problem is NOT with racists. Your problem is with The Japanese that aim to correct this grave inaccuracy that an editor ERRONEOUSLY CLAIMS of Yasuke.

Yasuke was NOT a Samurai. He was not given it's title, nor had Yasuke held land NOR control in Japan.

This topic does NOT need semi-protection, nor ANY protection (unless it's from the revisionist of my land's history.

Yasuke should NEVER have been revised to the absurd claim that he was (allegedly) a "Samurai". ICHIRO SHIWAKU (talk) 19:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand the frustration you feel right now. However, considering that the page is constantly being modified by some contributors to remove the part stating there could be no historical documentation supporting the claim that Yasuke is a "Samurai". I do admit that I may not have the sufficient knowledge towards this topic, but I do believe some sort of protection is needed to protect this page from vandalism. Especially when this changes (of removing captioned section) does not come with a reliable source and the ongoing dispute seems to occur after the release of a Ubisoft game trailer. WyvernTsunHo (talk) 19:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

それを保護するのであれば、実際の歴史分析に基づいて保護する必要があります。つまり、弥助が武士ではないことが明らかな場合である。

「弥助が武士であるという史料はない」という考えは、「弥助は武士ではなかった…」と明確にして、家臣としての役割と家臣としての奴婢に対する責務を明確にするべきであるという考えは、何の意味も持たなかった。戦闘。

とはいえ、このトピックを保護することが何を意味するのかがわかりました。私は、弥助が最も偉大な武士であると何らかの形でほのめかされている最近の編集がウィキリークスの誠実さを損なうものであり、封建制の日本史を修正する上で恥ずべきものであるという前提で、この編集にアドバイスしたいと思います。

(English):

If it is to be protected, then it should be on the actual historical analysis. That is, in the instance that it be clear that Yasuke is NOT a Samurai.

The notion that "it is no historical documentation that "Yasuke" is a Samurai" should be clarified as "Yasuke was not a Samurai...", and then clarify his role as a vassal and his charge with the slaves as a retainer, bore no combat.

Right now, there also remains question, as to just how supposedly accurate that the character of "Yasuke" exist, and to what capacity. But of what is known and mostly agreed (in consensus on discussions over the years), "Yasuke" served in ways that assisted Azuchi Castle, and later Hono-ji grounds.

All said, I now understand what is meant by protecting this topic. I would advise it, on the premise that the recent edit, implying Yasuke being somehow implied as the greatest samurai, is damaging to the integrity of Wikileaks, and is shameful in revising Feudal Japanese History. ICHIRO SHIWAKU (talk) 20:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t really have any comment to make on this discussion but can you please not use google translated Japanese. It doesn’t aid the discussion in any way and it clogs up the talk page. Emolication (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

これはGoogle翻訳ではありません。 何に巻き込まれているのかわからない。 ICHIRO SHIWAKU (talk) 22:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t care if you admit it or not just stop doing it. You’re (broken) Japanese is identical to what google translate spits out when I input your English text. Emolication (talk) 23:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If you're writing in Japanese and translating to English yourself, would you care to explain the "NOR" in this sentence in your previous post: "弥助は日本の土地NOR支配権を持っていなかった"? It looks like a remnant of machine translation from your English "He was not given it's title, nor had Yasuke held land NOR control in Japan" where the translator assumed "NOR" was an abbreviation. SimLibrarian (talk) 06:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

please lock it down. there's no proof he was . i dont' know why they do it but a lie for even a good reason is historical revisionist. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 01:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It's a video game. Why is everyone taking this so seriously? Mike Allen 01:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I think people are mostly frustrated over the leftist lies that are allowed to stand on some gaming related subs. Exclusif66 (talk) 09:25, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

left right, it doesn't matter at all. this is the talk page of the real life figure and this has to not have lies. right or left. no ideology, just truth.

and for some reason some people can't have that. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

this isn't the video game page. and history and truth .. that's why people are taking seriously! the game can do what ever it wants. THIS however is a matter of fact. facts are precious. read 1984 MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

there's been debate long before but who is changing it and why? a troll? Ubisoft to try and get money for the game? or someone who thinks this edit and calling Yasuke a samurai will some how stop racism?

the accusations of racism against those not liking inaccuracy aren't helping either. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

there's been debate long before but who is changing it and why? a troll? Ubisoft to try and get money for the game? or someone who thinks this edit and calling Yasuke a samurai will some how stop racism?

the accusations of racism against those not liking inaccuracy aren't helping either.

With the times and ideologies and division how it is. external from this article and possibly part of the industry.. and society... this is all just a mess MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

According to Japanese records of the time, Yasuke received "扶持" from Nobunaga.

This suggests that Yasuke was treated as a samurai, even though he was the last in line, unlike ordinary servants and peasants, even if Nobunaga was just playing around with him.

He was treated like a bodyguard and did not participate in the war, but it is not accurate to say that he did not fight at all, since he did participate in the battle at the Honnoji Incident and was taken prisoner.

Perhaps it is actually closer to the fact that Nobunaga treated a rare black man as a samurai for fun and placed him under his guard.

This is not strange, since the status system in Japan did not become strict until the Edo period (1603-1867), and during the Azuchi-Momoyama period (1568-1600), status was still ambiguous in many areas. 2405:6582:3740:3A00:B526:2B96:98D4:B045 (talk) 04:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"He was treated like a bodyguard and did not participate in the war..."

In no source does it say he was treated as a "bodyguard", he did fight ONCE at the Honnō-ji Incident and that's it which is recounted by one of the Jesuits and he surrender to Mitsuhide Ackechi's vassal, I'm sorry that is not "evidence" that he was a samurai. he was just, as far as record shows, a retainer and that's it, one fight is not a justification. Why are you people trying to change historic accuracy because of a videogame? Stop being childish.

"This is not strange, since the status system in Japan did not become strict until the Edo period (1603-1867)"

No I'm pretty sure it was strict even back then, Toyotomi Hideyoshi(the second of Japan's three unifiers) was pointed as not a samurai because of his family's agricultural background (you can see that on Hideyoshi's #Early life), he wasn't considered one until he married his wife One in 1561.

So you're just wrong and way to lax with History. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 11:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

it's worse than lax. it's an untruth. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Few details are known about him

Hello. The article reads: "Few details are known about him, including his date of birth, family structure, place of birth, ethnicity and native language." The wording is a bit strange here, atleast to me as a non-native speaker. It makes it sound like we know these things about him, but judging from the context those are probably meant to be all/some of the things we don't know. Maybe someone could look that passage over. Irrwichtel (talk) 17:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

it seems that there's a lot of unknown details that are people are calling them Samurai when we don't know if he's a retainer or not. that there's a lot of edits simply because of the announcement of the video game and I'm not so sure that this is according to Wikipedia standards we can see the difference and the edits and when they were made. I believe that this to be very suspicious and some of them are made that they are asserting the unknown information as absolute fact and also changing retainer to Samurai and all the like when we don't know if he had any proper title or land.everything seems a little mixed up and I have a link to the way back machine to how it was originally done sometime before all of the May 15th nonsense. I think Wikipedia is integrity is on the line with all these very strange edits. I am very new here and so I'm not sure what would be the best Affair or how to deal with this and luckily this time around I have Wikipedia as its own source and the way back machine. it seems that people are trying to bend this for reasons I dare not speculate as to why and many different camps and I dare not speculate their motives for that. I don't want historical revisionism to happen. and I'm not sure anyone else besides those doing the edits wanted either. but it seems that this is trying to sell a video game rather than be accurate. and this is very concerning. what should we do what is best to do?

[1] MisteOsoTruth (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Whether Yasuke had 'any proper title or land' is not relevant to whether he was a samurai or not (this is not the condition for being a samurai, social class is - the very Wikipedia page on Samurai describes them as being "the well-paid retainers of the daimyo, the great feudal landholders. They had high prestige and special privileges"). "Retainer" and "Samurai" are by no means mutually exclusive.

According to another source cited on this page, "Yasuke (弥助) was a retainer of Oda Nobunaga, and kashindan samurai". The Wikipedia page on the Sengoku period describes the period as being "marked by the loosening of samurai culture, with people born into other social strata sometimes making a name for themselves as warriors and thus becoming samurai" - a description that seems particularly apt for Yasuke given the historical record.

Whilst there may not be any historical source that explicitly describes Yasuke as samurai, most historians on the matter agree that overall, the evidence suggests it is more likely than not Yasuke would fall under the definition of Samurai. For the sake of consistency and historical accuracy, Yasuke should be described as a retainer of Oda Nobunaga whose social class likely attributed him the status of Samurai. JuliusRoxas (talk) 01:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

but that is conjecture at best. it seems like you have other ulterior motives to try and do this and omitting the phrase " "Few details are known about him, including his date of birth, family structure, place of birth, ethnicity and native language." is a Lie by omission. you're saying it's unsure but the edits of the Wikipedia calling him a samurai is absolutely sure. there's something that doesn't match and something that doesn't track MisteOsoTruth (talk) 01:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with including the apparently accurate phrase: "Few details are known about him, including his date of birth, family structure, place of birth, ethnicity and native language." Very few things can we be absolutely certain about, particularly in history. But it is historical consensus that it is more likely than not that Yasuke was considered a Samurai at the time he lived and by modern definitions of the word. Hence, describing him as being Samurai would not be misleading or inaccurate - although for the sake of ensuring people do not think that there is no doubt whatsoever on the issue, I do not see a problem with including a phrase stating that it is possible he was not a Samurai or that we do not know for certain - but to argue that he was definitely not a Samurai or unlikely to be one (eg by calling it a myth) is simply ahistorical. JuliusRoxas (talk) 01:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

On reading again I agree with Irrwichtel in their original comment that the phrase needs rewording. JuliusRoxas (talk) 02:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, acknowledging the possibility he may not have been considered a samurai by both the standards of the time he lived and by modern standards is one thing, but to claim that it is categorically a myth is unnecessary and ahistorical. Theozilla (talk) 02:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You're free to provide sourced but all if not most of the sources linked in this page for all I've seen are articles who very loosely claim him as a "Samurai" or lockley who was already proven to be an unreliable source years ago to claim he actually was WOULD be ahistorical or innacurate because he wasn't, the only fact IS that he was a retainer not a samurai historical consensus pales in contrast with clear facts, for the sake of clarity I'm okay with stating It possible he could've been thought as a Samurai or it could've been disputed, but sticking to facts he 1-Fought once and the recounting of it by Froi's writing didn't even state clearly if it was him who rushed to the Nobunaga's son's castle to fight (it COULD be intuited but again that wouldn't be reliable), 2-Oda assigned him as a retainer, 3-He was vanished after the Honne-ji incident, that's it, again we don't care about the accuracy of a game we're talking real history here nor "theories" or "assumptions". Hopefull Innformer (talk) 13:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Right. Thankyou.

But with this coinciding with the game coming out. could it be trolls or Ubisoft itself? could it be Critical theorists or racists? Could it be people believing him a Samurai? and for what reason? If they don't believe it and are changing it as such... why?

I can understand people railing against "leftists" or DEI and ESG, personally i've seen a lot of false history and consultants and bad things witht he best intentions...

but there's no way to tell. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it's silly to think Ubisoft would even care about a Wikipedia page, most likely is people from twitter, it already has happened to some articles in Wikipedia on the Anime sections, and also with the Cleopatra page when that Netflix show came out, is just people who don't care for integrity or accuracy which again is weird because is not like this Wikipedia page is going to change anything from that Ubisoft game, I'm puzzled by this unnecessary effort by people because they will gain nothing out of this. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 14:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

i think they do gain. do you know about the "long march through institutions" and Gramsci? How Critical Theorists and the hoax papers? Helen Pluckroses' new book?

it's all political. it is to control. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

What the fuck does Gramsci have to do with Yasuke? NorthTension (talk) 14:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

you don't remember the grevince study affair hoax? what some people in Critical Education Theory and the like say the quiet part out loud?

Hellen Pluckrose's new book? MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You are a schizophrenic.

Gramsci has nothing to do with Yasuke.

Like nothing. 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:97C:88A7:39D5:F9E0 (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Do not call someone a schizophrenic again. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree that there are no historical sources that explicitly call him a Samurai - this is a fact. However, it is possible to make inferences - implicit deductions - from the primary sources whether it is likely or not that he held the social classification of Samurai. Theoretically, if you can make a reasonable and fair deduction - evidenced from the historical record - that he probably was a Samurai, it would not be ahistorical to state that he was or that there is evidence to believe that he likely was (although I agree it ought to be clarified that it is by no means undebated - and that the distinction is, by nature, semantic).

What we need to first agree on is what characterises a Samurai of the Sengoku Period - I would suggest that a Samurai was a prestigious military social class 'made up of the well-paid retainers of the daimyō' known for their martial skill and code of conduct ('bushido'). Specifically in the Sengoku period - when Yasuke lived - it is documented that those 'born into other social strata could elevate themselves to the de facto status of Samurai' (this happened with Toyotomi Hideyoshi who whilst born a peasant, died a Samurai and daimyo).

So, now that we have established what a Samurai is and what is required to be able to accurately represent someone as having likely been a Samurai, we must now confront the issue of the likelihood of Yasuke having been a Samurai. We know that Yasuke was made a weapon-bearer by Nobunaga (as he is described as surrendered his sword in Luis Frois' report to Jesuit Society, November 5, 1582) - this implies a significant amount of trust from Nobunaga such that is is unlikely Yasuke would have merely been given the position of a servant. In Matsudaira Ietada's Diary, Tenshō 10, fourth month, 'His Highness [Nobunaga] gave him [Yasuke] a stipend' (in this letter the word fuchi is used which is best translated as a warrier employed with a stipend). The provision of a stipend and Yasuke's classification as a warrior is a differentiating factor between being a servant and a retainer - so we know that Yasuke was at the very least a well paid retainer of the most powerful man in Japan at the time (which would certainly endow him with high social status) and that it was not unheard of in this period for such people to be considered Samurai (at the very least de facto Samurai - as with Toyotomi Hideyoshi). This description of Yasuke matches quite nicely with the definition suggested above for qualifying as Samurai.

The fact is that this argument is, at its core, one about semantics. I, and many other historians, would argue that the evidence described above, especially in the context of the time and what it means for someone to be described as Samurai, would point to the likely fact that Yasuke was considered a Samurai at the time and certainly can be described through looser definitions today as being Samurai. You claim that Yasuke "isn't" a Samurai - but this is an active claim that cannot be proven whilst evidence exists to the contrary which is particularly strong when placed in context.

As a final note (and reminder), being a lower-class born retainer and being a Samurai are not mutually exclusive - one can be both. For example, the Kashindan (an institution of retainers that historians say Yasuke is most likely to have been a member of) became a class of 'salried samurai'. JuliusRoxas (talk) 14:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

We are not supposed to make assumptions. Wikipedia editors aren't historians, and we can't just decide to add our personal deductions to an article about history 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 15:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

this JuliusRoxas is not good. Harmful even.

eh says "he agrees" but then with a big heaping helping of "however" and inferences. which means he doesn't agree at all. they're either malicious or not thinking. both are the same amount of dangerous MisteOsoTruth (talk) 15:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not recall making any assumptions. All I did was present the historical record and that academic consensus on this issue concludes that Yasuke was more likely than not a Samurai. This is not a personal deduction - it is our best attempt at ascertaining the historical facts. Due to the uncertain nature of this, of course you cannot claim it to be fact. But for the sake of maintaining the highest degree of historical accuracy possible, Yasuke should be referred to as someone who was likely a Samurai (again, with the clarification that it is also possible he may not have been due to the very little we know from the primary sources about his life). But the fact remains that what we do have does point to him having been considered Samurai at the time and certainly today due to the looser definition of Samurai that is more commonly used and understood. Remember that words are only useful in the context of their meaning.

"It is important to note that despite popular myth and modern depictions there are no historical writings nor evidence that Yasuke was ever granted the rank or title of samurai, he was never given a fief nor referred to as one in any writings."

Setting aside the biased language of 'It is important to note', the author of the above quote's use of the word 'myth' creates the impression that Yasuke being a Samurai is a widely held but false belief or idea. However, as I have demonstrated above, it is more likely than not (thanks to strong evidence) that Yasuke was a Samurai so this is misleading. The phrase quoted from the article also claims that there are 'no historical writings nor evidence that Yasuke was ever granted the rank or title of samurai' which is untrue again as I demonstrated above (the explicit referral of Yasuke as Samurai is not required for there to be evidence he was one - you could instead say that there is no explicit reference to Yasuke being a Samurai). Furthermore, the latter clause of the quoted phrase states that 'he [Yasuke] was never given a fief' which is also irrelevant as I have outlined in previous comments (it is not a condition for being a Samurai and is again misleading people to believe it is).

I strongly suggest you remove this paragraph and replace it with a more accurate phrase stating that historians generally agree that Yasuke was likely a Samurai, although this is a debated topic. This provides the most historically accurate and informative statement on the issue for readers. JuliusRoxas (talk) 15:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

you literally did and were called out for it. enough of your ai geneated, long winded justifications. you're not helping. you're hurtful and harmful to history MisteOsoTruth (talk) 15:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Provide me with the assumptions I made then. None of my writing is AI generated - I spent quite a bit of time writing everything out and I don't appreciate your slanderous claims. Engaging in ad hominem attacks is a prime indicator of a poor argumentation and fallacious logic. JuliusRoxas (talk) 15:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry Julius but no you cannot just admit "Yea there is no evidence he was a Samurai" and than say "but we should assume he was" no we shouldn't that's accurate, again he existed we all know that he did but he didn't did anything most of the stories of him is just him being with the shogun, meeting people and sometimes being with the shogun's kid, again he did fight ONCE it is clear that happened but those are not reasonable grounds to state something that isn't true.

"However, as I have demonstrated above, it is more likely than not (thanks to strong evidence) that Yasuke was a Samurai so this is misleading."

No you haven't, you tried use Hideyoshi as an example that "people could become Samurai" but you just lied by omission, he wasn't considered a Samurai even tho he helped with the unification of Japan under Nobunaga, it was only when he married One that he obtained that titles because his wife was from a Samurai lineage.

"The provision of a stipend and Yasuke's classification as a warrior is a differentiating factor between being a servant and a retainer - so we know that Yasuke was at the very least a well paid retainer of the most powerful man in Japan at the time"

He was a retainer nobody is denying that the problem is you're trying to load that term so hard to imply he was considered a Samurai he wasn't, he was allowed to carry a Wakizashi most likely because Nobunaga find it amusing that people saw a man of different color carrying a Wakizashi when most wouldn't be able to.

"...that it was not unheard of in this period for such people to be considered Samurai (at the very least de facto Samurai - as with Toyotomi Hideyoshi). This description of Yasuke matches quite nicely with the definition suggested above for qualifying as Samurai."

Again already explained why this Hideyoshi example is not even comparable, and proves that you're either misrepresenting the terms or just misconstruing clear points to build up the narrative that he was believed to be a samurai, he wasn't.

"The fact is that this argument is, at its core, one about semantics. I, and many other historians, would argue that the evidence described above, especially in the context of the time and what it means for someone to be described as Samurai, would point to the likely fact that Yasuke was considered a Samurai at the time and certainly can be described through looser definitions today as being Samurai"

Not really this isn't about "semantics" you're just trying to obfuscate as much as you can so people COULD concede to a point that isn't factual, also historians wouldn't use the things you stated before

"as evidence" that he was a "considered a Samurai" they would tell you he was a retainer which Nobunaga find Fascinating enough to keep him around, Samurai was not only a title but also something you would training for, it was never stated ANYWHERE Yasuke knew how to fight or being adept or a master at the sword, he was claimed by Oda to have a strength of 10 man which is most likely a stretch, considering the Avg. height of a Japanese man would be 157cm during the Edo period, and Yasuke being said to be around 180cm.

"You claim that Yasuke "isn't" a Samurai - but this is an active claim that cannot be proven whilst evidence exists to the contrary which is particularly strong when placed in context."

No, it is proven the only thing that cannot be proven is him even accepting the title "Samurai".

"As a final note (and reminder), being a lower-class born retainer and being a Samurai are not mutually exclusive - one can be both."

No they couldn't as I already explained with Hideyoshi, maybe they COULD'VE been in the Mijin restoration but at that point Samurai's were just a title mostly for politics. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 19:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Roxas that essay provided nothing of substance and is just harmful. you are dangerous MisteOsoTruth (talk) 15:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Saying that being challenged on an issue is 'harmful' or 'dangerous' is incredibly ironic. Also, if you took nothing of substance from my comment, I suggest you actually read it. JuliusRoxas (talk) 15:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be relevant because we don't know for sure. I'm not sure what you're trying to do and I'm not sure why someone with the name of Roxas and their name is trying to lecture me on historical accuracy when they just want something of video games MisteOsoTruth (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I stated that Yasuke having any land or title is irrelevant - whether we know this for sure or not does not change the fact it is has no bearing on whether he can be accurately described as a Samurai. I am not quite sure what your point here is.

My account name on Wikipedia is about as irrelevant to this discussion as whether Yasuke was granted a fiefdom. JuliusRoxas (talk) 02:04, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Mr. Julius, it is my opinion that you have by far won this discussion, although that was surely not the point. It's always great to see an intelligent person not compromise his integrity when having a conversation with someone who is clearly clueless by comparison and most likely has an agenda [even though interestingly enough he is the one to call you out]. The edit wars on Yusuke's page are unfortunately not that new, you should check out the revisions pre 2023-2022. It is however clear that Ubisoft has awakened from its slumber what I could term the videogame industry equivalent to the Guerilla Skeptics. Everyone should look that up, very interesting stuff. ShadowMoon137 (talk) 12:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

don't' shill a YouTube channel. and say "ubisoft has awakened from it's slumber". no they used to remove bows and the like for historical accuracy and now THAT IS LONG GONE.

you sound like an advertisement. This isn't about winning.

We don't need fans. Fans are short for fanatics and such people are seldom if ever at all accurate. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @ShadowMoon137. You are right that winning an internet argument is certainly not the point - neither is the historical accuracy of (or any other grievances @MisteOsoTruth seems to have with) some videogame. What matters is preserving an accurate telling of history and it is my opinion that what is currently presented on this Wikipedia page is damaging to the pursuit of this goal. JuliusRoxas (talk) 15:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

you defended inferences as fact. don't talk to me MisteOsoTruth (talk) 15:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No. I said that a statement on what historians consider to be most likely on this issue (based on valid inferences) is a helpful, informative and historically accurate thing to include on the relevant Wikipedia page. JuliusRoxas (talk) 15:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

opinions don't matter. you're defending ANTI facts. please. stop MisteOsoTruth (talk) 15:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, whether he had any land is irrelevant because Nobunaga and him met for only 15-16 months, whether he bared the title IS relevant because we're talking real history, again facts show him as a retainer and that's what he will not be described as a Samurai as most evidence points to that, I don't understand this sudden obsession because a game is not gonna change history doesn't matter how bad you want it to. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 13:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

oh there we are but he was not samurai. going through this talk page and comments dating decades ago show that the claims for that were... dubious at best

and hopefull Innformer is right. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

RE: Repeated Edits and NPOV

The following paragraph (or similar paragraphs) has been added and removed multiple times:

"It is important to note that despite popular myth and modern depictions there are no historical writings nor evidence that Yasuke was ever granted the rank or title of samurai, he was never given a fief nor referred to as one in any writings. Most of our knowledge of his life comes from these messages written by missionaries and locals"

I'll start of by saying I have not looked at the sources so I can't comment on whether they are reliable or not. Regardless, if this paragraph (or a similar paragraph) is to be included there are NPOV issues that need to be fixed. Placing this paragraph at the top of the Documented life in Japan section gives the paragraph undue weight (WP:UNDUE) and the whole paragraph is written in a critical tone which goes against WP:IMPARTIAL.

Additionally, saying "It is important to note" breaks MOS:EDITORIAL. 130.43.139.154 (talk) 19:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I support the idea that Wikipedia needs to make it clear on the article that there's no evidence that Yasuke was granted the rank of samurai. Many random articles on the internet keep calling him a samurai (probably the effect of him being falsely portrayed as such in modern media). And now many people use those articles as a source to back their claim for political reasons.

If that misinformation keeps spreading, it will become a fact eventually. If just one reliable source starts calling Yasuke a samurai, people will use that as a source to edit it on Wikipedia. Ezio's Assassin (talk) 19:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

私もあなたに同意します。奇妙な空想に合わせた『日本人の歴史と文化』の改訂は、引用可能な情報源としてのウィキリークスの完全性を損なうと同時に、日本（そして日本人）の歴史と文化に対する西側諸国の理解の完全性と信頼性を危険にさらしている。 。

日本の国民と社会は、その歴史の中で起きた出来事や人々を完全に記録することに大きな誇りを持っており、また、日本文化の外にいる人々が日本の歴史を理解できるようにすることも目指しています。

日本の国民と社会は、西側の社会政治的政策によって国民、歴史、文化、理解が汚されることを望んでいません。それによって、かつては誰だったのか、そして私たちは今日どうなっているのかという理解が損なわれます。

I am in agreement with you. The revision of The Japanese People's history and culture, to suit some weird fantasy, is damaging to the integrity of Wikileaks as a citable source, while also endangering the integrity and reliance of western understanding of the history and culture of Japan (and it's people).

The Japanese People and Society take great pride in keeping full account of events and people within it's history, and also aims to help folks outside of Japanese culture to understand our history.

The Japanese People and Society do not wish to have it's people, history, culture, and understandings to be sullied over western social political agendas, which mar the understanding of who were were, and what we are today. ICHIRO SHIWAKU (talk) 20:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikileaks? NorthTension (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not against the article: 1. Acknowledging there's a view/misconception that Yasuke was a samurai, and 2. Stating that the historical evidence does not support the view that Yasuke was a samurai. My objections are with the specific paragraph that was added to the article as it violates the various guidelines I linked to. 130.43.139.154 (talk) 21:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s misinformation to explicitly say he is not. No reputable source says he is not. The unnecessary paragraph saying he is not adds nothing to the article except fuel for racist comments. To add a negative and useless paragraph is not professional, and we know why it was added, because a recent video game with Yasuke as a samurai came out and now many racists online are trying to promote their racist and negative agendas. This paragraph was not on this article 48 hours ago and needs to be removed Mmsnjd (talk) 00:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The absence of evidence is essential to combating misinformation regarding Yasuke’s claimed status as samurai, as stated above. It is not only culturally insensitive to impose western social political values on all players, but a contrived and disingenuous history of Japan.

Poor attempts by racists on twitter to offend others is not a logical basis for outright refuting the inclusion of factual and relevant information. ShineAscent (talk) 03:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not missinformation, Yasuke was not a samurai he was a retainer and that is the most accurate information we have currently from the soruces cited at the bottom, historical facts and accuracy are not "racist" it's not an "unnecessary paragraph because it is rectifying the myth that "he was a samurai" which he was not if you want to fantasies about it go head, but it's not a reality doesn't matter how much you want it be nor is it "racist. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 12:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

fuel for racist comments/ what? how? how is stating a caveat "fueling racism"? Good lord everything is racist these days. even an accent. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It should also be noted that said line was only added on 15:21, 15 May 2024‎ (likely due to racist backlash from the new Assassin's Creed video game reveal). Also deleting said line doesn't categorically make the claim that Yasuke can/should be considered a "samurai" (or the "greatest samurai" like some have claimed I am trying to argue), all it does is remove a statement that Yasuke should categorically not be considered a samurai (meaning that it is something debated by historians). Furthermore the Japanese language wikipedia already lists Yasuke on its foreign born samurai page list https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B5%B7%E5%A4%96%E5%87%BA%E8%BA%AB%E3%81%AE%E6%AD%A6%E5%A3%AB%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7 Theozilla (talk) 20:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yasuke was not a bushi. Therefore, he was not a warrior. End of story. Everything else is a fantasy. 176.116.136.240 (talk) 20:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I am Japanese. You are claiming "likely due to racist backlash" but many Japanese people are bothered by the cultural appropriation and historical revisionism perpetrated by western people regarding this topic. Your offhand dismissal of our concern as "racist backlash" in itself feels very racist, towards the Japanese. 27.84.15.217 (talk) 21:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Except there is evidence that Yasuke fought in some battles. Also if it wasn't racist backlash, why was that sentence only originally added today? Like that isn't a coincidence. And again it's not like my edit claimed that Yasuke was unequivocally a samurai, I objected that it is not warranted to claim that Yasuke was categorically not a samurai as plenty of historians have argued that he was (including Japanese speaking ones, as Yasuke is listed as a foreign samurai on the Japanese language wikipedia). And that's not even mentioning the "It is important to note" editorializing issue opening part of the sentence. If one wanted to add a sentence saying that there is debate among historians over whether Yasuke's status as a retainer/vassal to Oda Nobunaga made him formally (or informally) recognized as a samurai or not, that would be a completely different and not something I would object to including in this entry. Theozilla (talk) 21:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

"Yasuke fought in some battles"... As what, a decorative butler?

Yasuke fought zero battles, aside from maybe getting out of his tatami. At best, he was a koshō ~ a valet. There aren't even any Iaido logs in Onihachiman existing of "Yasuke", let alone armoury reports of holding anything that wasn't merely ceremonial. ICHIRO SHIWAKU (talk) 22:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The article literally states Yasuke participated in battles against Akechi forces after the Honnō-ji Incident with a quote from Luís Fróis. That is certainly more than zero battles. Theozilla (talk) 23:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

they don't care about what japanese people could think of this, they only care about pandering and DEI karma.

Cultural appropriation is cool when it comes from leftist westerns 79.116.127.253 (talk) 06:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That page on the Japanese Wikipedia, ja:海外出身の武士の一覧, does not list foreign-born samurai. That is a list of foreign-born bushi. In historical Japanese contexts, "samurai" and "bushi" are different and distinct categories, albeit with overlap.

Yasuke is not described on that page as samurai, only as bushi. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

He's listed in the same category as William Adams, if referring to William Adams as a samurai is widely accepted, then it seems fair that Yasuke, a kosho, can be categorized as one too. Reputable sources like the Smithsonian Magazine refer to Yasuke as a samurai https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/who-was-yasuke-japans-first-black-samurai-180981416/

The idea of samurai as being a rigid military caste that you *had* to be born into is an invention of the Edo Period. Theozilla (talk) 23:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The consensus on this talk page is that the Smithsonian article is an unreliable source. To quote another user "It is a magazine piece, not a academic one. It cites no sources, no literature, and is written as a pop history piece". 130.43.139.154 (talk) 23:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

"The idea of samurai as being a rigid military caste that you *had* to be born into is an invention of the Edo Period."

Not really. The samurai social class was just that -- a social class. The very word "samurai" originally meant "servant", and this points to their origins as the families close to power that were directly serving the Imperial household. Think of them as the "Old Money" in anglophone contexts. You can be born into an Old Money family, or marry into one, or be adopted into one. But barring these avenues, no matter how rich you might become, you cannot become Old Money yourself.

The Sengoku Period was a time of massive upheaval. Certain people and families were able to reposition themselves socially such that they were able to enter the samurai social class. But this was not a short process, as it involved gaining social acceptance from other established samurai families. Toyotomi's Separation Edict played a part in this process as well, but that Edict didn't happen until 1591, some nine years after Yasuke leaves the historical stage. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that it should be removed. If people wish to convey that he was not a samurai, they can do so while meeting Wikipedia's standards - it is not "important to note" anything, because that is a statement of opinion rather than an accounting of facts. If an impartial way can be found to state that, with reputable sources cited for the claim, such a statement can be added; but until such a time it should be removed. Any discussion of racism, from either side of the issue, is a distraction from the site's standards of practice. Tellmetowrite (talk) 04:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Wrong, it is important to state that he WAS a retainer and not a samurai, from the time he met Nobunaga which was around 1581 from 1582 (when Nobunaga committed seppuku/Harakiri) chronologically there are only TWO fights where he COULD HAVE been which were the "Second Tensho Iga War" which we have ZERO records of him being in, and the Honnō-ji incident there is a record where he """fought ONCE""" (I put the quotes there because the recounting of it by Froi's report in the article doesn't even specify if it was even Yasuke who went to the Nijo castle to "fight" the Akechi's vassals) but in no other records or books is there talks or recounting about him fighting as a Samurai. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 12:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Article fully protected for 3 days

The only alternative would have been blocking the combatants. Settle the matter at the article talk page, and don't bother telling me that I protected The Wrong Version. Favonian (talk) 20:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

トピックの完全性を保護していただきありがとうございます。

私たち日本人は自分たちの歴史と文化を真剣に受け止めており、これには過去の話題も含まれます。

ありがとうございました。

Thank you for protecting the integrity of the topic.

We Japanese people take our history and culture seriously, and this includes the topics of our past.

Thank you again. ICHIRO SHIWAKU (talk) 20:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Hey so if you can speak in English what's the point of writing your post in Japanese above it? And also like it was mentioned prior, all of the Japanese text you say matches up perfectly with the English text if you put the latter into Google Translate. If you're an actual historian can you provide any credentials for such? NorthTension (talk) 00:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

He has none. I have serious doubts he is actually Japanese and is likely trying to portray himself as such because he is bothered Yasuke was portrayed recently as a samurai on a video game trailer Mmsnjd (talk) 00:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Something interesting to note is that Yasuke was already depicted in the anime Hyouge Mono and in the video games Nioh and Samurai Warriors 5, yet for some reason this guy only gets upset when a Western developer puts Yasuke in their game? Really makes you think. NorthTension (talk) 01:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Another thing that just came to me, Yasuke is in a couple of Nobunaga's Ambition games, including one back in 1992. Why is this suddenly an issue now? NorthTension (talk) 01:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, Samurai Warriors also has Ieyasu Tokugawa using a literal cannon-spear, Hideyoshi's wife Nene as a kunoichi, and Kanbei Kuroda as a freaking necromancer using magic. And Nioh had literal demons all over the place and William Adams somehow having a kami as familiar, on top of Hattori Hanzo having a cat clock in his inner pocket. (no, seriously, he whips out a cat and uses it to determine the time of day)

In short, those games took leave of common sense so much, Yasuke's status in them wasn't even close to the most ludicrous or controversial thing. That's probably why most people don't get upset over it - they dismiss it as too ridiculous to take seriously. 151.49.28.145 (talk) 06:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Assassin's Creed also has literal aliens and magic in it, in Mirage you can teleport and stop time; the franchise itself has been taking leave of common sense for a while now. If anything, I feel like what we see of Yasuke as a normal warrior, even if he wasn't a samurai in real life, is much more historically accurate than whatever is happening here.

My point moreso is that this guy's very obviously and poorly trying to paint himself as a "Japanese historian" who for some reason can't apeak proper Japanese (why does he use the phrase "日本の国民" instead of "日本人" when doing his big rant in another post above? "japan's nationals"?) and only seems to care when Ubisoft is doing this right now. NorthTension (talk) 11:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You all are missing the entire point, the page is protected because THIS IS WIKIPEDIA this is not a game people come here to learn about stuff and wikipedians try their best to be as accurate as they can to make sure everything is right or at least supported, if the game is choosing to be historically inaccurate that's fine, but the problem is people BELIEVING or taking it as a FACT that he was a "Samurai" it doesn't matter if some people call him a Samurai they're wrong & it is factually incorrect to call him one, I understand is upsetting to you when people are not just accepting whatever inaccurate narrative you want to push but this is not a "random" place this place has rules and policies to ensure unbiases and accurate information, you can stay upset or go complain about how "racist" Wikipedia is but is not going to suddenly change history or facts. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 12:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

What the hell are you even talking about and to whom, even. NorthTension (talk) 14:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

To all of you bringing up the game, this isn't twitter, it doesn't matter how much you dislike it, Yasuke is not a Samurai, you can go play the game and pretend he was that's fine, is not gonna change anything. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 17:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Yasuke is quite popular in Japan, and almost always depicted as a samurai by Japanese people. Countless games, literature, and media depict him as a samurai in Japan. Here’s just one Japanese YouTube channel that has no issue calling him a samurai.

A famous Japanese YouTube channel, Let’s ask Shogo, with almost 2 million subscribers has a video where he discusses Yasuke as a samurai. The video is titled “The 3 Foreign Samurai Who Are Still Famous and Praised Today” Mmsnjd (talk) 10:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree — I believe the statement was written in English and machine translated to Japanese. "私たち日本人は自分たち" in the Japanese text is unnatural/broken Japanese. SimLibrarian (talk) 04:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I am puzzled by the debate over Yasuke's samurai status.

Matsudaira's record of a meeting in 1582, shortly after Nobunaga's forces destroyed the Takeda clan, leaves no doubt that Yasuke would have been one of the samurai who followed Nobunaga, wearing armor as a samurai. Yasuke was much taller than the Japanese of the time and had a wider field of vision, which should lead us to believe that he was attached to Nobunaga's military service.

There is also a misunderstanding about the status of samurai.

It is incorrect to suggest that Yasuke did not have the status of a samurai because there is no record of him being granted a fiefdom. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was also a shogun of peasant origin.

It was not until the Edo period (1603-1867), after the death of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi, that land and status were guaranteed as samurai status.

I am suspicious of a user named Ichiro Shiwaku who writes in a strange Japanese language. He has obviously machine-translated Japanese from English, and his claim to be a Japanologist is obviously false. We cannot be sure of his intentions, but he is certainly trying to lead the discussion in the wrong direction, so please be careful. Widipedian (talk) 15:25, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Why are you suspicious over the Japanese native?

He didn't do anything that makes one suspect his intentions.

He is simply a historian defending his position. 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:97C:88A7:39D5:F9E0 (talk) 15:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

And I'm the King of England. People can claim anything, that's why we don't take their word as fact & require reliable sources. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Because he doesn't speak Japanese. NorthTension (talk) 18:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Nope, I'm sorry you're just wrong, there is no record of Yasuke accompanying Nobunaga's forces wearing an armour, not only are you not providing evidence or a source for it, you're saying "Yasuke would have been" no, specially considering there is no record of him even being adept at using a samurai sword and considering he was in Japan for like 15-16 months and the theory of him coming from Mozambique, I doubt he had any fighting capabilities, strenght? Sure you can say that Nobunaga's did state he has the strength of 10 man but being strong doesn't equal "good at fighting" or "war" for that matter, sorry. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 19:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 May 2024

The currently saved version has a orphaned reference (rfi). Please replace <ref name="rfi"/> with <ref name="rfi">{{cite web|url=http://www.rfi.fr/hebdo/20150102-yasuke-samurai-samourai-etranger-africain-mozambique-japon |website=Rfi.fr |title=Yasuke: le premier samouraï étranger était africain |date=January 2, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200114161630/http://www.rfi.fr/hebdo/20150102-yasuke-samurai-samourai-etranger-africain-mozambique-japon/ |archive-date=January 14, 2020 |language=fr}}</ref>. Thank you. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 21:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

there a typo in your replacement link WakandaScholar (talk) 08:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: the reference was orphaned by FifteenthClause when they removed a large chunk of text in this edit. I restored the source as it was prior to that edit, it may not line up with your request. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Failed verification from two sources

A paragraph was added today in this section with two Japanese sources. The paragraph reads as:

It is important to note that despite popular myth and modern depictions there are no historical writings nor evidence that Yasuke was ever granted the rank or title of samurai, he was never given a fief nor referred to as one in any writings. Most of our knowledge of his life comes from these messages written by missionaries and locals

However, after cross checking the given Japanese sources here as well as this one, none of them state anything as such. The first source actually said the opposite when I translated it. That is not to say there is evidence that Yasuke was a Samurai. But this paragraph lacks verification from the two sources allocated to it. The sources should probably be replaced with ones that have proper verification or a citation needed tag can be applied to the paragraph. Kwesi Yema (talk) 21:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Both sources are pop-culture online magazines: Waraku Web (https://intojapanwaraku.com/rock/culture-rock/28746/), and HuffPost Japan (https://www.huffingtonpost.jp/entry/yasuke_jp_609347f7e4b09cce6c26a9b2). Neither is a scholarly work, and neither gives much detail on their own sources. Both articles refer readers to Girard and Lockley's African Samurai, which is discussed in threads above and described as not academic and as historical fiction.

In addition, neither magazine defines how they are using the word "samurai". If you read through the earlier threads above, one key issue that comes up is that "samurai" is used more loosely by some writers than by others, particularly in modern contexts. In a loose definition, "samurai" = "any warrior in pre-modern Japan". As defined in historical contexts, that definition better fits the word "bushi", while "samurai" is defined more as "a hereditary class of nobility in pre-modern Japan". Over the centuries, most of that nobility wound up being of the warrior class, but this was definitely a social class, while "bushi" could be someone's job even if they weren't born into, or hadn't married into, the "samurai" class.

See also my earlier comment that is (currently) at the bottom of the Talk:Yasuke#Section_break subsection, including links to other pages better explaining the differences between "samurai" and "bushi". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Because all of it was just added in today. It's editorializing and WP:OR. Mike Allen 01:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Wild, i agree, this paragraph is built on nothing. Why are we including commentary Suredeath (talk) 04:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Unnecessary paragraph needs to be removed

Please remove the paragraph: It is important to note that despite popular myth and modern depictions there are no historical writings nor evidence that Yasuke was ever granted the rank or title of samurai, he was never given a fief nor referred to as one in any writings. Most of our knowledge of his life comes from these messages written by missionaries and locals.

This paragraph was added less than 24 hours ago, on several online platforms, several racist comments have been made over Yasuke as he is depicted as a samurai on a new video game trailer. Discussions and racist remarks have been made about Yasuke and many have linked this paragraph as “proof” he was not a samurai. Many sources have named Yasuke a Samurai, and although this page does not say he is a samurai, this paragraph is completely unnecessary. Never on this article does it mention he is a samurai, but to say he is not is equivalent to saying he is not an astronaut, it’s unnecessary and has promoted more racist comments. Mmsnjd (talk) 23:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Seconded Theozilla (talk) 23:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I third this request, and opine that some efforts should be expended to create a "Status" section in the article listing out the arguments for and against whether Yasuke should be considered a samurai, including an explanation of how a "samurai" is defined in his time. _dk (talk) 23:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Fourthing this. A retainer was still usually a type of Samurai, and the Japanese wikipedia does list Yasuke as a foreign-born samurai. As it stands, this paragraph serves no purpose outside of meaningless culture war bullshit. Arisenby (talk) 00:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you read that correctly. The text on the Japanese Wikipedia talks of bushi, which is explained so on the English Wikipedia: "In modern usage, bushi is often used as a synonym for samurai;[27][28][29] however, historical sources make it clear that bushi and samurai were distinct concepts, with the former referring to soldiers or warriors and the latter referring instead to a kind of hereditary nobility.[30][31]" So one shouldn't rely on translation tools alone. The sourcing for the bushi is left somewhat open too. 87.95.62.110 (talk) 00:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't change the article of a historic figure, to shelter a major gaming studio, who may gets critic from people for a gaming-studio-decision. Even if other people may have the opinion, that the critic would be bad or frame it as racial motivated, this is irrelevant to Yasuke, the historic figure.

Wikipedia, contrary to your own statements here, is build on the pillar of NPOV. Please stop. This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot even be superseded by other policies or guidelines.

Avoid stating your personal opinions (about the motivation of some backlash) as facts.

Prefer nonjudgmental language, even if you want to view by default a opinion of the "other side" in a certain bad-framed way.

You are just bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Dealing_with_biased_contributors

There is a point beyond which our interest in being a completely open project is trumped by our interest in being able to get work done without constantly having to fix the intrusions of people who do not respect our policies. --2003:DF:A72F:9F00:C11B:2E24:1152:C660 (talk) 02:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The Japanese wikipedia page lists Yasuke in the same category as William Adams, if referring to William Adams as a samurai is widely accepted, then it seems fair that Yasuke, a kosho, can be categorized as one too. Theozilla (talk) 02:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

According to Adam’s Wikipedia article:

”The shōgun Tokugawa Ieyasu presented him with two swords representing the authority of a samurai, and decreed that William Adams the sailor was dead and that Anjin Miura (三浦按針), a samurai, was born.”

He also, apparently, lived as a samurai. MWFwiki (talk) 04:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"Fourthing this"

It's sad how Wikipedia is becoming an ideological shithole where facts are changed based on popular vote now.

There is no evidence of Yasuke being a samurai, there's good arguments to be made he wasn't, but you Resetera chuds are trying to paint a reality where he likely was a Samurai. All over a videogame.

If Ubisoft made an Assassin's Creed game set in centre Africa and had a white hero, you'd be first to cry and rally your typical affiliates (Kotaku, Eurogamer, etc) to start a harassment campaign against Ubisoft. Please end this cringe shitshow and accept that Yasuke mist likely wasn't a Samurai. This isn't racist. 178.24.248.195 (talk) 08:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

if you have to say "this isnt racist" you bein racist fool. Its been passed down through oral tradition we have samurai in our black history WakandaScholar (talk) 08:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed), fuck you mean "our black history"??? There will only ever be 1 and only 1 known black "samurai" (again debatable) in Japan. You bozos stop trying to weasel you're way into japanese culture you fucking rats 103.6.150.184 (talk) 08:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

dude its bait 2600:1700:1040:C530:489:4796:A01F:AAFF (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Watch the personal attacks please. Yoshi24517 (mobile) (talk) (Very Busy) 14:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"It is important to note"... WTF? Lifterus (talk) 07:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

•  Done - as far as I could tell, the sources for the "important note" do not support the conclusion stated; they say nothing of the sort. We do not decide what is "important to note" in Wikipedia articles, we repeat information provided by reliable sources and let readers form their own conclusions. The present version of the article does not refer to him as samurai anyway except in the context of fictional depictions, so this disclaimer was unnecessary on its face. If it is in fact "important to note" that Yasuke did not attain the rank of samurai then there will be sources saying so; find them and discuss how to include that information reliably and neutrally. Further edit warring will result in blocks. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

As a retainer, Yasuke was likely a Samurai

According to the below source, a Japanese retainer was usually a samurai. The paragraph saying he wasn’t is not necessary. Please see the below source

https://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/index.php/tour-by-region/oceania/asia/arms-and-armour-asia-133/index.html#:~:text=A%20retainer%20refers%20to%20a,practical%20than%20many%20samurai%20armours. Mmsnjd (talk) 23:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This is irrelevant, because it doesn't mention the article's subject. Jtrainor (talk) 01:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This source is irrelevant. It says that the retainer armor is from 1850 which is over 200 years from when Yasuke served Nobunaga.

Taken at face value, just because the source says that retainers were usually samurai then does not mean that was true during Yasuke's time. Mcclaine5 (talk) 01:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The consensus from the majority of historians is that Yasuke would have been considered a samurai

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/m91cwa/yasuke_african_samurai_is_the_outrage_justified/

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/flgpph/history_of_blackafricans_in_japan/ Theozilla (talk) 02:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Reddit posts are not reliable sources. Jtrainor (talk) 03:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Seconded. Reddit posts are not reliable sources ShineAscent (talk) 04:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

african oral tradition passed down thru the ages speak of samurai heritage, who are you tryna deny these facts? WakandaScholar (talk) 08:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Oral traditions are not reliable sources Stefano1108 (talk) 11:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

oh so our sources arent reliable cause theyre black is that watchu saying WakandaScholar (talk) 11:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Note this is clearly a (likely racist) troll account. Googleguy007 (talk) 17:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) 180.150.38.215 (talk) 07:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Samurai was a specific warrior class with the Bushido code of conduct. While some Samurai were indeed Retainers, far from all Retainers were Samurai.

Only Samurai wore armor like the one on that page. In other words it’s more accurate to call it a Samurai armor, not a Retainer armor, since far from all Retainers wore it. Exclusif66 (talk) 08:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Also something to keep in mind, few primary contemporary to the time sources refer to known and famous samurai as samurai anyway.

Protected edit request on 16 May 2024

Change the paragraph “ It is important to note that despite popular myth and modern depictions there are no historical writings nor evidence that Yasuke was ever granted the rank or title of samurai, he was never given a fief nor referred to as one in any writings. Most of our knowledge of his life comes from these messages written by missionaries and locals.”

This paragraph is completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the article. This paragraph was added less than 24 hours ago following a new video game trailer featuring Yasuke. Some people did not like seeing Yasuke depicted as a samurai and many racist discussions have pointed to this specific paragraph as a reason to portray Yasuke in negative light and promote racist comments. Yasuke was a retainer under Oda Nobunaga. He fought in several battles according to several contemporary sources. This article never states he was a samurai, but this paragraph does nothing more than fuel hateful comments online. Please remove this newly added, unnecessary paragraph. Mmsnjd (talk) 00:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources stating that Yasuke fought in any battles for the 15 month period he served under Nobunaga. Jtrainor (talk) 01:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The current Yasuke wikipedia article literally states Yasuke participated in battles against Akechi forces after the Honnō-ji Incident with a quote from Luís Fróis. While that's technically after Nobunaga's death, it's certainly a source stating he fought in battles. Theozilla (talk) 02:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

give a source on why I should believe you instead WakandaScholar (talk) 08:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak to the general questions around Yasuke but this paragraph definitely needs to be looked at. It's citing to two sources that don't appear likely to meet reliable source standards. What's more, a post on an academic history subreddit here claims that the sources are outright claiming the opposite of what's stated in the paragraph and running them through google translate that appears to be correct. 2601:644:500:C5F0:540E:DB03:7844:2911 (talk) 01:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Very problematic and opinionated paragraph Mmsnjd (talk) 01:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

academic history subreddit.........

I will just point at WP:RS

You are clearly doing WP:DE

A disruptive editor often exhibits these tendencies:

Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editors not only add material; some engage in disruptive deletions as well, e.g. repeatedly removing reliable sources posted by other editors.

Is unwilling or unable to satisfy Wikipedia:Verifiability; fails to cite sources, cites unencyclopedic sources, misrepresents reliable sources, or performs original research. 2003:DF:A72F:9F00:C11B:2E24:1152:C660 (talk) 02:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Seconded. Media misrepresentation has caused a massive influx of misinformation regarding Yasuke’s status. It is essential to note the lack of sources. ShineAscent (talk) 04:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not it “fuels” — in your opinion — “hateful comments” is entirely irrelevant. It is not Wikipedia’s job to police content on the off-chance someone may or may not use it to fuel their beliefs.

Regardless, I don’t think it’s inappropriate in the slightest to clarify that he was not ‘samurai.’ Being uncomfortable with that fact doesn’t make it untrue or ‘bad’ or ‘racist.’ It makes you a revisionist.

Also, Reddit is not a valid source. MWFwiki (talk) 02:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

With respect, while it is true that it is not Wikipedia's place to police content, it is policy to ensure what it says are verifiable. Here it is clear that the sources supplied do not support the statements being made (regardless of whether it is pointed out on Reddit or anywhere else, anyone who is proficient in the Japanese language, myself included, can see that the citations do not say Yasuke was not a samurai.). There is no rule that says a source is needed to remove the offending paragraph - quite the contrary, policy demands the paragraph to be removed in the absence of reliable sources. _dk (talk) 02:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

So the evidence currently shows he was not samurai. Got it. Unless, of course, you have a source that states that he was? Regardless, a vast section of the media is identifying him as such; You don’t feel it’s appropriate that this be addressed? Not directly, but at least with a statement explaining that there is no evidence regarding his status in this regard one way or the other, although he was never explicitly described as ‘samurai.’ Because that’s what the sources say. (Just to be clear; I think the article is fine as-is. I am just against further ‘tweaking’) MWFwiki (talk) 03:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I, as a Wikipedian, cannot say which way the evidence points without seeing the reliable sources that point in either direction. What I am concerned about is sources being used to support statements they don't say. The two sources attached to that paragraph describe Yasuke variously as a "black bushi" (黒人武士), a "black samurai" (黒人侍), and a "samurai of the Oda clan" (織田家の侍) without any attempts to disprove those labels. In any case, given these are pop media sources, they are inadequate to give judgment in either direction. _dk (talk) 03:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Without evidence he was given the title it is illogical to claim otherwise. ShineAscent (talk) 04:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

“…as a Wikipedian, cannot say which way the evidence points without seeing the reliable sources that point in either direction.”

Just leave it at that, then, lol. Do not try to construe the lack of evidence as evidence. That is all most of us are contending. Do you require sources to state that Yasuke was NOT a woman?

The third option, here, is to state in the article that the evidence is contradictory and/or fragmentary , and it is unclear as to whether he was samurai, a high-level retainer, a middling retainer, or what have you. I’m sure there are sources that would support that. MWFwiki (talk) 04:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Are we talking past each other? I am not trying to say Yasuke is a samurai, so I don't know why you're telling me not to construe the lack of evidence as evidence. I want the paragraph gone because the sources used to support it say the opposite of what it is saying. Yes, the third option would be best. _dk (talk) 04:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd argue that there is no evidence either way that he was or was not a samurai, so a statement that he wasn't, without positive proof that he wasn't, is just as inappropriate in a Wikipedia article as one saying he was. DragonBrickLayer (talk) 03:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s fine; But there is a vast section of the media that describe him as ‘samurai.’ Noting he was not is not unusual. To avoid stepping into WP:OP or bias territory, it may be best to simply state “he was not samurai” where appropriate. But it matters not at this point. The Crowd had their hands on it, and The Message must be protected at all costs. (Just to be clear; I think the article is fine as-is. I am just against further ‘tweaking’) MWFwiki (talk) 03:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The person was not using reddit as source for the wiki but to provide support for the idea that sources on the wiki page were misrepresented and not supporting the paragraph in question. Also your commentary here seems not objective at all as you seem to be making assumptions about "the message" and "the crowd" and you say "it is best to simply state "he was not samurai".

I dont know if youre following the discussion here but there is no source that suggests he was explicitly "not samurai", in fact it seems more likely that he was. So no its not appropriate to insert "he was not a samurai" based on one's opinion, just like saying "yes he was samurai".

And how are you saying the article is fine as is under a thread about bad source contradicting a whole paragraph? That paragraph was the tweak made in the last 24 hours. Frozenkex (talk) 03:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

“it seems”

WP:OP, look it over.

“suggests”

WP:OP, look it over.

The lack of evidence is not evidence. Regarding the fact that I am comfortable with the article as-is and support keeping it locked is because I’ve seen what these arguments can devolve into. Articles can become absolute garbage because The Message must be spread.MWFwiki (talk) 04:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You linked to something completely different. It's WP:OR. BrokenSquarePiece ^{(complete me)} 04:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You're arguing against a non-existent argument. Neither op nor myself argued that it should say that he is samurai, but it is not valid to say that he is not. The paragraph is not appropriate and uses invalid sources that arent even consistent with it. It is also not appropriate to say that he is not samurai.

Do you make your comments based on complete understanding of who is considered samurai in this era? Is everyone in this era who is considered samurai fit certain standard or requirement that Yasuke does not? Is Samurai even a title or rank that must be granted in this era to be considered one?

How do you justify yourself suggesting "best to simply state "he was not samurai" ? Where is it appropriate? You are making many assumptions here. Frozenkex (talk) 05:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources saying he was a Samurai, but since he’s often portrayed as such, a paragraph saying “Contrary to popular belief, there is no reliable evidence to suggest Yasuke was a Samurai” would be reasonable. Exclusif66 (talk) 08:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) 180.150.38.215 (talk) 07:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"Important to note that" is a clear violation of WP:MOS, should be removed ASAP. Zinderboff(talk) 13:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Seconded. People keep getting into the weeds of whether the claim itself is correct or not, but the issue is much simpler. This particular paragraph is based on two sources that, according to a number of Japanese-speaking wikipedians (and my own look on Google Translate), not only don't support the idea but flatly contradict it. Neither source particularly feel like RS to me either, so I wouldn't support using them to claim he was a samurai either, even though that would be at least honest.161.29.74.118 (talk) 05:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) use a (Personal attack removed) source to see our african roots was also samurai WakandaScholar (talk) 08:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources saying he was a Samurai, but since he’s often portrayed as such, a paragraph saying “Contrary to popular belief, there is no reliable evidence to suggest Yasuke was a Samurai” would be reasonable, natural and informative. Exclusif66 (talk) 09:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

•  Already done - this is a duplicate of an earlier request which has been implemented. See my comments below that request. I have removed several personal attacks from this thread; if I see any more I will remove the editors making them instead. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 16 May 2024 (2)

Please italicize "Assassins Creed Shadows" (the title of a game) so it is Assassins Creed Shadows. Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 01:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No. It should be made bold to reflect the strength of our people WakandaScholar (talk) 12:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done. @WakandaScholar: please stop adding your personal commentary here, it is disruptive. Wikipedia is not an open discussion forum. If you are not here to contribute constructively you will be asked to leave. Thank you. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Information Sancticty

"As a person who doesn't post or edit on Wikipedia (or much else), I speak for the rest of the internet comfortably. (And that says something)"

This is not a subreddit. This is not Twitter. This is not Facebook. This is Wikipedia. A place that unilaterally is the biggest source of uncapitalized information since the Great Library of Alexandria.

You do not get to bend things to your political view because history is already hard enough to see through every bias of every person that has uttered the name "Yasuke."

When a kid is told to find a "Battle Hero" in 8th grade World History, they don't go to Oda's decrepit looking personal journal or to some long journal from a professor. They come here for the truth. The total truth; of every historian, every ancient translator, every museum with ancient information—all of it, on one page.

I am very disappointed, not at the site Wikipedia, but this community. I mean, I'm not a part of it, most aren't! I mean, who would choose to write endlessly about random topics from Kim K's butt to the tragedy of Chernobyl.

But You are. Every quotation, every italics, every name, date, interest, enemy, and lesson from every mistake or pinnacle of humanity is HERE.

Do not blemish it with your temporary opinions.

[Notice how easy it was to make a paragraph that's truly neutral. TRY IT]

[REAL] Source's:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/who-was-yasuke-japans-first-black-samurai-180981416/

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Yasuke Infopana (talk) 02:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not that simple. Western sources commonly conflate samurai (the hereditary noble class of warriors) with bushi (those who are soldiers or warriors as a job) and generally refer to all of them as samurai. Jtrainor (talk) 03:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It is that simple.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20220603/p2a/00m/0et/026000c Infopana (talk) 03:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Infopana: It's not. Lockley and his books have been discussed above, and his books are not academic, merely popular press, as remarked upon in reviews. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 03:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

ok; so if Britanica and the Smithsonian are too White for you. And a guy who LIVES IN JAPAN and TEACHES JAPANESE HISTORY Isnt official enough. How bout JAPANESE ITSELF?

a "bu-shi" means a "War-Expert."or Warior. Ronin could be considered "Bushi" even though they had no lord.

a "Samurai" is someone who warrior who serves their lord. This decends from the verb "Saburou" which means "to serve" it eventually developed into the noun "Samurai" which means "a person who serves."

THEIR IS NO DISPUTE SAMURAI ARE WARRIORS. And theirs no dispute that Yasuke is a warior. The only question is he serves his lord. Exept, that ISNT a question. Oda himself has said that Yasuke had served him up until Oda was betrayed.(Even then, yasuke escaped instead of betrayal)

Stop arguing semantics, its useless. Infopana (talk) 04:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Infopana: Just because Samurai are warriors, does not mean all warriors are Samurai. Yasuke being a warrior does not automatically mean that he is a Samurai. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 05:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No, BUT SERVING THE FXKING EMPOROR PERSONALY DOES. Infopana (talk) 05:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

However, i did say something wrong. He dident, run like a ronin would. He STOOD AND FOUGHT TILL HE WAS CAPTURED AND SENT BACK TO THE PORTUGUESE. Infopana (talk) 05:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

currently resolving a password issue, thats why the ip, but genuinely, with no malice because emotion in text is notably hard to read, do you have a source that fits wikipedia's standards for this assertion? if so, we could cease this squabbling and put the facts on the paper; yasuke would be a samurai. as an outsider to this debate, i dont see a source for your claims, but god do i want to. 2601:188:CD7E:9760:F39F:2A7E:6620:734 (talk) 05:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

buddy, IT SAYS SO IN THIS WIKIPEDIA PAGE. Infopana (talk) 05:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

why not use a african source, you tryna deny our heritage? WakandaScholar (talk) 08:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, You want a source. How bout KYOTO UNIVERSITY.

https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/71097/1/40_15.pdf

Or Are you gonna make more excuses? Infopana (talk) 06:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Moreover, as a soldier/warrior you were either a part of a clan's Kashindan (standing army), or Ashigaru, peasant militia who were raised as needed. In this time period, if you were part of the Kashindan, as Yusuke had to have been due to his duties, you were considered a samurai. Samurai during the Sengoku Period basically just meant anyone who was a full-time soldier. The idea of samurai as being a rigid military caste that you had to be born into is an invention of the Edo Period. Now, to clarify, samurai clans were indeed aristocratic noble families that you had to be born into. Being a member of a clan's Kashindan did not mean you were a part of the clan, but you did not need to be part of the clan to be a samurai. For example, Toyotomi Hideyoshi was born a peasant, joined Oda Nobunaga's forces as an Ashigaru, was noticed and made a retainer, eventually rising in rank to Nobunaga's sandal-bearer, became one of his generals, and after Nobunaga's death, eventually rose to hold the rank and title of Kampaku (関白, Imperial Regent) and Daijō-daijin (太政大臣, Chancellor of the Realm). No one would question that Toyotomi Hideyoshi was Samurai. DragonBrickLayer (talk) 06:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Full time soldiers were bushi. People conflate being a bushi and being a samurai way too often, but it's like saying any spearman is a knight. There are knights who use spears, sure, but there are also pikemen.

Being a bushi did in no way, shape or form automatically mean you were a samurai. In fact, the reason why Hideyoshi had so much trouble being respected was because his father was a commoner ashigaru with no noble title whatsoever. 151.38.250.10 (talk) 08:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That source doesn't call him a Samurai. Also to clear up any potential confusion, the IP 2601:188:CD7E:9760:F39F:2A7E:6620:734 is not me. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 12:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This isn't Reddit and you don't get upvotes for being combative. Read WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Jtrainor (talk) 05:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No insults have been exchanged. Only evidence of (Personal attack removed). Infopana (talk) 06:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You are acting really emotional about this subject. Adding "fucking" and writing in caps-lock is of no use. You should maybe take a few days off and come back once you can stay calm 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 06:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

True, he is indeed acting (Personal attack removed) like this is Twitter.

(Personal attack removed) 2804:1B3:ADC0:8744:59F2:26E2:A900:B0F1 (talk) 13:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Samurai are warriors but not all warriors are samurais. Knights are warriors as well, does this make every warrior in the 12th century France a knight? Of course, not. Knight is a specific title not every warrior has access to. Same goes to Samurai. That argument is ridiculous and in bad faith 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 06:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Samurai were not appointed in a ceremony like knights. The Sengoku period had a lot of social mobility, and almost anyone who served a lord with a weapon could be deemed a samurai at that time. NotBartEhrman (talk) 07:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Which might or might not have applied to Yasuke which makes the possibility fairly useless as a deciding factor. Since he is not a cat and no primary sources refer to him as a samurai, the side of caution should prevail. Him being a samurai would add nothing to his character or the information presented by this article, other than a mistaken sense of value that only exists in a romanticized modern vision of how samurai are depicted. Yvan Part (talk) 10:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Yasuke's origin inconsistent language

The current page is inconsitent, currently saying "likely of african origin" in the first line, but then in the 3rd paragraph in birth and early life it says "However, there seems to be no doubt that he had African roots" and then in the same paragraph refers to an source where he was described as from india. I reccomend the second quote mentioned be changed to reflect conflicting accounts, using less definitive language LachlanTheUmUlGiTurtle (talk) 03:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

he from the past man language was different back then WakandaScholar (talk) 08:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

『武士』制度に関する記述について／About the description of the "samurai" system

どうやら『アサシンクリード』シリーズに弥助が主人公の一人として登場したことにより、Wikipediaでも記述の是非について論争が起こっているようですね。 主な論点は「奴隷出身の身分であった弥助が武士や侍であったかどうか」であるようにお見受けします。参考までに、日本人としての意見もこちらに提示しておきましょう。

以下の記述は日本版のWikipedia『弥助』のページからの引用です（原文では参考文献も併記されていますが、ここでは省略します）。

本当に彼の肌が黒いことに納得した信長はこの黒人に大いに関心を示し、ヴァリニャーノに交渉して譲ってもらい、「弥助」と名付けて正式な武士の身分に取り立て、身近に置くことにしたと、イエズス会日本年報にあり、信長は弥助を気に入って、ゆくゆくは殿（城主）にしようとしていたという。また、金子拓によると、『信長公記』の筆者である太田牛一末裔の加賀大田家に伝わった自筆本の写しと推測される写本（尊経閣文庫所蔵）には、この黒人・弥助が私宅と腰刀を与えられ、時には道具持ちをしていたという記述があるという。

織田信長は南蛮文化に親しい武将であり、またとても革新的な人物であったと日本では知られています。 また、織田信長の家臣である松平家忠が記した『家忠日記』には、天正10年4月19日（1582年5月11日）付けの記述には、

「上様（信長）御ふち（扶持＝給与）候」

といったものがあります。即ちこれは弥助が扶持を与えられる身分の士官であったことを示しています。

「弥助が正式に侍と扱われたのかは定かではないが、事実上侍と同様の扱い（帯刀の許可や家の所有など）を受けていた人物である」というのが一番真実に近いでしょう。

翻訳ツールは充実しているでしょうから、文意がなるべくそのまま伝わるようにあえてこの文章は日本語のままで投稿します。 Since translation tools are probably well equipped, I am submitting this text in Japanese so that the intent of the text can be conveyed as it is. 240F:10F:5839:1:C46C:152B:C370:883 (talk) 08:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Yasuke was nothing more than a retainer for a daimo.

I'm really disappointed with the way you all agreed to change history because of a videogame. Yasuke was brought from the Portuguese and given to a daimo. He was never called "samurai" because to be one you would need to either marry a samurai, get adopted to a samurai family, or be born into one, neither of them the person known as "Yasuke" did, and you noticed that he dosen't have a family name, like any other person of the period, he's just called "Yasuke,弥助" which means "the black one,” in Japanese. That's it. This is not my opinion i don't even care, this is factual history straight from the primary sources, and all the primary sources made in his life cast a general negative opinion on him, at most just being respectfully treated like an outsider. He was a mere sword retainer for a daimo, for 3 months,and he disappeared from history and alk primary sources after Mitsuhide's siege of Akechi castle. So why arM you picking him as a method to eYlarge him and his story and making it bigger than it was? 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:4001:D069:D6A:8C0F (talk) 08:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

実のところ、侍や武士という身分がルールによって厳格に定められたものであるというアイデアはありがちな誤謬の一つです。

鎌倉時代や室町時代などの中央政権（幕府、朝廷など）が存在するような時代には確かにルールは存在しましたし、江戸時代には「士農工商」で知られるように厳格な身分制度が定められたりもしていますが、戦国時代には武士や侍についての明確な定義は存在しないというのが真実です。

戦国時代については、特定の主君に仕えていなくてもたとえば戦で大きな武功を挙げたりすることで、武士の上位階級である侍と認められていたのです。

そもそも戦国時代というのは日本国内で明確な中央政権が存在するものではなく、言わば「日本」という領地内に無数の国が乱立しているような状況ですから、明確な定義などありえないわけですね。 240F:10F:5839:1:C46C:152B:C370:883 (talk) 08:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

They were rules.

By that logic every slave or farmer is a "samurai" because there is no clear definition of it because there was diferent countries in what's now called "Japan".

Your logic dosen't do anything but obfuscate the fact that yasuke had no family name, and even if he was treated well by nobunaga, no one considered him a "samurai". 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:4001:D069:D6A:8C0F (talk) 08:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

By that logic every slave or farmer is a "samurai" because there is no clear definition of it because there was diferent countries in what's now called "Japan".

実際ほとんどその通りですよ。戦国時代には、農民と武士の間に明確な区別はありません。実際に農民は足軽と呼ばれるような下級武士を兼任したりもしましたし、農民や商人出身とされる戦国武将も実在します（小西行長などがその一例です）。

Your logic dosen't do anything but obfuscate the fact that yasuke had no family name, and even if he was treated well by nobunaga, no one considered him a "samurai".

これについては明確な誤りです。

織田信長の家臣であった松平家忠が記した『家忠日記』には、弥助は下人や年季奉公人のような隷民ではなく扶持もちの士分であったとはっきり書かれています。 240F:10F:5839:1:C46C:152B:C370:883 (talk) 09:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Where, exactly, do we call him a samurai in the article? ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 12:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The article was claiming that, don't gaslight me, i saw it. 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:4001:D069:D6A:8C0F (talk) 12:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

In previous revisions yes, but that has now been removed. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 12:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, there's a word for that. It's called "Samurai". There was a black samurai, get over it. Hawkatana (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Repeating a lie won't make it reality. Provide something to back up your claim or just stop spamming this page with falsehoods 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

We have. Repeatedly. You choosing to ignore it doesn't mean it's not there. Hawkatana (talk) 14:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

How am I deciding to ignore it? I'm here begging you for any source for your claims and still nothing. I have answered to every source I was provided.

Just remember that an ideology built on lies will never last, it's better for you to admit the truth instead of trying to maliciously vandalise Wikipedia articles for whatever you believe in 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

If it won't last, then why do you insist on peddling it? Hawkatana (talk) 14:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"It is important to note that"

Please remove those words, per MOS:NOTETHAT, nothing is important to note in wiki-voice. If it's not important, we don't include it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, this small change is all that needs to be made. Exclusif66 (talk) 09:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That part relativates an earlier part to show that one part is more on the speculative side of things, thus 'it's Important' should stay. 178.24.249.92 (talk) 10:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Might as well remove the whole section right there "[...]he was never given a fief nor referred to as one in any writings [...]" which was not a requirement for being a Samurai during the Sengoku period, neither was being "[...]granted the rank or title of samurai[...]"

This period was marked by the loosening of samurai culture, with people born into other social strata sometimes making a name for themselves as warriors and thus becoming de facto samurai. Rick Lock History (talk) 11:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

In addition, 'A retainer refers to a vassal in feudal Japan, usually a samurai providing military services. This suit dates to around 1850 and although decorative, it is more restrained and practical than many samurai armours.' Rick Lock History (talk) 11:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Rick. Even if there is not a direct primary source stating that Yasuke was a Samurai, The loosening of Samurai culture during the Sengoku period, and the fact that he was a trained guard placed next to Nobunaga would imply that he was likely considered one. With this in mind, it would be most accurate for the page to reflect that although there is no direct evidence to confirm it, there is a strong likelihood that he was. 144.6.63.137 (talk) 14:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"The loosening of Samurai culture during the Sengoku period, and the fact that he was a trained guard placed next to Nobunaga would imply that he was likely considered one"

No there it isn't, it someone also tried years ago to claim "he was assigned to be his seppuku assistance" and the source he cited wasn't even accurate, you're free to provide sources, but this is just speculation and wishful thinking, all for what? a game that has nothing to do with history accuracy? Please give it a rest if you don't have anything to back up he was deemed a Samurai" so far it all points he wasn't, just a turn retainer because Nobunaga liked him. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 18:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Was Yasuke a Samurai and what’s is the common consensus

It seems this who article has come under heavy fighting, and many times pretty racist and dehumanizing remarks, over a man who by historical standards was at the least a respected retainer for Oda, alongside other samurai retainers, to a samurai. The truth is, Yasuke was truly a respected koshō, who served with other samurai koshō for Oda, he saw battle, had to surrender his sword after capture, and revived a stipend as was common among koshō samurai.

There is room for discussion over his status as a samurai, although most articles, journals, and books don’t take issue in calling him a samurai. But we must not ignore why this is controversial now. A certain small group of individuals are frustrated at seeing an African samurai, some for historical reasons and others for personal biases, and many clearly racist by some comments on here.

In Japan, Yasuke is a pretty common figure in anime, literature, and video games. He is almost always depicted as a samurai by Japanese people. This true in video games such as Nioh, or on YouTube such as the popular Japanese channel Let’s Ask Shogo in his videos “The 3 Foreign Samurai Who Are Still Famous and Praised Today”

On this article we should write the truth, and the consensus by most historians and Japanese scholars is that he was likely a samurai. The paragraph saying he is not needs to be removed. At the least it needs to be replaced saying there is current discussion. But it should not say he was not a samurai as that is not consensus among most scholars Mmsnjd (talk) 10:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Cite these supossed scholars.

Appeal to concensus does nothing if you don't actually share who is making this concensus. 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:4001:D069:D6A:8C0F (talk) 10:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Here are some of many articles.

Smithsonian Magazine - This article provides a detailed account of Yasuke’s life and his service as a samurai under Oda Nobunaga. It discusses his possible origins and his unique position in Japanese history as the first Black samurai. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/who-was-yasuke-japans-first-black-samurai-180981416/

Academia.edu - A paper titled “African Samurai: The True Story of Yasuke, A Legendary Black Warrior in Feudal Japan” offers an academic perspective on Yasuke’s life. It explores his journey from Africa to Japan and his role in the service of Oda Nobunaga, providing historical context and analysis.

https://www.academia.edu/116182001/African_Samurai_The_True_Story_of_Yasuke_A_Legendary_Black_Warrior_in_Feudal_Japan

History News Network - An article by Warren A. Stanislaus, a PhD candidate in modern Japanese history, discusses the significance of Yasuke in Japanese history. It provides insights into his impact and the scholarly debate surrounding his legacy

https://www.hnn.us/article/the-significance-of-yasuke-the-black-samurai Mmsnjd (talk) 11:04, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mmsnjd We have already discussed those sources and they were deemed unreliable, but I can discuss them one by one if you wish.

As for the Smithsonian, you can refer to the above discussion "Information Sanctity" where it was deemed unreliable. It is pop press written by a reporter, and not someone who has studied the subject. It also uses Lockley as its source, which has also been discussed twice above, and was also deemed unreliable years ago.

As for your Acamedia article, did you even take the time to read past the title? It's a link to a history books review by Roger W. Purdy. It actually talks about why Lockley's book on the subject is unreliable. He was even quoted in an above discussion as to why we shouldn't use Lockley in this article.

Again, pop press article that uses Lockley as its sole source. Your second link actually is quite useful here because it says why this article should also not be used here, as it uses an unreliable source.

As I said earlier, please provide RELIABLE evidence or don't, but stop spamming a thousand pop articles based on an unreliable book. You are free to contest as to why Thomas Lockley is reliable but that's another discussion, beside the fact you accidentally provided articles claiming the opposite (because you would rather fight your ideological war than actually search for the truth). 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 11:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I am Japanese. Yasuke is not a samurai. He is depicted as one sometimes in fiction because it is entertaining, but that is all. Claiming that it is true is nothing more than racist cultural appropriation. 27.84.15.217 (talk) 11:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

He quite literally was. The historical records of the time explicitly say as such. Also don't lie, that IP address is American. Hawkatana (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"The historical records of the time explicitly say as such"

Then I guess it wouldn't be hard for you to provide any evidence to back up that claim? Otherwise, go spread your lies elsewhere 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The ones explicitly on the page. There, that was the easiest thing ever. Hawkatana (talk) 14:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Amazing. You can't point to anything. I don't know what you try to achieve but any third party reading this can see that you refuse to provide any source but care enough to post multiple times, clearly showing you have no interest in telling the truth (beside also being wrong about the IP address from what I can see) 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

So pointing to evidence... isn't pointing to evidence? I don't think you understand how this works. Hawkatana (talk) 14:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Stop you're cluttering the page, if you have any source cite it please, all information points towards him just being a retainer not a Samurai. If you really want something maybe he could be addressed as a "Bushi" or Warrior but even that seems off due to him only allegedly fighting one time during Honne-ji incident. Otherwise the page will stay stating he was just a retainer, probably after some rework on the sandbox and the trolls get tired. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 14:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"Koshō/koshou" dosen't equal "Samurai".

They are different classifications on the social order that indicate different things. 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:97C:88A7:39D5:F9E0 (talk) 14:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I literally pointed them to the exact place where the evidence is. On that note, don't accuse me of "cluttering the page" when he (and also you) are doing the same thing. Hawkatana (talk) 14:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You didn't put any link, you just kept saying "I pointed it out there" we're not in person saying that isn't even helpful, again if you don't have anything please just leave you already got some of your replies marked as "Unhelpful" because you're just here not doing anything to provide something substantial. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Unhelpful.

The IP address is not American, it belongs to KDDI in Japan. Abandonee (talk) 14:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC) No it doesn't. That's a very blatantly American IP address. Hawkatana (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC) And how did you come to this conclusion? https://whois-referral.toolforge.org/gateway.py?lookup=true&ip=27.84.15.217 https://www.robtex.com/ip-lookup/27.84.15.217 https://whatismyipaddress.com/ip/27.84.15.217 https://db-ip.com/27.84.15.217 https://bgp.he.net/ip/27.84.15.217#_whois https://ipinfo.io/27.84.15.217 Abandonee (talk) 14:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC) I think it's useless to attempt to discuss with @Hawkatana, it will just further clutter the page. They don't seem to care about the truth. They have constantly refused to back any of their claims with any evidence. It's good to counter their lies with a comment to avoid third parties being tricked but any further discussion seems sterile. 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC) The word "lies" is doing some herculean legwork there. Hawkatana (talk) 14:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Well, you can always disprove that by showing those supposed sources at your fingerprint, but you won't. I wonder why 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC) You know, except for the fact that I did. Multiple times, even. Hawkatana (talk) 14:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC) I wish. You're always free to stop lying though. I'm always open on looking at new information if you change your mind 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC) There you go again by using the word "lying" to mean its literal opposite. Hawkatana (talk) 15:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Can you provide any reliable source to back up these claims? This has been discussed many times already and the current consensus here is that there is no evidence of him receiving the title or rank of samurai. You are free to provide things to prove the opposite but you have failed to provide any for now. You can't expect us to rewrite history because you asked nicely.

In Japan, Yasuke is a pretty common figure in anime, literature, and video games. He is almost always depicted as a samurai by Japanese people. This true in video games such as Nioh, or on YouTube such as the popular Japanese channel Let’s Ask Shogo in his videos “The 3 Foreign Samurai Who Are Still Famous and Praised Today”

This is also totally irrelevant. A youtube channel and video games as your source for him being a samurai? Seriously?

On this article we should write the truth, and the consensus by most historians and Japanese scholars is that he was likely a samurai. The paragraph saying he is not needs to be removed. At the least it needs to be replaced saying there is current discussion. But it should not say he was not a samurai as that is not consensus among most scholars

You are free to consult the previous discussions where these claims have been discussed. Yasuke was never referred to as a samurai, no primary source ever mentioned him receiving that title. If you are right though, it shouldn't be hard to find actual relevant papers claiming the contrary, but please avoid sending untrustworthy ones such as entertainment or literary works. If you send actual reliable papers, then we can discuss but you have failed to do so for now. 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 11:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I will look to provide further sources but for clarity, no one is look to “rewrite” history. More than anything, I believe the article would be most accurate without having a very opinionated and lacking credible sources saying boldly that he was not Samurai. As many here have mentioned already, a paragraph saying it’s open to discussion is much more genuine to reality. We can’t ignore the potential reasons why that specific paragraph was written, but moving past that, the genuine truth is that it’s open for discussion and not a conslusive fact that he wasn’t a samauria Mmsnjd (talk) 11:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There is literally only one source we have and he's not called "Samurai" in it.

So, no, you ARE indeed trying to rewrite history. 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:4001:D069:D6A:8C0F (talk) 11:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No there is not literally one. Here are some contemporary sources from the time of Yasuke.

1: Chronicles of Lord Nobunaga (Shinchōkōki)

2: Letter from Luis Frois, April 14, 1581

3: Letter from Lorenzo Mesia, October 8, 1581

4: Matsudaira Ietada's Diary, Tenshō 10, fourth month:

Nineteenth [May 11, 1582]

5: Luis Frois' report to Jesuit Society, November 5, 1582

These are all accounts of Yasuke from that time period. I don’t know what “one” source your are referring to but these are a few contemporary sources. Since you believe there is “one” source I don’t know if you review these contemporary accounts but they all talk about Yasuke, some about the wages he was paid, others of his life with Oda, others of his surrender of his sword. 2603:8080:C400:2162:8057:616F:DC56:73C7 (talk) 11:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

He was talking about Yasuke's title as a samurai which was never discussed in any of the contemporary writings. No one here claims Yasuke did not exist 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 11:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That would be at best a single sentence reading something like "Yasuke might or might not have been a samurai but no sources can confirm or deny that he was." which seems rather superfluous. Yvan Part (talk) 11:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You should provide Japanese historian's opinions,not clearly politicaly biased from people with an agenda like the Smithsonian. 2A02:587:550E:100:693E:B07:E37A:D231 (talk) 11:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That Smithsonian article was also written by a journalist who has no background in studying history. Its only source was Lockley's book on the subject, which was deemed too unreliable for this article years ago. @Mmsnjd actually provided a source backing the claim that book is unreliable, because he has clear ideological motivations, and has no interest in reading the links he provide. 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 11:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Content within the above mentioned sources:

Chronicles of Lord Nobunaga (Shinchōkōki):

2nd Month 23rd Day [March 27, 1581]. A black monk* came from the Christian countries. He looks about 26-7 of age and his entire body black as a cow. He's body is really well-built, and furthermore has the strength of over ten men. The padre brought him here to see Lord Nobunaga.

I'm really grateful to be able to see such rare things among the three countries that's never been seen before, and in in such detail, all thanks to Lord Nobunaga's great influence. 2603:8080:C400:2162:8057:616F:DC56:73C7 (talk) 11:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Letter from Luis Frois, April 14, 1581:

The Monday after Easter, Nobunaga was in the capital, but a great number of people gathered in front of our casa to see the cafre [black slave], creating such a ruckus that people were hurt and almost died from thrown rocks. Even though we had lots of guards at the gates, it was difficult holding people back from breaking it down. They all say if we showed for money, one would easily earn in a short time 8,000 to 10,000 cruzado. Nobunaga also wanted to see him, and so sent for him, so Padre Organtino brought him. With great fuss, he couldn't believe this was the natural colour and not by human means, so ordered him to take off all his clothes above his belt. Nobunaga's sons also called him over, and everyone was very happy. Nobunaga's nephew the current commander of Ōsaka also saw this and was so happy he gave him 10,000 coins. 2603:8080:C400:2162:8057:616F:DC56:73C7 (talk) 11:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Luis Frois' report to Jesuit Society, November 5, 1582:

And the cafre the Visitador [Alessandro Valignano] gave to Nobunaga on his request, after his death went to the mansion of his heir and fought there for a long time, but when one of Akechi's vassals got close and asked him give up his sword, he handed it over. The vassals went and asked Akechi what to do with the cafre, he said the cafre is like an animal and knows nothing, and he's not Japanese so don't kill him and give him to the church of the Indian padre. With this we were a bit relieved. 2603:8080:C400:2162:8057:616F:DC56:73C7 (talk) 11:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is irrelevant to the discussion, we are discussing his rank as a samurai, not if he has existed or not. Please, read carefully the subject before posting.

Beside, you don't need to rewrite your sources here, you can provide a link for everyone to consult. This is just adding unnecessary blot to the discussion. Just provide a link instead of writing every individual letter here. You can write some excerpts of it though. 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 11:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Will do that in the future. Thank you 2603:8080:C400:2162:8057:616F:DC56:73C7 (talk) 11:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Calling everyone racist who demands to stay with the fact that Yasuke by all we know was NOT a samurai is extremely disgusting here on Wikipedia. You can believe whatever you want, but don't challenge differing viewpoints by ad homines.

People take issue with 3 things:

1.) Yasuke being framed as a samurai and changing historical facts, which would create an extremely dangerous precedent (relevant for Wikipedia)

2.) Ubisoft changing the originally plannd story featuring a Japanese hero to using literally the only black person back then, basically erasing Japanese representation. THAT is actual racism, to deny Japanese gamers to play as a Japanese hero ('b-but there's a female Japanese heroine!' - Syndicate, Odyssey and the Viking one had no issue featuring 2 heroes from the setting's country). There probably will now never be an Assassin's Creed-game featuring a Japanese hero. (not relevant for Wikipedia)

3.) The immense hypocrisy from Woke-authoritarians. Had Ubisoft announced a game set in central Africa with a white hero amidst all-black npcs, THEY would be outraged and harass Ubisoft to change the game. (not relevant for Wikipedia)

Since this is Wikipedia, let's focus on 1). We should all be able to agree that it's utmost important to protect facts, even if some people are hurt by that, right? 178.24.249.92 (talk) 11:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Unhelpful

Sounds like you are the person with agenda, as 2 of your points very opinionated and completely irrelevant rants about a video game. We’re discussing history and the article in Wikipedia. I don’t think your personal grief that Yasuke was chosen as a samurai on a video game is not helpful or relevant at all. For all the talks about agendas, this is a very clear example of one 2603:8080:C400:2162:8057:616F:DC56:73C7 (talk) 11:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Thank you for showing us what’s behind your discussion and your agenda. 2603:8080:C400:2162:8057:616F:DC56:73C7 (talk) 11:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC) And it seems like facts might not be your main focus. Since most people that read the facts, as shown by most creíble articles and books on Yasuke, conclude he was a samurai. But I don’t think any facts except for an explicit mention of the word “samurai” would satisfy (it was rare to even attach this title in this period to people, even acknowledged samurai from today) 2603:8080:C400:2162:8057:616F:DC56:73C7 (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC) No, they don't. They call him koshō not "samurai". 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:4001:D069:D6A:8C0F (talk) 11:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC) You are just as ideological as the person you are answering to. You are free to provide any reliable source about him being a samurai. For now, none of you have provided anything beside pop press articles and a book that was discussed here and deemed unreliable years ago. You are free to provide any source but please, read again the discussion here, because the same articles keep being presented and rejected. 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 11:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Yeah, it's almost like zi myself wrote un brackets 'not relevant for Wikipedia'. You're the one pushing an agenda here, friend. 178.24.249.92 (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Yasuke’s Social Status as SAMURAI

Koshō (小姓) and Kashindan (家臣団): Koshō (小姓) refers to attendants in Japan, typically young samurai in training who served high-ranking officials. Their duties often included personal service, such as carrying messages, assisting with daily routines, and providing security.

Kashindan (家臣団), on the other hand, was an institution comprised of the retainers (kashin) of a shogun or daimyo. This institution played a significant role in the feudal hierarchy of Japan, evolving into a distinct class of samurai. Notably, during the Sengoku period, Oda Nobunaga’s kashindan became prominent as a highly organized and loyal group of retainers who contributed to his military and administrative power.

The distinction between koshō and kashindan is essential in understanding historical ranks and roles. For instance, Yasuke, the African samurai who served Oda Nobunaga, is often mistakenly referred to as a koshō. However, Yasuke’s status and the reverence he received suggest he held a more significant position. While there is some debate over Yasuke's exact rank, it is clear he was not a typical koshō nor part of the kashindan. Instead, Yasuke is often celebrated as a samurai and, in some narratives, revered as a demi-god due to his extraordinary presence and service.

Overly simplified: retainer whos not samurai = kosho

Retainer who IS samurai = kashindan

Whether he is or isnt a samurai is up to interpretation. But in my humble opinion i think he MIGHT have been considering he was given land and a ceremonial sword. Is it not clear enough? Prophesized Savant (talk) 12:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Beside the clearly AI generated opening paragraphs, this kind of joke/bait/troll post is really not something that Wikipedia needs. This is just adding unnecessary blot to the talk section. 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 12:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not AI, he's clearly explaining the difference between Koshō and Kashindan and why it's relevant to this topic. 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:4001:D069:D6A:8C0F (talk) 12:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You know what would great? A source. 81.170.216.212 (talk) 12:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25066328 2A0C:5A80:3C04:F400:4001:D069:D6A:8C0F (talk) 12:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see anything relevant to his post in that article. If I missed it, you can always point to the exact excerpt. I doubt there is anything though 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 13:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"Instead, Yasuke is often celebrated as a samurai and, in some narratives, revered as a demi-god due to his extraordinary presence and service."

Does this really look serious to you? What he has written is clearly a troll post. And if it's not, I would love to have a source but I doubt that will happen 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 13:04, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You think it's a troll post? it's hard to tell. and if anything that makes it all the worse.

some people are dead serious with the craziest of lies and i've seen exactly that on other topics. some of them ten years old on this and all the evidence comes to the contrary. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Ill source it you dont worry. Not trolling Prophesized Savant (talk) 13:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

With what? how? and in what narrative?

we're here to deal in facts. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we all know why.

Good lord it's the same reason why critical theorists and Destantis are not liked. And it's for very good reason. people want to fudge up history and facts to suit some sort of purpose. Even if it is for the best intentions, it's still nefarious.

Good intentions lead to a hot hot place. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"The hand that holds the pen writes history."

100% it's nefarious. I bet you this is a battle as old as time. It's just never been as obvious as it is present day. 92.33.159.103 (talk) 14:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Gramsci. Critical race theory.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/24/nytr-d24.html even the world socialist website have spoken out against Critical Theory. and "different ways of knowing".

If you read between the lines of Gramcsi and the other efforts touted by some radicals it will make sense.

there's a reason people rail against a certian W word. or Political correctness because even Zizek calls it out. At least when the traditional jerk tries to censor they just identify what they don't like and who they don't like and put the hammer on them. the second kind guilts you in to compliance. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

and we all know how untrustworthy AIs are. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 13:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I made the 3 first paragraphs go through some AI detection website and got 100% AI while I couldn't break 10% with other comments. This is either a joke or clear malicious intent. 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 13:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

it is weird they're not putting this artical on semi protected. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, the article is protected. I was actually talking about the original comment written by @Prophesized Savant. Most of his post is written by an AI, which is also why he cannot provide any source for his claims 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

yeah unless they provide sources for the second part. they said they could.

but if SOME HOW they're telling the truth i'd LOVE to see it. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

AI is going to be the end of us with how it lies.

Google Gemini being the most notable offender but they're all bad. it's malicious to lie. but if you dare say that Yasuke isn't a samurai or anything then you MUST be against BIPOC.

i keep telling you. there's a reason why people rail against a certain political camp MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

AI does indeed show a clear bias. If you make it take an online political test, it will show a clear bias, which is why it's not a valid source, in addition to the fact it hallucinates facts and informations on many occasions 2A02:2788:1094:8D:E80E:3BD1:F77E:67F6 (talk) 14:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

yep. and people were called insane for it. MisteOsoTruth (talk) 14:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Personal attack warning

I’ve been seeing a lot of personal attacks on this page. Remember to be civil, and watch the personal attacks, and always assume good faith. If I see any more personal attacks on this page, I will go straight to an admin for blocking. Remember, we are all here to contribute. This is a warning. Thank you. Yoshi24517 (mobile) (talk) (Very Busy) 14:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

Hi everyone! Given that the current discussion does not appear to be going anywhere, and has a worse heat/light ratio than an incandescent bulb, may I suggest Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard as a place to have a more calm and productive discussion with the help of third-party volunteer editors? Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 15:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Japanese Documentaries/TV Series that talk about him being Samurai

I dont know if both helps about being sources, but there has two documentaries and TV series, one made by NHK and another by TBS that talks about the links of him being a samurai, TBS one was from 2013 and NHK one was from 2021

Also have a Mainichi Shimbum news article about him around the same time as NHK Documentary Meganinja202 (talk) 15:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Documentaries are not hold to the same ethics or standards to journalism. Any documentary whatsoever is reliable to be used as reference.

This would be the same as using the Netflix documentary over Cleopatra as reliable source because someone's grandma said it so.

They are for entertainment. Unless you believe the Big Foot to be real you probably didn't hold documentaries as reliable in your past as well.

If you whiling to believe that some specific documentary has valuable information you are free to search the sources they used and pass on here. Even better if the source can be traced back to a valuable evidence to this conversation. 2804:1B3:ADC0:8744:59F2:26E2:A900:B0F1 (talk) 16:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Any documentary whatsoever is *not* reliable to be used as reference. 2804:1B3:ADC0:8744:59F2:26E2:A900:B0F1 (talk) 16:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"If you whiling to believe that some specific documentary has valuable information you are free to search the sources they used and pass on here. Even better if the source can be traced back to a valuable evidence to this conversation."

This why i am posting this on first place, so it can lead somehere, as documentaries tend to cite stuffs or have well known scolars on it Meganinja202 (talk) 16:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Was Yasuke LGBTQ+

WP:NOTFORUM. This page is for discussing changes to the article, not speculating. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 17:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
It is highly suspected that Oda Nobunaga was LGBTQ+ (having a relationship with his vassal Mori Ranmaru). Is it too far fetched to think that Oda's attraction to Yasuke was more than platonic? Contemporary descriptions are certainly homoerotic ay a minimum: "The blackness of his body is like that of a bull, and he is healthy and of fine physique. Moreover, he has the strength of more than ten men." RepeatedNodger (talk) 16:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Establish a clear distinction between Bushi and Samurai

For those who don't study Japanese history, it should be established that the Japanese language is highly contextual, where the same kanji symbols can mean different things based off of how they're pronounced as an example. Samurai, Bushi, and Ashigaru are terms that have been used interchangeably in the Japanese language, but they mean different things based off of the context. It would not be fair at all to use modern, loose definitions of "samurai" when they do not apply in its historical usage of the term.

It's already been said in this Talk Page that the concept of bushi and samurai are very distinct, but I don't think it offers enough explanation for those unfamiliar with the system. Therefore I think it should be a mission for Wikipedia to solidify this distinction by using the strict definitions that are based off of the historical tradition of the Japanese nobility during this time.

To be more clear: The warrior aristocratic class known as the samurai began to rise in power with the establishment of the Kamakura shogunate under the Minamoto lineage. Every single clan claims to be a descendant of an imperial lineage, whether it be the Minamoto, Taira, Fujiwara, or smaller noble families like the Tachibana. This goes the same for samurai as well: The most popular example of a peasant becoming a samurai, Toyotomi Hideyoshi well established himself as a trusted retainer of Oda Nobunaga after the Battle of Okehazama and was given many privileges, but Nobunaga had never made him a "samurai". He officially became a samurai when he married his wife One, who came from a Minamoto background.

A "samurai" is not a rank. It is a social class, and there are plenty of examples of lords and samurai, such as Imagawa Yoshimoto, who did not practice martial arts extensively like warriors would typically do. Imagawa Yoshimoto was very well versed with practicing renga poetry and mastering tea ceremony, and spent little time on martial arts.

There seems to be no actual example of a warrior being "promoted" to samurai anywhere; even William Adams could be argued as not actually being a samurai, because he was given the rank of Hatamoto, which is more of a rank than a social status like how a samurai is, and also that the Japanese woman he married was not from any noble lineage (And this is particularly the case following Toyotomi Hideyoshi who ironically made it harder for peasants to rise to the status of samurai). Arguably - unless they have been adopted into a samurai lineage or married someone from that lineage (I can only speak for Yasuke and William Adams, let me know if I'm wrong on others) - "foreign born samurai" have never existed; they were all "bushi".

Fiefdom isn't enough to consider someone a samurai either, jizamurai (name is confusing of course) are land-owning "peasant" warriors, specifically warriors who are NOT samurai, these people were still subjects to samurai above them. If we want to get technical, William Adams would be considered a jizamurai, but not a samurai. It doesn't matter how many privileges you are given, how much you are paid, or how much land you have, you can't be a samurai unless you are part of a samurai lineage.

William Adams is a particular case because from what I know, the Japanese don't seem to care for him either just like they do with Yasuke, at least before 2020. The thing with Yasuke is that he only became mainstream since 2020/2021 which is where all this sparked interest came from, and then the pop articles that claim he was a "samurai" when he was not. Unless there is any proof that Yasuke had married a Japanese noble woman, he cannot and will not ever be considered "samurai", no matter how many battles hes in, the most he can claim is "bushi", same case for William Adams.

The reason why this matters so much is because the Japanese feudal system was obsessed with ancestral claims and ties, and titles that they could claim based off of that. Ieyasu changed his surname from Matsudaira to Tokugawa so he could claim to be a descendant from the Niita clan, a legendary clan that destroyed the Hojo regents and paved the way for the Ashikaga to take control. This was so he could have a stronger claim on the title of Mikawa-no-kami or "Lord of Mikawa [Province]".

The imperial court, despite being weakened during this period, was still very influential and that never really went away; these clans relied on the imperial court to give them these prestigious titles to further their own legitimacy, and sometimes they had to change names, be adopted into influential families (Toyotomi Hideyoshi threatened the Konoe clan of their destruction if they did not adopt him, he did this so he could claim Kampaku, the "Emperor's Chief Advisor" or regent), or make political marriages. The imperial court may not have had military power to back up demands, but they had the de jure legitimacy for it as backed by the Emperor.

The idea that the social structure fell apart during the Sengoku period is blatantly made up. It's simply the result of the conflation of the word "samurai" in place of the word "bushi", which are both synonymous but also distinct in the Japanese language. It is partially the fault of the Japanese language for being a very convoluted language, but it is also the fault of the English language for not recognizing this as such. These words have meanings and cannot be changed to fit a narrative.

Therefore, I ask that it be a mission for Wikipedia to make these two terms distinct in order to establish the true nature of our understanding of Japanese history, much of it is incredibly misunderstood in the English language and this is just one of many examples. Hexenakte (talk) 16:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is interesting, but this is not the article where this should be settled as it's an article about a historical figure, not the terms themselves. I see that Bushi (warrior) is a redirect to samurai, and the Bushi disambiguation page describes bushi as "the Japanese word for 'warrior' often used to refer to Samurai". If you were to post this at Talk:Samurai you would probably get more insightful responses. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Late reply but I did repost it in Talk:Samurai, thanks for the suggestion. Hexenakte (talk) 18:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"The thing with Yasuke is that he only became mainstream since 2020/2021 which is where all this sparked interest came from "

FYI There has lots of stuffs before 2020 that talks about he being samurai or about a black samurai being a thing, as i mentioned few mins ago there has a TBS TV Series from 2013 that talks about Yasuke being a Samurai, there has some books as well, but i was not able to find much beacuse pretty much most of pre-2010 japanese internet is full of lost media and i had foubnd only minor mentions of this material

I wont question about the rest of your point, i just wanted point out that this is not a new thing and predates 2020 stuffs Meganinja202 (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I will reiterate, I was referring to mainstream thought, and it is evident by the activity increase in this talk page since 2021 that it has become more mainstream over time. I was not discrediting any media sources made prior to 2020/2021. Hexenakte (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

A simple glance uptopic will demonstrate that there's been a steady stream of SPAs and anon IPs going back eighteen years now, and almost all of them doing their level best to discredit or downplay this otherwise obscure historical figure. I'm sure I don't need to belabor why they've been so heavily invested in doing so, but it's pretty tiresome. Ravenswing 16:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Yea, its getting tiresome indeed, I had been avoid anything about it, but decided give my two cents beacuse it envolved wiki and want to help so this edit sengoku (can we call this edit war as it?) can finsh as soon as possible

Its just ironic that ja-jp wiki hasnt even close of this being a controversy as it seems to be here Meganinja202 (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

because people oftentimes don't like seeing things that break the norm. This being a perfect example of it. 𝙴𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗𝚊𝚛𝚒𝚌 𝙴𝚗𝚓𝚘𝚢𝚎𝚛 (talk) 18:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is something I would agree with, the problem with the Yasuke page is people were getting upset and getting defensive with the facts that Yasuke wasn't a Samurai, Talking about Williams his role as a diplomat and shogun's advisor arguably put more weight on him as a "Samurai" AND there is an actual book that can assert he got the title of "Samurai" by Tokugawa in this book meanwhile Yasuke's stories bearly have him doing anything meaningful pretty much he just chilled for like 15 months on Japan before the Honno-ji incident or of weight much less any record of anyone naming him a "Samurai" there is a CLEAR difference in these two, the problem here isn't videogames is the facts that need to remain faithfull and accurate, it doesn't matter what some denier wants to believe about a Yasuke was. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 17:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Addendum, sure Samurais became more, for a lack of a better word, political because the infighting in Japan subdued during the Edo period (obviously the battle of Sekigahara happened but it was a transitioning to a more Japan focused in itslef as a country entering the Meijin restoration approx 286 year after) and the Meijin Era where Japan starts to get involve with a few different countries. But in any case the point still stands that it was clear who had the Samurai title. Hopefull Innformer (talk) 17:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The warrior aristocratic class came from nobles, who were not necessarily warriors during the Heian period, and all have ties to Emperors which they claim to be a descendant from. This only came about when the Imperial Court was weakened and the rise of the Kamakura Shogunate which put more importance on warrior rule, so the imperial clans of Minamoto, Taira, and (somewhat) Fujiwara are what determines who is part of this class. I say somewhat because the Fujiwara are closer to becoming court nobles than warriors (and therefore considered more prestigious before the Tokugawa shogunate?), but many samurai clans claim to be a descendant of the Fujiwara so it is not unheard of.

Just to note: the Minamoto claim to have originated from Emperor Seiwa, where clans such as Tokugawa, Ashikaga, and Imagawa claim to be part of; this is considered the most "warrior" of the three. The Taira claim Emperor Kanmu as their origin, with clans such as Oda, Hatakeyama, and Nagao claim. And the Fujiwara claim special imperial rule to have descended from their god Ame-no-Koyane established by Fujiwara no Kamatari, and and was mainly dominated by aristocrat families rather than clans, but clans do claim to be related to the Fujiwara, like Oda, Toyotomi, and Tokugawa most notably. So you can imagine that yes, the nobility part matters a lot in what determines who is a samurai. These aren't particularly the most difficult to achieve since these lineages can be quite large, and you can marry into it, but it is still noble by nature. Hexenakte (talk) 17:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The thing is, there has facts apointing he was close enough with Nobunaga to be considered one, he had books at time pointing how he had faught directly in wars and also faught for his life after the Honno-ji incident, also historical records also show that he was given honour swords by Oda, considered by many a important step to become a samurai.

Most of responses agnaist the "He was a samurai" argument is mostly "He was just a dog that carried a stick around" or some variation of that, this vision is also FAR from truth as historical accounts point that he was very engaged among the Japanese during that time, hell there has even a suposed paint of him fighting sumo, a sport that that time was considered a royalty sport

Lets not mistake, there has pretty much a another side among the "Yasuke Samurai denialism" that only want to straight up force their vision of what they consider "history" to fill a modern political narrative about Japan that is far away from truth and more very akin to the noble salvage at that time. Meganinja202 (talk) 17:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The idea of Yasuke fighting in battles and being given special stipends is irrelevant to his status as a samurai. Material wealth and battle experience is not what determines who is samurai as I already have outlined above, it is first and foremost a social class and that alone. They tend to be skilled warriors, but not always (see Imagawa Yoshimoto). You can theoretically make a general out of a peasant and he would still be considered a non-samurai (see William Adams). There's a reason why Toyotomi Hideyoshi went through great lengths to be adopted into the Konoe family, because without that he would have never gotten the title of Kampaku. These things matter, especially in a feudal context, where claims of ancestry to important and noble figures is everything in a political sense. You cannot simply just rise to the warrior class through battle, you have to be related to the noble lineages that are part of it. There is not a single warrior who rose to the status of samurai for his fighting, it all began with the nobles.

Because of this its extremely inappropriate to refer to Yasuke as a samurai, because he never had the noble ties to become one, whether through adoption or marriage. Hexenakte (talk) 17:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding onto this, the typical way this would go is that if a warrior does become notable through battle, they can use that influence to leverage themselves into a noble family, whether through adoption or marriage. But it hinges on whether they do that or not. They could use military power or wealth to threaten or buy themselves into a family, but again, that relies on them actually making that act, which Toyotomi Hideyoshi did. Hexenakte (talk) 17:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

In this sense i do agree with the attachemnt with royalty, but how about the people that fighted in wars (besides Yauske) and used that armors that people nowadays seems to call as samurai? Isnt the same thing like Shinobi and Ninja, where they had earned a more recent wording and meaning among Westerns and Japanese that is different from what used to be in the past?

The issue here (besides politics) seems to be more about what people nowadays sees a samurai, even if was other person than Yasuke, the debate samurai vs not samurai would continue beacuse of what people nowadays seems what a samurai is or isnt. Meganinja202 (talk) 17:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is unfortunately because of the modern representation and view of what a samurai is, and also the conflation of the terms "samurai" and "bushi" are often merged in the English language. The people saying that Yasuke is not a samurai are correct but for the wrong reasons, being a retainer isn't a reason why he isn't a samurai, it's because he never was part of a noble family. And unfortunately new dictionary definitions like Merriam Webster who now use a more loose definition alongside their secondary definition "a military retainer of a Japanese daimyo practicing the code of conduct of Bushido", this is just wrong, because there was no codified honor code for samurai until the Edo period, and it often varied by clan on what they considered honorable. Not only that but that disregards the most important aspect, the class part.

Just because we have new definitions for these words doesn't mean that changes the historical meaning of the term used in that context. It's why he's never referred to as a samurai in any of the primary sources. They don't even call him a bushi (warrior), they are often very brief and almost insignificant. The only recorded incident where he actually fought is Luis Frois' stating that he fought in Honno-ji but gave up his sword after, where Akechi says his famous words that "[he] is a beast and knows nothing," which most Japanese are familiar with most. This isn't a commentary about race, it's just a statement of the facts of how Yasuke was viewed during his time. There is a similar sentiment held with William Adams, it is apparent that the Japanese were not impressed with the original miniseries of Shogun from the 80s, so this mainly has to do with misunderstanding of what a samurai actually entails. Hexenakte (talk) 18:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

From what you talking, i think that we should use the word "Warrior" or "Sengoku Warrior" instead of Samurai, it fits closely the meaning of Bushi you had been trying to explain, explaining to average reader the difference between a royal fighter and a non-royal fighter

Also use Warrior or variants, instead of Bushi, would avoid the confusion with Bushido Code you had mentioned Meganinja202 (talk) 18:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I think this would be a good start, but I feel like it needs to be more clear that it is "non-samurai" but also not "peasant soldier" like how ashigaru are viewed. Retainer, Bushi, Ashigaru, etc. seem to be insufficient in driving this point, so it needs to be less vague and more concise in my opinion. Hexenakte (talk) 18:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I dont think that retainer should be used (in Yasuke case) since it is often used as way to imply by evil intentioned people to dehumaize/downplay him and imply that he was "only a pet animal that carries sword around", this also wasnt the case

I think that "Warrior" or any similar should be used for the lack of a better term, or at least his millitary rank in Japanese with a article about the rank that shows that he was high ranked even if wasnt propperly a SamuraI and shown why was seem as important and even as "samurai" even if really wasnt

Otherwise, i cant find a alternate middle-ground between the historical vision of what a samurai is with a modern vision of what a samurai is from avg reader Meganinja202 (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no title to go by, since none is mentioned in the primary sources. Attendant would describe him best, since he carried Nobunaga's tools sometimes. Even attendants fought in battles, they are not strictly non-combatative.

Now the issue with actual warriors who do it as a job, the terminology is still problematic if we're not going to use the samurai and bushi distinction. Bushi still means warrior and Samurai is the warrior class, so I still see it causing some confusion. Hexenakte (talk) 19:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

If you were in a clan's Kashindan (which Yasuke was by being a Kosho to Oda Nobunaga), you were considered a samurai. Samurai during the Sengoku Period basically just meant anyone who was in a full-time retainer/vassal/soldier-adjacent position. The idea of samurai as being a rigid military caste that you *had* to be born into is an invention of the Edo Period. Theozilla (talk) 18:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for demonstrating that you cannot read. Please go do your own research and show me any single individual who came from a common/peasant background, became a samurai without joining a noble family, and this must be demonstrated with what word and context the Japanese actually used. They don't exist because the entire Japanese feudal system hinges on the influence of the Emperor and his Imperial Court. That goes for all clans. If it didn't matter, then there would've been no reason to spend so much effort trying to claim descendant from influential noble figures to establish more legitimacy. This is the core aspect of any feudal society, especially demonstrated in Europe as well.

Also on another note, there is not a single primary source that says that Yasuke is a Kashindan, this is made up. There is no primary source that says he is a weapons bearer, this is made up. There is even no primary source that says he is a page, this is made up. There is not a single title listed in any of the primary sources, which by the way, is all listed in the Wikipedia article (that's literally all of them). The only thing mentioned is that he "sometimes carried Nobunaga's tools" without any clarification as to what tools they were, and that he was paid a stipend and given a short sword (a wakizashi most likely). No title mentioned. Even if this weren't the case, it's not sufficient enough to say he is a samurai for the reasons I already stated. Hexenakte (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Please just knock it off already, this page is for discussing the article, not the topic of the article. Nobody cares about the opinions of Wikipedia editors so we don't include editors' opinions in articles. If you want the article to reflect some view then you need reliable sources attesting to said view, not long winded diatribes about why you're really really sure something is true. XeCyranium (talk) 18:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The question here is the terminolgy we should use in the article, it is a important part of what to do with the article right now since it would help sane most of the edit war happening right now Meganinja202 (talk) 18:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

These are not my opinions, I don't know where you see any opinionated statement in what I wrote. If there was actual proof of Yasuke being a samurai I would retract what I say, but there simply isn't. Hexenakte (talk) 19:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The Maeda Clan version of the Chronicles of Lord Nobunaga describes Yasuke as a weapons-bearer, and if he was a weapons-bearer it would be accurate to categorize him as as kosho 小姓. And since many historians consider kosho 小姓 as a type of samurai, then Yasuke can be considered a samurai. Which many historians do. Theozilla (talk) 18:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, this dispute would be pretty easy to clear up if someone would cite the primary source in Japanese. Meeepmep (talk) 19:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This guy went and tracked down the primary source and also gave analyze to the context of the term "stipend" used in the source https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1css0ye/comment/l4bghbu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Theozilla (talk) 19:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, this doesn't even acknowledge the part where you're suppose to be part of a noble family. The terms samurai and bushi are conflated and even many on Japanese subreddits (which I am not using as a source but as an example since you brought it up) demonstrate that samurai and bushi are often used synonymously but they mean different things. Stipends, land, and privileges do not determine samurai status, which you seem to be completely avoiding without any contradictory proof otherwise.

I will ask again, show me a single individual where they became part of the warrior aristocracy class (samurai) without ever joining a noble family, as a peasant or outsider, because you're going to find nothing. English is not enough to understand this, you need to know how the Japanese wrote and contextualize it, which is where this problem stems from. Hexenakte (talk) 19:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Because not all historians agree that the definition of "samurai" is some rigid military caste that you could only either be born (or formally adopted) into and/or marry into, and that said notion is a retroactive invention of the Edo Period. Many historians also argue that the concept of samurai actually predates the concept of samurai clans/families (with the first samurai clans that emerged during the Heian Period being just full time soldiers who became nobles).

To quote the guy who tracked down the primary source:

"Leaving aside the actual fluidity of the word "knight," there was never a formalized requirement of a "samurai-ing" ceremony. At this point in time a samurai was basically anyone who 1) went to war armed and ready to fight and 2) either a) awarded/inherited an estate with enough income capable of supporting at least a family plus hire some followers, b) paid a stipend which was "permanent" (as in not just for the duration of the task) of about that value, or c) had enough property to be some sort of community leader so could be called upon for war. In the mid-sixteenth century the legal privileges of using his family name on official documentations and wearing two swords in public and having these be inheritable would be formalized. But that was many decades past Yasuke's time, and even then things were a lot more fluid than most people realize.

Actual titles were something else entirely, though many samurai of the time liked to self-style said titles, so those not officially recognized and recorded had little value. Looking through the list of names killed at Honnōji and Nijō, like Yasuke most did not have titles (officially recognized or self-styled) or if they did they were not known by the titles."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1css0ye/comment/l4crdq3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

And then as he says here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1css0ye/comment/l4bghbu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Ever since previously people have been arguing with me that "stipend" could be given to anyone, not just samurai, without considering the word’s meaning in Japanese. I have already mentioned how the word was used in Japanese history. Let’s look then specifically at how Ōta Gyūichi, the author of the chronicles, used it. Here are all the other entries that mention the word "stipend" (specifically 扶持), each with link to the exact page of the Shinchōkōki. I will also quote the translation by J. P. Lamers, so this time the translation is academically published.

Shiba Yoshikane in 1553 – son of the previous and soon to be the next de jure lord of Owari, before Nobunaga ran him out of town.

若武衛様は川狩より直にゆかたひらのあたてにて信長を御憑み候て那古野へ御出すなはち貳百人扶持被仰付天王坊に置申され候

Lord Buei the Younger fled directly from his fishing spot on the river to Nagoya, dressed only in a bathrobe, to call on Nobunaga’s help. Accordingly, Nobunaga assigned him a stipend sufficient to maintain a retinue of two hundred men and installed him in the Tennōbō temple.

2. Saitō Dōsan. Recent research suggest this story is inaccurate, but I’m just demonstrating how Ōta Gyūichi uses the word.

斎藤山城道三は元來山城國西岡の松波と云者也一年下國候て美濃國長井藤左衛門を憑み扶持を請余力をも付られ候

The original family name of Saitō Yamashiro Dōsan was Matsunami. He was a native of the Western Hills of Yamashiro Province. One year, he left the Kyoto area for the provinces and called on the help of Nagai Tōzaemon of Mino, who granted him a stipend and assigned auxiliaries to him.

3. Nobunaga remonstrating Ashikaga Yoshiaki in 1573 for not giving out stipend properly.

一 諸侯の衆方々御届申忠節無踈略輩には似相の御恩賞不被宛行今々の指者にもあらさるには被加御扶持候さ樣に候ては忠不忠も不入に罷成候諸人のおもはく不可然事

Item [3] You have failed to make appropriate awards to a number of lords who have attended you faithfully and have never been remiss in their loyal service to you. Instead, you have awarded stipends to newcomers with nothing much to their credit. That being so, the distinction between loyal and disloyal becomes irrelevant. In people’s opinion, this is improper.

...

一 無恙致奉公何の科も御座候はね共不被加御扶助京都の堪忍不屆者共信長にたより歎申候定て私言上候はゝ何そ御憐も可在之かと存候ての事候間且は不便に存知且は公儀御爲と存候て御扶持の義申上候ヘ共一人も無御許容候餘文緊なる御諚共候間其身に對しても無面目存候勸(觀歟)世與左衛門古田可兵衛上野紀伊守類の事

Item [7] Men who have given you steadfast and blameless service but have not been awarded a stipend by you find themselves in dire need in Kyoto. They turned to Nobunaga with a heavy heart. If I were to say a few words in their behalf, they assumed, then surely you would take pity on them. On the one hand, I felt sorry for them; on the other, I thought it would be in the interest of the public authority (kōgi no ontame; sc., to your benefit). So I put the matter of their stipends before you, but you did not assent in even one case. Your hard-heartedness, excessive as it is, puts me out of countenance before these men. I refer to the likes of Kanze Yozaemon [Kunihiro], Furuta Kahyōe, and Ueno Kii no Kami [Hidetame].

4. A samurai captured in 1573 who would rather die than submit to Nobunaga.

御尋に依て前後の始末申上之處神妙の働無是非の間致忠節候はゝ一命可被成御助と御諚候爰にて印牧申樣に朝倉に對し日比遺恨雖深重の事候今此刻歷々討死候處に述懷を申立生殘御忠節不叶時者當座を申たると思召御扶持も無之候へは實儀も外聞も見苦敷候はんの間腹を可仕と申乞生害前代未聞の働名譽名不及是非

When Kanemaki, on being questioned by Nobunaga, gave a rough account of his career, Nobunaga commented that it would be a shame to lose a man with such marvelous accomplishments to his credit and stated that his life would be spared, were he to pledge his loyal service to Nobunaga. To this Kanemaki replied that he had harbored a deep grudge against the Asakura for a long time. Now that so many warriors of standing had been killed, however, he could not permit himself to stay alive by giving vent to his resentment. The moment he was remiss in his loyal service, Nobunaga would surely think that whatever he might have said at this juncture was just an expedient to save his skin and would cancel his stipend. Then Kanemaki would be unable to live with himself and with what people would say about him. He would therefore cut his own belly now. Having made this plea, he took his own life. His heroism was unprecedented, and his glory was beyond dispute.

5. Nobunaga to his own "companions" (think of Alexander’s foot and horse companions) in 1575 because he was feeling generous that day and had just given a bunch of cloth to a beggar and then felt like also rewarding his men who were supposedly moved to tears by the former act of generosity.

御伴之上下皆落淚也御伴衆何れも々々被加御扶持難有仕合無申計樣体也如此御慈悲深き故に諸天の有御冥利而御家門長久にに御座候と感申也

All of Nobunaga’s companions, those of high as of low rank, also shed tears. Each and every one of his companions had his stipend increased, and it goes without saying that they felt fortunate and thankful. It is because Nobunaga was so compassionate, everyone felt, that the heavens shed their blessings upon him and that the fortunes of his house would long endure.

6. Kuki Yoshitaka and Takigawa Kazumasu in 1578 for building big ships.

九鬼右馬允被召寄黃金二十枚並御服十菱喰折二行拜領其上千人つヽ御扶持被仰

Nobunaga summoned Kuki Uma no Jō and presented him with twenty pieces of gold as well as ten garments and two boxes containing wild duck. In addition, Nobunaga rewarded Kuki Uma no Jō and Takikawa Sakon with stipends adequate to maintaining a thousand men each.

7. A young samurai in 1579 for being a good wrestler, since Nobunaga loves wrestling.

甲賀の伴正林と申者年齡十八九に候歟能相撲七番打仕候次日又御相撲有此時も取すぐり則御扶持人に被召出鐵炮屋與四郞折節御折檻にて籠へ被入置彼與四郞私宅資財雜具共に御知行百石熨斗付の太刀脇指大小二ツ御小袖御馬皆具其に拜領名譽の次第也

A man from Kōka whose name was Tomo Shōrin, some eighteen or nineteen years old, showed good skills and scored seven wins. The next day, too, Nobunaga put on sumo matches, and Tomo again outclassed the others. As a result, Nobunaga selected Tomo to become his stipendiary. At about that time Nobunaga had to take disciplinary measures against a gunsmith by the name of Yoshirō, whom he locked up in a cage. Now Tomo Shōrin received the private residence, household goods, and other possessions of this Yoshirō. Nobunaga also gave him an estate of one hundred koku, a sword and a dagger with gold-encrusted sheaths, a lined silk garment, and a horse with a complete set of gear—glorious recognition for Tomo.

8. As part of his order in his newly conquered provinces in 1582, Nobunaga ordered his vassals to hire good local samurai.

一 國諸侍に懇扱さすか無由斷樣可氣遣事

一 第一慾を構に付て諸人爲不足之條內儀相續にをひては皆々に令支配人數を可拘事

一 本國より奉公望之者有之者相改まへ拘候ものゝかたへ相屆於其上可扶持之事

Item [5] Treat the provincial samurai with courtesy. For all that, never be remiss in your vigilance.

Item [6] When the top man is greedy, his retainers do not get enough. Upon succeeding to domains, apportion them to all your retainers and take new men into your service.

Item [7] Should there be any men from your home province who wish to enter your service, investigate their provenance, contact their previous employers, and only then grant them a stipend.

So Ōta Gyūichi used the word from time to time, and it was not a one-off usage. Every single usage of the word stipend by Ōta Gyūichi was, without exception, either giving it to samurai, some of whom were incredibly high ranked, or used in the context of hiring samurai or samurai’s salary. This includes a young sumo wrestler who may or may not have been a samurai, but was definitely hired by Nobunaga as his personal samurai. There is therefore no reason to think Gyūichi was using the term in Yasuke's context any differently. In fact we might even draw a slight parallel to Tomo Shōrin. Yasuke was said to have had the strength of ten men, meaning he must have demonstrated that strength and it’s certainly possible he demonstrated it through wrestling and beating everyone. Nobunaga loved wrestling, loved exotic stuff, and as shown above loved to demonstrate his generosity. So, it would certainly make sense on meeting Yasuke (coincidentally at Honnōji) for Nobunaga to make give Yasuke, who was exotic and might have been good at wrestling, a samurai’s stipend, a decorated sword, and a residence. Incidentally Tomo Shōrin was also at Honnōji when Akechi Mitsuhide attacked, though unlike Yasuke he did not survive. Theozilla (talk) 20:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I trust Lockley's translation, and it does seem he was a retainer. But how can you be certain that he was given the specific rank of "Kosho" from "given a stipend, a private residence, etc., and was given a short sword with a decorative sheath. He is sometimes seen in the role of weapon bearer."? Is this mentioned in any scholarly sources or is it a Wiki editor/online journalists' interpretation. Meeepmep (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

He was mentioned in a primary source with given a stipend, a house, and a short sword (a wakizashi). These things we do know, however they are not conditions for being a samurai. Historians went out of their way to specifically mention that Toyotomi was NOT a samurai despite being a sandal-bearer for Nobunaga, which is actually a prestigious role to have and shows Nobunaga's trust in him. He only became a samurai after marrying his wife, One, who comes from a noble background that claims descent from the Minamoto. Hexenakte (talk) 19:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Please demonstrate due process and actually show these sources, because I have read the Chronicles of Lord Nobunaga, there is nothing there mentioning a title about it. Hexenakte (talk) 19:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Clarification on what "koshō" means in the lead?

I don't want to get into the argument of whether or not he was a "samurai" by some technical definition, but it's beyond dispute he was retained as a "koshō", a term which most Western readers have never heard of. Shouldn't the lead at least clarify what that means beyond a link to the article on "Page". Meeepmep (talk) 18:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I just was thinking on it, maybe we should make a page about Kosho or similar Japanese ranks that he probally could had and start from that Meganinja202 (talk) 19:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It is mentioned briefly that Yasuke was a "page" according to 2 Japanese articles which do not list or source any primary source, so these are unreliable. In the actual primary sources listed (which is all of them that mention Yasuke), there is no mention of a title, so it is not appropriate to call him a Kosho or page. Hexenakte (talk) 19:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It does seem that the JP wiki doesn't use the term 小姓 either. Meeepmep (talk) 19:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's bit sketchy to be throwing around Japanese titles when no scholarly translations or articles refer to him as such. The only source cited that calls him Kosho is in a very short clickbaity article by the "Japaaan" magazine. Meeepmep (talk) 19:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately a lot of these claims are done in bad faith and disregard any form of primary source in favor for their stipulations on what a "samurai actually is", despite showing no understanding of Japanese history themselves. They will continue to use modern sources that don't define or cite anything, like the Britannica or Smithsonian articles. I mean one of them cites the HuffPost. A modern perspective or claim doesn't prove anything, if anything it makes the case look extremely weak. Hexenakte (talk) 19:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)